Perfect Chaos upgrade: "Perfection is only found surrounded in Chaos"

[Ghengiroo115]

Disagree FRA. I also don’t see why the Otherworld Perfect Chaos has to be an exact replica of Adventure Perfect Chaos and not a Perfect version of a Modern Chaos clone. Seems more logical for Eggman to create the latter as it would be objectively stronger.

I am thinking that if this thread goes through, of making a CRT to remove variable tier and just making Super Sonic change between eras.

Alternatively just making the peak different between eras like what I suggested in the general thread earlier, in case the evidence for a varies rating is too big to ignore.

 

[Omegabronic]

You're kinda repeating yourself here, Omega. Sonic can't just draw out the full power of the emeralds wherever he wants. If Super Sonic is at 2-C he just needs to draw more power of his 2-C form, not go all the way to 1-C.

yeah, he can't......which is the entire point of point 4 and the pattern, i am showing that he did exactly what he did against other Full Powered Super Form Opponents against Chaos........that plus the Full Powered + the "Super Sonic can as power as he can, Chaos is simply too powerful to harm" statements nails it down that he was indeed using their full power, oh and point 2 shows that even his full power wouldn't be able to harm Chaos at all

Plus Sonic does power himself up to harm Chaos, so I don't see the point of the argument.

but logically, if he can power himself up enough to supposdly one shot chaos, he can easily power himself up enough to be able to harm him, they are both using the literal same power source after all, and yet he doesn't as Chaos is too powerful and he is using his Full Power already, as i pointed out via.....several statements and showings in the OP

Chaos has one statement from a secondary source, where does your numbers come from?

1 statement
2 statements
3 statements
already posted the arguments for them in OP as to why all of them point to a 1-C/Full Powered Super Form level Chaos

as for the feats?
Here a Full Powered Super Sonic can barely dodge its attacks, and Base Sonic dies instantly if hit, so about the Gens boss fight? yeah, the outlier here, as all else points against Sonic scaling to PC in Base

The only thing you brought up that isn't emotional empowerement scaling is the Sonic Channel statement and Otherworld comedy.

and the Sonic Adventure DX Complete Guidebook......which is a main source btw, that you keep ignoring the actual point made there completely for some reason

Time Eater has feats of him nuking the cosmology.

only the Low 1-C parts, he never did any damage to the 1-C Hypertimeline

All the characters you mentioned have statements in the actual games. Chaos only has secondary off-game sources.

the game manual for the game is not "off game", it is literally a main source, so is Sonic channel

again, we accept Sonic channel as being a main canon source here in the wiki, so if you have disagree you need to change that, until then, i am using all Main canon/main game sources here

not that it matters since the Game manual for the game itself is main game source no matter what

A weaker Chaos being capable of one-shotting Base Sonic off-guard and by surprise isn't proof the Gens fight is an outlier.

Sonic is not dragon ball, being "off guard" doesn't lower your durability, this literally doesn't matter, therefore, yes it proves that, as else Sonic would be able to survive the attack, just like he did in Gens

Chaos can fight against Sonic there and harm him, Mephiles shows off-guard Sonic can be one-shot. It just doesn't mean anything.

Mephiles i ABSURDLY more power than Base Sonic, Shadow, Sonic's equal, needs Chaos Boost to be able to even harm him

even if not intentionally, you are kind of being disingenuous here, this ISN'T the same situation and you know it

Chaos has entire fight contradicting his scaling. An actual in-game boss fight>>>statements from secondary sources.

yeah..............which is why i am only using non secondary sources

not that it matters, since all you have is 1 instance vs like, 5 i showed, mine is more consistent, even with only "game" evidence, i have 2, the game manual and the Empowerment point, therefore, even then your evidence is still in the less supported one here

I am thinking that if this thread goes through, of making a CRT to remove variable tier and just making Super Sonic change between eras.

........good luck with that when we have a VERBATIM STATED varied power statement in IDW, but then again, leave that to another thread

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

and Infinite being stronger than both.

If we accept Base Sonic in Generations beating Chaos and Shadow beating Metal Overlord, then Infinite scaling above all of them makes sense

 

[Omegabronic]

Also, if we're using statements from secondary media, there's two statements of Base Sonic fighting Chaos and not needing the emeralds to beat him. That trumps the singular "full power" statement.

yeah, both of which are contradicted to the main source that is Sonic Channel and the Manual for Sonic Adventure itself

even accounting those, i have like, several more evidence than just your 3, i have 3 statements, 2 feats and 1 solid pattern for when and how Sonic reaches his Full power in Super Sonic, you have 2 scans that says NOTHING on Chaos not using the Emeralds Full Power or fighting a Full Powered Adventure Super Sonic, therefore they do not disprove any of my points at all, and 1 fight that is contradicted by literally everything else..........sorry, it just isn't a good rebuttal

 

[Omegabronic]

Disagree FRA. I also don’t see why the Otherworld Perfect Chaos has to be an exact replica of Adventure Perfect Chaos and not a Perfect version of a Modern Chaos clone. Seems more logical for Eggman to create the latter as it would be objectively stronger.

with all due respect, have you read the OP at all? i explained why it isn't, there is NOTHING even suggesting a hypotetical "Modern Perfect Chaos", at all

and no, this isn't a hypotetical "Modern Perfect Chaos" this is a World Eggman created where, in Sonic Adventure, he was able to control Chaos completely, aka this is Adventure Era Perfect Chaos from a world recreating these events

"The runaway disaster that once submerged Station Square. The “God of Destruction,” who wanted to ruin everything indiscriminately, further attacked Sonic with an energy breath that could pierce mountains. Eggman rattled on in a good mood.

“This is the world where I have Chaos under my control and everything has gone well! By defeating you and making this other world ‘original,’ my ‘otherworld conquest’ will be complete!”

Alternatively just making the peak different between eras like what I suggested in the general thread earlier, in case the evidence for a varies rating is too big to ignore.

If we accept Base Sonic in Generations beating Chaos and Shadow beating Metal Overlord, then Infinite scaling above all of them makes sense

again, please do not derail the thread, just talk in the General discussion if you want to discuss this other topics, why discuss them here?

 

[Theuser789]

1 statement
2 statements
3 statements
already posted the arguments for them in OP as to why all of them point to a 1-C/Full Powered Super Form level Chaos

as for the feats?
Here a Full Powered Super Sonic can barely dodge its attacks, and Base Sonic dies instantly if hit, so about the Gens boss fight? yeah, the outlier here, as all else points against Sonic scaling to PC in Base

Omega, literally only the first statement matters. Second isn't exclusive to full power Super Sonic, third is completely irrelevant, and this same Sonic nulls thousands of Chaos (I know it was because of its hax). Like, it genuinely feels like you're just repeating yourself without adressing my arguments?

but logically, if he can power himself up enough to supposdly one shot chaos, he can easily power himself up enough to be able to harm him, they are both using the literal same power source after all, and yet he doesn't as Chaos is too powerful and he is using his Full Power already, as i pointed out via.....several statements and showings in the OP

He literally does power-up enough to harm him. Like, that's how he beats him. This doesn't feel like a legit argument.

Sonic is not dragon ball, being "off guard" doesn't lower your durability, this literally doesn't matter, therefore, yes it proves that, as else Sonic would be able to survive the attack, just like he did in Gens

Off-guard lowers your durability in real life, bro. Dragon Ball didn't invent this.

I still disagree.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The Metal Overlord scaling is honestly enough on its own, it's basically just an earlier version of the Dark Gaia scaling logic.
Also,

This same Sonic nulls thousands of Chaos (I know it was because of its hax).

This changes absolutely nothing? I dunno why you mentioned it in the first place

 

[Omegabronic]

Omega, literally only the first statement matters. Second isn't exclusive to full power Super Sonic

again, it is as.........it directly tells us that Chaos is >>>>>>Super Sonic regardless of how much power he draws from the Emeralds, unless you are talking about the suppory point of the Arrow of light.......which just shows me you have no idea what the argument even is, read point 2 again, you clearly do not get the argument at all

, third is completely irrelevant, and this same Sonic nulls thousands of Chaos (I know it was because of its hax).

Then you also know that this absolutely does not matter in any capacity.....yet you still use this argument?

Like, it genuinely feels like you're just repeating yourself without adressing my arguments?

.......that is exactly what you are doing, i am covering your arguments, explaining why i don't think they are correct while presenting my own to say why they aren't.......you seriously direct asked me where my numbers came from, so i showed you, you ASKED ME to "repeat" myself......what did you expected me to do?

He literally does power-up enough to harm him. Like, that's how he beats him. This doesn't feel like a legit argument.

oh you mean the 1 charged attack that he needs a full charge? By your logic, he can just power up until that level on his own, without needing his charged attack and beat him down......but then again, he can't do that as Chaos is said to be way too powerful for that to work

Again, you are ignoring point 2 in the OP, by your logic Sonic wouldn't need the arrow of light at all, as he could just power up HIMSELF, NO AMP ATTACK to beat him with notmal attacks

Off-guard lowers your durability in real life, bro. Dragon Ball didn't invent this.

........no it doesn't? What are you talking about?

Plus Sonic wasn't "off guard", he was in an active fight against Eggman there, so he was pretty much on guard

I still disagree.

Noted

 

[Theuser789]

The Metal Overlord scaling is honestly enough on its own, it's basically just an earlier version of the Dark Gaia scaling logic.

Dark Gaia is only 1-C because of Tails statement of one of the The End's blast being comparable to it. That's why he's "At most 1-C".

 

[Darkmon_cns]

Dark Gaia is only 1-C because of Tails statement of one of the The End's blast being comparable to it. That's why he's "At most 1-C".

Tbh I can't believe that was enough to give him the tier especially considering the context of it...

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Dark Gaia is only 1-C because of Tails statement of one of the The End's blast being comparable to it. That's why he's "At most 1-C".

And Chaos is the main source of Metal Overlord's 1-C power, so he should probably also scale.

 

[Theuser789]

.......no it doesn't? What are you talking about?

Shadow was injured for days because a guard robot hit him off-guard in Battle. It absolutely does lower your durability. It's common sense.

Don't feel like replying to the rest. I will wait for staff.

 

[Theuser789]

And Chaos is the main source of Metal Overlord's 1-C power, so he should probably also scale.

Metal Overlord's tier is fradulent unlike The End.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

with all due respect, have you read the OP at all? i explained why it isn't, there is NOTHING even suggesting a hypotetical "Modern Perfect Chaos", at all

I did read it, I just disagree on it being objectively the case.

Put it this way, there’s a lot of different secondary evidence that either supports or contradicts the thread. However in terms of primary sources, there’s nothing from what I can see that 100% supports this (correct me if I’m wrong though). The Generations fights against both Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord massively contradict this, and nothing says the Otherworld Perfect Chaos definitely has to be a replica of the original Adventure era Perfect Chaos.

In fact there’s some reason to believe otherwise. The Phantom Ruby can create replicas of a Modern Chaos 0 that Eggman has never seen, plus a Modern Perfect Chaos isn’t beyond Eggman’s power here, so if anything why would he intentionally create a weaker version here? Not to mention how the Perfect Chaos fight still happened even if you want to consider it an outlier, so I think it’s silly for Eggman to make an exact replica of an enemy Sonic already defeated before in lore.

Now in a vacuum I probably would also just assume it was an Adventure era replica, as that’s the lowballed assumption and doesn’t require as many hoops. However based on the context of other primary sources from both before and after Otherworld Comedy, it’s more consistent within the stories themselves for Otherworld Perfect Chaos to be a modern variant.

 

[Starsprite53]

Mephiles shows off-guard Sonic can be one-shot. It just doesn't mean anything.

Tbf piercing damage

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Tbf piercing damage

Mephiles stole Piccolo's move. The Special Beam Cannon. The ONLY piercing move in FICTION!

 

[Starsprite53]

Also not being off-guard doesn't protect you from an attack that stated to make you "vanish" anyways
I could care less about the results of the thread but rather the way the arguments are presented

 

[Omegabronic]

I did read it, I just disagree on it being objectively the case.

Put it this way, there’s a lot of different secondary evidence that either supports or contradicts the thread. However in terms of primary sources, there’s nothing from what I can see that 100% supports this (correct me if I’m wrong though). The Generations fights against both Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord massively contradict this, and nothing says the Otherworld Perfect Chaos definitely has to be a replica of the original Adventure era Perfect Chaos.

the fact that Eggman i literally recreating that exact moment, only that he won in controlling Chaos? Seriously, it is literally the Sonic Adventure final boss moment, he is recreating it, Station Square destroyed and all, he is LITERALLY changing history to be so that he always won there

In fact there’s some reason to believe otherwise. The Phantom Ruby can create replicas of a Modern Chaos 0 that Eggman has never seen, plus a Modern Perfect Chaos isn’t beyond Eggman’s power here, so if anything why would he intentionally create a weaker version here?

the entire point of the Eggfield was to alter the history of the world to make his losses, wins, aka.....he isn't cloning Chaos, he is chaging the history to be so that, in Sonic Adventure, he always won

Not to mention how the Perfect Chaos fight still happened even if you want to consider it an outlier, so I think it’s silly for Eggman to make an exact replica of an enemy Sonic already defeated before in lore.

yet PC also lost to Super Sonic, so even by your logic this is exactly what he did

Now in a vacuum I probably would also just assume it was an Adventure era replica, as that’s the lowballed assumption and doesn’t require as many hoops.

no, that is VERBATIM said to be what he is doing

However based on the context of other primary sources from both before and after Otherworld Comedy, it’s more consistent within the stories themselves for Otherworld Perfect Chaos to be a modern variant.

what other primary sources? you ONLY have the Generations fight, and that is an oultier as far back as the primary source of the Sonic Adventure guide

plus, as i said, THIS SITE CURRENTLY ACCEPTS SONIC CHANNEL AS BEING PRIMARY SOURCE, so stop saying "secondary" already

 

[Theuser789]

Also not being off-guard doesn't protect you from an attack that stated to make you "vanish" anyways
I could care less about the results of the thread but rather the way the arguments are presented

Being not off-guard means he would be able to tank the attack rather than "vanish". It's that simple.

 

[Omegabronic]

Being not off-guard means he would be able to tank the attack rather than "vanish". It's that simple.

.....that is a baseless assumption of your part

being "off guard" is not such a debuff, hell even in forces Infinite and Sonic tanked "off guard" attacks without any injuries, so your logic is wrong and inconsistent even in the series itself

 

[Theuser789]

No, it's not. Shadow got knocked out for days by a guard robot because of an off-guard hit. That's totally a thing.

 

[Starsprite53]

Being not off-guard means he would be able to tank the attack rather than "vanish". It's that simple.

Sorry but an attack that makes you vanish means it's leagues above you even on-guarding, also the whole sentence implied that Base Sonic wouldn't even be fast enough to react to it unlike Super Sonic who BARELY did, meaning it's way faster than him too

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I really don't see why we're assuming Super Sonic in a middle of a fight was off-guard tbh

 

[Theuser789]

I really don't see why we're assuming Super Sonic in a middle of a fight was off-guard tbh

That's not my argument. My argument is that if Base Sonic was in that situation, he would've been caught off-guard by Chaos suddenly showing up and trying to nuke him. The entire sentence is a hypothetical in the first place.

 

[Omegabronic]

No, it's not. Shadow got knocked out for days by a guard robot because of an off-guard hit. That's totally a thing.

......and you just ignored my 2 clear examples where this didn't happened, Infinite getting caught of guard by Omega, and Shadow hitting Sonic of guard also in Forces, where this didn't happened because?

also, this can't be a feat for this Guard robot being that strong because?

 

[Theuser789]

......and you just ignored my 2 clear examples where this didn't happened, Infinite getting caught of guard by Omega, and Shadow hitting Sonic of guard also in Forces, where this didn't happened because?

also, this can't be a feat for this Guard robot being that strong because?

Infinite was able to recover before any damage was made. Shadow doesn't fight Sonic in Forces? Anyways, Guard-Robots are fodder in Battle and several characters beat dozens of them in the game.

 

[Omegabronic]

That's not my argument. My argument is that if Base Sonic was in that situation, he would've been caught off-guard by Chaos suddenly showing up and trying to nuke him. The entire sentence is a hypothetical in the first place.

so......you are relying entire on a hypothetical assumption that is never brought up in the story, nor is it acknowledged at all?.........can't you see the problem? you have legit NO PROOF that this hyper specific scenario is what the statement is talking about, at all, you are legit forcing in non supported headcanon into the narrative

 

[Ghengiroo115]

yet PC also lost to Super Sonic, so even by your logic this is exactly what he did

Well not really no, because Sonic wasn’t Super here at first. Eggman isn’t stupid enough to face base Sonic with something he’s already defeated.

what other primary sources? you ONLY have the Generations fight

I have two fights supporting me, from two different games. Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord both support my side and the two were released 13 years apart.

and that is an oultier as far back as the primary source of the Sonic Adventure guide

Why tf is a guidebook from the 90s considered primary source or a more legitimate piece of info than more recent evidence from two actual games??? That makes no sense.

plus, as i said, THIS SITE CURRENTLY ACCEPTS SONIC CHANNEL AS BEING PRIMARY SOURCE, so stop saying "secondary" already

Like the whole thing, or just the stories like Otherworld Comedy? Because if the former then that’s my mistake, but if the latter then I was never saying Otherworld Comedy was a secondary source.

I think it’s really stupid to take a regional website bio as a just as legitimate piece of powerscaling info as two actual games, but if that’s the standards rn then fair enough

 

[Omegabronic]

Infinite was able to recover before any damage was made.

Which Sonic would be able to do as well, given his growth by leaps and bounds compared to the power he had in Generatiosn compared to the one he has in Otherwordly comedy, right?

Shadow doesn't fight Sonic in Forces?

Clone, beginning of the game

Anyways, Guard-Robots are fodder in Battle and several characters beat dozens of them in the game.

Emerl had exert himself heavily against them to protect Cream in Battle, no they are not, they are legit threats to the main cast, besides, Chaos would also be complete fodder in this case, both in speed and power, so Super Sonic being "barely" able to dodge its attacks also show how he is far above Base Sonic's level

 

[Theuser789]

so......you are relying entire on a hypothetical assumption that is never brought up in the story, nor is it acknowledged at all?.........can't you see the problem? you have legit NO PROOF that this hyper specific scenario is what the statement is talking about, at all, you are legit forcing in non supported headcanon into the narrative

Sonic "vanishing" is also an hypothetical the actual story itself brings, since Base Sonic obviously didn't face Chaos in Otherworld. It was just "if Sonic wasn't Super, he would've vanished!". That's it.

 

[Starsprite53]

Metal Overlord

Tbf Shadow was getting amped overtime in the game (Plus you can argue weakpoints because the little green thing that keeps glowing but I don't wanna be that guy)

 

[JED]

I’m going to wait for staff before I give an agree or disagree, but I feel I need to specify this whole “off guard” thing.
While I haven’t read the Sonic Channel story, so if there is context I’m missing, please let me know, but I am talking about a general thing now. People not understanding that being off guard being a big deal means a lot. There’s a reason why even irl, sucker punching someone is generally frowned upon because the person wasn’t ready and is much more likely to take greater damage than if they had their guard up and expecting an attack. Not thinking an off guard matters is just not true.

 

[Omegabronic]

Well not really no, because Sonic wasn’t Super here at first. Eggman isn’t stupid enough to face base Sonic with something he’s already defeated.

he is when this someone is far above Sonic's level......which Chaos clearly is, given all the statements i gave and 1-C base sonic being an absolute outlier

yeah, it contradicts Generations........call it a "retcon" if you will, but for the actual point, EVERYTHING there is about Eggman using the Chaos from the Sonic Adventure era, unless you actually debunk the argument, i won't change my mind, sorry, i just need an actual rebuttal rather than a "Eggman is not dumb"

I have two fights supporting me, from two different games. Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord both support my side and the two were released 13 years apart.

Metal Overlord is literally 1-C with a solid reasoning, Shadow beating him is an outlier, thus a really not good point here at all, unless you make a Metal Overlord downgrade thread somehow, you can't use this point

Why tf is a guidebook from the 90s

the age of it doesn't matter to me at all

considered primary source or a more legitimate piece of info than more recent evidence from two actual games??? That makes no sense.

considering that said games do not contradict the statement, AT ALL, since they never say anything about Chaos being or not a Full Powered Super Sonic opponent, then bringing them up does absolutely nothing to my point, Sonic matching Chaos is an outlier, him being 1-C is competely inconsistent for Base chars

Like the whole thing, or just the stories like Otherworld Comedy? Because if the former then that’s my mistake, but if the latter then I was never saying Otherworld Comedy was a secondary source.

I think it’s really stupid to take a regional website bio as a just as legitimate piece of powerscaling info as two actual games, but if that’s the standards rn then fair enough

the stories of Sonic channel.......don't see why Sonic Channel, the main source for official stuff in the series, made by Sega themselves directly, would be secondary canon anyway

 

[Omegabronic]

Sonic "vanishing" is also an hypothetical the actual story itself brings

......no? it is a stated fact of what would happen if he wasn't in Super Form?

, since Base Sonic obviously didn't face Chaos in Otherworld. It was just "if Sonic wasn't Super, he would've vanished!". That's it.

it is a direct power comparison between his Super Form and Base Form? proven by how even Super Sonic can barely dodge Chaos in the story? this isn't a hypotetical "actually, Sonic would only vanish if he was off guard, since that makes fodder one shot him" like you are trying to force into the narrative, this is a DIRECT POWER COMPARISON, you are grasping at straws here

 

[Starsprite53]

I’m going to wait for staff before I give an agree or disagree, but I feel I need to specify this whole “off guard” thing.
While I haven’t read the Sonic Channel story, so if there is context I’m missing, please let me know, but I am talking about a general thing now. People not understanding that being off guard being a big deal means a lot. There’s a reason why even irl, sucker punching someone is generally frowned upon because the person wasn’t ready and is much more likely to take greater damage than if they had their guard up and expecting an attack. Not thinking an off guard matters is just not true

The problem is:
1)Base Sonic was implied that he wouldn't even be fast enough to react to it unlike Super Sonic who barely did, meaning he is way slower
2)An attack that will make you vanish WILL make you vanish regardless if you're on-guard or not, best-case scenario that it will badly damage you, which is still not scaling
3)Not sure why off-guard is being argued here in the first place tbh (of course that this point isn't directed to you)

 

[Omegabronic]

I’m going to wait for staff before I give an agree or disagree, but I feel I need to specify this whole “off guard” thing.
While I haven’t read the Sonic Channel story, so if there is context I’m missing, please let me know, but I am talking about a general thing now. People not understanding that being off guard being a big deal means a lot. There’s a reason why even irl, sucker punching someone is generally frowned upon because the person wasn’t ready and is much more likely to take greater damage than if they had their guard up and expecting an attack. Not thinking an off guard matters is just not true.

i mean, it does, but there is a different betweena sucker punch, and making a person's entire body vanish from existence with a single attack

plus, Sonic wasn't even off guard here, User just said that this was....supposedly, the context which Sonic would have vanished in the story........which isn't said anywhwere and i dunno where he got that from

 

[Starsprite53]

Also why can't we pull a classic sonic here like how it's in his profile? It's no different from Classic Sonic defeating modern enemies but returns weaker due to "Timeline correcting itself"

 

[Theuser789]

Also why can't we pull a classic sonic here like how it's in his profile? It's no different from Classic Sonic defeating modern enemies but returns weaker due to "Timeline correcting itself"

I am fine with Otherworld Chaos being 1-C and all as a hypothetical modern form, but this thread isn't about that. I disagree with Chaos in general being 1-C and the nightmare that would produce.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Tbf Shadow was getting amped overtime in the game (Plus you can argue weakpoints because the little green thing that keeps glowing but I don't wanna be that guy)

True, however the Japanese version has Shadow state Sonic is stronger than Metal Overlord, and the amps are also seemingly treated as passive in the game which would mean Sonic would arguably still scale regardless. Shadow also treats Metal Overlord as generally pathetic, which seems weird if he was significantly weaker than Metal prior to his very recent amps and also contradicts his respect for Sonic’s strength.

Metal Overlord is literally 1-C with a solid reasoning, Shadow beating him is an outlier, thus a really not good point here at all, unless you make a Metal Overlord downgrade thread somehow, you can't use this point

Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord are in the exact same situation here. As far as I’m concerned PC and MO’s tiers should’ve been covered in the same thread from the start, as the legitimacy of one directly affects the legitimacy of the other.

considering that said games do not contradict the statement, AT ALL

???

since they never say anything about Chaos being or not a Full Powered Super Sonic opponent

Why does them saying this or not saying this matter?

him being 1-C is competely inconsistent for Base chars

I agree, which is why I’m disagreeing with 1-C PC

the stories of Sonic channel.......don't see why Sonic Channel, the main source for official stuff in the series, made by Sega themselves directly, would be secondary canon anyway

So the bios for different characters and games aren’t considered primary canon? I’m confused

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

True, however the Japanese version has Shadow state Sonic is stronger than Metal Overlord, and the amps are also seemingly treated as passive in the game which would mean Sonic would arguably still scale regardless. Shadow also treats Metal Overlord as generally pathetic, which seems weird if he was significantly weaker than Metal prior to his very recent amps and also contradicts his respect for Sonic’s strength.


Perfect Chaos and Metal Overlord are in the exact same situation here. As far as I’m concerned PC and MO’s tiers should’ve been covered in the same thread from the start, as the legitimacy of one directly affects the legitimacy of the other.

???


Why does them saying this or not saying this matter?


I agree, which is why I’m disagreeing with 1-C PC


So the bios for different characters and games aren’t considered primary canon? I’m confused

I mean, it's hardly a buff, to be honest. The only visible/significant amp Shadow got was Doom Blast for physicals and Doom Wing (it's built different). I hardly consider most stuff in Shadow Gens an actual amp and more of utility that he can utilize in a pinch, to be honest. Considering it's been stated that Shadow is equal to Sonic base to base in the game and if Sonic is stated to be stronger than Metal Overlord, I just think it's safe to assume Shadow's taking the fight even without Doom Powers. Just Doom Surf giving terrain advantage and reflection move.