Part II: Naruto LS statements

[Jvando]

Nobody has supplied an explanation for how Tsunade and A who are both travelling at lightspeed are somehow able to see their targets and accurately hit them.

And if they somehow moved their limbs while their entire bodies are already travelling at lightspeed, then wouldn't their attacks by FTL?

So far I haven't seen proof that they are actually in control of their actions while being transported by Mabui.

Or, Madara and Mu were in the path of their transportation.

Forget appeal to reality in this case because while realistically it would have been impossible Ay and Tsunade to notice Muu and Madara at the same time they were traveling (The light from the image of Madara and Muu would have reached their eyes at the same time as they arrived), if they noticed them from a distance away, it would simply be Relativistic for them to kick out before landing.

 

[Damage3245]

what light would hit them, Ay and tsunade are not even down yet.

This light, on the last panel of the preceding page.

From my perspective, this is the light signifying that the Raikage and Tsunade have arrived; and while Madara and Mu are surprised the pair of them attack and knock them back.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Jvando
I am reffering to them being shaped as a "lightning" while travelling similar to the pot thingy, not that they have literally no physical form. I do apologize for the confusion

again they lost the shape as they hit something, those things being madara and mu.

 

[Jvando]

@Jvando

I am reffering to them being shaped as a "lightning" while travelling similar to the pot thingy, not that they have literally no physical form. I do apologize for the confusion

Again, the lightning acts as a "tube" of sorts for them to transport to whatever the coordinates are. They aren't confined to a specific shape while moving.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@Rocker

Or, they hit the ground.

Hell they might have even stopped mid air.

Logic would also imply that they didnt lose the shape upon hitting them as they were clearly hitting them in their regular forms.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@Jvando

Okay thats fine i guess, but since we dont see them "Inside the tube" at the time they hit Mu and Madara there is no reason to assume they were LS at that point.

 

[AstralKing7]

The jar didn't stop mid air so let's not assume they did stop mid air when it's not their jutsu which they can control

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker
Or, they hit the ground.

Hell they might have even stopped mid air.

Logic would also imply that they didnt lose the shape upon hitting them as they were clearly hitting them in their regular forms.

There is not proof they are hitting them in their normal forms the only image we see of them is hitting madara and mu, the other time we saw it used the item only when back to its normal shape by hitting something.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@Astral

Indeed but lets also not assume that they suddenly changed their trajectory to hit Madara/Mu either then.

 

[AstralKing7]

But they did hit them before reaching the ground tbf which is what this current feat is being discussed for

 

[Rocker1189]

@Astral
Indeed but lets also not assume that they suddenly changed their trajectory to hit Madara/Mu either then.

even when we see on panel that the trajectory is changed even slightly? really?

 

[AstralKing7]

And now that I think about it Ay and Tsuande should have light speed reacting and perception

 

[MostPowerfull]

Or it may simply be because Madara and Muu are in front of a great "beam of light." Not because Tsunade and Ay touched the ground, as for example, occurred in the anime.

Even because, this does not hold.

If Tsunade and Ay do not know what is happening, just because they are being transported, you literally assume that Tsunade and Ay stepped on the battlefield, understood everything that is happening, surprised and hit Madara and Muu, before both were able to process the same as Tsunade and Ay.

 

[Jvando]

@Xulrev

You legit disregarded the important points I was making.

1) No discussion rule is being broken here.

• No one is going to be FTL or LS directly, at most Relativistic, so that discussion about Madara and Naruto being LS doesn't apply unless we can't even upgrade our characters to Sub-Rel to Rel now?

• The Databooks are being used in a case by case basis. There's a reason we aren't arguing LS Haku. This was legit discussed a bit in the first part of this thread

The claim that this thread is breaking and form of discussion rules is demonstrably false

 

[AstralKing7]

Oof that's report worthy for making false claims huh ƒÆǃÆǃÆÇ

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@Rocker

Yes, we see them hitting Madara and Mu, with their limbs which would be their physical form, either way, sure, if u want to argue it i guess it can be seen as "not enough proof of it" but the same goes to them hitting them in the lightning/tube form but unlike the other we have literally no evidence of it.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker
Yes, we see them hitting Madara and Mu, with their limbs which would be their physical form, either way, sure, if u want to argue it i guess it can be seen as "not enough proof of it" but the same goes to them hitting them in the lightning/tube form but unlike the other we have literally no evidence of it.

Except we do which is the anime. something above anything we can guess. and the first one has no proof either tbh.

 

[Jvando]

@Rocker

Yes, we see them hitting Madara and Mu, with their limbs which would be their physical form, either way, sure, if u want to argue it i guess it can be seen as "not enough proof of it" but the same goes to them hitting them in the lightning/tube form but unlike the other we have literally no evidence of it.

It's because we have not enough conclusive evidence that we use supplemental material in the form of the Anime and Databook statements to support our position. If only the Manga could only ever be used for evidence in a discussion, we would have threads that would last WAY longer than necessary.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@Rocker

Yes, the trajectory can change, sure thing. But why assume it did a sharp turn for Madara and Mu? Especially when the one controlling the technique is on the other side of the continent.

 

[Damage3245]

So is the primary argument for Tsunade and Mu hitting them at lightspeed now built on 'We didn't see them hit the ground first'?

And I guess we're saying that Tsunade has lightspeed senses & reactions to be able to hit Madara but is utterly incapable of reacting to Madara's sword piercing her from below?

This whole thing seems very inconsistent.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker
Yes, the trajectory can change, sure thing. But why assume it did a sharp turn for Madara and Mu? Especially when the one controlling the technique is on the other side of the continent.

Because they have a massive sensing network where they can directly tap into any one via telepathy to give them info. and mabui is literally right there. This netowrk is precise enough to sense individuals and their chakra and give info un their whereabouts unless they can evade sensing like Mu who was not doing so at that point.

 

[Damage3245]

Because they have a massive sensing network where they can directly tap into any one via telepathy to give them info. and mabui is literally right there. This netowrk is precise enough to sense individuals and their chakra and give info un their whereabouts unless they can evade sensing like Mu who was not doing so at that point.

People were complaining about me making assumptions before; but this is an even bigger one by far. FTL telepathy so that Mabui can be last-nanosecond adjustments to the destination of the jutsu?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That wood is clearly FTL then.

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

@Rocker

Yes that network is a thing, indeed.

But by going for "that route" u are now assuming that Shikaku is apparantly closely following Madara's movements while also having Mabui connected to the network and guiding her movement. Which is quite, ridiculous.

 

[Rocker1189]

People were complaining about me making assumptions before; but this is an even bigger one by far. FTL telepathy so that Mabui can be last-nanosecond adjustments to the destination of the jutsu?

Who said it was FTL, heack I was just answering a question about how it could be that mabui could dis Madara from continents away.

At the end of the day the least assumptions is using the anime. You say this as if I was using this as my point in the first place.

 

[Rocker1189]

So is the primary argument for Tsunade and Mu hitting them at lightspeed now built on 'We didn't see them hit the ground first'?
And I guess we're saying that Tsunade has lightspeed senses & reactions to be able to hit Madara but is utterly incapable of reacting to Madara's sword piercing her from below?

This whole thing seems very inconsistent.

We are not scaling tsunade or madara to light speed the best she would be getting is relavtivistic reactions, also you are saying that as if Madara did not react to the attack.

 

[Damage3245]

We are not scaling tsunade or madara to light speed the best she would be getting is relavtivistic reactions, also you are saying that as if Madara did not react to the attack.

Correct. As I've stated before my interpretation is that Madara did not react to them incoming at lightspeed; but just Tsunade's ordinary attack.

 

[AstralKing7]

Damage who said anything about FTL???

 

[Rocker1189]

Correct. As I've stated before my interpretation is that Madara did not react to them incoming at lightspeed; but just Tsunade's ordinary attack.

You misread what I said regardless of if she was light speed or not at that moment he reacted to her attack.

where we differ is that you bieleb she was not light speed based on the assumption she landed I beleive she was based on the fact that we are not shown her landing at any point and the anime supports them attack stright from the mabui transport.

 

[Damage3245]

The anime version doesn't even show them with the Ethetheal Transmission Jutsu aura around them. It is clearly not great on the details.

 

[AstralKing7]

Man if we aren't shown her landing nor Ays landing then she didn't land. We're sheon them going right into an attack

 

[Rocker1189]

The anime version doesn't even show them with the Ethetheal Transmission Jutsu aura around them. It is clearly not great on the details.

the brightness is literally the aura as they are kicking A and muu.

 

[Mindovin]

And I guess we're saying that Tsunade has lightspeed senses & reactions to be able to hit Madara but is utterly incapable of reacting to Madara's sword piercing her from below?

This whole thing seems very inconsistent.

That was a suprise attack after Gokage though they sealed him.

Edit:

Colored

 

[MostPowerfull]

Well, with Mindovin bringing the color scan, it's obvious that Tsunade and Ay were with the help of Mabui's jutsu.

 

[AstralKing7]

Oof that's the attack damage was talking about???

Madara was thought to be defeated they didn't even know that was his real body in the wood

 

[Damage3245]

Well, with Mindovin bringing the color scan, it's obvious that Tsunade and Ay were with the help of Mabui's jutsu.

How so? It was never disputed that there was an aura around them.

 

[Jvando]

The anime version doesn't even show them with the Ethetheal Transmission Jutsu aura around them. It is clearly not great on the details.

Supporting. Evidence.

Every assertion you have made against this has been all assumption based with nothing else to back up the claim. It leads down a hole of more assumptions to somehow justify your position, some of which I would consider to be reaches.

The idea that they landed directly in front of Madara and Muu is unsubstantiated because, I'll reiterate, if Kishimoto wanted to show them appearing right in front of Madara and Muu, there would be a much much simpler way of displaying this.


The "lightning bolt" would have literally just appeared right in front of them like it did in this scan. If the idea that they appeared right in front of Madara and Muu was to be true, that is what you would be expected to see. He legit shows us this once, why would he use such a convoluted and round about means of showing this? He legit shows us this form of transportation before, so you would expect to see it again is Ay and Tsunade were aimed directly at the ground.

 

[Damage3245]

> The idea that they landed directly in front of Madara and Muu is unsubstantiated because, I'll reiterate, if Kishimoto wanted to show them appearing right in front of Madara and Muu, there would be a much much simpler way of displaying this.

I can't speak for Kishimoto. I don't know why he would draw the panels the way he does.

Quite possibly he thought having the first panel of their appearance be the impact of their attacks would be better then showing them appearing on the ground first and then attacking.

The other interpretation relies on the assumption that Tsunade and Ay could somehow percieve their targets while moving at the speed of light, and could somehow change either their trajectories or themselves while under the effect of a jutsu they have no control over.

 

[Rocker1189]

Or that mabui just directed them at madara and mu at the moment of leaving.

 

[Damage3245]

Or that mabui just directed them at madara and mu at that moment.

Indeed. That is also an additional possible assumption.

If we're diving that deeply though, we could also assume that she just stopped the jutsu when they were right on top of Madara & Mu, and then the two of them attacked while not moving at lightspeed.