Perfect Chaos upgrade: "Perfection is only found surrounded in Chaos"

[Omegabronic]

Hello y'all, here i am going to prove why Perfect Chaos should scale to the full power of the Chaos Emeralds, as we currently only rate him to 2-C based around him fighting a "baseline" Super Sonic......well, today i will show why Super Sonic at that time WASN'T at baseline power, but rather fighting at his peak, aka using the Full power that the Chaos Emeralds can produce. here we go

link for the translation we use for Otherworldly comedy storyline, which will be a main point later on, by WindiiGitlord

note1: Sonic Channel/Sonic Channel stories are currently accepted as primary sources/Primary Canon, and the Manual for Sonic Adventure itself would also count as a primary soruce for obvious reasons

Main arguments​

1 Stated blatantly to have fought Sonic while the latter was using the Full/Maximum power of the emeralds​

This is the most straight forward point, in the Sonic Channel Bio it is said that Super Sonic used the Full Power of the Emeralds to fight Perfect Chaos (Translations done by Windii, which i got extra confirmation from @Executor_N0 that it is accurate). aka the emeralds were at their full power

Now sure, one could argue that Perfect Chaos himself isn't using the Emeralds' Full Power as the statement is for Sonic......that, however, doesn't matter as Perfect Chaos would still be scaling from Full Powered Super Sonic in this fight anyway, making him 1-C regardless

also this statement came after Sonic 06 and the fight with Solaris, another 1-C Super Sonic opponent......make that what you will

2 No matter how much power Sonic gets from the Emeralds, he straight up can't harm him in anyway unless he uses a charged attack, the arrow of light​

It is said that Chaos in this state is way too powerful for Super Sonic to harm "No matter how powerful" he is, aka, no matter how much power Sonic draws from the Emeralds, Chaos is simply too durable for him to harm at all with his normal attacks, so he should be > Chaos Emeralds' Full Power since not even that would be enough to harm him without the extra stats amp of a charged attack, if Sonic wasn't at his Full power, as the earlier statements and following evidence makes clear he was, he could also just......power himself up with Empowerment, which is how Chaos Emeralds generate more power, until he is powerful enough to overpower Chaos normally, as Chaos would be 2-C while he can go up to 1-C, so surely he can also go to any amount of power to not need a charged attack......yet he still does anyway

note2: For this point, the point isn't him using the Arrow of light, but that it is verbatim stated that Chaos is too powerful to be harmed by Super Sonic, NO MATTER HOW POWERFUL HE IS, therefore, no matter how much Sonic powers up, be it his minimal or Full power, Chaos is simply too superior for Sonic to be able to harm him

3 His data is what made Metal Overlord the threat he is​

The way Metal Overlord, accepted as 1-C currently, achieved his power was via copying Perfect Chaos' data. which combined with the fact that it also cannot be harmed at all by Super Sonic unless he uses a charged combined attack with Tails and Knuckles + Eggman saying that even with the Emeralds they will need a miracle to beat him, makes it clear that they are fighting a Peak Super Form opponent. hence why they straight up cannot harm him, which wouldn't happen if they could simply power up further to do so

Some people say that Metal Overlord should be downgraded........but he really shouldn't, even against Full Powered Super forms Sonic doesn't need to charge up for a long time on the Emeralds to transform, plus other evidence, but most importantly, if people think he should be downgraded......well they should try and prove that later in another thread, not this one, as it would be derailing

4 Similar situation to other confirmed Full Power Super Sonic situations​

To power up the Chaos Emeralds for his final fight with Perfect Chaos, Sonic channeled his emotions/"heart" with not only his friends, but all civilians of Station Square, which is a similar situations to other accepted Full Power Super Sonic opponents, like Solaris, who the Emeralds channeled the power of all present to make him go Super, and Light-Man Eggman, who Sonic had the Emeralds charge up with all the "heart" and past essences of all his friends present as well:

"As it approached Sonic, it transformed into a purple Chaos Emerald, its original form, and emitted a strong light… and as if in response, the brooch on Sonic’s chest also transformed into a white Chaos Emerald and began to shine.

Blaze and Sonic nodded silently. And at that moment, all of them understood at the same time what they should do now.

“…You better have this, Sonic!”
“The charm of victory! It’s yours!”
“Sonic! I’m gonna let ya handle this one!”

One after another, the tiara, pendant, and transformation belt filled with their hopes gather at Sonic. They are restored to their original forms and shine brightly in a variety of colors."

therefore, Perfect Chaos' situation for Sonic to transform has precedent for other situations in the series to be the Emeralds at their full power, which is perfectly supported by the earlier statements and scaling presented, given we know how the Emeralds are empowered and how Sonic

with this, i have shown a consistent pattern on the situation Sonic goes Full Power with Super Sonic

5 He has direct feats scaling to Full Powered/1-C Super Sonic​

PC is blatantly extremely superior to Base Modern Sonic and scaling in Speed to Full Powered Super Sonic who can barely dodge its attacks, we also have another moment showing how blatantly Perfect Chaos is absurdity superior to Base Sonic, when Eggman ordered all of them to attack Sonic, he was utterly shocked by how nothing worked

"The energy of the roars evaporated the seawater hundreds of meters around them, sending a plume of vapor smoke high into the sky, but…

When the smoke eventually dissipated into the wind, there was a golden hedgehog, unharmed and still in the sky.

“…That won’t work on me!”
“This cannot be! Perhaps the power of Super Sonic neutralizes otherworldification…? Wait, could it be…!”"

Since we accept Eggman in this state to scale equally to Super Sonic, it would be weird for him to be surprised by being supposedly infinitely weaker than both of them being unable to harm Super Sonic at all, and before anyone says that Light-Man Eggman should be downgraded, his energy, that he uses to power himself, is also uses to create Dark Gaia, another 1-C being, making his already solid tier more solid

"When Sonic roared and emitted a golden aura, the other world vanished like mist. The fake cosmos also collapsed. Eggman, who runs away with no other trick up his sleeve, continues to create alternate worlds, whether he knows it is futile or not.

…A world where he used the power of Dark Gaia to complete the new Eggmanland.
…A world where he perfected the ultimate weapon with the planet’s life energy, with the help of the Six Demons serving under him.
…A world where he took control of the runaway Mother Wisp and brainwashed all living things around the world"

Support points​

He uses the Arrow of Light during the confrontation, which is a tecnhique only ever used against Full Powered Super Sonic opponents over the years​

this is more of a support point, but it is said that Sonic can only harm Perfect Chaos by using his Arrow of Light Technique, which is historically a move he only ever pulled up against Peak Super Form opponents, like Solaris and Light-Man Eggman

Addressing things​

1 Base Sonic defeated Chaos​

While true, given the evidence above for Chaos to be Peak Super Form tier/1-C, we can easily discard this as an outlier, Chaos should be able to easily destroy Sonic with one attack..........which is said in the series itself, in Otherworldly comedy it is said that if Chaos hits base Sonic at all, which is a Sonic after Generations where he fought Chaos, Sonic would have died, no one can use the "he would be caught off guard" card here either, as Sonic was directly looking at the position where the attacks came from and was in the middle of a fight, so he was pretty much on guard here

Super Sonic, accepted as using his Full Power in this instance(See Light-Man Eggman's profile), could barely dodge attacks from these Chaoses, and no, this isn't a hypotetical "Modern Perfect Chaos" this is a World Eggman created where, in Sonic Adventure, he was able to control Chaos completely, aka this is Adventure Era Perfect Chaos from a world recreating these events, and there is absolutely no evidence of Eggman "powering up" his clones or anything like that, and we have no backing up on that even being a thing the Phantom Ruby can do to its clones, they are always described as being "as strong as the originals", never "stronger", else he could have empowered them during Sonic Forces and wiped the resistance out.....yet he didn't

"The runaway disaster that once submerged Station Square. The “God of Destruction,” who wanted to ruin everything indiscriminately, further attacked Sonic with an energy breath that could pierce mountains. Eggman rattled on in a good mood.

“This is the world where I have Chaos under my control and everything has gone well! By defeating you and making this other world ‘original,’ my ‘otherworld conquest’ will be complete!”

And while yes, this Chaos is.....technically different from the one of the Adventure era, it isn't by anything worthwhile that would make it stronger, more details in the next point.....

to make it very clear, my argument here isn't "he can one shot base Sonic, so he is Super Sonic level" my argument here is that Base Sonic is nowhere close Chaos and needs Super to stand up against them, and can be harmed by them have it not be for what will be described bellow....

2 Super Sonic when at full power easily destroyed several Perfect Chaos clones with his Aura alone​

yes, but no, see there is more context for why he was able to do it. For one, those Chaos' were not as strong as the original Perfect Chaos. "But the Phantom Ruby clones are as powerful as the original!" Yeah, normally that is true........but in this case, Perfect Chaos is a Chaos Energy user. Chaos Energy is displayed and accepted to rely on emotions to show their true power, which is something that Super Sonic comments Perfect Chaos lacks before he explains why he can deal with them so easily to Eggman. considering how both the OG Perfect Chaos and Super Sonic are powered by the same thing, the Chaos Emeralds, this comparison becomes even more clear. so no, Chaos wasn't as strong as he should be due to not having "heart" to fuel his Chaos Energy to its true potential

Plus....Sonic wasn't destroying them with AP, as explained by Eggman, Sonic was actually Nullifying his "Otherwordlyfication", making all of them disapear as a result, with Sonic explaining this as well when Eggman questions his ability to easily make all Perfect Chaos' disappear

"The energy of the roars evaporated the seawater hundreds of meters around them, sending a plume of vapor smoke high into the sky, but…

When the smoke eventually dissipated into the wind, there was a golden hedgehog, unharmed and still in the sky.

“…That won’t work on me!”
“This cannot be! Perhaps the power of Super Sonic neutralizes otherworldification…? Wait, could it be…!”

Which is even clearer by later interaction of Super Sonic and the constructs of Otherworldlyfication:

"As Eggman continues his desperate escape, he raises his hand and his surroundings are instantly transformed into an alternate world in outer space. The “Eclipse Cannon,” an optical weapon mounted on the Space Colony ARK that can pierce even the stars, points its muzzle at Sonic, and the enormous energy of the cannon strikes him, but…

“I told you it doesn’t work!”

Baaang!

“Eeeep!”

When Sonic roared and emitted a golden aura, the other world vanished like mist. The fake cosmos also collapsed. Eggman, who runs away with no other trick up his sleeve, continues to create alternate worlds, whether he knows it is futile or not.

…A world where he used the power of Dark Gaia to complete the new Eggmanland.
…A world where he perfected the ultimate weapon with the planet’s life energy, with the help of the Six Demons serving under him.
…A world where he took control of the runaway Mother Wisp and brainwashed all living things around the world.

But all of the alternate worlds of Eggman’s dreams are instantly drowned out by the brilliance of Super Sonic.

“Give it up, Eggman! So much for your stupid ‘otherworld conquest’ thing!”
“Stuff it! You’re eradicating all my dreams!”


so it wasn't ever because Sonic was too powerful, it was simply Sonic nullifying the ability that was making the Perfect Chaos' exist in the first place

Conclusion​

Perfect Chaos should be upgraded to 1-C via scaling to a Full Powered Super Sonic, and should be considered a "Full Powered" Chaos Energy user as well like Solaris or The Titans are, and his fight with Sonic in Generations has to go back to being an outlier as earlier stories make clear that an weaker clone of Perfect Chaos could completely one shot Sonic have him not been Super, as Perfect Chaos has no consistent anti feats to contradict the very consistent statements and feats he has to scale to a Full Powered Super Sonic/1-C

to summarize, he is heavily implied to be able to harm Full Powered Super Sonic in Otherwordly comedy, Super Sonic there can barely dodge its attacks, it is Blatant Said to have been fighting a Super Sonic using the Full Power of the Chaos Emeralds, aka 1-C, is said to be too powerful for Super Sonic to harm without a massive stat amp move, regardless of how powerful Super Sonic on his own is

so he has consistent statements and feats to scale, and has feats showing massive superiority to Base Sonic, when mixing all the evidence, Base Sonic beating Chaos is the outlier, since it is the isolated singular event that has no explanation vs literally all else surrounding Chaos

A BIG, BIG thank you to @ShakeResounding for helping me out with this thing

Note3: Please.....PLEASE don't bring up 1-C base Sonic in this, i don't want to talk about it here, AT ALL​

Note4: Here are some rebuttals to some common counter arguments to the arguments on this thread

EDIT5: Here is the summary of the main arguments of the thread​

Agree: @LordGriffin1000

Disagree: @Maverick_Zero_X @DarkDragonMedeus @Theglassman12

Neutral: @Planck69

 

[Darkmon_cns]

I have found latly that I disagree with varied super sonic, so I sort of disagree with this by default. But I also guess it isn't fair to count that, so I'll just try to stay out of this one.

 

[Alexander]

I wanted my 1-C Sonic...

 

[JJSliderman]

Agree with the PC upgrade, give me time and I’ll find a way to use this for 1-C Base.

 

[Theuser789]

I disagree. The only real valid point is the Sonic Channel statement of using the "full power" of the emeralds, which is valid, except...

• This is talking about Sonic, not Chaos. If taken at face value Chaos is NOT using the full power of the emeralds, just Sonic.
• Feats>Statements. Chaos has no real feats scaling him to people like Solaris. He has other anti-feats, too. Actual events from the games take precedence over secondary material, meaning dismissing the Generations fight for this is a no go.

The other valid point is Otherworld Chaos, mainly that he could've killed Base Sonic. However in your very post you post proof of why he isn't the same as actual Adventure Chaos, meaning we can't really scale him to this. Plus Sonic could still be killed by a full power attack from Chaos if he doesn't block, he died to Mephiles, after-all. You don't need to be super form tier to kill Base Sonic.

Second point doesn't matter if Super Sonic wasn't at full power, since it's talking about the moment only.

Third and fourth don't really matter, too. Metal Overlord is going to be downgraded because he doesn't have proof that he fought Full Power Super Sonic, either. Lightman the same. Emotional empowerement is too vague to say if an enemy is full power Super Sonic tier or not, it's better to rate them by their feats.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Don't much agree with the outlier of Sonic beating Perfect Chaos in base since it isn't just one time we see this, but with Shadow fighting Metal Overlord. Shadow in this instance isn't particularly amped and the only MAYBE 1-C Shadow in Gens is the Doom Shadow with the golden aura. So I think this is becoming more consistent. The perfect Chaos in Otherworld could very well be an empowered version since this happens after Forces, so I do think Perfect Chaos would have been much stronger at this point in the series. Could just be in Generations, it was manageable.

 

[Omegabronic]

Agree with the PC upgrade, give me time and I’ll find a way to use this for 1-C Base.

do not open that can in here ok?

 

[JJSliderman]

However in your very post you post proof of why he isn't the same as actual Adventure Chaos, meaning we can't really scale him to this.

Yeah, Sonic says these PCs are “weaker”, so that’s reason enough to scale them.

 

[Theuser789]

Yeah, Sonic says these PCs are “weaker”, so that’s reason enough to scale them.

Except being capable of killing Base Sonic doesn't make you super form tier.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is talking about Sonic, not Chaos. If taken at face value Chaos is NOT using the full power of the emeralds, just Sonic.

The same Sonic who's completely unable to harm Chaos without the Arrow of Light?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I disagree. The only real valid point is the Sonic Channel statement of using the "full power" of the emeralds, which is valid, except...

• This is talking about Sonic, not Chaos. If taken at face value Chaos is NOT using the full power of the emeralds, just Sonic.
• Feats>Statements. Chaos has no real feats scaling him to people like Solaris. He has other anti-feats, too. Actual events from the games take precedence over secondary material, meaning dismissing the Generations fight for this is a no go.

The other valid point is Otherworld Chaos, mainly that he could've killed Base Sonic. However in your very post you post proof of why he isn't the same as actual Adventure Chaos, meaning we can't really scale him to this. Plus Sonic could still be killed by a full power attack from Chaos if he doesn't block, he died to Mephiles, after-all. You don't need to be super form tier to kill Base Sonic.

Second point doesn't matter if Super Sonic wasn't at full power, since it's talking about the moment only.

Third and fourth don't really matter, too. Metal Overlord is going to be downgraded because he doesn't have proof that he fought Full Power Super Sonic, either. Lightman the same. Emotional empowerement is too vague to say if an enemy is full power Super Sonic tier or not, it's better to rate them by their feats.

I agree with all of this, pretty much. We shouldn't be using stuff like "emotional empowerment" as a means to determine if someone is Full Power Super Sonic tier or not. It's all in the individual feats, as doing otherwise is trying to force consistency into something inherently inconsistent (that being the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds). The only reason 2-C is a baseline is because there's no one using the Emeralds in that feat, but when people use the Emeralds, that's a different story.

Metal Overlord's going down to 2-C for this very reason. Light-Man Eggman should also be going down to Low 1-C (not 2-C, because of the 5-D the Egg Field; the OP funnily enough explained why exactly it wouldn't still be 1-C with the Dark Gaia stuff).

So yeah, hard disagree with the OP. The "full power" statement also came at a time when 1-C Super Forms didn't even exist yet, so like, yeah...

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Neutral. User brings some good points, but not enough to fully convince me.

 

[Omegabronic]

I disagree. The only real valid point is the Sonic Channel statement of using the "full power" of the emeralds, which is valid, except...

• This is talking about Sonic, not Chaos. If taken at face value Chaos is NOT using the full power of the emeralds, not Sonic

which doesn't matter as Chaos would be scalling either way, so this doesn't change the point

• Feats>Statements. Chaos has no real feats scaling him to people like Solaris.

neither does The End, or Light-Man Eggman, or Dark Gaia, or the Time Eater..........feats are >> statements sure......but in this case there is literally only 1 scalling showing contradicting it.......vs like, everything else pointing out the opposite

• He has other anti-feats, too. Actual events from the games take precedence over secondary material, meaning dismissing the Generations fight for this is a no go.

except he is more consistently shown and statement to be Full Power Super Sonic level, plus tis is not "secondary material" here, as we accept Sonic Channel stories as being main canon, with Shadow gens even referencing them directly with images

The other valid point is Otherworld Chaos, mainly that he could've killed Base Sonic. However in your very post you post proof of why he isn't the same as actual Adventure Chaos, meaning we can't really scale him to this.

yes he is, the same Chaos from that time now under Eggman's control thanks to the Eggfield

he is "different" in the way that he has no "heart" aka, he is weaker than his normal self, he isn't "different" in anyway that would matter here

Plus Sonic could still be killed by a full power attack from Chaos if he doesn't block, he died to Mephiles, after-all. You don't need to be super form tier to kill Base Sonic.

no, but this is a weaker Chaos than the one Sonic defeated in Generations, so he would be able to tank a single attack as he did in said boss fight

so frankly.....this point doesn't make sense, as the basis for Sonic scallingt to PC in Gens is him surviving attacks and harming him, so he should be able to survive against a blatantly weaker PC if he truly scalled to him

Second point doesn't matter if Super Sonic wasn't at full power, since it's talking about the moment only.

it does, if Sonic isn't at Full power......he can just Power up to be at his full power, or at least drawn more power to be able to harm Chaos

plus you are not addressing the statement, it doesn't matter how much power Super Sonic has, Chaos is simply too powerful to be harmed, aka.......the statement is saying that his Full power wouldn't be enough to harm Chaos at all, so honestly this a bad rebutal as you are not addressing the statement itself

Third and fourth don't really matter, too. Metal Overlord is going to be downgraded because he doesn't have proof that he fought Full Power Super Sonic, either.

he does, hence why he is currently, i even elaborated why he is that way in the actual point, which again, you are not addressing

Lightman the same.

he literally used his energy to make Dark Gaia, the 1-C also accepted Full Power Sonic opponent..........this isn't true

Emotional empowerement is too vague to say if an enemy is full power Super Sonic tier or not, it's better to rate them by their feats.

Empowerment isn't "vague" when we see a clear pattern that we can compare, which i did show here, therefore no, you are wrong here, simple as that, we clearly see a difference in scope when it is only Sonic powering them up vs Several people powering them up at once

again, you didn't addressed the point at all, you just said "vague" without addressing why it is vague to begin with and without rebutting the points and evidence that were made and brought

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I agree with all of this, pretty much. We shouldn't be using stuff like "emotional empowerment" as a means to determine if someone is Full Power Super Sonic tier or not. It's all in the individual feats, as doing otherwise is trying to force consistency into something inherently inconsistent (that being the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds). The only reason 2-C is a baseline is because there's no one using the Emeralds in that feat, but when people use the Emeralds, that's a different story.

Why would the maximum power of the Emeralds vary?

Metal Overlord's going down to 2-C for this very reason. Light-Man Eggman should also be going down to Low 1-C (not 2-C, because of the 5-D the Egg Field; the OP funnily enough explained why exactly it wouldn't still be 1-C with the Dark Gaia stuff).

This Perfect Chaos clone downgrade doesn't aply to Dark Gaia due to the fact that its power was never derived from the Chaos Emeralds' empowerment in the first place.

So yeah, hard disagree with the OP. The "full power" statement also came at a time when 1-C Super Forms didn't even exist yet, so like, yeah...

The Chaos Emeralds don't have accelerated devellopment. Their maximum power at the time has no reason to be different from their max power today.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So yeah, hard disagree with the OP. The "full power" statement also came at a time when 1-C Super Forms didn't even exist yet, so like, yeah...

No Super Form even showcased Low 2-C feats by this point, we still list them at 2-C, so like?

 

[JJSliderman]

Except being capable of killing Base Sonic doesn't make you super form tier.

Nah, I’m just saying why PC would scale to these Otherworld copies.

 

[Omegabronic]

Don't much agree with the outlier of Sonic beating Perfect Chaos in base since it isn't just one time we see this, but with Shadow fighting Metal Overlord. Shadow in this instance isn't particularly amped and the only MAYBE 1-C Shadow in Gens is the Doom Shadow with the golden aura. So I think this is becoming more consistent. The perfect Chaos in Otherworld could very well be an empowered version since this happens after Forces, so I do think Perfect Chaos would have been much stronger at this point in the series. Could just be in Generations, it was manageable.

the Chaos in Otherwordly comedy was the Adventure one, and it was said verbatim to be weaker by Sonic.........there is also nothing saying he was "empowered" at all

I agree with all of this, pretty much. We shouldn't be using stuff like "emotional empowerment" as a means to determine if someone is Full Power Super Sonic tier or not.

that is.......literally what we already do

It's all in the individual feats, as doing otherwise is trying to force consistency into something inherently inconsistent (that being the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds).

claiming it is "inheretly inconsistent" when i just showed a consistent pattern with statements supporting it, while not addressing said statements and pattern is........not a good rebuttal, sorry

The only reason 2-C is a baseline is because there's no one using the Emeralds in that feat, but when people use the Emeralds, that's a different story.

which is why i brought a bunch of evidence a clear pattern for them

Metal Overlord's going down to 2-C for this very reason.

he isn't, his reasoning for being a Full Powered Super Sonic foe is solid

Light-Man Eggman should also be going down to Low 1-C (not 2-C, because of the 5-D the Egg Field; the OP funnily enough explained why exactly it wouldn't still be 1-C with the Dark Gaia stuff).

i didn't, Dark Gaia has NOTHING to do with the reason Perfect Chaos was weaker, the argument doesn't affect anyone BUT Perfect Chaos.............honestly, what argument are you talking about? i certainly didn't made that one

So yeah, hard disagree with the OP. The "full power" statement also came at a time when 1-C Super Forms didn't even exist yet, so like, yeah...

it did, as the statement came way after Sonic 06 was a thing.......as you can see if you look bellow it, this point is just blatantly wrong

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

the Chaos in Otherwordly comedy was the Adventure one, and it was said verbatim to be weaker by Sonic.........there is also nothing saying he was "empowered" at all


that is.......literally what we already do


claiming it is "inheretly inconsistent" when i just showed a consistent pattern with statements supporting it, while not addressing said statements and pattern is........not a good rebuttal, sorry


which is why i brought a bunch of evidence a clear pattern for them


he isn't, his reasoning for being a Full Powered Super Sonic foe is solid


i didn't, Dark Gaia has NOTHING to do with the reason Perfect Chaos was weaker, the argument doesn't affect anyone BUT Perfect Chaos.............honestly, what argument are you talking about? i certainly didn't made that one


it did, as the statement came way after Sonic 06 was a thing.......as you can see if you look bellow it, this point is just blatantly wrong

Fair enough, though I still disagree with it being an outlier for base Sonic beating Perfect Chaos. Seems more consistent these days to be an outlier.

 

[Omegabronic]

Fair enough, though I still disagree with it being an outlier for base Sonic beating Perfect Chaos. Seems more consistent these days to be an outlier.

again

do not open that can in here ok?

please.....PLEASE don't bring up 1-C base Sonic in this, i don't want to talk about it here, AT ALL

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That topic definitely needs more time in the oven.

 

[Theuser789]

The same Sonic who's completely unable to harm Chaos without the Arrow of Light?

The Arrow of Light isn't an automatic full power Super Sonic move, so yeah. It just means Adventure Super Sonic scales to him.

Snip

Your way of formatting responses is pretty bad, Omega. It makes it hard to reply but I will try.

Chaos not using the full power of the emeralds means he isn't full power Super Sonic tier, pronto. It just shows he's weaker than that tier. Dark Gaia, Time Eater and The End all have feats, too. Chaos only has a statement from a secondary media source, and only that. One statement is not "consistent" by any metrics of the word.

Sonic was in the air and taken by surprise when Chaos attacked him in the Otherworld story. Sonic could've died there if he was in base. Again, being able to kill Base Sonic with a good hit doesn't make you super form tier.

Sonic needing the arrow of light doesn't mean he's using full power. It just means he has to exert effort to attack Chaos. Final Hazard, Devil Doom, Ultimate Gemerl would all be tier 1 if needing an attack is all that you needed to be full power Sonic tier.

I didn't elaborate in the emotional empowerement power because it's not a feat. In Frontiers Sonic didn't have any of those scenes and that's most likely the strongest Super Sonic to date. It just doesn't really mean anything by itself without feats from the opponent.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

That topic definitely needs more time in the oven.

We DO need to cook, though.... It'd be SO funny....

 

[Peptocoptr27]

Oh yeah, I do wonder if this upgrade should aply to Finalhazard as well, since Super Sonic was impressed with its power despite having fought Perfect Chaos the game before.

 

[ZothythoTheNephalem]

Oh yeah, I do wonder if this upgrade should aply to Finalhazard as well, since Super Sonic was impressed with its power despite having fought Perfect Chaos the game before.

It technically chain scales the entire verse and that's very funny to me. If this gets passed, it'd be HUGE.

 

[CloverDragon03]

If Chaos doesn't have an actual 1-C feat, he's not scaling to that level. We've always done Super Form scaling via individual feats, as that's how we make sense of the variable nature of the Chaos Emeralds. I've had this talk multiple times and haven't been convinced otherwise. Metal Overlord and Light-Man Eggman should be downgraded as well for the same reason, but that's for another time. Also, the aforementioned chain scaling is another issue I have, because we're giving characters such high scaling with nothing even remotely implying it

I won't be commenting further because I've been burned out on this topic, but I felt it'd be wrong of me to not give my opinion at all.

 

[JJSliderman]

Chaos not using the full power of the emeralds means he isn't full power Super Sonic tier, pronto. It just shows he's weaker than that tier. Dark Gaia, Time Eater and The End all have feats, too. Chaos only has a statement from a secondary media source, and only that. One statement is not "consistent" by any metrics of the word.

If we’re being technical, Time Eater is also scaling to 6-D off the emotional empowerment thing, otherwise he’s 5-D with 6-D Smurf hax.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm leaning toward agreeing but this does raise the question regarding Sonic in Generations beating him, and Shadow in Shadow Generations beating Metal Overlord who is arguably stronger than Perfect Chaos

 

[Omegabronic]

The Arrow of Light isn't an automatic full power Super Sonic move, so yeah. It just means Adventure Super Sonic scales to him.

again, you are not addressing the point, if Sonic can just power himself up more.....why didn't he? why does he keep relying on a charge up move instead of just......powering up until he is enough on his own to harm Chaos without it?

plus, you are again ignoring the statement about how Sonic needs to arrow of light because Chaos is straight up way too powerful for him to harm, REGARDLESS OF HOW POWERFUL SUPER SONIC GETS, therefore.........even the Emeralds' full power isn't enough to harm Chaos at all

Your way of formatting responses is pretty bad, Omega. It makes it hard to reply but I will try.

sorry, i will try to do better

Chaos not using the full power of the emeralds means he isn't full power Super Sonic tier, pronto. It just shows he's weaker than that tier.

i mean.........you didn't bring anything that proves that Chaos isn't, while i did bring a verbatim statement saying Super Sonic IS at his Full Power, so since he fought a Full Powered Super Sonic, he is using the Emeralds' Full Power as well, pronto, it shows he is in that tier

Dark Gaia, Time Eater and The End all have feats, too. Chaos only has a statement from a secondary media source, and only that. One statement is not "consistent" by any metrics of the word.

you are.....very wrong here, he has 3 statements and 2 feats on that level, meanwhile him not being Full Powered Super Sonic level is only.......1 feat, sorry, him NOT being a Full Power Super Sonic foe IS THE INCONSISTENT OUTLIER HERE, not the opposite, also, Dark Gaia only has statements......so does the Time Eater, and The End, all of them rely exclusively on statements, solid statements? yeah, just like the one i am bringing for Chaos here

Sonic was in the air and taken by surprise when Chaos attacked him in the Otherworld story. Sonic could've died there if he was in base. Again, being able to kill Base Sonic with a good hit doesn't make you super form tier.

Again, if Sonic scales to Chaos in base, which is your argument, then Sonic would have endured the attack, just like he did in Generations......you are right, being able to kill Base Sonic doesn't make him Super Form tier.......which is why i didn't that argument, it was to show how much of an outlier the Generations boss fight is when compared to literally everything else that is shown about Perfect Chaos........you can't isolate each point and act as if they are self contained, they are not

Sonic needing the arrow of light doesn't mean he's using full power. It just means he has to exert effort to attack Chaos. Final Hazard, Devil Doom, Ultimate Gemerl would all be tier 1 if needing an attack is all that you needed to be full power Sonic tier.

.....again, you are not seeing the Full picture, yeah, that alone wouldn't.............which is why i brought up several other statements explaining why he needed the technique, because otherwise Chaos is way too powerful for Sonic to harm, REGARDLESS OF HOW POWERFUL HE GETS AS SUPER SONIC

again, you can't ignore the statements, you need address all of them together rather than separated, else you are literally not covering the actual points

I didn't elaborate in the emotional empowerement power because it's not a feat.

......what does that mean? how does that matter here? again, i have statement + the pattern to support the Empowerment being a "Full Powered" Super Sonic one here, and you didn't addressed them at all

In Frontiers Sonic didn't have any of those scenes and that's most likely the strongest Super Sonic to date. It just doesn't really mean anything by itself without feats from the opponent.

Sonic has better control over the Emeralds in Frontiers and he is more motivated than ever, regardless, the Opponents feats are important, true.........but when said opponent has nothing solid contradicting the blatant statements about fighting a Full Powered Super Sonic, that logic of yours starts to not matter anymore, unless you can bring me anything solid against Chaos being that strong

 

[JJSliderman]

Will just be classed as outliers I guess.

Sonic on his way to have as many “consistent outliers” as Spider-Man.

 

[Peptocoptr27]

I'm leaning toward agreeing but this does raise the question regarding Sonic in Generations beating him, and Shadow in Shadow Generations beating Metal Overlord who is arguably stronger than Perfect Chaos

and Infinite being stronger than both.
Euuh, I mean: No 1-C base form talk here! It's far beyond the scope of this already controversial topic.

 

[Omegabronic]

Oh yeah, I do wonder if this upgrade should aply to Finalhazard as well, since Super Sonic was impressed with its power despite having fought Perfect Chaos the game before.

nope, not solid enough, not enough support

again, please focus on the OP guys, i don't want this derailed

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If Chaos doesn't have an actual 1-C feat, he's not scaling to that level.

Dark Gaia is literally 1-C from a statement? I don't think the Titans or the End really have a 1-C feat either.

 

[Theuser789]

If we’re being technical, Time Eater is also scaling to 6-D off the emotional empowerment thing, otherwise he’s 5-D with 6-D Smurf hax.

We scale Time Eater hax to his AP, plus with Shadow Gens Doom Scaling, he might directly upscale from affecting the Hypertimeline because Doom is stopping it from healing.

 

[JJSliderman]

We scale Time Eater hax to his AP, plus with Shadow Gens Doom Scaling, he might directly upscale from affecting the Hypertimeline because Doom is stopping it from healing.

So is Black Doom just the strongest villain prior to The End

 

[Peptocoptr27]

We scale Time Eater hax to his AP, plus with Shadow Gens Doom Scaling, he might directly upscale from affecting the Hypertimeline because Doom is stopping it from healing.

Save that for part 2 of the Shadow Gens revisions. Not here.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Dark Gaia is literally 1-C from a statement? I don't think the Titans or the End really have a 1-C feat either.

Statements directly scaling one character to another are different from what I'm talking about (The End being stated to be above Sonic's past foes including Solaris and Dark Gaia scaling to a casual The End). It's not some vague "emotional empowerment" or "full power" statement (I don't like the "full power" one either because said power is determined by multiple factors, so it could just as easily be the "full power" that Sonic's able to draw out at that moment; it's just not consistent overall, especially when it results in stuff like potentially 1-C Finalhazard)

Didn't wanna respond further but I felt I should clarify

 

[Omegabronic]

Statements directly scaling one character to another are different from what I'm talking about (The End being stated to be above Sonic's past foes including Solaris and Dark Gaia scaling to a casual The End). It's not some vague "emotional empowerment"

again......this isn't vague

or "full power" statement (I don't like the "full power" one either because said power is determined by multiple factors, so it could just as easily be the "full power" that Sonic's able to draw out at that moment; it's just not consistent overall,

not really as it isn't talking about Sonic's capability to use their power, it is saying that he is using their full power overall, that is also clear by the other statement, stating that it doesn't matter HOW POWERFUL Super Sonic is, Chaos is simply way too powerful for him to harm in any way without the Arrow of light, aka EVEN HIS FULL POWER WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO HARM HIM

sorry for using all caps, but i think this is a very important point that is being ignored

especially when it results in stuff like potentially 1-C Finalhazard)

that literally doesn't happen

 

[Theuser789]

Snip

You're kinda repeating yourself here, Omega. Sonic can't just draw out the full power of the emeralds wherever he wants. If Super Sonic is at 2-C he just needs to draw more power of his 2-C form, not go all the way to 1-C. Plus Sonic does power himself up to harm Chaos, so I don't see the point of the argument.

Chaos has one statement from a secondary source, where does your numbers come from? The only thing you brought up that isn't emotional empowerement scaling is the Sonic Channel statement and Otherworld comedy. Time Eater has feats of him nuking the cosmology. All the characters you mentioned have statements in the actual games. Chaos only has secondary off-game sources.

A weaker Chaos being capable of one-shotting Base Sonic off-guard and by surprise isn't proof the Gens fight is an outlier. Chaos can fight against Sonic there and harm him, Mephiles shows off-guard Sonic can be one-shot. It just doesn't mean anything.

Chaos has entire fight contradicting his scaling. An actual in-game boss fight>>>statements from secondary sources.

I am thinking that if this thread goes through, of making a CRT to remove variable tier and just making Super Sonic change between eras.

 

[JJSliderman]

I am thinking that if this thread goes through, of making a CRT to remove variable tier and just making Super Sonic change between eras.

Please do, so much easier.

 

[Theuser789]

Also, if we're using statements from secondary media, there's two statements of Base Sonic fighting Chaos and not needing the emeralds to beat him. That trumps the singular "full power" statement.