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Ozpin revision.

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"she does use fire without maiden powers. The first episode literally has her do that."

No, she doesnt, she uses heated dust projectiles, dust explosions, and heat manipulation, she never once uses fire

Here is the entire fight, cinder comes in at 3:49. She never uses any fire attacks. In order she uses three blasts of Dust (and it is in fact dust instead of fire because of the splattering effect and her using it to make an explosion on the ground afterwards) and the AoE incinerates the rocks around her with her semblance (and it is her semblance instead of heat as it has the same incineration effects as pyrrha when she got incinerated by cinder's semblance).
 
Sir_Ovens said:
Upon watching the Ozpin fight again, I see that she conjures up ice. She doesn't use ice Dust so I think it's likely that she was using Maiden powers against Ozpin.
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Yeah, she never in the series or the guidebook say she uses ice dust, so she is definitely useing madien powers in her fight with Ozpin
 
So have you reached a conclusion here then?
 
Okay. Which staff members agree then?
 
Okay. I suppose that this is probably fine to apply then, but we should wait a bit for @Theglassman12 first, in order to make certain.
 
@SilentLyfe so explain why she powered up in the middle of the fight with Ozpin if she already powered up in the first place? She wouldn’t need to power up during the fight unless she reverted to base form and then powered up after realizing she needs more than her base self to kill Ozpin.

@DaReaperMan what does the maidens not existing have to do with my point about her using fire?

@Spinoirr you literally see fire from her hands, that’s not normal heat manipulation when she can use fire.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@SilentLyfe so explain why she powered up in the middle of the fight with Ozpin if she already powered up in the first place? She wouldn’t need to power up during the fight unless she reverted to base form and then powered up after realizing she needs more than her base self to kill Ozpin.

@DaReaperMan what does the maidens not existing have to do with my point about her using fire?
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Basically, you don't have a counter and try and push the same old point and stonewall.

Because, lo and behold, the in-between time from Volume 2 to Volume 3 isn't Volume 1. It was an idea made AFTER Volume 2 ended, IE, fire usage from Volumes 1 and 2 quite literally mean nothing because Maidens literally didn't exist at that time and as such any examples from either Volume are complete and utter non-argument.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@SilentLyfe so explain why she powered up in the middle of the fight with Ozpin if she already powered up in the first place? She wouldn’t need to power up during the fight unless she reverted to base form and then powered up after realizing she needs more than her base self to kill Ozpin.
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Because she didn’t go from base to Maiden but merely increase the intensity of her fire to kill Ozpin. Maidens are capable of increasing the output of their elements. We see this later with her fight against Raven. The two are in Maiden form for the entire fight and as they clash in midair, they increase their power and cause a elemental vortex around them.

Again it is a bigger assumption to believe that after powering up to engage Ozpin, she for some reason reverted back to base during their fight.
 
@DaReaperMan No explain how the hell maidens not being a thing back in Volume 1 debunk my point that she uses fire abilities in Volume 1? You’re not making any sense here.

@SilentLyfe How is it an assumption when you literally see a power up and a visible eye change for Cinder in the fight? That fight you use for reference has the eye glow the entire time while this one shows it after a clear power up.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@SilentLyfe How is it an assumption when you literally see a power up and a visible eye change for Cinder in the fight? That fight you use for reference has the eye glow the entire time while this one shows it after a clear power up.
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Because there is no consistency with the glow between her fight with Oz and Pyrrha. I literally showed you all the instances where she was using her Maiden powers without the glow. It was only made consistent starting from Volume 5 which is why her fight with Raven and any she has after are constant for her glow.

That is why it is an assumption because not only are you are stating that her fight with Oz was the only one consistent with the glow, but she decided for some reason to revert to base fighting Oz even though we saw her power up before she engaged him.
 
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"No explain how the hell maidens not being a thing back in Volume 1 debunk my point that she uses fire abilities in Volume 1? You’re not making any sense here."

It was literally stated in the volume 3 commentary that the maidens as a concept were created between volumes 2 and 3, they did not exist as a story element before then. And Cinder did not use any fire powers in volume 1, only heat and dust. (Fire dust if you bring that up and her shooting fire in vol 1 is her useing fire dust like how Hazel fires lightning from his hands or sets his hands on fire useing dust)

"How is it an assumption when you literally see a power up and a visible eye change for Cinder in the fight? That fight you use for reference has the eye glow the entire time while this one shows it after a clear power up."



At 1:13 both cinder and raven start doing the exact same thing that cinder did against oz despite both of them using their maiden powers the entire fight beforehand. She is not powering up.
 
You guys aren’t understanding my point. You guys said Cinder hasn’t used fire powers before and I’m bringing up the fact you literally see her using fire abilities in Volume 1. What the hell does that have anything to do with the Maidens not being a thing back then because fire abilities still exist.

@SilentLyfe The power up that has the floating elements around her which btw you do see her power down prior to the fight at the 1:18 mark so yes she did power down before she fought Ozpin.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@SilentLyfe The power up that has the floating elements around her which btw you do see her power down prior to the fight at the 1:18 mark so yes she did power down before she fought Ozpin.
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As I said, the floating elements around her are her increasing the output as we see her do in her battle with Raven. And you didn’t explain why you think her fight with Oz is supposedly the only one consistent with the glow when it isn’t later against Pyrrha, and why she would for some reason go to base when she is literally about to fight Oz.
 
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"You guys aren’t understanding my point. You guys said Cinder hasn’t used fire powers before and I’m bringing up the fact you literally see her using fire abilities in Volume 1. What the hell does that have anything to do with the Maidens not being a thing back then because fire abilities still exist."

What are you referring to exactly? Cinder literally only makes two appearances in volume 1 and only has one fight scene which has already been brought up and explained as her not using fire.
 
@SilentLyfe I literally showed you a clip of her reverting to base prior to the fight. Unless you have any statements where she was always in maiden state when fighting Ozpin and not just at the very end when she blew up his shield I don’t see why this would scale to him.

@Spinoirr the first first fight she literally makes fire with her semblance powers. This is before she even gets the maiden powers so her using fire against Ozpin doesn’t prove she’s in maiden form when she can use fire prior to gaining the full maiden powers
 
Theglassman12 said:
@SilentLyfe I literally showed you a clip of her reverting to base prior to the fight. Unless you have any statements where she was always in maiden state when fighting Ozpin and not just at the very end when she blew up his shield I don’t see why this would scale to him.
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And I've literally been showing you examples of the inconsistency of the glow between the fights, and that her giant flame at the end was her increasing the output, not going into Maiden form.

So again, why do you think that her fight with Oz is the only one consistent with the glow, but not with Pyrrha? Because at this point, we're going in circles. This whole argument of Oz not scaling to Cinder because she wasn't using her Maiden powers is based on the lack of glow. But we can't say the lack of glow in her fight means she wasn't using them because she did so against Pyrrha with no glow. If the two fights were consistent, in that she always had the glow when using Maiden powers, then I wouldn't have a problem. However they're not, and because of it, the argument falls apart.
 
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Because we have some form of continuity in the fight as opposed to the Pyrrha fight. Prior to the fight you literally see Cinder go from Maiden mode to base mode where she just has the power vanish, and after that she decides to fight Ozpin. Once we see the fight we still see her using her base form and she powers up again and we see the glow once more. This isn't comparable to the Pyrrha fight as we've seen some consistency between the events as opposed to flat out animation errors like forgetting to have the glowing eyes when it's supposed to be there.
 
"the first first fight she literally makes fire with her semblance powers. This is before she even gets the maiden powers so her using fire against Ozpin doesn’t prove she’s in maiden form when she can use fire prior to gaining the full maiden powers"

Gonna just copy paste my reply here since it seems you missed it:



Here is the entire fight, cinder comes in at 3:49. She never uses any fire magic attacks. In order she uses three blasts of Dust (and it is in fact dust instead of fire because of the splattering effect and her using it to make an explosion on the ground afterwards) and the AoE incinerates the rocks around her with her semblance (and it is her semblance instead of fire as it has the same incineration effects as pyrrha when she got incinerated by cinder's semblance).

If youre referring to the explosions sue makes thats literally a property of her Dust, she did the same thing in the fight with Amber

So no, she did not use fire powers in this fight, she used her semblance's heat manip and explosive Dust.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Because we have some form of continuity in the fight as opposed to the Pyrrha fight. Prior to the fight you literally see Cinder go from Maiden mode to base mode where she just has the power vanish, and after that she decides to fight Ozpin. Once we see the fight we still see her using her base form and she powers up again and we see the glow once more. This isn't comparable to the Pyrrha fight as we've seen some consistency between the events as opposed to flat out animation errors like forgetting to have the glowing eyes when it's supposed to be there.
Click to expand...
How is it a form of continuity when the fights literally take place in the same episode a couple minutes apart from each other? The fact that happens means you can’t pick and choose saying only this one is consistent while the other isn’t. Either they both are or they’re not.

And because of that, it is still a bigger stretch to say that she for some reason decided to go back to base before engaging Oz when it’s more definite that she was in Maiden form the whole fight, with the part at the end her increasing the output as she does later.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm not really sure what Glass is trying to argue tbh.
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I believe the crux of the argument Theglassman12 is presenting is that Ozpin can’t scale to Cinder with Maiden powers because there was no glow in the fight. However, that argument fall apart because her fight with Pyrrha, which takes place a few minutes later in the same episode, is full of many instances of her using them without the glow. As such, it is impossible to say that only her fight with Oz is consistent with the glow when its not with Pyrrha, and that she wasn't using them against Oz.
 
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@Spinoirr Are you going to ignore the part where she starts firing her blasts and you literally see a trail of fire being made? Because that debunks your entire argument on her never having fire abilities prior.

@SilentLyfe first off you’re ignoring a key difference between the fights. In the cinder Ozpin fight you literally see Cimder power down from her maiden powers to her base form when going to fight Ozpin. What about this is remotely an animation error in the same vein as her eye glow not being in the animation for a split second? You cannot compare the fights to each other and say they’re both inconsistent with the animation when you blatantly see Cinder power down in the first fight following with an entire fight with Ozpin that leads to her powering up again and you seeing her eye glow at the end as opposed to the Pyrrha fight where there’s no showings of her powering down yet still in maiden form.

@DarkDragonMedeus I’m arguing Cinder wasn’t in maiden form the entire fight, she literally powers up at the end against Ozpin which you clearly see in the end on top of the fact you see her power down to base form prior to fighting Ozpin, they’re saying she uses fire abilities which isn’t possible for Cinder prior to getting the maiden powers despite you seeing Volume 1 Cinder using fire abilities.
 
"Are you going to ignore the part where she starts firing her blasts and you literally see a trail of fire being made? Because that debunks your entire argument on her never having fire abilities prior."

Again, thats not fire, thats her semblance superheating the explosive dust that she uses as projectiles. Thats like saying that firing a flaming arrow from a bow means that the archer has innate fire manipulation. I'm saying she didn't use fire MAGIC there

"I’m arguing Cinder wasn’t in maiden form the entire fight, she literally powers up at the end against Ozpin which you clearly see in the end on top of the fact you see her power down to base form prior to fighting Ozpin"

And the fight between Cinder and Raven completely debunks that argument as she does the exact same thing despite using her maiden powers the entire time.

"they’re saying she uses fire abilities which isn’t possible for Cinder prior to getting the maiden powers despite you seeing Volume 1 Cinder using fire abilities."

Correct, because the Maiden powers didnt exist until volume 3 while Cinder's semblance has existed since volume 1, ergo youre assuming that she's using fire manipulation based on visuals without any further context when, in context, her main method of attacking is literally just heat and superheated explosive projectiles (she even had that explosion manipulation before she got the maiden powers in cannon anyways and the left overs of that fire dust blew up on the ground with her semblance)

Edit: watched it in slow mode and You see her drawing the Dust out of her dress like she does in every other combat scene in the first three volumes before her maiden powers.
 
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Theglassman12 said:
@SilentLyfe first off you’re ignoring a key difference between the fights. In the cinder Ozpin fight you literally see Cimder power down from her maiden powers to her base form when going to fight Ozpin. What about this is remotely an animation error in the same vein as her eye glow not being in the animation for a split second? You cannot compare the fights to each other and say they’re both inconsistent with the animation when you blatantly see Cinder power down in the first fight following with an entire fight with Ozpin that leads to her powering up again and you seeing her eye glow at the end as opposed to the Pyrrha fight where there’s no showings of her powering down yet still in maiden form.
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And you're ignoring the fact that because the fight with Pyrrha was inconsistent that it calls her fight with Oz into question. Again, the fights took place literally a few minutes between each other, you cannot say that only her fight with Oz was consistent and not Pyrrha's. Not only that, the animation errors weren't for split seconds, they all took place multiple times throughout the fight.

Also, you never explained why Cinder would for some reason power down when she's about to engage Oz. And before you say because characters do dumb shit, that's not a good enough explanation to it simply being an animation error as we see throughout the episode. Finally, you keep stating that she only powered up at the end, which isn't the case as I keep explaining that is her merely increasing the output of her fire, which is something she did in her fight with Raven.
 
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@Spinoirr False equivalence as she makes fire out of her hands as opposed to having an arrow that’s just on fire because of oil.

You mean the fight where she’s shown to fly around alongside with Raven where there’s no indication of that during the fight between Ozpin and Cinder prior to the boost she gets?

heat makes fire, and why are we assuming she’s using maiden powers for her fire blades and not her semblance of just making superheated blades? Can you provide examples or not?

@SilentLyfe Explain how Ozpin’s is called to question when those are two completely different fight with different animation? Them being a few minutes apart doesn’t change the fight that they’re animated in two separate occasions and one has continuity while the other lacks it.

Because Cinder is arrogant in thinking she can take on Ozpin? That’s not out of line for someone like Cinder when she’s constantly shown being overconfident in her abilities to the point she underestimates her foes and pays the price. Debunk the fact that she literally powers down to base mode and is still in maiden mode by giving me any commentary or behind the scenes stuff where she’s still in maiden mode and I’ll concede.
 
Just remembered that its not just the world of remnant that they say she dust is used in clothes sometimes, its outright mentioned in the show that thats what cinder's doing, using dust woven into her clothes that she can manipulate at will with her semblance
 
By the way I do think you're grasping at the hay bale at this point Glass, "but they're different fights" means like, nothing. Cinder literally did the exact same thing you said she was "powering up"' with it. This goes past continuity and into you just making shit up (continuity arguments) to have an argument.
 
The scene where they mentioned cinder useing fire dust in her clothes
roosterteeth.com

Chapter 8: Field Trip - RWBY - S2E8 - Rooster Teeth

Team RWBY is back and ready for their second semester at Beacon, an academy that trains the world's strongest fighters. But real life doesn't stop. Between classes and homework, they still have to findtime to save the world. And between the White Fang, Roman Torchwick, and a mysterious new trio...
roosterteeth.com roosterteeth.com
2:26

Ruby: I... I don't know. She was wearing a mask, and she never said anything to me. But I know she fought with glass. I don't think that was her Semblance, though. Her clothing lit up whenever she attacked.

Glynda: Save for the glass, that sounds like the woman I fought the night we met Ruby.

Ironwood: Embedding Dust into clothing is an age-old technique. It could have been anyone.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@SilentLyfe Explain how Ozpin’s is called to question when those are two completely different fight with different animation? Them being a few minutes apart doesn’t change the fight that they’re animated in two separate occasions and one has continuity while the other lacks it.

Because Cinder is arrogant in thinking she can take on Ozpin? That’s not out of line for someone like Cinder when she’s constantly shown being overconfident in her abilities to the point she underestimates her foes and pays the price. Debunk the fact that she literally powers down to base mode and is still in maiden mode by giving me any commentary or behind the scenes stuff where she’s still in maiden mode and I’ll concede.
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It does call into question because of the fact that if it is inconsistent regarding it in one fight its likely that they would be in the other one. It cannot be one or the other. Either they're both consistent or not. And because Pyrrha's was inconsistent its points to Oz being it as well.

Also, arrogance is not a good enough explanation considering that this is also Cinder who wants power by any means and loves to flaunt it all the time. The fact that after gaining the Maiden powers she wouldn't use them to fight Oz is absurd.
 
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