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Because im currently at work and unable to do soRegisNex1232 said:
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Overwatch Downgrades: Part II
- Thread starter MrKingOfNegativity
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I literally gave an entire massive list of who.scales to who and why they scale in the previous thread
Highlighted the bit you missed there.
If you're unable to support your claims within a reasonable amount of time, stop making them. We've already been waiting for nearly half a month since you originally made those claims, and you're bringing them up again and pulling the "I'm busy" card.
You're obviously not too busy to post these claims for hours on end and respond at a rapid pace. Take some time, stop posting, then come back with a coherent argument, for the last time.
I've been too accommodating towards this discussion, honestly. If you're going to circulate the same claims over a period of weeks without proving them the claims ought to be dropped.
Highlighted the bit you missed there.
If you're unable to support your claims within a reasonable amount of time, stop making them. We've already been waiting for nearly half a month since you originally made those claims, and you're bringing them up again and pulling the "I'm busy" card.
You're obviously not too busy to post these claims for hours on end and respond at a rapid pace. Take some time, stop posting, then come back with a coherent argument, for the last time.
I've been too accommodating towards this discussion, honestly. If you're going to circulate the same claims over a period of weeks without proving them the claims ought to be dropped.
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I literally gave a huge list of who scales to who and why with evidence as tonwhy theybscale in the last thread
Try to bar an argument from being made before it has a chance to be and in will report you to Ant
Try to bar an argument from being made before it has a chance to be and in will report you to Ant
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Okay, this is getting a bit unpleasant. Why not just take things one by one and start with one character like Lucio? It's not like the world will end tomorrow if this isn't finished immediately.
Though it's important to follow up well after making claims.
Though it's important to follow up well after making claims.
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I can't find any such list, please link it. Or just copy + paste some part of it so we can actually have a discussion.WeeklyBattles said:
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I will gladly do so when I get home in 20 minutes
Also i like how you acknowledge the in game lore events as canon but don't acknowledge the stuff that happens in them as canon
Also i like how you acknowledge the in game lore events as canon but don't acknowledge the stuff that happens in them as canon
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Alright, take your time.
I acknowledge the special events (Uprising, etc) as canon as they're an explicit crossover of gameplay and story, where the story validates stuff that happens in the game through a tie-in comic as opposed to the other way around.
tl, dr: I acknowledge stuff in the story that just happens to overlap with the game as canon. That does not mean the game is canon.
I acknowledge the special events (Uprising, etc) as canon as they're an explicit crossover of gameplay and story, where the story validates stuff that happens in the game through a tie-in comic as opposed to the other way around.
tl, dr: I acknowledge stuff in the story that just happens to overlap with the game as canon. That does not mean the game is canon.
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I thought Overwatch was a game primarily
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@Andy It is, which makes me genuinely confused as to why we're removing the game from the game
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Yet you claim that feats that happen in the story modes are non-canonDargoo Faust said:
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Because the game has a story that they seperate from the game, and explained that they do so.WeeklyBattles said:
They don't tell their story through the game. The most you see is the occasional story-event that already has a tie-in comic for canonicity.
There are no "story modes". There are story-themed events that have the actual story told through a comic.WeeklyBattles said:
The gameplay isn't canon. We've already had this song and dance, it contradicts what we see in the story, the writers are telling us it isn't canon.
By the way, it's been twenty minutes. Are you posting evidence or not?
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I got held up and am just getting home, be patient
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Alright, let me propose this:
How about we have a proper debate, moderated by a third party, at a specified time where we're both available to talk and have time to gather sources beforehand?
We can present findings and any stuff we actually agree on here, and probably get some legitimate work out of the way instead of retreading old ground repeatedly.
How about we have a proper debate, moderated by a third party, at a specified time where we're both available to talk and have time to gather sources beforehand?
We can present findings and any stuff we actually agree on here, and probably get some legitimate work out of the way instead of retreading old ground repeatedly.
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Nah, im writing out the list right now
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Eh, was worth a shot.
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Genji, McCree, Reaper, and Moira all scale to each other via Blackwatch
Genji, Tracer, Mercy, and Winston scale to each other via Overwatch strike team from Storm Rising
Tracer, Mercy, and Torb scale to each other from Uprising, with Rein being stronger than them
Brigitte scales to Genji via constantly fighting each other
Tracer scales to Genji via constantly fighting each other in the past
Hanzo scales to Genji via fighting
Ashe scales to McCree
Widow scales to Tracer and Winston via fighting them and to Reaper via scaling
I recall seeing a 9-A calc for pharah some time ago
Sombra scales to Widow and was able to harm Zarya
Doom is doom
Lucio and Sym scale to each other with a 9-A calc for both Sym and Lucio floating around somewhere
D.Va's MEKA scales at least above Bastion if not Orisa, Hana herself is unknown
76 scales to his own feat as well as to Reaper, Torb, and partially Rein
Ana scales to Widow and partially to Reaper
Baptiste scales to the other members of Talon sans Doomfist
Zen likely scales to Genji
Hammond scales to his own feat
Zarya scales to Sombra
Junk scales to his own feat
Hog is stronger than Junkrat and has a 9-A feat
Bastion scales to Tracer, Torb, and Mercy, and somewhat to Rein
Orisa is stronger than Bastion and at least as strong as if not stronger than rein
This is the list btw, took all of two seconds to find. Still working on the expanded one
Genji, Tracer, Mercy, and Winston scale to each other via Overwatch strike team from Storm Rising
Tracer, Mercy, and Torb scale to each other from Uprising, with Rein being stronger than them
Brigitte scales to Genji via constantly fighting each other
Tracer scales to Genji via constantly fighting each other in the past
Hanzo scales to Genji via fighting
Ashe scales to McCree
Widow scales to Tracer and Winston via fighting them and to Reaper via scaling
I recall seeing a 9-A calc for pharah some time ago
Sombra scales to Widow and was able to harm Zarya
Doom is doom
Lucio and Sym scale to each other with a 9-A calc for both Sym and Lucio floating around somewhere
D.Va's MEKA scales at least above Bastion if not Orisa, Hana herself is unknown
76 scales to his own feat as well as to Reaper, Torb, and partially Rein
Ana scales to Widow and partially to Reaper
Baptiste scales to the other members of Talon sans Doomfist
Zen likely scales to Genji
Hammond scales to his own feat
Zarya scales to Sombra
Junk scales to his own feat
Hog is stronger than Junkrat and has a 9-A feat
Bastion scales to Tracer, Torb, and Mercy, and somewhat to Rein
Orisa is stronger than Bastion and at least as strong as if not stronger than rein
This is the list btw, took all of two seconds to find. Still working on the expanded one
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Also, heavy assault units are 100% canon with Baptiste's lore, Mauga is a member of talon's Heavy Assault Unit
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I was more hoping for specific examples for the scaling with links to evidence, as I've said on the previous thread, this thread, and now this comment.
I do agree with some, although others I'm skeptical of and would like scans to contexualize the claims you're making:
Blackwatch/Uprising/Storm Rising: Much of the scaling is fine, although obviously some characters are stronger than others when it comes to the story. I'm kind of considered with scaling physicals for supports like Mercy and Moira, given that they likely just provided healing in the actual story.
I'd like a scan for Brigitte but that's believable.
I'm aware of the Tracer/Genji training.
Hanzo/Genji makes sense.
Kind of? Ashe didn't really take any hits from McCree, besides getting incapacitated by a large explosion he caused.
Widow didn't physically fight Winston, although she fought Tracer. That said Winston is demonstrably leagues ahead of Tracer physically as per the Doomfist animatic. Getting slammed by Doomfist's Gauntlet is probably good enough, though.
Providing the Pharah calc would be ideal.
Why does Baptiste scale to major Talon members like Reaper? Did he fight them or something?
Doomfist is Doomfist, yeah.
When do Lucio and Sym fight? In fact, when does Lucio even use his tech for combat in the lore to begin with, same for Sym?
What suggests Zen scales to Genji? They didn't seem to have ever fought.
When has Sombra fought and harmed Widow?
I do agree with some, although others I'm skeptical of and would like scans to contexualize the claims you're making:
Blackwatch/Uprising/Storm Rising: Much of the scaling is fine, although obviously some characters are stronger than others when it comes to the story. I'm kind of considered with scaling physicals for supports like Mercy and Moira, given that they likely just provided healing in the actual story.
I'd like a scan for Brigitte but that's believable.
I'm aware of the Tracer/Genji training.
Hanzo/Genji makes sense.
Kind of? Ashe didn't really take any hits from McCree, besides getting incapacitated by a large explosion he caused.
Widow didn't physically fight Winston, although she fought Tracer. That said Winston is demonstrably leagues ahead of Tracer physically as per the Doomfist animatic. Getting slammed by Doomfist's Gauntlet is probably good enough, though.
Providing the Pharah calc would be ideal.
Why does Baptiste scale to major Talon members like Reaper? Did he fight them or something?
Doomfist is Doomfist, yeah.
When do Lucio and Sym fight? In fact, when does Lucio even use his tech for combat in the lore to begin with, same for Sym?
What suggests Zen scales to Genji? They didn't seem to have ever fought.
When has Sombra fought and harmed Widow?
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Like i said im working on that, going through every piece of lore in the verse takes some time and im already half asleep while doing it
I see where youre coming from regarding supports, as even in the cinematic Moira fought exclusively with life draining rather than physicals...Though i would still like this feat for the Heavy Assault Unit to be calced, as in the scene immediately after that in the video its shown that they did in fact encounter and engage one, with their existence being directly confirmed in Baptiste's short story.
The interaction between them implies they have sparred before
Ashe and McCree are both stated and implied to have fought multiple times in the past, both against and alongside each other.
She did fight him tho, and her bullets visibly hurt him. Where is it implied that Winston is leagues above Tracer without Primal Rage? Also can we get the shockwave she survived calced?
For some reason i cant find it, but i should note that all of Pharah's weapons are made by the same weapon company as Soldier 76's helix pulse rifle, with Pharah's tech being stated as having devastating firepower in comparison. Even if i cant for some reason find the feat she'd still scale above 76 and
Baptiste regularly outmatches Talon agents and singlehandely defeated an elite Talon strike team
They havent fought but they use the same technology, its even stated in Lucio's lore that the technology he uses is stuff he stole from Symmetra. Lucio used it to drive the Vishkar out of his town in the lore I posted in the previous thread, Sym used it here.
Zen's lore directly states that he has fought both omnics and humans
She hasnt but she fought Zarya
I see where youre coming from regarding supports, as even in the cinematic Moira fought exclusively with life draining rather than physicals...Though i would still like this feat for the Heavy Assault Unit to be calced, as in the scene immediately after that in the video its shown that they did in fact encounter and engage one, with their existence being directly confirmed in Baptiste's short story.
The interaction between them implies they have sparred before
Ashe and McCree are both stated and implied to have fought multiple times in the past, both against and alongside each other.
She did fight him tho, and her bullets visibly hurt him. Where is it implied that Winston is leagues above Tracer without Primal Rage? Also can we get the shockwave she survived calced?
For some reason i cant find it, but i should note that all of Pharah's weapons are made by the same weapon company as Soldier 76's helix pulse rifle, with Pharah's tech being stated as having devastating firepower in comparison. Even if i cant for some reason find the feat she'd still scale above 76 and
Baptiste regularly outmatches Talon agents and singlehandely defeated an elite Talon strike team
They havent fought but they use the same technology, its even stated in Lucio's lore that the technology he uses is stuff he stole from Symmetra. Lucio used it to drive the Vishkar out of his town in the lore I posted in the previous thread, Sym used it here.
Zen's lore directly states that he has fought both omnics and humans
She hasnt but she fought Zarya
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This is... certainly a very circular discussion.
I'm making my way through Weekly's sources and scaling, but before I actually look at that I'll just say that before it Woki and Dargoo made the most sense, for the majority of the time.
But the sources might change that so grain of salt.
I'm making my way through Weekly's sources and scaling, but before I actually look at that I'll just say that before it Woki and Dargoo made the most sense, for the majority of the time.
But the sources might change that so grain of salt.
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>The interaction between them implies they have sparred before
Ma boi, did you forget that early in this thread AND the other one, Dargoo and Woki post scans of the lead writter saying that evens in game are non cannon? If you don't, why are you still using in game talks?
And i am gonna ask again. Why are we sure that Sym's Tech scales to her physically?
Ma boi, did you forget that early in this thread AND the other one, Dargoo and Woki post scans of the lead writter saying that evens in game are non cannon? If you don't, why are you still using in game talks?
And i am gonna ask again. Why are we sure that Sym's Tech scales to her physically?
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@Drite Because the same tech Sym wields is the tech that is integrated directly into her body, including the weapon that is her left arm.
Also i see no reason why voice lines between characters would be considered non-canon when nothing implies it.
Also i see no reason why voice lines between characters would be considered non-canon when nothing implies it.
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I do agree that Voice lines that imply prior events should be fair game.
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The Lead Writer was using voice lines as his primary example of why gameplay isn't canon, try again.WeeklyBattles said:
Huh. Glad to see you agree.
Interactions aren't canon, and so commonly contradict canon I can't take "implies they sparred" in good faith.
Unless we know the specifics of how they fought, we can't really scale specific stats. Especially since Ashe commonly has a brutish Omnic tank doing the physicals for her in combat.
Not really? He seemed more angry that she was firing at him with kids right next to him.
Doomfist animatic. Prior to using Primal Rage he took a direct hit from Doomfist's gauntlet, the same thing that ripped apart Tracer's tech with a single grab. Considering she was just teleporting around him and her weaponry barely phased him, Winston's clearly on a level above her, at least physically.
None of which are people who justifiably scale to any of the 9-A feats.
Right, and it's never explained how he used that technology to do anything but inspire people to rise up against the Viskar. There's nothing we see from him combat related, and honestly that makes a lot of sense given his character.
Sym's feats don't seem that impressive, although they do have some combat applications.
WeeklyBattles"] [/quote]
That doesn't scale him to Genji.
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I think he used that in one of the comics? Can't recall which one though.
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He did
again, all of the in game abilities have been used in lore
Also @Dargoo did you really have to break up your response in the most inconvenient way possible?
again, all of the in game abilities have been used in lore
Also @Dargoo did you really have to break up your response in the most inconvenient way possible?
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@Weekly
Cool, can you source that?
As long as my response is comprehensible, I kind of don't care? I'd rather just debate the feats/scaling than sidetrack this with formatting.
Cool, can you source that?
As long as my response is comprehensible, I kind of don't care? I'd rather just debate the feats/scaling than sidetrack this with formatting.
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I will when I get home from work
Yeah but I'm on mobile right now so that kinda makes it it a lot harder and more time consuming for me to respond to
While im writing up the reply can you take care of the tf2 thread that was revived a little while ago?
Yeah but I'm on mobile right now so that kinda makes it it a lot harder and more time consuming for me to respond to
While im writing up the reply can you take care of the tf2 thread that was revived a little while ago?
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The thread format is exactly the same on PC as it is on mobile, though.
If I have the time, sure.
If I have the time, sure.
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On when the box doesn't expand to fit your text and your phone keyboard doesn't work right
Thank you. I'd like to have that sorted out before the inevitable wave of Overwatch vs tf2 threads happens
Thank you. I'd like to have that sorted out before the inevitable wave of Overwatch vs tf2 threads happens
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Okay, so, in order:
Id still like the feat for the heavy assauly unit to be calced, as well as Mauga's durability feat and the durability feat for the OR15s as those feats would all scale to the majority of the cast.
Please do show me where the voice lines contradict the canon. Just one instance will be sufficient.
Up until their most recent fight her robot didnt have combat capabilities, something mccree points out in the middle of the fight by saying rhat Bob had gotten upgrades since their last fight. Plus in the video Ashe flat out says that she could have easily just shot him the moment she saw him and that would have been the end of it.
I was referring to the fight leading with her tackling him through the roof of the museum. And again, the shockwave she tanked needs to be calced.
Regarding Pharah that is exactly what im saying, Pharahs weapon is stronger than 76's.
Talon elite strike teams regularly fought on par with overwatch agents in the past, why wouldnt they be 9-A?
Hisnlore flat out says that the tech is converted from sonic weaponry used to harm the people of his home town.
Never said it did.
Id still like the feat for the heavy assauly unit to be calced, as well as Mauga's durability feat and the durability feat for the OR15s as those feats would all scale to the majority of the cast.
Please do show me where the voice lines contradict the canon. Just one instance will be sufficient.
Up until their most recent fight her robot didnt have combat capabilities, something mccree points out in the middle of the fight by saying rhat Bob had gotten upgrades since their last fight. Plus in the video Ashe flat out says that she could have easily just shot him the moment she saw him and that would have been the end of it.
I was referring to the fight leading with her tackling him through the roof of the museum. And again, the shockwave she tanked needs to be calced.
Regarding Pharah that is exactly what im saying, Pharahs weapon is stronger than 76's.
Talon elite strike teams regularly fought on par with overwatch agents in the past, why wouldnt they be 9-A?
Hisnlore flat out says that the tech is converted from sonic weaponry used to harm the people of his home town.
Never said it did.
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K
Every interaction between characters who never even met, for one? Reaper + any of the original OW members is a pretty big example of this. If you can have interactions that aren't logically possible, who's to say the "implied" sparring between Brigitte and Genji can be taken at face value? Especially since, in the story, Reinhardt only very recently decided to go back to help OW in coming back?
Bob getting upgrades doesn't really mean he wasn't used in combat before that interaction, though? And it's not like Ashe's hindsight is very good to begin with, given the fight.
Didn't disagree with the shockwave, although I doubt it's above 9-B. Since Winston wasn't pushing back against her, pushing Winston just involves the strength needed to move around her weight; being superhumanly strong doesn't automatically make you resistant to getting sent flying, as the Doomfist animatic demonstrates.
How do we know that, if your only argument for scaling is them being made by the same manufacteror? You're also forgetting S76 frequently modifies his own weaponry.
If the OW agents they fought aren't the few 9-As, why are they being scaled? Like, it's obvious even high-level mooks aren't comparable to the likes of Doomfist or Reaper.
Source?
Except you did?
Every interaction between characters who never even met, for one? Reaper + any of the original OW members is a pretty big example of this. If you can have interactions that aren't logically possible, who's to say the "implied" sparring between Brigitte and Genji can be taken at face value? Especially since, in the story, Reinhardt only very recently decided to go back to help OW in coming back?
Bob getting upgrades doesn't really mean he wasn't used in combat before that interaction, though? And it's not like Ashe's hindsight is very good to begin with, given the fight.
Didn't disagree with the shockwave, although I doubt it's above 9-B. Since Winston wasn't pushing back against her, pushing Winston just involves the strength needed to move around her weight; being superhumanly strong doesn't automatically make you resistant to getting sent flying, as the Doomfist animatic demonstrates.
How do we know that, if your only argument for scaling is them being made by the same manufacteror? You're also forgetting S76 frequently modifies his own weaponry.
If the OW agents they fought aren't the few 9-As, why are they being scaled? Like, it's obvious even high-level mooks aren't comparable to the likes of Doomfist or Reaper.
Source?
Except you did?
WeeklyBattles said:
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The quote from the lead writer already provided an example. If one example is all that's needed, you already have one.WeeklyBattles said:
"To make it extra confusing: it gets a little more complicated in-game because we chose to have some 'non-canon interactions because I think it's more interesting to have Reinhardt take out Reaper and say, "Traitor!" than to accurately reflect that he doesn't know Reaper's true identity. But as I've said before, events in game shouldn't be considered strictly canon."
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Reaper did meet all of the original overwatch members though? Not only was he one of the founding members of Overwatch but he personally trained numerous agent as well as gave a good number of mission briefing and Intel as well as interacted with agents in the field.
Going by her lore her hindsight is actually extremely food seeing as she not only unified all gangs in the midwest united states and brokered a peace treaty between them all, but she was widely renounded for being extremely quick witted and regularly outsmarted her opponents and targets during heists.
Id feel more.comfortable if it and the rest of the feats i brought up were calced.
Because the company that made both weapons flst out said that the rocket launcher is stronger? Not really sure how much more proof you need than that. Qhere was it stated that 76 modded his gun?
They fought tracer, genji, and mccree
L├║cio wouldn't stand for it. He stole Vishkar sonic technology that had been used to suppress the people, and he converted it into a tool to rally them to action. In a popular uprising, they drove Vishkar out of their neighborhoods. L├║cio's leadership made him a star overnight and a symbol for positive social change. His music skyrocketed in popularity. Whereas he had once performed locally, he was now filling arenas across the world." This is right from lucios lore page
Going by her lore her hindsight is actually extremely food seeing as she not only unified all gangs in the midwest united states and brokered a peace treaty between them all, but she was widely renounded for being extremely quick witted and regularly outsmarted her opponents and targets during heists.
Id feel more.comfortable if it and the rest of the feats i brought up were calced.
Because the company that made both weapons flst out said that the rocket launcher is stronger? Not really sure how much more proof you need than that. Qhere was it stated that 76 modded his gun?
They fought tracer, genji, and mccree
L├║cio wouldn't stand for it. He stole Vishkar sonic technology that had been used to suppress the people, and he converted it into a tool to rally them to action. In a popular uprising, they drove Vishkar out of their neighborhoods. L├║cio's leadership made him a star overnight and a symbol for positive social change. His music skyrocketed in popularity. Whereas he had once performed locally, he was now filling arenas across the world." This is right from lucios lore page
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As Reyes, not Reaper. Big difference there.
Uh, combat hindsight and leadership/charisma skills are two different things.
Sure.
When did that happen? Source? Can't find anything on 76's mods, so I'll rescind that claim.
When? And when was it stated they were the same people who fought Baptiste?
"a tool to rally them to actio"
"L├║cio's leadership"
It seems he just used the tech to inspire people to revolt, not to get into the thick of it himself. Otherwise don't see anything that says he harmed/killed people with the tech he stole, which would be seriously OOC anyways.
Uh, combat hindsight and leadership/charisma skills are two different things.
Sure.
When did that happen? Source? Can't find anything on 76's mods, so I'll rescind that claim.
When? And when was it stated they were the same people who fought Baptiste?
"a tool to rally them to actio"
"L├║cio's leadership"
It seems he just used the tech to inspire people to revolt, not to get into the thick of it himself. Otherwise don't see anything that says he harmed/killed people with the tech he stole, which would be seriously OOC anyways.
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@Derp And when rein inevitably learns reapers identity then what?
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@Dargoo What difference? Reaper would still know the agents he worked with and thus him acknowledging them goes with the canon. Vice versa the only ones who have any interaction with him in his current state are people.who know him in his current state in the lore.
Ashe was the brains behind all of the deadlock gang's heists, her hindsight is second to none.
It happened in the link to pharah's lore that I posted.
Both of those were stated in the lore that i posted my guy
Can you please focus on the fact that it is an offensive sonic weapo. and stop cherypicking that he wa sthe leader? Seriously him being inspirational doesnt discredit him using a weapon.
Ashe was the brains behind all of the deadlock gang's heists, her hindsight is second to none.
It happened in the link to pharah's lore that I posted.
Both of those were stated in the lore that i posted my guy
Can you please focus on the fact that it is an offensive sonic weapo. and stop cherypicking that he wa sthe leader? Seriously him being inspirational doesnt discredit him using a weapon.
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