Overlord General Discussion Mk.II

[SuperKamiNappa]

Literally all Ainz would have to do is swing his sword and he would cut Touma in half. Still I'll read through that thread after work.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Not really. Ainz could punch him anywhere that isn't his arm, attack him with a spell that doesn't affect his whole body and just anywhere else, still has teleporting, etc.

Thing is that he won't know all this at the start, and Touma is immensely experienced fighting all sorts of magical opponents. Just look for Othinus and her bow, that's also something Touma adapted to even though he needed a ton of redos until he could delete all the arrows.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Literally all Ainz would have to do is swing his sword and he would cut Touma in half. Still I'll read through that thread after work.

Ainz's swords are made of magic.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Not really. Ainz could punch him anywhere that isn't his arm, attack him with a spell that doesn't affect his whole body and just anywhere else, still has teleporting, etc.

Thing is that he won't know all this at the start, and Touma is immensely experienced fighting all sorts of magical opponents. Just look for Othinus and her bow, that's also something Touma adapted to even though he needed a ton of redos until he could delete all the arrows.

I believe stomp rules are changing.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

They could be changing, but it's still being discussed. Even then, I don't see this match falling in that pool.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Let's put it this way. Is Touma experienced using Imagine Breakwr in combat?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Extremely, to put it mildly.

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

Ainz's swords are made of magic.

They are?ƒñ»

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yeah.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If you mean the obsidian ones he conjures, yes. If you also mean any weapon that has or was made using magic, yes. IB also cancels the KE of things if their direct cause is supernatural.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I mean, here's how it goes in my head:

Ainz is skilled in magic. Touma is skilled in magic nullification. So that already puts him at a disadvantage greater than when he fought Shalltear. Death Manipulation and Time Stop are out of the question, meaning that what Ainz specializes in and his breathing room are out the window. Ainz can't use melee weapons in base and has to use perfect warrior to use them, and the one's he creates are made of magic. Nazarick's Treasury isn't on hand all the time either IIRC. Furthermore, Ainz doesn't know how IB works, while all Touma needs to really know is that Ainz is a magic user. Furthermore, the range was set so that Touma would have a relatively short distance to travel.

So he only has a few options.

Possibly Despair Aura, assuming it's something that will not hit Touma's hand

Possibly Fallen Down, as it probably won't touch his hand before the rest of him.

Possibly Wish Upon a Star, if it has something that will do in Touma, but that's a big if.

Charm Person

Drifting Master Mine, assuming its invisibility would let it hit Touma

Casting normal attack spells, which will almost certainly be hit with IB

Spamming range attacks until he lands one, which isn't in character.

Or engaging him in melee, which will almost certainly end with his existence negated.

It's at the very least a match with every card in Touma's favor, even assuming it's not a stomp.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Sounds more decisive to me.

And thing is, Ainz still has advantages. He could use summons to distract Touma and land a hit in when he's already dealing with other things, Touma's hand can't undo an attack if it's continous or instantly negate them if it's powerful enough, leaving the hand busy for him to be attacked. The true issue here is Ainz not having enough knowledge. Even without the range, is a big throw whether he teleports once Touma closes in, as he wouldn't know the thing can undo him as he's supernatural too.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I mean, Imagine Breaker is low 2-C tho.

I think this match should just be redone with some more distance, to make it fairer to Ainz. I'd be comfortable with calling in a fair win then.

 

[Apeironaxim]

So if a supernatural being punches Touma in the face, fair game?

It won't get nulled by virtue of being supernatural?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yeah.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I'd be okay with more distance.

And yes, literally anything can hit Touma, supernatural or not, as long as IB ain't touched. Problem is the death spells shown so far pretty much affect you as a whole.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Pretty sure Grasp Heart is just the heart

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I have seen it argued before it's death manip, so enough regen to regen a heart is not gonna work or change anything.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I'm iffy on Grasp Heart being full on death manip, but most will argue it is so I guess it doesn't matter

 

[AnonymousBlank]

I was always under the assumption that GH just crushed your heart and thats why it killed you, a pulped heart is pretty instant death after all. Where did the death manip stuff come from?

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It was said to be one of his spells that was imbued with a instant death effect, so that sounds less like direct damage, or at least that there is some death manipulation in it.

 

[Apeironaxim]

I think it comes from the fact the description talks about instant death effects, but I've always just thought it's an instant death spell because it crushes the heart

 

[Yobo_Blue]

It's possible it does both, and there was a argument a while back that had more evidence, but that's the general idea.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That was very much how I thought of it as well in the past, but I was running into so many people that felt simple Regenerationn that was enough to regenerate a heart wouldn't stop Grasp Heart so...

Not to mention, it makes me wonder how it would even work on anything without a Heart in Yggdrassil.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Yeah, I don't think slimes suddenly got resistance to GH, especially since that would have to be coded directly into their racial skills.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Which makes me think, do Mimics Doppelgangers have organs?

 

[Apeironaxim]

All I know is that all undead are immune to any instant death spell, unless of course you use TGOALID

No race that I'm aware of is stated to be immune for the reason they either don't have a heart, or don't need one, just that they are immune to it.

If Ainz used TGOALID + Grasp Heart on an undead/something that doesn't need a heart and it works, then that means Grasp Heart both crushes the heart and imbues them with instant death magic, but of course that will probably never happen

 

[Apeironaxim]

"The Goal of All Life Is Death was a move that strengthened spells and skills that had instadeath as an effect. The effect strengthened by this skill would kill even an opponent with an ability that made them immune to instant death, once a certain time elapsed."

If we interpret the bolded part by saying "effect strengthed" means the instant death effect is strengthed by means of just making it so it can't be resisted, then that would mean Grasp Heart also embues an instant death effect.

Since it doesn't say "all instant death spells except Grasp Heart", that means Grasp Heart would kill Shalltear (since the description says kill), and due to her not needing a heart the only way she would die would be by an instant death effect

Hope that made sense

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

It make senses. In general I was just never gonna assume what may not kill a slime or a plant monster isn't gonna have a death effect. Otherwise grasp heart or similar abilities would just not work even if those two examples above didn't have Death Manip resistance.

 

[Apeironaxim]

The only other interpretation would be the "effect stregthened" means TGOALID gives some sort of extra death power to the spells, but that requires more assumptions than the interpretation in my previous post

Welp, guess I believe Grasp Heart has an instant death effect now too

This seems like solid evidence in that favor

 

[Apeironaxim]

Now here's the real question that probably won't get answered in the LN, were spells like Hellfire Wall, which destroy the soul, counted as an instant death spell?

I feel that would make sense, but that requires way too many assumptions

 

[FDrybob]

Probably not. Instant death spells in YGGDRASIL each had a chance of instantly killing the enemy. On the other hand, while hellfire spells do destroy souls in the New World, they just dealt ordinary damage back in YGGDRASIL. It was their flavor text that gave them soul-destroying properties in the New World. Kinda like how we used to consider the Terraria to be galaxy level just because of the flavor text of an item he used to make some of his weapons.

 

[Apeironaxim]

Can you provide a quote saying the soul destroying was just flavor text?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

How would Soul Destruction even work in Yggdrassil?

 

[AnonymousBlank]

It wouldn't tbh. Best you could get is some additional bonus damage or smth.

 

[Apeironaxim]

How would Soul Destruction even work in Yggdrassil?

Could function as a more powerful instant death effect, one that requires better resurrection

Again this is all speculation

 

[SuperKamiNappa]

How would Soul Destruction even work in Yggdrassil?

It would probably be meaningless flavor text.

 

[Apeironaxim]

"Hmph! What a pitiful attack". Evileye didn't break her composure. "Reverse Gravity!" Entoma resisted the spell, but her Whip Bug became weightless and floated into the air.

Found this, so this should Entoma Gravity Manip resistance right?

 

[FDrybob]

No objections here, though it's not entirely clear if she resisted the spell itself, or the gravity caused by the spell.

 

[DeathNoodles]

I mean, Imagine Breaker is low 2-C tho.
I think this match should just be redone with some more distance, to make it fairer to Ainz. I'd be comfortable with calling in a fair win then.

Possibly Low 2-C.

The main complaint about that match is that lots of the users arguing in Touma's favour are assuming Ainz's character inaccurately, and that the distance set out is a bit too skewed in Touma's favour.

I also think that match should also be done with some greater starting distance to make it a bit more fair on Ainz's end as well, and hopefully not have so many users incorrectly assume Ainz's character by making him underestimate his opponents just because they're Human. If Touma still won in that fairer match, then I'm alright with consider that match a fair victory on Touma's end.