Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?

[Sniper670]

From what I've seen so far I feel like a lot of the evidence supporting Arceus having all the abilities is reliant on interpreting "power" as moves/techniques/abilities etc even though that's clearly not the case as the word used is "力" which almost always means force/strength/power/energy.

The case here is that the Plates is the origin of their powers and its wielder can use it to achieve the feats of anyone who's sourcing powers from it

Is there any actual explicit example of a Pokemon gaining every ability from having a Plate? Because there are a few examples where it only amps them or changes their type.

No? Because the Rightful bearer of a Plate, Arceus draws from that power and only him

I pointed out that 20% boost was game mechanics supported by the fact you wouldn't see a Pikachu tie a plate to his back to use that.

In fact the anime recently showed what happened if a Pokémon tried to use it. Heatran was corrupted and the Plates reached out to Arceus

Same as manga, as the plates are useless on any Pokémon besides Arceus

 

[Chariot190]

Might be a bit of a deep cut but doesn't Arceus in Conquest's ability function as multiple abilities at the same time? As in I don't remember it's been like 10 years.

 

[Sniper670]

Yep. In Conquest he has multiple abilities via "Omnipotence" and "Omniscience"

Also in the manga Arceus spammed move after move after move, due to changing his type each outside his movepool

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Might be a bit of a deep cut but doesn't Arceus in Conquest's ability function as multiple abilities at the same time? As in I don't remember it's been like 10 years.

If that's true, then he should get the abilities he's shown to have in Conquest. And its still not evidence for him having every pokemon ability in the franchise, as well as the powers of non-pokemon.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I just looked on bulbapedia. Arceus's ability in Conquest, Omnipotence, gives him three distinct abilities: Life Force, Mountaineer, and Instinct.

That in no way says he has access to all abilities.

List of Abilities in Pokémon Conquest

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

 

[Sniper670]

I have no comment on the side series, since I haven't played it myself

Going by the lore, yes all powers originates from the plates and even if we say Arceus doesn't have such Power, we'd still give it to the plates, which would still lead us back to its user and owner, Arecus

So.... I don't really get what op is trying to do here

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also in the manga Arceus spammed move after move after move, due to changing his type each outside his movepool

I have already said it is fine for Arceus to have moves that are outside his movepool. As long as he has been shown to be able to use those abilities or moves in any source material.

The problem is him having moves and abilities on his profile that he has not used or shown to have in any source material.

I have no comment on the side series, since I haven't played it myself

Going by the lore, yes all powers originates from the plates and even if we say Arceus doesn't have such Power, we'd still give it to the plates, which would still lead us back to its user and owner, Arecus

So.... I don't really get what op is trying to do here

Where is it stated that all powers come from the plates? This is already contradicted by the fact the Giants, Creation Trio, and Lake Trio all demonstrated power and ability before the plates even existed.

 

[Sniper670]

I have already said it is fine for Arceus to have moves that are outside his movepool. As long as he has been shown to be able to use those abilities or moves in any source material.

The Plates have all the powers, he's the rightful owner = he gets the powers. It's simple

The problem is him having moves and abilities on his profile that he has not used or shown to have in any source material.

You want him to shown usage of all 600+ moves and abilities

Game Freak says no and puts it in lore to make one statement encompass all things. Which is the fact the Plates determines the abilities of Pokémon = it has their powers as the essence in the plates means so

Where is it stated that all powers come from the plates? This is already contradicted by the fact the Giants, Creation Trio, and Lake Trio all demonstrated power and ability before the plates even existed.

CT are aspects of Arceus.

I'll repeat, do not bring giants into this argument

Your headcanon vs Lore/Anime/Manga

 

[Sniper670]

We're only going in circles.

I've shown you multiple translations going about what it means, to support the fact Pokémon powers come from plates.

Your argument is you want to see Arceus use all 600+ moves before listing it on his profile. Nah, lore says he has it all, on account of his plates, so he'd get everything in the verse.

We don't assume a creator has all powers unless it's mentioned. This is the case for Arceus as the Plates which is the source of the verse powers are fragments of him

Theres no need to see Arceus use Surf because the Plates already encompasses it in lore

 

[InfiniteDay]

Alright it's been a bit, so i'll add up agrees and disagrees (bolded means a member of staff)

Agrees: 7 Regular + 2 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Moritzva, @Rikimarox2, @Purgy, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT)

Disagrees: 6 Regular (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01,

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 1 Staff (@Everything12, Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything)

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Anyways. Closing Arguments, cause I won't repeat myself after this:

Arceus should not get any powers, movesets, or abilities he has not been shown to have in source material.

The justification for him getting these powers is not sufficient.

• "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."
• "It gathers power from the Plates, listening for the flute's song."
• "The being poured the remains of its power into stone and buried it deep."
• "When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate."
• The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."
• A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is.

These statements in no way specifically state that beings in pokemon get all their powers from the Plates. And in fact, this is contradicted by the fact that the Giants, Creation Trio, and Lake Trio all existed before the creation of the Universe and had access to their powers. The Trios had their typings before the plates existed.

These statements more likely refer to the fact that pokemon can boost their abilities by holding the plate, and that Arceus's type changes depending on the type he holds.

 

[Sniper670]

Anyways. Closing Arguments, cause I won't repeat myself after this:

Arceus should not get any powers, movesets, or abilities he has not been shown to have in source material.

The justification for him getting these powers is not sufficient.

• "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."
• "It gathers power from the Plates, listening for the flute's song."
• "The being poured the remains of its power into stone and buried it deep."
• "When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate."
• The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."
• A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is.

These statements in no way specifically state that beings in pokemon get all their powers from the Plates. And in fact, this is contradicted by the fact that the Giants, Creation Trio, and Lake Trio all existed before the creation of the Universe and had access to their powers. The Trios had their typings before the plates existed.

This is in no way contradicted as all these beings are aspects of Arceus, so are the plates.

Your argument is that it is contradiction, when Arceus explicitly mentioned these same powers was what was placed into plates, so there's no contradiction about the fact the powers of Plates are shared across all Pokémon

These statements more likely refer to the fact that pokemon can boost their abilities by holding the plate, and that Arceus's type changes depending on the type he holds.

And there you go inserting headcannon yet again.

Plus, they don't "boost abilities" just 20% increase in AP of attack. Mind Plate For Example

A stone tablet imbued with the essence of psychic energy. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of the Psychic type.

A certain Pokémon like who? Not Pikachu, certainly not Charizard but Arceus is the one who can use the powers on the plates that is shared across the verse.

Supported by the fact that Heatran got corrupted after being merely hit by energy from the plates.

In manga, as soon as Arceus got access to the plates he spammed attack upon attack, each one different from what he can Learn.

 

[hajime]

(sorry for my bad english first) I hope I misunderstood the point, if you're here to argue that arceus can't do poison (example) attacks, don't comment on more pokemon. because arceus is the creator of "everything" in the pokemon universe, so he can even use his damn iron tail. HE CAN DO ANY KİND OF ATTACK BECAUSE HE İS THE CREATOR OF "EVERYTHİNG" İN THE GODDAMN UNİVERSE. If you think Arceus can't use other pokemon's abilities, you think god can't make cars.

 

[Sniper670]

I'm going to bed so I'll leave this here:

• The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."
• "It gathers power from the Plates, listening for the flute's song."
• "The being poured the remains of its power into stone and buried it deep."
• "When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate."
• The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon."
• A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is.

This. Here's what Japanese version says

うまれてくる ポケモン プレートの ちから わけあたえられる
Umaretekuru Pokemon Purēto no chikara wakeataerarer

The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon who come to this world

うまれてくる　ポケモン プレートの　ちから　わけあたえられる
そのもの

The ability of an unborn Pokémon plate to determine
what it is

生まれてくる　ポケモン プレートの力　わけあたえられる

Pokémon born with the power of the plate.

What does this tell us. That's the plates is what determines the powers of Pokémon.

"But Yemma, this is referring to 20% boost in AP...."

No. Because....

"The rightful bearer of a Plate draws from the Plate it holds."

The rightful bearer here being Arceus

There's more

A stone tablet imbued with the essence of all creation. When used on a certain Pokémon, it allows that Pokémon to gain the power of every type there is.

No one but Arceus can use this.

And it's the same across each plate "A specific Pokemon" not the entire lasagna

Plus, the Plates being used besides Arceus isn't even feasible logically. Only Arceus can absorb it and use it. If every Pokémon could use it, Arceus wouldn't have thrown the Essence of all creation on Earth. Volo could've used it to force summon Arceus, since Arceus himself put the remaining of his powers into it
The last time any Pokémon tried to use the plates, it corrupted him. Heatran

In Manga, Arceus spammed move after move after acquiring the plates.

 

[Sniper670]

Alright it's been a bit, so i'll add up agrees and disagrees (bolded means a member of staff)

Agrees: 7 Regular + 2 Staff (@Iamunanimousinthat, @Hasty12345, @Moritzva, @Rikimarox2, @Purgy, @InfiniteDay, @Paul_Frank, @Comicgyal, @DontTalkDT)

Disagrees: 7 Regular (@Yemma670, @Arceus0x, @Chariot190, @Thelastmlg, @The_Pink_God, @JustANormalPerson01, Hajime

Inconclusive/No Opinion: 1 Staff (@Everything12, Agrees with True Form Arceus having everything)

I'm still waiting for DT reply, so his stance is not solid.

 

[hajime]

Those who accept this topic should not comment on pokemon again. search the verse

 

[Hasty12345]

Very interesting behavior from non supporters.

I’ve supported quite a few Pokémon upgrades. I’m not biased, I’m following the evidence.

 

[Robot972]

Heavily disagree with OP FRA

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Disagree FRA.

 

[JoshSSJGod]

Agree FRA

 

[Purgy]

Just to clarify for my own stance, I'm not completely against Arceus having the abilities, I just don't think the evidence is solid enough for it to be a 100% thing, I'm fine with him being listed as possibly having them.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I’ve supported quite a few Pokémon upgrades. I’m not biased, I’m following the evidence.

I was the one that got the galaxy level upgrade, so the biased and non-supporter talk isn't applicable here.

 

[Pikaman]

I hard disagree with the proposals here if my opinion is worth anything

 

[LordGriffin1000]

(sorry for my bad english first) I hope I misunderstood the point, if you're here to argue that arceus can't do poison (example) attacks, don't comment on more pokemon. because arceus is the creator of "everything" in the pokemon universe, so he can even use his damn iron tail. HE CAN DO ANY KİND OF ATTACK BECAUSE HE İS THE CREATOR OF "EVERYTHİNG" İN THE GODDAMN UNİVERSE. If you think Arceus can't use other pokemon's abilities, you think god can't make cars.

Those who accept this topic should not comment on pokemon again. search the verse

Members of this wiki, whether they are supporters or non supporters of a verse have every right to comment on a Content Revision Thread. If they think the OP makes more sense then that's their opinion. You have no right to say who can't comment so please refraim from doing so and simply state that you disagree with the OP and post reasons if you want and be done with it. Also, chill out with all the caps, it's not that serious.

I hard disagree with the proposals here if my opinion is worth anything

Your opinion matters so long as you aren't disagree/agreeing for bias or nonsensical reasons

 

[Zencha9]

Agree with true form having them

 

[Vietthai96]

Those who accept this topic should not comment on pokemon again. search the verse

1. Everyone have right to comment and argue with their opinion, you have no right to tell them to not comment

2. It is the job of verse supporters to present the evidences to convince peoples and defend the points, not forcing other to search for evidences

Edit: Anyway i'm neutral, just please don't bring Swirl of Root or something in

 

[GodlyCharmander]

A. The creation Trio and the Lake Trio existed before the creation of the plates. If all pokemon get their powers and typings from the plates, then this is a paradox because the trios had powers and typings before the plate existed so their typings did not come from the plate.

Silly. The Creation Trio and the Lake Trio are directly created by True Form Arceus, who made the typings into said plates. The claim isn't that the plates are the very foundation of the concept of typing, just that they are responsible for all creation having said types.

B. The plates were infused with the power of Giants, so they are not only Arceus's power. So if your argument that all powers, moves, and abilities come from the plates was true, Arceus still wouldn't get these abilities because the power of the plates isn't completely his.

The plates are fragments of Arceus itself, the power is completely his, and the giants are admittedly too vague to take into account.

C. The phrase, "The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon." is more logically talking about how pokemon get power boosts when they hold the plate. Not that they derive their power from the plates.

"This interpretation is better" isn't a response. The Japanese text is very clear.

"The being poured the remains of its power into stone and buried it deep."

These statements are more leaning to the fact that Arceus changes his type using the plates, something the other pokemon cannot do.

"The statement saying the plates are infused with Arceus' power is leaning to the fact He can change types".
Bonkers logic, it's very clearly making a leap, as the premise and the conclusion do not justify one another.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Silly. The Creation Trio and the Lake Trio are directly created by True Form Arceus, who made the typings into said plates. The claim isn't that the plates are the very foundation of the concept of typing, just that they are responsible for all creation having said types.

if Arceus can create pokemon with typings without the plates why did he create the plates in the first place and have pokemon gain their typings from them if he could do it by himself?

 

[Comicgyal]

"This interpretation is better" isn't a response. The Japanese text is very clear.

I disagree with this, the quote can be interpreted in different ways. The way I see it, saying the plates are shared among Pokémon doesn’t just prove that all their abilities are poured into, or, derived from them. All other quotes don’t seem to support that notion either;

"The rightful bearer of a Plate draws from the Plate it holds." and "The being poured the remains of its power into stone and buried it deep."

To me, the first part is saying that Arceus (the rightful bearer) draws power from the plate he’s using. Which is backed up by the fact that his typing changes depending on the plate he’s using, i.e Judgment. Then the last part is just saying he put his power into them.

The Japanese text aren’t very convincing, and really only support the notion that general power can be drawn from the plates, not verse wide specific abilities.

 

[Dereck03]

1. Everyone have right to comment and argue with their opinion, you have no right to tell them to not comment

2. It is the job of verse supporters to present the evidences to convince peoples and defend the points, not forcing other to search for evidences

Edit: Anyway i'm neutral, just please don't bring Swirl of Root or something in

Not the first time he does it, just look at his comments...

I'm also neutral, will be looking this thread.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

if Arceus can create pokemon with typings without the plates why did he create the plates in the first place and have pokemon gain their typings from them if he could do it by himself?

This would be replied with "Why did he create the Creation Trio if he can make the Universe himself", yadda, yadda, Ad Nauseum. I do not know why he'd do that, but he did.

The plates are fragments of Arceus. If the plates were responsible for the typings, consequentially Arceus was directly responsible for the typings.

 

[Luckyfun]

Sorry if my evidence is incorrect. But pixie plate: "The Original One is in all things" is supporting Arceus is everything including the plates.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This would be replied with "Why did he create the Creation Trio if he can make the Universe himself", yadda, yadda, Ad Nauseum. I do not know why he'd do that, but he did.

The plates are fragments of Arceus. If the plates were responsible for the typings, consequentially Arceus was directly responsible for the typings.

It’s literally not the same.

Arceus created the creation trio as living aspects of the universe: time, space, anti-matter. The creation trio are literal concepts of the universe in pokemon form. They are the universe.

the plates, you want us to beleive arceus gave the creation and lake trio typings, and then created the plates from the universe, imbued them with his and the giants power and hid them away in order to give every pokemon their types? It literally makes no sense and is incoherent.

what’s not incoherent? Arceus created the plates to boost the power of pokemon and to allow himself to change types as will. That is 100% directly supported in the source material.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Sorry if my evidence is incorrect. But pixie plate: "The Original One is in all things" is supporting Arceus is everything including the plates.

I believe what is being argued for is the Arceus' Avatars and the plates not having any of these abilities. The Original One should keep them.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Sorry if my evidence is incorrect. But pixie plate: "The Original One is in all things" is supporting Arceus is everything including the plates.

The full quote is:

“The Original One is in all things. The Original One is nowhere at all.”

 

[GodlyCharmander]

It’s literally not the same.

Arceus created the creation trio as living aspects of the universe: time, space, anti-matter. The creation trio are literal concepts of the universe in pokemon form. They are the universe.

the plates, you want us to beleive arceus gave the creation and lake trio typings, and then created the plates from the universe, imbued them with his and the giants power and hid them away in order to give every pokemon their types? It literally makes no sense and is incoherent.

what’s not incoherent? Arceus created the plates to boost the power of pokemon and to allow himself to change types as will. That is 100% directly supported in the source material.

"Arceus created these hidden plates to boost Pokemon" doesn't make any cohesive sense either.

Also, do we know exactly when the plates were created? I feel like this is important to the matter.

Regardless, you're actually just taking a completely different route from what I said. I never said Arceus purposedly hid the plates so Pokemon could have their types, that doesn't make any sense.
I said the plates are responsible for Pokemon having said types in the Pokemon Universe. They are, again, just fragments of the creator after all.

The Creation and Lake Trio could also simply not have any types before the plates were created, too, and only acquired them afterwards.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The full quote is:

“The Original One is in all things. The Original One is nowhere at all.”

That doesn't debunk the quote whatsoever, this is textbook Omnipresence. This is an extradimensional, omnipresent (in Pokemon) being, "It's in everywhere and nowhere at all" is one of the most common descriptions of omnipresent beings.
True Form Arceus will be keeping his abilities. Avatars and Plates are what you should be arguing for.

 

[Hasty12345]

Why are the supporters sending incomplete quotes? When the opposing side is sending the “rest” of your evidence, it comes across as though there’s intentional misinformation being spread.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Why are the supporters sending incomplete quotes? When the opposing side is sending the “rest” of your evidence, it comes across as though there’s intentional misinformation being spread.

LuckyFun isn't a supporter. Plus, "The Original One is nowhere at all" (which is likely referring to the fact His realm resides outside of reality) is quite literally irrelevant, and does not contradict the first quote.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Also, do we know exactly when the plates were created? I feel like this is important to the matter.

They were created from the shards of the universe. That means the creation and lake trio pre-exist them

Regardless, you're actually just taking a completely different route from what I said. I never said Arceus purposedly hid the plates so Pokemon could have their types, that doesn't make any sense.

It’s what the source material said. Arceus buried the plates.

I said the plates are responsible for Pokemon having said types in the Pokemon Universe. They are, again, just fragments of the creator after all.

Yet, pokemon with types existed before them. They are fragments of the universe, and the giants imbued their power into them, so they are not solely from Arceus

The Creation and Lake Trio could also simply not have any types before the plates were created, too, and only acquired them afterwards.

There is no evidence for this.

That doesn't debunk the quote whatsoever, this is textbook Omnipresence. This is an extradimensional, omnipresent (in Pokemon) being, "It's in everywhere and nowhere at all" is one of the most common descriptions of omnipresent beings.
True Form Arceus will be keeping his abilities. Avatars and Plates are what you should be arguing for.

All I did was complete the quote. Relax.

LuckyFun isn't a supporter. Plus, "The Original One is nowhere at all" (which is likely referring to the fact His realm resides outside of reality) is quite literally irrelevant, and does not contradict the first quote.

The quote is literally a paradox. The second statement contradicts the first one. Arceus’s realm is still a place and isn’t nowheere.