Perfect Chaos upgrade: "Perfection is only found surrounded in Chaos"

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I disagree. The only real valid point is the Sonic Channel statement of using the "full power" of the emeralds, which is valid, except...

• This is talking about Sonic, not Chaos. If taken at face value Chaos is NOT using the full power of the emeralds, just Sonic.
• Feats>Statements. Chaos has no real feats scaling him to people like Solaris. He has other anti-feats, too. Actual events from the games take precedence over secondary material, meaning dismissing the Generations fight for this is a no go.

The other valid point is Otherworld Chaos, mainly that he could've killed Base Sonic. However in your very post you post proof of why he isn't the same as actual Adventure Chaos, meaning we can't really scale him to this. Plus Sonic could still be killed by a full power attack from Chaos if he doesn't block, he died to Mephiles, after-all. You don't need to be super form tier to kill Base Sonic.

Second point doesn't matter if Super Sonic wasn't at full power, since it's talking about the moment only.

Third and fourth don't really matter, too. Metal Overlord is going to be downgraded because he doesn't have proof that he fought Full Power Super Sonic, either. Lightman the same. Emotional empowerement is too vague to say if an enemy is full power Super Sonic tier or not, it's better to rate them by their feats.

I agree with @Theuser789, pretty much. Especially due to the scaling nightmare this would bring about.

 

[JJSliderman]

What we have now is already a scaling nightmare.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

What we have now is already a scaling nightmare.

Ya super sonic would make much more sense if we just scaled him linearly-

 

[Omegabronic]

Ya super sonic would make much more sense if we just scaled him linearly-

Ok, enough, WHAT PART OF DON'T DERAIL Y'ALL DON'T GET?

 

[JJSliderman]

Personally I agree that Perfect Chaos is 1-C yeah

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree with @Theuser789, pretty much. Especially due to the scaling nightmare this would bring about.

Have you read Omega's rebuttals to those points? They were enough to convince me even though I didn't initially agree

Ya super sonic would make much more sense if we just scaled him linearly-

That's not how he works though. We can't just will that into existance just because it would be simpler and more convineant. The emotional empowerment mechanic remains consistant to this day.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

That's not how he works though. We can't just will that into existance just because it would be simpler and more convineant. The emotional empowerment mechanic remains consistant to this day.

I know this is off topic so I'll keep it brief, I've been thinking about it and I really doubt that mechanic as you and Omega are interpretating it would hold up to scrutiny.


Edit: I will say it in Reply to the person speaking to me.

 

[Omegabronic]

I know this is off topic so I'll keep it brief, I've been thinking about it and I really doubt that mechanic as you and Omega are interpretating it would hold up to scrutiny.

..........say it. in. the. general. discussion. thread

i have no interest in revising the Emeralds' main mechanic here........seriously

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

What's the agree to disagree ratio at rn?

 

[Darkmon_cns]

What's the agree to disagree ratio at rn?

I think it's like 3 to 3 or4 to 4 fairly close I think but the only mod to show up is also against.

 

[Robo432343]

I think it's like 3 to 3 or4 to 4 fairly close I think but the only mod to show up is also against.

huh wdym 3 or 4??

this is the agree to disagree ratio coz only staff votes matter

Agree:

Disagree: @Maverick_Zero_X

 

[Darkmon_cns]

huh wdym 3 or 4??

this is the agree to disagree ratio coz only staff votes matter

Agree:

Disagree: @Maverick_Zero_X

They were asking for people in general so I said it was like 3 to 3, or 4 to 4, yes only 1 staff member but that wasn't the question I was answering

 

[Remus1998]

I really hate this.... but I agree

 

[Omegabronic]

Bump

 

[Lou_change]

I am by no means an expert on the topic but I have a few questions.

This is the most straight forward point, in the Sonic Channel Bio it is said that Super Sonic used the Full Power of the Emeralds to fight Perfect Chaos (Translations done by Windii, which i got extra confirmation from @Executor_N0 that it is accurate). aka the emeralds were at their full power

Isn't the full power of the emeralds variable due to being dependent on the emotions and throughts they convert into power?

It is said that Chaos in this state is way too powerful for Super Sonic to harm "No matter how powerful" he is, aka, no matter how much power Sonic draws from the Emeralds, Chaos is simply too durable for him to harm at all with his normal attacks, so he should be > Chaos Emeralds' Full Power since not even that would be enough to harm him without the extra stats amp of a charged attack

note2: For this point, the point isn't him using the Arrow of light, but that it is verbatim stated that Chaos is too powerful to be harmed by Super Sonic, NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL HE IS, therefore, no matter how much Sonic powers up, be it his minimal or Full power, Chaos is simply too superior for Sonic to be able to harm him

I'll admit this might just be me not properly understanding something after the translation, but this doesn't sound like it's talking about how "no matter how strong super sonic became chaos would be stronger," it sounds more like "despite super sonic being incredibly powerful chaos is hard for sonic to harm." I also wonder if it is at all possible chaos's physiology is to blame.

To power up the Chaos Emeralds for his final fight with Perfect Chaos, Sonic channeled his emotions/"heart" with not only his friends, but all civilians of Station Square, which is a similar situations to other accepted Full Power Super Sonic opponents,

Is there a translation somewhere I am missing?

 

[Omegabronic]

I am by no means an expert on the topic but I have a few questions.

Isn't the full power of the emeralds variable due to being dependent on the emotions and throughts they convert into power?

No, their power in general is, they still have a minimum and maximum tho

I'll admit this might just be me not properly understanding something after the translation, but this doesn't sound like it's talking about how "no matter how strong super sonic became chaos would be stronger," it sounds more like "despite super sonic being incredibly powerful chaos is hard for sonic to harm." I also wonder if it is at all possible chaos's physiology is to blame.

nope, Sonic has NPI for Chaos' physiology and he is attacking his physical brain anyway, so physiology isn't to blame here

And no, the statement begins by talking about Chaos' strenght, and then says that "No matter HOW POWERFUL Super Sonic is, it cannot be damaged by ordinary attacks" aka, it doesn't matter if Sonic is at his minimum or maximum power, hr cannot harm Chaos, we know he can interact with Chaos' Phisiology and reach his physical brain, so Chaos' durability being was too high, to the point where Sonic's attacks won't hurt no matter how strong he is as Super Sonic is the only answer here......also wdym "after the translation"? It is already there

Is there a translation somewhere I am missing?

Subtitles

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

No, their power in general is, they still have a minimum and maximum tho


nope, Sonic has NPI for Chaos' physiology and he is attacking his physical brain anyway, so physiology isn't to blame here

And no, the statement begins by talking about Chaos' strenght, and then says that "No matter HOW POWERFUL Super Sonic is, it cannot be damaged by ordinary attacks" aka, it doesn't matter if Sonic is at his minimum or maximum power, hr cannot harm Chaos, we know he can interact with Chaos' Phisiology and reach his physical brain, so Chaos' durability being was too high, to the point where Sonic's attacks won't hurt no matter how strong he is as Super Sonic is the only answer here......also wdym "after the translation"? It is already there


Subtitles

I mean, I don't think water really counts as "non-physical". Water is still physical, so I don't know if that'd help too much. Though attacking one's concept and other abstract stuff would be on the cards.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I mean, I don't think water really counts as "non-physical". Water is still physical, so I don't know if that'd help too much. Though attacking one's concept and other abstract stuff would be on the cards.

Chaos is made of Chaos Energy that happens to have liquid properties, not water.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Chaos is made of Chaos Energy that happens to have liquid properties, not water.

I don't see that anywhere, but maybe I'm missing something? Got a source for that cuz I'm interested?

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Chaos is a water spirit

Of pure Chaos Energy

Album — Postimages

postimg.cc

 

[Lou_change]

No, their power in general is, they still have a minimum and maximum tho

I see

nope, Sonic has NPI for Chaos' physiology and he is attacking his physical brain anyway, so physiology isn't to blame here

I mean he is flying thru chaos's liquid body which should presumably at least slow down the hedgehog

And no, the statement begins by talking about Chaos' strenght, and then says that "No matter HOW POWERFUL Super Sonic is, it cannot be damaged by ordinary attacks"

I don't see how anything said in the actual text that invalidates my interpretation.

Sonic's attacks won't hurt no matter how strong he is as Super Sonic is the only answer here......also wdym "after the translation"? It is already there

Sometimes context is lost in translation words often have more then one meaning I assumed that maybe the original text implied specific definitions for each word

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Chaos is a water spirit

Of pure Chaos Energy

Album — Postimages

postimg.cc

I don't really see anything that says he ISN'T made out of water. Honestly, it could very well just be both chaos energy with water. Either way, it doesn't change all too much, I suppose.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Sense we don't assume sonic's attacks generate heat... um I'm not actually sure if even his 4-A tier should actually be able to "destory" the water, spread it out among the stars? Maybe... but destory it? Idk

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I don't really see anything that says he ISN'T made out of water. Honestly, it could very well just be both chaos energy with water. Either way, it doesn't change all too much, I suppose.

The last scan in the second link says he's made of PURE Chaos energy. By definition, this means his body composition is 0% water, and 100% Chaos energy.

 

[Omegabronic]

I see

I mean he is flying thru chaos's liquid body which should presumably at least slow down the hedgehog

yeah, with the Arrow of Light, a charged attack far stronger than his normal attacks that allows him to damage being comparable to himself and one shots those stronger, so him piercing Chaos' body with it, and yet Chaos' still be standing is.....more proof actually, i will to the OP later

I don't see how anything said in the actual text that invalidates my interpretation.

Your.......interpretation? It still valid for my point, and even by yours Sonic is simply unable to harm Chaos due to the latters durability/power, Sonic is attacking the physical brain anyway, so your interpretation about Chaos' physiology doesn't matter much as the durability of the brain is what matters here, which falls on my earliet statement, due to the brain being physical + Sonic having the NPI to affect Chaos anyway, it must be talking about how durable Chaos' body is, which then circles back to the point in the OP

I mean, I don't think water really counts as "non-physical". Water is still physical, so I don't know if that'd help too much.

Elemental intangibility, being "physical" means nothing, like, try to "damage" a lake by punching it to see what i mean

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Sense we don't assume sonic's attacks generate heat... um I'm not actually sure if even his 4-A tier should actually be able to "destory" the water, spread it out among the stars? Maybe... but destory it? Idk

Energy, in general, typically generates some form of heat.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

yeah, with the Arrow of Light, a charged attack far stronger than his normal attacks that allows him to damage being comparable to himself and one shots those stronger, so him piercing Chaos' body with it, and yet Chaos' still be standing is.....more proof actually, i will to the OP later


Your.......interpretation? It still valid for my point, and even by yours Sonic is simply unable to harm Chaos due to the latters durability/power, Sonic is attacking the physical brain anyway, so your interpretation about Chaos' physiology doesn't matter much as the durability of the brain is what matters here, which falls on my earliet statement, due to the brain being physical + Sonic having the NPI to affect Chaos anyway, it must be talking about how durable Chaos' body is, which then circles back to the point in the OP


Elemental intangibility, being "physical" means nothing, like, try to "damage" a lake by punching it to see what i mean

I already know what you mean, I was just saying water is still physical, just hard to really damage in any real way. Either way, I get it.

 

[Omegabronic]

Energy, in general, typically generates some form of heat.

Not how it works here, needs to be specified in verse, else all energy manip users would have heat manip

But again, Chaos' brain isn't liquid, so this doesn't matter

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Not how it works here, needs to be specified in verse, else all energy manip users would have heat manip

But again, Chaos' brain isn't liquid, so this doesn't matter

I mean, technically any power that would have an aftereffect of something else would give them another power by technicality of a chain reaction, but I'm not disagreeing with you either. Would be annoying having to schizopost for powers that one would theoretically have via a technicality.

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I mean, technically any power that would have an aftereffect of something else would give them another power by technicality of a chain reaction, but I'm not disagreeing with you either. Would be annoying having to schizopost for powers that one would theoretically have via a technicality.

Hey I replied because I thought it was the general discussion thread but it's not, so to put this in short, yes that is factored in no planet level character is under threat from lava level heat by default for example, heat is basically considered a none issue by universeal because the heat created by a punch at that level is basically platonic heat

 

[Lou_change]

Your.......interpretation? It still valid for my point, and even by yours Sonic is simply unable to harm Chaos due to the latters durability/power, Sonic is attacking the physical brain anyway, so your interpretation about Chaos' physiology doesn't matter much as the durability of the brain is what matters here, which falls on my earliet statement, due to the brain being physical + Sonic having the NPI to affect Chaos anyway, it must be talking about how durable Chaos' body is, which then circles back to the point in the OP

My interpretation specifically discussed durability. The idea that chaos being made of liquid would make it harder to harm him was prefaced by an "also" to separate it from the previous idea.

this doesn't sound like it's talking about how "no matter how strong super sonic became chaos would be stronger," it sounds more like "despite super sonic being incredibly powerful chaos is hard for sonic to harm."

If it's meant to be no matter how powerful sonic became does this include the even more powerful forms Sonic got in frontiers Starfall Super Sonic and Super Sonic Cyber? They are still Super Sonic.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

If it's meant to be no matter how powerful sonic became does this include the even more powerful forms Sonic got in frontiers Starfall Super Sonic and Super Sonic Cyber? They are still Super Sonic.

This is some "Infinite would one-shot Solaris" level logic.

 

[Omegabronic]

My interpretation specifically discussed durability. The idea that chaos being made of liquid would make it harder to harm him was prefaced by an "also" to separate it from the previous idea.

aka you agree with my point then? cuz that would still make Chaos' durability 1-C for Super Sonic to not be able to harm him no matter how powerful he is as Super Sonic, he cannot harm Chaos

as said by Pep, Chaos isn't water, he is a spirit made of Chaos Energy, which again, Sonic shows that he can interact normally to harm him, and even so, since we are discussing his very factually not liquid brain, his Liquid body literally does not matter here

If it's meant to be no matter how powerful sonic became does this include the even more powerful forms Sonic got in frontiers Starfall Super Sonic and Super Sonic Cyber? They are still Super Sonic.

they are different forms, evolving from the "hidden" power of Super Sonic via means he had absolutely no way to access during Sonic Adventure, they obviously do not count, meanwhile i showed evidence and statements for Sonic to be at his full power, the statement from Chaos being unable to be harmed by his normal attacks no matter what working as support to confirm the notion that is blatantly stated to us

 

[Lou_change]

aka you agree with my point then? cuz that would still make Chaos' durability 1-C for Super Sonic to not be able to harm him no matter how powerful he is as Super Sonic, he cannot harm Chaos

no matter how powerful he is as super sonic doesn't necessarily mean he is 1-C. Let me try breaking the first part down
"No matter how powerful Super Sonic is, it cannot be damaged by ordinary attacks."
No matter means regardless of
How can refer to the the extent or degree of something
Neither necessarily meaning they are referring to the full extent of the emeralds power.
Super Sonic's power varies, but within canon and side material Super Sonic is consistently considered powerful despite exactly how powerful he is being inconsistent.

The extent of a 4-C super sonic's power is less than the extent of a 1-C super sonic's power.
Is serves as a 3rd person singular present indicative of be. Sometimes used for past and future tense.

Regardless of the (present) extent of Super Sonic's power (which is known to be variable and we aren't given any specific magnitudes of power or comparisons), Super Sonic cannot harm Perfect Chaos.

 

[Omegabronic]

no matter how powerful he is as super sonic doesn't necessarily mean he is 1-C.

This a support point for point 1 blatantly saying that Super Sonic was at his Full Power, therefore this interpretation, which is perfectly possible, is in lign with other statements and is suported by point 3......why are you so hyperfocused on a single point and ignoring all the rest?

Let me try breaking the first part down
"No matter how powerful Super Sonic is, it cannot be damaged by ordinary attacks."
No matter means regardless of
How can refer to the the extent or degree of something
Neither necessarily meaning they are referring to the full extent of the emeralds power.

Super Sonic's power varies, but within canon and side material Super Sonic is consistently considered powerful despite exactly how powerful he is being inconsistent.

He is powerful yes, but it varries, now, here i know it isn't varrying due to blatant statements of Full Power and the means which he went Super, so purely for entertaining this notion........how does that negate the statement? Even if it wasn't confirmed to be his full power, which in this case very blatantly IS, you understanding that he varies knows the most simple interpretation of the statement, that no matter how strong Super Sonic is, Chaos is too durable to harm

The extent of a 4-C super sonic's power is less than the extent of a 1-C super sonic's power.

there is no such thing as 4-C Super Sonic, the minimum of his power is 2-C

Is serves as a 3rd person singular present indicative of be. Sometimes used for past and future tense.

Regardless of the (present) extent of Super Sonic's power

Also, the Empowerment is still at work as he transformed, by this logic what is stopping from going Full Power to be able yo easily deal with Chaos? Hint, he is ALREADY ay full power, hence why he needs the Spear of Light, a charged attack historically only ever used against Full Power Super Sonic opponents that allows him one shot those comparable and damage those far superior to him, to even damage Chaos........like, ignoring the blatant Full Power statement.....which dk why you are doing, even the phrase as you describe still mean that Sonic, regardless of how much he raises his power, cannot harm Chaos at all with regular attacks due to how durable he is, therefore even his full power wouldn't work

(which is known to be variable and we aren't given any specific magnitudes of power or comparisons)

we.....LITERALLY ARE GIVEN BOTH OF THOSE, with all due respect have you READ the OP? Point 1 and 3 of it are LITERALLY a specific magbitude of power statement and a blatant comparison

Super Sonic cannot harm Perfect Chaos.

are you going to address the other points of the OP? Isolating 1 point when there is 4 in the OP is not helping your case, at all

 

[Lou_change]

there is no such thing as 4-C Super Sonic, the minimum of his power is 2-C

I could have sworn that was a thing at some point and when I was looking at the chaos emeralds powers to double check how their abilities work I saw high 4-C. I should have looked at the ap section and I should have double checked sonic my bad.

This is the most straight forward point, in the Sonic Channel Bio it is said that Super Sonic used the Full Power of the Emeralds to fight Perfect Chaos

The same page says super sonic is sublight speed.

The way Metal Overlord, accepted as 1-C currently, achieved his power was via copying Perfect Chaos' data. which combined with the fact that it also cannot be harmed at all by Super Sonic unless he uses a charged combined attack with Tails and Knuckles

I mean he also copied everyone else something Eggman felt was important enough to mention

Eggman saying that even with the Emeralds they will need a miracle to beat him, makes it clear that they are fighting a Peak Super Form opponent.

I mean reading the subtitles Eggman refers to them as the stones that summon miracles. He says the chances are slim even with the emeralds. That said the plan for defeating Metal involved multiple base form characters this also all happened before what I understand to be the completion of the transformation into Metal Overlord from Metal Madness.

To power up the Chaos Emeralds for his final fight with Perfect Chaos, Sonic channeled his emotions/"heart" with not only his friends, but all civilians of Station Square, which is a similar situations to other accepted Full Power Super Sonic opponents,

The cheering in the background are the citizens I assumed that was just background music or something? All that seems to be said is sonic used positive emotions to transform.

While true, given the evidence above for Chaos to be Peak Super Form tier/1-C, we can easily discard this as an outlier, Chaos should be able to easily destroy Sonic with one attack..........which is said in the series itself, in Otherworldly comedy it is said that if Chaos hits base Sonic at all, which is a Sonic after Generations where he fought Chaos, Sonic would have died and that Super Sonic, accepted as using his Full Power here, could barely dodge attacks from these Chaos, and no, this isn't a hypotetical "Modern Perfect Chaos" this is a World Eggman created where, in Sonic Adventure, he was able to control Chaos completely, aka this is Adventure Era Perfect Chaos from a world recreating these events

"The runaway disaster that once submerged Station Square. The “God of Destruction,” who wanted to ruin everything indiscriminately, further attacked Sonic with an energy breath that could pierce mountains. Eggman rattled on in a good mood.

“This is the world where I have Chaos under my control and everything has gone well! By defeating you and making this other world ‘original,’ my ‘otherworld conquest’ will be complete!”

I mean just because it is a recreation of events doesn't mean Chaos has to be just as strong. You go on to suggest they are weaker

considering how both the OG Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic are powered by the same thing, the Chaos Emeralds, this comparison becomes even more clear. so no, Chaos wasn't as strong as he should be due to not having "heart" to fuel his Chaos Energy to its true potential

So why couldn't they actually be stronger?

Perfect Chaos is a Chaos Energy user. Chaos Energy is displayed and accepted to rely on emotions to show their true power, which is something that Super Sonic comments Perfect Chaos lacks before he explains why he can deal with them so easily to Eggman.

Sonic says he can tell it is fake because it lacks heart even if it copied Chaos's hate which was what Chaos explicitly used to fuel the transformation. The reason he says it's power is a sham because it is just a collection of energy. He doesn't say it is weaker at any point.

 

[Omegabronic]

The same page says super sonic is sublight speed.

.....your point? how does that negate the blatant statement? why are you bringing up completely unrelated things to this discussion?

I mean he also copied everyone else something Eggman felt was important enough to mention

all of them are 4-B..........he brought up cause that is what he did, Chaos was the only one important enough for him to mention by name, given emphasis in his doing for why MO will be so strong

I mean reading the subtitles Eggman refers to them as the stones that summon miracles. He says the chances are slim even with the emeralds.

yeah.......why repeat what i said again? they needed a miracle even with them to beat MO, btw MO is ALREADY 1-C, so arguing against his rating here is kind of useless as i will not shift this thread into a downgrade one

That said the plan for defeating Metal involved multiple base form characters this also all happened before what I understand to be the completion of the transformation into Metal Overlord from Metal Madness.

yeah, they were buying time for Sonic to charge up the Emeralds to transform and be able to take on MO when he finished transforming

The cheering in the background are the citizens I assumed that was just background music or something? All that seems to be said is sonic used positive emotions to transform.

"Seems"? "We care about Sonic and he cares about us, that(aka, the feeling between everyone there for Sonic and vice versa) kind of heart...can create tremendous power"........yeah, it is very explicit that it was all of these people's feeling fueling the emotional Empowerment of the Emeralds at the time, it is like......explicitly said as much

I mean just because it is a recreation of events doesn't mean Chaos has to be just as strong. You go on to suggest they are weaker

don't simplify and remove context of my words, please, it is the same Chaos from the adventure era, the only reason he wasn't as strong is purely because of lacking emotions, not because Eggman's Eggfield wasn't able to recreate the events....as he clearly did, also, them being weaker supports my point there even further.......hence why i used it, so you would be agreeing with me here by bringing this up

So why couldn't they actually be stronger?

are you........trolling? you just said i am arguing they are weaker.....via showing clear evident of it being stated and logically being as such.......HOW COULD THEY BE STRONGER?

Sonic says he can tell it is fake because it lacks heart even if it copied Chaos's hate which was what Chaos explicitly used to fuel the transformation.

no, this was not copied, where are you getting this information from? it is explicitly said that it has no "heart" aka, no emotions......what you are speculating goes against what is said in the story

The reason he says it's power is a sham because it is just a collection of energy. He doesn't say it is weaker at any point.

........have you read the OP at all?

considering how both the OG Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic are powered by the same thing, the Chaos Emeralds, this comparison becomes even more clear. so no, Chaos wasn't as strong as he should be due to not having "heart" to fuel his Chaos Energy to its true potential

without a "heart" Chaos Energy cannot display their power, you are directly going against something accepted for like.....more than a decade here

plus, let us assume he is just as strong......that also supports my point, soooo


also why did you ignore my previous answer to you?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ehhh I'll remain neutral for now

 

[Lou_change]

.....your point? how does that negate the blatant statement? why are you bringing up completely unrelated things to this discussion?

It shows the page contains inaccurate information

all of them are 4-B..........he brought up cause that is what he did, Chaos was the only one important enough for him to mention by name, given emphasis in his doing for why MO will be so strong

Eggman doesn't even specify Perfect Chaos and didn't metal sonic get that data from Chocola and Froggy. Eggman doesn't name drop everybody because it's quicker then listing 12 names and gets the same point across.

yeah.......why repeat what i said again? they needed a miracle even with them to beat MO, btw MO is ALREADY 1-C, so arguing against his rating here is kind of useless as i will not shift this thread into a downgrade one

Mainly because I like being a smartass and you phrasing it as the people using the miracle rocks that make miracles happen need a miracle to happen. I wonder if they could use the things that grant miracles to make that happen. I know Metal Overlord is 1-C I also read that people have considered downgrading him after shadow generations so if MO's rating is in question I feel that might be important at some point later on.

yeah, they were buying time for Sonic to charge up the Emeralds to transform and be able to take on MO when he finished transforming

Eggman said Metal Sonic was invincible back when Metal was only Metal Madness, Eggman made it clear he thought the situation was so bad at the moment that odds of success were slim even with the emeralds. Team Sonic then proceeded to beat the even stronger Metal Overlord

"Seems"? "We care about Sonic and he cares about us, that(aka, the feeling between everyone there for Sonic and vice versa) kind of heart...can create tremendous power"........yeah, it is very explicit that it was all of these people's feeling fueling the emotional Empowerment of the Emeralds at the time, it is like......explicitly said as much

Who is we? Tails just seems to be talking about himself, Knuckles, Amy, and Birdie/Gamma. We don't even see any one else.

don't simplify and remove context of my words, please, it is the same Chaos from the adventure era, the only reason he wasn't as strong is purely because of lacking emotions, not because Eggman's Eggfield wasn't able to recreate the events....as he clearly did, also, them being weaker supports my point there even further.......hence why i used it, so you would be agreeing with me here by bringing this up

Sonic says “Eggman. That’s not the Chaos I know, that’s a fake. He may have had ‘hatred’ at the time, but he had the ‘heart.’ But this Chaos has nothing.” The fact sonic specifically says chaos may of had hate back when he destroyed the city, before saying he also had heart. Context suggests he has hate given sonic distinguish

also why did you ignore my previous answer to you?

I don't think I am

are you going to address the other points of the OP? Isolating 1 point when there is 4 in the OP is not helping your case, at all

we.....LITERALLY ARE GIVEN BOTH OF THOSE, with all due respect have you READ the OP? Point 1 and 3 of it are LITERALLY a specific magbitude of power statement and a blatant comparison

You told me to address other points and I did I guess I could talk about this point that confused me a little:

Also, the Empowerment is still at work as he transformed, by this logic what is stopping from going Full Power to be able yo easily deal with Chaos?

Where would he get more emotions to power himself up? Can he just will himself stronger or something?


Also this technically.

could have sworn that was a thing at some point and when I was looking at the chaos emeralds powers to double check how their abilities work I saw high 4-C. I should have looked at the ap section and I should have double checked sonic my bad.

 

[Omegabronic]

It shows the page contains inaccurate information

......no? All calculations and speed ratings we have here are purely battleboarding fan stuff, they do not matter for the creators of the series as they do not care or know about it at all

Plus.......you do realise that 1 minor piece of information that is not even related to the statement in question doesn't prove that the statement in question is also innacurate, right? Specially with so many other solid proofs showing it to be accurate

So again, why did you bring up a completely and utterly unrelated quote that has nothing to do with what is being discussed?

Eggman doesn't even specify Perfect Chaos and didn't metal sonic get that data from Chocola and Froggy.

But it obviously would be PC for it to be given so much emphasis, specially since something would need to make MO go to Super Levels of power, copying a bunch of base forms obviously wouldn't work

Eggman doesn't name drop everybody because it's quicker then listing 12 names and gets the same point across.

And yet he specified Chaos arbitraraly for no reason? Even tho by your logic all others would be just as important? Makes no sense to me

Mainly because I like being a smartass and you phrasing it as the people using the miracle rocks that make miracles happen need a miracle to happen.
I wonder if they could use the things that grant miracles to make that happen. I know Metal Overlord is 1-C I also read that people have considered downgrading him after shadow generations so if MO's rating is in question I feel that might be important at some point later on.

again, i WILL NOT derail this thread with a "Supposed" dowgrade, take it elsewhere

Eggman said Metal Sonic was invincible back when Metal was only Metal Madness, Eggman made it clear he thought the situation was so bad at the moment that odds of success were slim even with the emeralds. Team Sonic then proceeded to beat the even stronger Metal Overlord

no, Eggman was talking about MO, not MM, hence why he specified the Emeralds as their only chance and all of the teams needed to buy time for team Sonic to use said emeralds

btw this is my last response to "MO should be downgraded" points, again. STOP DERAILING THE THREAD, if people want to downgrade it, let them do a thread, for now MO is 1-C via solid reasonings and that is that

Who is we? Tails just seems to be talking about himself, Knuckles, Amy, and Birdie/Gamma. We don't even see any one else.

Did you not saw all the people in station square cheering Sonic on? That's "we" as Tails says the phrase in response to the people cheering Sonic on, this is a basic narrative thing

Sonic says “Eggman. That’s not the Chaos I know, that’s a fake. He may have had ‘hatred’ at the time, but he had the ‘heart.’ But this Chaos has nothing.” The fact sonic specifically says chaos may of had hate back when he destroyed the city, before saying he also had heart. Context suggests he has hate given sonic distinguish

Nope, outside the fact that Sonic literally says "this Chaos has NOTHING", aka no heart nor hate.......are you even reading what you are quoting?

it is Sonic explaining that while the Chaos of back them had "hate" he still had heart, as in, one can have both, as "heart" isbused interchangeably with Emotions for the Chaos Emeralds, so the fake Chaos not having heart makes it so that he has no hate automatically

I don't think I am

given the above, you can't blame my suspicion, you literally quoted Sonic saying that the fake Chaos has "nothing" when talking about hate and heart, yet you somehow says that it does have?

You told me to address other points and I did I guess I could talk about this point that confused me a little:

Where would he get more emotions to power himself up? Can he just will himself stronger or something?

from himself? He can go to Full Power on his own, like how we can see in Frontiers for all bosses and in Sonic Heroes

The Emeralds turns thoughta into power, he can literally power up further by just thinking, this has been accepted for a very good while now

Also don't try to deflect, we have given both a comparison and a specific magntude of power AS YOU ASKED FOR ME TO GIVE, and yet now when i point that out you completely ignore it? That doesn't sound right, now does it?

Also this technically.

......this what? Tier 4 comes from individual emeralds, which you consided and said "my bad" for even bringing it up......what about it matters here? what are you even arguing for at this point? You are all over the place