Ozpin revision.

[Spinoirr]

"False equivalence as she makes fire out of her hands as opposed to having an arrow that’s just on fire because of oil."

Again. That is not fire. That is her Dust.

"You mean the fight where she’s shown to fly around alongside with Raven where there’s no indication of that during the fight between Ozpin and Cinder prior to the boost she gets?"

Yes, the same fight where she uses the exact same bubble shield of fire that you are arguing is some sort of powerup despite demonstrating no notable change in power in either fight

"heat makes fire, and why are we assuming she’s using maiden powers for her fire blades and not her semblance of just making superheated blades? Can you provide examples or not?"

Cool? She's never shown the ability to directly project fire with her semblance nor are there any examples in the show of her doing so. And im not sure if you understood what you just said because she does in fact use her semblance to make her blades by superheating the Dust in her clothing and shaping it into her swords/bow and arrows.



At 1:25 and 3:34

The glowing parts of her clothes is the Dust woven into it that she is superheating to shape into weapons with her semblance.

 

[Theglassman12]

@DaReaperMan can you refer to what scene you're pointing at exactly because all the clashes I see doesn't imply any actual flight Cinder's doing there. Also no I'm not I'm asking for proof that this fight has the same exact issues that the Pyrrha vs Cinder fight has with the animation errors, you haven't provided with a single one that backs your point up to the same extent as the Pyrrha fight.

@Spinoirr So you proved my point by saying she's using fire, her using dust or her semblance being heat related doesn't change the fact she can still make fire without the maiden powers in the first place. You mean the fight where she's fighting another maiden who can do the exact same abilities as her compared to a dude who had to resort to using a shield to keep up with her only for it to end in him dying in the end? That's not a good comparison. So if she can make her weapons easily and fire heat it through dust why are we assuming that fire abilities are exclusive to maidens again when you're just providing more evidence she can do both without the maiden powers?

@SilentLyfe that's not how this works, you need to provide examples just like your Pyrrha fight that there's blatant animation errors in regards to that one fight alone, saying another fight has animation errors in the same season making the other fights automatically not legit in consistency is absurd without any actual evidence to back it up being a consistent thing across every single fight in the season.

Explain how it's not a good reason when Watts uses this exact same flaw on Cinder in Volume 8 and she couldn't remotely debunk him? If she had to stop interrogating him because he exposed how arrogant and simple minded she is this late into the series it's safe to say even she admits she has a problem with this and doesn't know how to control it. Your explanation of it not being a good example just proves my point even further when you said she wants to flaunt it even further.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I can grab those real quick but I want to ask you something first: why should we humor your stonewalling?

Honestly with most of your arguments your just playing dumb, "you said she uses heat to burn stuff so I'm right your wrong" is basically the gist of what you said to Spin, even though, like, a ton of heat is gonna burn things. Have you like, not done anything Culinary to not know that?

 

[SilentLyfe]

@SilentLyfe that's not how this works, you need to provide examples just like your Pyrrha fight that there's blatant animation errors in regards to that one fight alone, saying another fight has animation errors in the same season making the other fights automatically not legit in consistency is absurd without any actual evidence to back it up being a consistent thing across every single fight in the season.

Explain how it's not a good reason when Watts uses this exact same flaw on Cinder in Volume 8 and she couldn't remotely debunk him? If she had to stop interrogating him because he exposed how arrogant and simple minded she is this late into the series it's safe to say even she admits she has a problem with this and doesn't know how to control it. Your explanation of it not being a good example just proves my point even further when you said she wants to flaunt it even further.

The Pyrrha fight is an example because it is not only a very similar battle of her fighting someone after gaining her powers, it, as I keep telling you, literally takes place in the exact same episode a few minutes apart. That can't just be waved away as "its a different fight" when they're so close together. This one even happens in between the fights. Again, why would the fight with Oz be the only one consistent when Pyrrha's, which takes place right after, isn't? There is no one or the other. Either they are both or not. I've given blatant examples of the inconsistency that puts the whole Oz fight into question. You haven't given a reason why this one would be the only one consistent with the glow other than saying "its a different fight" or "different animation", which is not sufficient enough.

Because that arrogance was due to getting the Maiden powers and believing that she was unstoppable. But after losing in Haven and Atlas proved she wasn't, that's why she couldn't refute it and Watts was able to get through. Before that she didn't even listen when he told her at Raven's camp, and always showed off her Maiden powers.

 

[Spinoirr]

"So you proved my point by saying she's using fire, her using dust or her semblance being heat related doesn't change the fact she can still make fire without the maiden powers in the first place."

How did any of what i said imply that she is using fire? She is not capable of generating outright fire with her semblance and her Dust is explosive, not fire. It acts different then her fire magic, as it leaves broken prices on the ground that blow up and that doesn't would like fire magic to me

"You mean the fight where she's fighting another maiden who can do the exact same abilities as her compared to a dude who had to resort to using a shield to keep up with her only for it to end in him dying in the end?"

Not sure why that matters when the point here is that she used the same fire bubble in both fights and wasnt hown to get stronger from doing so in either fight.

"That's not a good comparison. So if she can make her weapons easily and fire heat it through dust why are we assuming that fire abilities are exclusive to maidens again when you're just providing more evidence she can do both without the maiden powers?"

Because she cant make fire? I dont think you understand that heat =/= fire. There is no evidence whatsoever that she can directly generate fire with her semblance.

At this point its painfully obvious that youre either playing dumb or just being willfully ignorant of the topic at hand. You claimed that she is using fire without the maiden powers, I provided scans, broke down her fight scenes, and gave explanations of her abilities backed up by in-universe descriptions and evidence, all proving that she does not use fire (instead explosions, it's like saying bakugo has fire manipulation), and all youve done is ignore everything that was said and continue to claim that she can use fire when you know full well she cant.

 

[Antvasima]

@SomebodyData @Sir_Ovens @DarkDragonMedeus @ElixirBlue @Zaratthustra

Would you be willing to help out here please?

Also, can each side explain their arguments in easy to understand manners, please?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, a few people need to chill out here. Accusing someone of "Playing dumb" is rather harsh.

But based on my knowledge, Cinder's semblance is more or less that she can function like a human gas stove. She can produce fire by burning things or causing a combustion, but she cannot bend fire per say or manipulate it for true combat applicable purposes. She can only do that with the Maiden powers she obtains. I'm still thinking Spinoirr and SilentLyfe are making sense here.

 

[Spinoirr]

'Also, can each side explain their arguments in easy to understand manners, please?"

Simply put, Cinder does not have fire manipulation without her Maiden powers. Her semblance is heat manipulation, not fire manipulation. she can set things on fire with her semblance but cannot directly manipulate or project fire:

Scorching Caress

Scorching Caress,[1] is the Semblance of Cinder Fall. With it she can superheat objects and alter their shape. Cinder is first seen using her Semblance in "Ruby Rose" when she causes the ground underneath Ruby Rose and Glynda Goodwitch to explode, specifically via super heating Bright Orange...

rwby.fandom.com

For context, here is the clip in question:



What Glassman is mistaking for Cinder having fire manipulation in the early volumes is Cinder using her semblance to superheat the elemental Dust that is woven into her clothing to use as a flaming projectile, as evidenced by the glowing parts of her dress which is indicative of her doing so.

Dust

For the World of Remnant episode of the same name, see Dust (WoR episode). Dust is a source of energy in Remnant. The physical properties of Dust make it incredibly useful for a variety of purposes, particularly in the weapons of many characters in the series. It is known to make a distinctive...

rwby.fandom.com

Here is her doing so in a later episode to create weapons from the Dust in her clothing, at 1:25 and 3:34



Here is a lore dump mini-episode that confirms that weaving Dust into clothing is a thing that people do, at 1:33:



And here is an episode where it is further confirmed that weaving Dust into clothing is a thing that people do, at 2:23:

Chapter 8: Field Trip - RWBY - S2E8 - Rooster Teeth

Team RWBY is back and ready for their second semester at Beacon, an academy that trains the world's strongest fighters. But real life doesn't stop. Between classes and homework, they still have to findtime to save the world. And between the White Fang, Roman Torchwick, and a mysterious new trio...

roosterteeth.com

In addition, the Maidens as a concept in RWBY did not exist until season 3, whereas all of these clips are from Seasons 1 and 2

To summarize: Cinder doesnt have fire manipulation without her Maiden powers, which didnt even exist until season 3, two seasons after she had already showcased and established her abilities. Her semblance is heat manipulation, and what is being interpreted as fire manipulation is just her heating the Dust in her dress to use as projectiles.

 

[SilentLyfe]

Also, can each side explain their arguments in easy to understand manners, please?

Basically, the basis of the OP is that Ozpin should scale to Maiden Cinder due to their fight in Volume 3. However, the argument against that is that he doesn't scale, as she wasn't using Maiden powers during the fight due to the lack of glow, only doing so at the end.

I refuted that by bringing up her fight with Pyrrha, which took place a few minutes later in the same episode, was full of instances of her using her Maiden powers without the glow, with this one even happening between fights. Not only that, but the part of the end was not her going into Maiden form, but merely increasing the output of her fire, which she demonstrated in her fight with Raven.

Because of that, we cannot say that her fight with Oz was the only one consistent. Either both of them are, or they both are not. And because Pyrrha's was full of inconsistency, it puts Oz's into question, in that we can't say she wasn't using them against Oz based on the lack of glow.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Spinoirr and SilentLyfe seem to make sense above.

 

[SilentLyfe]

So what is left on the issue? Is it fine?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that what has been accepted can probably be applied now, yes.

 

[SilentLyfe]

I think that what has been accepted can probably be applied now, yes.

Alright, it should be done now. I don't think there is anything left to do here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is it fine for the rest of you if we close this thread then?

 

[ElixirBlue]

If everything is good, than that’s fine. Before the thread is closed, I want to make sure of 1 thing. Isn’t it canon Cinder’s clothes were laced with Dust in the first 3 Volumes? Isn’t that why her clothes glowed during episode 1 while she was using dust to fight Glynda?

 

[SilentLyfe]

If everything is good, than that’s fine. Before the thread is closed, I want to make sure of 1 thing. Isn’t it canon Cinder’s clothes were laced with Dust in the first 3 Volumes? Isn’t that why her clothes glowed during episode 1 while she was using dust to fight Glynda?

It was. Maidens didn’t exist back then so it wasn’t magic. Spinoirr explains it here:

'Also, can each side explain their arguments in easy to understand manners, please?"

Simply put, Cinder does not have fire manipulation without her Maiden powers. Her semblance is heat manipulation, not fire manipulation. she can set things on fire with her semblance but cannot directly manipulate or project fire:

Scorching Caress

Scorching Caress,[1] is the Semblance of Cinder Fall. With it she can superheat objects and alter their shape. Cinder is first seen using her Semblance in "Ruby Rose" when she causes the ground underneath Ruby Rose and Glynda Goodwitch to explode, specifically via super heating Bright Orange...

rwby.fandom.com

For context, here is the clip in question:



What Glassman is mistaking for Cinder having fire manipulation in the early volumes is Cinder using her semblance to superheat the elemental Dust that is woven into her clothing to use as a flaming projectile, as evidenced by the glowing parts of her dress which is indicative of her doing so.

Dust

For the World of Remnant episode of the same name, see Dust (WoR episode). Dust is a source of energy in Remnant. The physical properties of Dust make it incredibly useful for a variety of purposes, particularly in the weapons of many characters in the series. It is known to make a distinctive...

rwby.fandom.com

Here is her doing so in a later episode to create weapons from the Dust in her clothing, at 1:25 and 3:34



Here is a lore dump mini-episode that confirms that weaving Dust into clothing is a thing that people do, at 1:33:



And here is an episode where it is further confirmed that weaving Dust into clothing is a thing that people do, at 2:23:

Chapter 8: Field Trip - RWBY - S2E8 - Rooster Teeth

Team RWBY is back and ready for their second semester at Beacon, an academy that trains the world's strongest fighters. But real life doesn't stop. Between classes and homework, they still have to findtime to save the world. And between the White Fang, Roman Torchwick, and a mysterious new trio...

roosterteeth.com

In addition, the Maidens as a concept in RWBY did not exist until season 3, whereas all of these clips are from Seasons 1 and 2

To summarize: Cinder doesnt have fire manipulation without her Maiden powers, which didnt even exist until season 3, two seasons after she had already showcased and established her abilities. Her semblance is heat manipulation, and what is being interpreted as fire manipulation is just her heating the Dust in her dress to use as projectiles.

 

[ElixirBlue]

It was. Maidens didn’t exist back then so it wasn’t magic. Spinoirr explains it here:

I meant, I remember a statement or someone on staff pointing out Cinder had her clothes laced with Dust.

 

[SilentLyfe]

I meant, I remember a statement or someone on staff pointing out Cinder had her clothes laced with Dust.

I don't know about that, but it was pointed out in Volume 2 that she was using Dust infused clothing here. Ruby says that her clothes lit up whenever she attacked, with Ironwood stating that it was Dust infused clothing.

 

[Spinoirr]

"I meant, I remember a statement or someone on staff pointing out Cinder had her clothes laced with Dust."
She does yes, i addressed that in my response above as well

 

[ElixirBlue]

Ok, I thought the argument of Episode 1 whether Cinder was using Dust or Maiden powers could've been cleared up with Dust infused clothing.

Well, that wraps my minor concern.

 

[Theglassman12]

I’ll pick up this topic at a later date when I’m free, gonna be busy with a project I’ve been doing on the site for 2 months now. I assume this thread is done?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes.

Although I'm not looking forward to the CRT you'll make that most likely brings up the same points, but I hope you can prove my suspicions on that matter wrong

 

[Theglassman12]

alright, closing.