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One Piece - Water 7 Arc Luffy & Usopp Revision

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Damage3245

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Introduction​

The purpose of this CRT is to call Luffy’s regular punches scaling to his Golden Rifle, and by extension Usopp’s durability scaling to Golden Rifle, into question. There exists 5 major points that create skepticism regarding this scaling, as detailed below. Each issue will be thoroughly explained before drawing the final conclusion, in which hopefully everyone can understand the point being made here.

Credit to @Arc7Kuroi for helping put this together and writing some of the sections.

Using Weapons to Enhance Attack Potency​

The first main issue with claiming Luffy’s normal punches scale to his Golden Rifle lies with the fact that the Golden Rifle enhances Luffy’s punch with a giant golden ball. A simple anecdote to describe the issue with using this type of scaling can be found in comparing the damage someone can do with their normal punches as opposed to with a hammer. For example, if someone were to horizontally swing a household hammer at someone else’s head, it would deal a lot more damage than a regular punch to the head.

In the original thread that got this scaling accepted, it was argued that the golden ball was only wrapped around Luffy’s wrist and not his fist. Therefore, Luffy’s fist is what’s doing all the damage, making his regular punches scale. However, this is not the case, we see that the golden ball slams directly into Enel and very likely connected with the bell as it shattered indicating some level of impact. All this means is that the analogy of swinging the hammer contrasted with a regular punch is a valid analog to Luffy’s Golden Rifle versus regular punches and kicks.

It should be rather intuitive that using a bludgeoning weapon enhances the amount of damage and attack potency of a strike when compared to a normal unaided strike. As such, Luffy’s regular punches scaling to his Golden Rifle should be called into question. The following points will elaborate on this:

The Force-Velocity Curve​

The second main issue with the current Golden Rifle scaling can be explained with the Force-Velocity curve. This curve describes the relationship between the exerted force associated with moving weights (like say a giant golden ball attached to your arm) and the speed at which they can be moved. The relationship shows that speed changes exponentially as the force exerted to move a weight changes. The takeaway being that towards heavier weights, mass becomes the dominant factor in the force behind its motion as opposed to speed.

Where this applies to Luffy’s Golden Rifle is best shown with a boxing anecdote. The idea of heavy hands vs speed when it comes to punching power. A great and popular example of this is comparing the slow powerful slugs of George Foreman to the rapid strikes of Muhammad Ali. Ali threw the faster punches but Foreman hit harder because he had more weight to put into his punches. That’s why we have weight classes in martial sports to begin with, when it comes to combat the mass behind a strike usually matters more than the speed behind said punch. And this is portrayed scientifically in that Force-Velocity curve.

Furthermore, while obtaining speed from kinetic energy is a forbidden practice, this does help loosely support this point specifically. For Luffy to produce the same kinetic energy from his fist as is produced from his fist plus the gold ball, he would have to be punching with FTL kinetic energy using traditional kinetic energy (or more realistically ultra-relativistic speeds, practically the speed of light). Such notion is obviously contradicted by the fact that Luffy should not be able to approach those roughly light speeds during this point in the manga, as Kizaru moving at light speed annihilates and blitzes the Supernova. Although, please keep in mind this is merely a loose piece of support and not necessary for the overall point.

Regardless, the main point here stands that Luffy adding more mass behind his punch would logically increase the power of his punches more easily than moving faster would. Which supports the notion that Luffy’s Golden Rifle should be stronger than his usual punches.

Luffy’s Punch Wind-Up and Elasticity​

The strength of Luffy’s punches does not come from his muscle strength alone, but the elasticity of his body thanks to his Devil Fruit. When he throws his back his fist dozens or hundreds of meters to wind up a punch, that is going to produce a hit that is stronger than if Luffy had punched with no wind-up.

When Luffy performs his Golden Rifle against Enel, he has a huge wind-up, throwing the Golden Ball forward from a distance so that it can gather momentum and deliver more kinetic energy.

In the manga, chapter 333, it is indicated that Luffy did not have any wind-up on his Gum-Gum Pistol that he hit Usopp in the face with as he starts the “Gum-Gum…” while he’s cartwheeling and dodging, then throws the “... Pistol” which hits Usopp. This is backed up by the anime version of the fight, Episode 236, which does not show any wind-up on the punch.

So the one direct hit that Usopp took from Luffy and continued to fight after that is already guaranteed to be weaker than his Golden Rifle attack due to the lack of wind-up for it.

This is corroborated by science as well with Hooke’s law. This law basically says that more force is required to stretch an elastic object over a longer distance. Which should be intuitive, as we see this in the layman example of stretching a rubber band. You can launch paper balls a further distance with a rubber band the more it gets stretched back. That is why, scientifically, when Luffy stretches his arms (or legs) back further, they have more force behind their strikes.

Luffy vs. Usopp in Water 7​

Usopp took one more hit from Luffy during that fight, in chapter 333, where Luffy does use a wind-up to build up momentum for his Gum-Gum Bullet… which knocks Usopp down and ends the fight.

That is a total of two attacks that Usopp took from Luffy during their entire exchange; two hits for Usopp to go down. It is exceedingly generous to say that Usopp’s durability fully scales to an all-out Luffy, when the very depiction of their fight showcases how Luffy outclasses Usopp in every way. The fact that Usopp goes down so easily is just additional evidence that goes against him scaling to Golden Rifle calc even if we generously assumed that Luffy’s attacks were anywhere near as strong as the full value of that calc. Furthermore, Enel had taken far more damage and attacks prior to getting one shot by Luffy’s Golden Rifle. So the notion that Usopp required more power to take down than Enel, and thus his durability should scale higher, is a false notion as well.

Luffy’s Regular Attacks vs. Golden Rifle​

There is additional reason to suspect that Luffy's regular attacks don't scale in potency to his Golden Rifle when you consider that Golden Rifle is the finisher in his fight against Enel and is clearly portrayed as being on another level when it soundly defeats him. Luffy's regular attacks are certainly capable of injuring Enel during their fight, and knocking him down [although he can get back up again] - but while a barrage of Luffy's regular attacks just knock Enel down and that's it, the Golden Rifle completely demolishes Enel in his amped-up Aimaru form, shatters the top of his ship and keeps going without faltering so that Luffy can ring the giant golden bell.

Even when Luffy kicked Enel in the face while he had the golden ball attached to his arm, and Enel was in his transformed state, Luffy didn't send Enel flying hard enough to smash everything in his path... By all visual evidence of Luffy's attack effectiveness, the Golden Rifle that he threw at Enel as his final move had a bigger impact on Enel and did more damage than anything he was capable of previously. So this makes it highly dubious that his regular punches would be equal to this monumental attack.

Conclusion​

It should be clear to see that Usopp shouldn’t be scaling to Golden Rifle based on the information provided above. However, the Golden Rifle scaling isn’t to be removed entirely, rather it will just need to be re-worked. A proposed new means of scaling is portrayed below, based on Kaku and Lucci’s Shigan scaling above the Golden Rifle.

Proposed New Scaling​

My proposal for the new scaling is relatively the same; however, instead of scaling Usopp’s durability and Kalifa above the Golden Rifle, only Kaku and Lucci’s Shigan will scale above the Golden Rifle. The scaling itself with Doriki, Hody’s pill multipliers, and other multipliers will remain the same for the time being. The reason only Kaku and Lucci should scale above Luffy’s Golden Rifle is because of the context added to the Shigan statement. The technique is hyped up as the strongest yet because it was able to defeat Luffy and Zoro, and not every CP9 member is the same strength. So, nothing indicates that the statement applies to every Shigan. The interpretation of the least assumptions would follow the above interpretation, and this is commonplace here as we treat statements contextualized by further text or image to inherently only apply to said context (as seen with Mifune’s speed of light sword slashes). Furthermore, with Usopp no longer scaling to the Golden Rifle, there’s nothing to imply the statement should apply to Kalifa outside of a generous high-end interpretation.

Doriki Scaling (w/ only Kaku and Lucci > Golden Rifle):
  • Kalifa (630): 4.9 MT (Low 7-B+)
  • Fukurou (800): 6.22 MT (Low 7-B+)
  • Kumadori (810): 6.3 MT (7-B)
  • Blueno (820): 6.37 MT (7-B)
  • Jabra (2180): 16.94 MT (7-B)
  • Kaku (2200): 17.1 MT (7-B)
  • Lucci (4000): 31.1 MT (7-B)
Water 7 Arc Luffy would be changed to be Low 7-B normally, and 7-B with the Golden Rifle.

Based on the OP Verse Page Scaling Notes:
  • Thriller Bark Usopp and Franky: 15.55 MT (7-B)
  • Usopp’s Dura and Enies Lobby Sanji: 16.94 MT (7-B)
  • Nitoryu Enies Lobby Zoro and Yontoryu base Kaku: 20.73 MT (7-B)
  • G2 Enies Lobby Luffy and Hybrid Lucci: 62.18 MT (7-B+)
  • G3 Enies Lobby Luffy and Tekkai Hybrid Lucci: 124.36 MT (7-A)
  • Overdosed Hody: 542.23 MT (7-A)
  • Dressrosa Law and Busoshoku Doffy’s Dura: 1 GT (High 7-A)
  • Monster Hody: 2.17 GT (High 7-A)
  • G4 Early WCI Luffy, Charlotte Cracker, Tobiroppo: 8.68 GT (6-C)
  • Golden Wrath of God: 17.35 GT (6-C)
  • Gold Splash: 25.14 GT (6-C)
  • G4 Post-Kata Luffy’s King Kong Gun: 34.7 GT (6-C)
 
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I always had major doubts/suspicions of normal Water 7 Luffy and Usopp scaling to the full Golden Rifle calc for many of the reasons you listed above.

So yeah, I agree with the OP.

I'm not doing another scaling list for all the characters, tho.
 
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Where does this value come from?

Nitoryu Zoro is no longer 2/3 of Santoryu Zoro's power.
I'll make a more detailed sandbox with new ratings, that bit will probably be changed and corrected.
 
The first main issue with claiming Luffy’s normal punches scale to his Golden Rifle lies with the fact that the Golden Rifle enhances Luffy’s punch with a giant golden ball.
My issue with this is the fact that the golden ball very CLEARLY weighed Luffy down and he had to pretty much grow mid-fight to even carry it, let alone swing it around in a straight shot/send himself flying while it's attached and swinging it along.
Something that weighs you down doesn't "enhance" your KE, it drags it down.
A simple anecdote to describe the issue with using this type of scaling can be found in comparing the damage someone can do with their normal punches as opposed to with a hammer. For example, if someone were to horizontally swing a household hammer at someone else’s head, it would deal a lot more damage than a regular punch to the head.
This is wrong.
Someone carrying a sledge hammer that is manageable is different. If the sledgehammer's weight is still something the person can manage then swinging it scales to their physical output, otherwise they wouldn't swing it to begin with, or their swing would falter because the hammer's too heavy for their arms.
A more proper comparaison to Luffy's golden rifle is giving someone who's maximum effort can carry 200lbs, a 600lbs sledgehammer then expecting them to hit someone with it with the same speed they'd punch. It's impossible.
However, this is not the case, we see that the golden ball slams directly into Enel and very likely connected with the bell as it shattered indicating some level of impact
Luffy's fist is literally zoomed in on when Enel sees the attack.
If ENEL was hit with the golden ball FIRST his body would disperse. Also the golden ball shattering implies Luffy swing it too hard for it to handle the impact, meaning his swing's KE is greater than the golden ball's durability (which could slam into Enel first and stay intact).
The strength of Luffy’s punches does not come from his muscle strength alone, but the elasticity of his body thanks to his Devil Fruit. When he throws his back his fist dozens or hundreds of meters to wind up a punch, that is going to produce a hit that is stronger than if Luffy had punched with no wind-up.
This is iffy. If Luffy's stretchiness is what made the Golden ball get yanked that fast, then the first time it was attached to his arm it would've snapped right back.
Instead Luffy's immidiately overwhelmed and dragged by it. His arm does dangle afterwards, but it's because he holds on to the ship. Point is, if the WIND UP is what makes the ball even carriable, then Luffy's arm wouldn't have been overwhelmed by the ball, especially when we see him do far shorder wind-ups multiple times (his bullet winds up a shorter distance, his rifle as well, etc--).
Even when Luffy kicked Enel in the face while he had the golden ball attached to his arm, and Enel was in his transformed state, Luffy didn't send Enel flying hard enough to smash everything in his path...
We do see Enel having already skewered Luffy a panel after that-- it's not made clear whether he was stabbed while kicking or while Enel got staggered. Either way it's entirely possible Enel used Luffy's own body to keep himself from going flying. It's made evident the next page because Enel was within kicking distance and then he's a greater distance away, attached by his arm to Luffy.
It's very clear that Luffy's unnamed regular kick still sent him back a distance regardless.


The obvious answer here is Luffy basically got stronger than he was minutes prior. But I do agree the Usopp scaling always felt a tad weird to me.
Even then, the difference would be so extremely minimal since every other Luffy attack is a named one that every "named" attack around the level of or stronger than rifle would just scale to the golden rifle anyway.

I don't disagree with the CRT's intent on the Usopp portion, but I do with the Luffy one for points made above. Him scaling anywhere below golden rifle with his named attacks (which again, make literally no difference since that's the norm) is weird as hell.
 
I don't disagree with the CRT's intent on the Usopp portion, but I do with the Luffy one for points made above. Him scaling anywhere below golden rifle with his named attacks (which again, make literally no difference since that's the norm) is weird as hell.
I see what you mean, but for me it's weirder to scale it to him.
 
I see what you mean, but for me it's weirder to scale it to him.
The only seperation would be :insert value here

insert difference value "with named attacks." and honestly- that's the whole reason we didn't do it for Gear 4's regular string breaks strength vs Gear 4's compression multiplier. Because Luffy relies on his named blows 90% of the time.

The Usopp point I agree with because the one single wind-up attack he took put him down immidiately.
But that only applies for W7.
As of Enies Lobby, Usopp takes multiple shigans from Jabura, who's only 20 doriki points lower than Kaku. The same guy who's base shigan dropped Zoro, and he did so with zero effort. A HYBRID Jabura is bound to surpass the 2180/2200 doriki and Usopp still took those. The rest of cypher pol not scaling seems fair though.
 
It's not "with named attacks", it's just "with Golden Rifle".
 
It's not "with named attacks", it's just "with Golden Rifle".
Then my points in the original post still stand. Golden Rifle is pretty much entirely a byproduct of a named attack from Luffy. He should scale to it still with Bazooka/Gatling/Storm, and multiple attacks that scale over his rifle- At the very least a "7-B with strongest attacks" would be better alternative than "golden rifle".
 
Then my points in the original post still stand. Golden Rifle is pretty much entirely a byproduct of a named attack from Luffy. He should scale to it still with Bazooka/Gatling/Storm, and multiple attacks that scale over his rifle- At the very least a "7-B with strongest attacks" would be better alternative than "golden rifle".
Bazooka, Gatling and Storm being stronger than his normal Rifle doesn't necessarily make them as strong as his Golden Rifle. Though I'll consider that alternative wording.
 
I see some noticeable logical fallacies with the OP, but the general idea seems fair at glance. I don't know if my input on these fallacies will be of use since I don't disagree with this.
 
Put me down for agree

Although I believe KT is cookin up sumn, so I’ll be curious to read about that
 
My issue with this is the fact that the golden ball very CLEARLY weighed Luffy down and he had to pretty much grow mid-fight to even carry it, let alone swing it around in a straight shot/send himself flying while it's attached and swinging it along.
Something that weighs you down doesn't "enhance" your KE, it drags it down.
Not at all, the OP provides scientific evidence for why increasing the weight behind a punch massively increases its power. You’re making an unsubstantiated claim with no evidence to back it up.

This is wrong.
Someone carrying a sledge hammer that is manageable is different. If the sledgehammer's weight is still something the person can manage then swinging it scales to their physical output, otherwise they wouldn't swing it to begin with, or their swing would falter because the hammer's too heavy for their arms.
A more proper comparaison to Luffy's golden rifle is giving someone who's maximum effort can carry 200lbs, a 600lbs sledgehammer then expecting them to hit someone with it with the same speed they'd punch. It's impossible.
I can swing a sledge hammer, my punches don’t hit as hard as a sledge hammer.

Luffy's fist is literally zoomed in on when Enel sees the attack.
If ENEL was hit with the golden ball FIRST his body would disperse. Also the golden ball shattering implies Luffy swing it too hard for it to handle the impact, meaning his swing's KE is greater than the golden ball's durability (which could slam into Enel first and stay intact).
The Golden Ball contributed massively to the KE because it’s heavy. And we see the golden ball connect with Enel, let’s not pretend that somehow only Luffy only hit Enel with his fist and the ball magically shattered.

This is iffy. If Luffy's stretchiness is what made the Golden ball get yanked that fast, then the first time it was attached to his arm it would've snapped right back.
Instead Luffy's immidiately overwhelmed and dragged by it. His arm does dangle afterwards, but it's because he holds on to the ship. Point is, if the WIND UP is what makes the ball even carriable, then Luffy's arm wouldn't have been overwhelmed by the ball, especially when we see him do far shorder wind-ups multiple times (his bullet winds up a shorter distance, his rifle as well, etc--).
That would be thanks to his lifting strength, not his regular AP.

We do see Enel having already skewered Luffy a panel after that-- it's not made clear whether he was stabbed while kicking or while Enel got staggered. Either way it's entirely possible Enel used Luffy's own body to keep himself from going flying. It's made evident the next page because Enel was within kicking distance and then he's a greater distance away, attached by his arm to Luffy.
It's very clear that Luffy's unnamed regular kick still sent him back a distance regardless.
That’s not the point, Luffy’s kick did an obviously lesser amount of damage than the GR punch.

The obvious answer here is Luffy basically got stronger than he was minutes prior. But I do agree the Usopp scaling always felt a tad weird to me.
Even then, the difference would be so extremely minimal since every other Luffy attack is a named one that every "named" attack around the level of or stronger than rifle would just scale to the golden rifle anyway.
Do we accept these “Naruto mental amps” for One Piece? Because you’re asserting that Luffy got stronger from the time he kicked Enel to the time he threw the GR punch. Do you have any evidence for OP mental amps?

I don't disagree with the CRT's intent on the Usopp portion, but I do with the Luffy one for points made above. Him scaling anywhere below golden rifle with his named attacks (which again, make literally no difference since that's the norm) is weird as hell.
It being weird is your incredulity. I don’t find Luffy’s big super final move of the arc being stronger than his normal attacks to be weird.
 
I will clarify something about the OP, using AP and KE to calculate speeds is strictly not allowed. So you can ignore that point in the OP, it’s merely a very loose supporting argument to the main point of mass vs speed in a punch. However, it is against vsbw rules to use KE in that way, so it’s not a valid point by technicality. I say this because I’ve been made aware that that point is creating confusion/being interpreted as hypocritical.
 
I will clarify something about the OP, using AP and KE to calculate speeds is strictly not allowed. So you can ignore that point in the OP, it’s merely a very loose supporting argument to the main point of mass vs speed in a punch. However, it is against vsbw rules to use KE in that way, so it’s not a valid point by technicality. I say this because I’ve been made aware that that point is creating confusion/being interpreted as hypocritical.
Noted. I will cross it out of the OP so that people will not need to see it as a major point, but will see it there.
 
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I always thought it was weird that Usopp was scaled to Luffy, considering how insanely weak Usopp is portrayed in comparison to Luffy
Yep.

The exchange between them is incredibly uneven, with Luffy outperforming Usopp in every stat. To say that Usopp is equal to Luffy's most powerful attack at the time is clearly wrong even if people don't agree with every single point in the OP.
 
Wouldn't it scale to all shigan users, as the scan in the OP was talking about the technique as a whole which is capable of taking out Zoro and Luffy, and not specifically shigan when used by Lucci and Kaku?
That would be exceeedingly generous; there is no supporting evidence to think that the weakest Shigan users would be that strong. Just because the technique itself could be that powerful does not guarantee that all user's of the technique will be that powerful.

Considering that the statement is given by Nami too, and not an all-knowing narrator, her assertion that it is the most powerful technique so far is not an absolute statement.
 
Wouldn't it scale to all shigan users, as the scan in the OP was talking about the technique as a whole which is capable of taking out Zoro and Luffy, and not specifically shigan when used by Lucci and Kaku?
You know our G5 Luffy accelerated development argument its that it is contextualized with Kaku and Lucci, just like databooks can speak vaguely but contextualized it with images of whatever form of a character they refer to.


There's the fact that with Rankyaku, Kalifa alongside Kaku could damage Luffy . We currently have character that use combined attacks as comparable
That last sentence is faulty logic. Because the doriki scaling specifically uses the values to quantify Kaku as stronger than Kalifa.
 
it is contextualized with Kaku and Lucci, just like databooks can speak vaguely but contextualized it with images of whatever form of a character they refer to.
It's not contextualized with Lucci and Kaku. It's saying that the technique is so powerful that it could take out Luffy and Zoro. It never mentioned Lucci and Kaku by name so we can assume that the statement is talking about Shigan the technique and not specifically the Shigan used by Kaku and Lucci.

It's not even an assumption as the scan sent was talking about the technique itself.
Because the doriki scaling specifically uses the values to quantify Kaku as stronger than Kalifa.
So we can't say that Hybrid Kaido ~ Homies Big Mom because of Hakai due to Kaido's many statements of either being the World's Strongest Creature, or outright being called the strongest Yonko 1 on 1?
 
It's not contextualized with Lucci and Kaku. It's saying that the technique is so powerful that it could take out Luffy and Zoro. It never mentioned Lucci and Kaku by name so we can assume that the statement is talking about Shigan the technique and not specifically the Shigan used by Kaku and Lucci.
Not at all. As you said it’s so strong it can take out Luffy and Zoro, which is evidence for it contextualized to Kaku and Lucci.

It's not even an assumption as the scan sent was talking about the technique itself.
It’s called context.

So we can't say that Hybrid Kaido ~ Homies Big Mom because of Hakai due to Kaido's many statements of either being the World's Strongest Creature, or outright being called the strongest Yonko 1 on 1?
If characters are comparable sure, but Kalifa is objectively weaker than Kaku.
 
So we can't say that Hybrid Kaido ~ Homies Big Mom because of Hakai due to Kaido's many statements of either being the World's Strongest Creature, or outright being called the strongest Yonko 1 on 1?
Different topic altogether.

It's not contextualized with Lucci and Kaku. It's saying that the technique is so powerful that it could take out Luffy and Zoro. It never mentioned Lucci and Kaku by name so we can assume that the statement is talking about Shigan the technique and not specifically the Shigan used by Kaku and Lucci.

Sure, the technique is that powerful.... when used by Lucci and Kaku as they're the ones who defeated Luffy and Zoro.
 
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