One Piece - Water 7 Arc Luffy & Usopp Revision

[SnookB]

Wouldn't it scale to all shigan users, as the scan in the OP was talking about the technique as a whole which is capable of taking out Zoro and Luffy, and not specifically shigan when used by Lucci and Kaku?

The scan says the shigan that took down "Luffy and Zoro". Luffy and Zoro were hit by Lucci and Kaku's shigans only, so I can see the logic behind that.

The Golden Ball contributed massively to the KE because it’s heavy. And we see the golden ball connect with Enel, let’s not pretend that somehow only Luffy only hit Enel with his fist and the ball magically shattered.

The ball didn't shatter when it hit Enel, it only shattered when it hit the bell.

I can swing a sledge hammer, my punches don’t hit as hard as a sledge hammer.

If it was a sledgehammer you could carry. If you picked up a sledgehammer too heavy for yourself you'd swing it with far less force than your fist unless you let gravity do the work (which Luffy didn't)

Do we accept these “Naruto mental amps” for One Piece? Because you’re asserting that Luffy got stronger from the time he kicked Enel to the time he threw the GR punch. Do you have any evidence for OP mental amps?

Mental amps? He's shown to get stronger in minutes several times, there's no reason here for him to be weighed down then minutes later evolve beyond it. He did the same with Crocodile's poison, the gap between him and CP9, etc..

I don’t find Luffy’s big super final move of the arc being stronger than his normal attacks to be weird.

His big final move is literally just Gomu Gomu no Rifle, but weighed down. And with a greater wind up to make up for said weight.

 

[Damage3245]

The ball didn't shatter when it hit Enel, it only shattered when it hit the bell.

That's because Enel put up less resistance to it than the bell did.

I can punch through cardboard without breaking my hand, but I will break my hand if I punch a brick wall.

If it was a sledgehammer you could carry. If you picked up a sledgehammer too heavy for yourself you'd swing it with far less force than your fist unless you let gravity do the work (which Luffy didn't)

Luffy also had elasticity to help him.

Mental amps? He's shown to get stronger in minutes several times, there's no reason here for him to be weighed down then minutes later evolve beyond it. He did the same with Crocodile's poison, the gap between him and CP9, etc..

Luffy was weighed down by the ball throughout that sequence. When he did lift it over his head, it was with both arms, and when he was moving with it he was dragging it behind him.

 

[SnookB]

Luffy also had elasticity to help him.

Elasticity argument only works if Luffy was defying gravity and his arm snapped back by itself. We literally see him hold the golden ball up horizentally after getting shanked by Enel.

Luffy was weighed down by the ball throughout that sequence. When he did lift it over his head, it was with both arms, and when he was moving with it he was dragging it behind him.

He went from being unable to hold it still to carrying it with both arms to swinging it with one arm. I don't see how this is an issue when again, him growing to surpass things that previously drop him isn't new.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The ball didn't shatter when it hit Enel, it only shattered when it hit the bell.

What’s between the ball and the bell?

If it was a sledgehammer you could carry. If you picked up a sledgehammer too heavy for yourself you'd swing it with far less force than your fist unless you let gravity do the work (which Luffy didn't)

Even then no lol that’s not how that works at all. I’m going to do WAY more damage to something swinging a bat horizontally (no gravity) than my punch.

Mental amps? He's shown to get stronger in minutes several times, there's no reason here for him to be weighed down then minutes later evolve beyond it. He did the same with Crocodile's poison, the gap between him and CP9, etc..

I was asking for proof tho (scans that refer to these mental amps) and if we accept that here on wiki.

His big final move is literally just Gomu Gomu no Rifle, but weighed down. And with a greater wind up to make up for said weight.

No it’s GGnR with the addition of a massive weight it’s not being nerfed it’s being amped. This is all explained in the OP using the F-V curve.

 

[SnookB]

What’s between the ball and the bell?

Enel and Luffy's fist??

Even then no lol that’s not how that works at all. I’m going to do WAY more damage to something swinging a bat horizontally (no gravity) than my punch.

Okay. And Luffy deals greater damage swinging Mr 3's wax with his foot. That's weight that your body can reasonably swing with enough momentum to actually add onto its force.
You're not doing damage swinging a bat that's two tons horizentally compared to your punch, if the maximum you can carry is 200lbs.

I was asking for proof tho (scans that refer to these mental amps) and if we accept that here on wiki.

What mental amps?? I literally never referenced any of that. Luffy would grow stronger for these:

• Reactive Power Level and Accelerated Development (Luffy improves himself in combat in a short span of time, going from getting thrashed near the beginning of a fight to matching and often surpassing his opponent as the battle progresses. Luffy does not win by slowly wearing himself out but by pushing himself to the "extreme state" that comes when he faces a strong enemy at full strength, and uses this as food for growth)

He consistently adapts to things that previously are out of his league mid-fight, there's no reason he wouldn't just grow during that confrontation/the time he was knocked down to handle the ball's weight.

No it’s GGnR with the addition of a massive weight it’s not being nerfed it’s being amped. This is all explained in the OP using the F-V curve.

We're ignoring the fact that Luffy yanked that ball from dozens of meters away for it to move at that speed to begin with. The golden rifle itself is a result of Luffy's strength to pull the ball and the speed at which he pulled it.

 

[Eseseso]

If I punched someone with a basketball sized golden sphere around my fist, it'd hurt a lot more than a normal punch.

It'd take more energy, but it'd hurt way more.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the fact that it'd take more energy may be an argument against the OP rather than in favor of it.

 

[Damage3245]

He consistently adapts to things that previously are out of his league mid-fight, there's no reason he wouldn't just grow during that confrontation/the time he was knocked down to handle the ball's weight.

It's unnecessarily speculative.

We have a good reason for why Luffy's attack against Enel would do a lot more damage, and it doesn't have to be that he grew several times stronger for his normal attacks.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Enel and Luffy's fist??

Yes so it would have hit Enel.

Okay. And Luffy deals greater damage swinging Mr 3's wax with his foot. That's weight that your body can reasonably swing with enough momentum to actually add onto its force.
You're not doing damage swinging a bat that's two tons horizentally compared to your punch, if the maximum you can carry is 200lbs.

You're missing the point entirely. Adding a weight (sledgehammer, dumbbell, bat, golden ball), if you can lift it, isn't going to weigh down your striking power. It'll increase it. And I urge you, go outside and swing a bat as hard as you can against the side of a tree, then go punch that tree as hard as you can and see which does more damage.

What mental amps?? I literally never referenced any of that. Luffy would grow stronger for these:

• Reactive Power Level and Accelerated Development (Luffy improves himself in combat in a short span of time, going from getting thrashed near the beginning of a fight to matching and often surpassing his opponent as the battle progresses. Luffy does not win by slowly wearing himself out but by pushing himself to the "extreme state" that comes when he faces a strong enemy at full strength, and uses this as food for growth)

He consistently adapts to things that previously are out of his league mid-fight, there's no reason he wouldn't just grow during that confrontation/the time he was knocked down to handle the ball's weight.

Nothing changed between Luffy throwing that kick to throwing that punch.

We're ignoring the fact that Luffy yanked that ball from dozens of meters away for it to move at that speed to begin with. The golden rifle itself is a result of Luffy's strength to pull the ball and the speed at which he pulled it.

That is all lifting strength and not AP.

Snook you aren't refuting the evidence in the OP, you haven't refuted the peer review studies that have produced the F-V curve supporting the OP, you haven't refuted the irl anecdote of boxers punching power with more mass. The Golden Ball doesn't "weigh Luffy down" and therefore make it so his regular punches scale, Luffy has the lifting strength to lift the ball, so all it does is add mass to his punch and therefore increase its power beyond a regular punch.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Elasticity argument only works if Luffy was defying gravity and his arm snapped back by itself. We literally see him hold the golden ball up horizentally after getting shanked by Enel.

That's 100% false. Rubber bands don't care how they're oriented. If aligned with gravity it'll make it easier to stretch but harder to contract, vice versa if misaligned. However, it is a physical truth that the further you stretch a rubber band (without it breaking) the more energy it stores. That's why when you stretch a rubber band back further around your thumb it flies off further.

 

[Deceived3596]

Okay. And Luffy deals greater damage swinging Mr 3's wax with his foot. That's weight that your body can reasonably swing with enough momentum to actually add onto its force.
You're not doing damage swinging a bat that's two tons horizentally compared to your punch, if the maximum you can carry is 200lbs.

Like Arc already said, you're missing the point entirely, the addition of more weight behind something will inherently increase the kinetic energy it generates given the increased mass. With the baseball bat being a perfect example of this since it's objectively correct that someone who swings a bat will generate more kinetic energy behind said swing compared to throwing a punch, even if said swing is slower compared to someone's punch because the bat has more mass and higher density, allowing it to generate more force inherently.

I don't see why you're arguing so vehemently against this when basic physics completely contradict your argument.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm curious what @KingTempest will have to say.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Same

 

[Deceived3596]

KT's gonna post a Light Yagami laughing gif and dip.

 

[KingTempest]

Lol

 

[KingTempest]

This is why I miss my lieutenant Char, cause he'd be able to say all of this stuff I'm about to say in a conciser and nicer manner, cause this just actually pissed me off.
You ignored the entirety of the pre timeskip thread. Like actually. The entire original post here was useless. Like not one thing countered the usage of the golden ball.

But yeah this thread just ignored the entire premise of the calculation, the original thread that got it accepted, and every discussion on it, ever.
I'm actually convinced to make a discussion rule on downgrading this shit.

And I say this shit all the time.

Don't get involved with One Piece downgrade threads if you weren't involved in the threads that upgraded them. You will miss a fuckton of context, like many people in here.

@SnookB I'm sorry you had to deal with whatever tf this was.

This'll be the longest message I ever say so please heed the warning.

Spoiler: Whatever tf this is

Using Weapons to Enhance Attack Potency​

The first main issue with claiming Luffy’s normal punches scale to his Golden Rifle lies with the fact that the Golden Rifle enhances Luffy’s punch with a giant golden ball. A simple anecdote to describe the issue with using this type of scaling can be found in comparing the damage someone can do with their normal punches as opposed to with a hammer. For example, if someone were to horizontally swing a household hammer at someone else’s head, it would deal a lot more damage than a regular punch to the head.

In the original thread that got this scaling accepted, it was argued that the golden ball was only wrapped around Luffy’s wrist and not his fist. Therefore, Luffy’s fist is what’s doing all the damage, making his regular punches scale.

However, this is not the case, we see that the golden ball slams directly into Enel and very likely connected with the bell as it shattered indicating some level of impact. All this means is that the analogy of swinging the hammer contrasted with a regular punch is a valid analog to Luffy’s Golden Rifle versus regular punches and kicks.

It should be rather intuitive that using a bludgeoning weapon enhances the amount of damage and attack potency of a strike when compared to a normal unaided strike. As such, Luffy’s regular punches scaling to his Golden Rifle should be called into question.

This was never the logic we used, ever.

The calculation measures the force that Luffy yanked the ball with his own merit.

The logic you're attempting to say is that we calced a feat of energy using the gold ball, AKA calcing someone's special attack, or an attack with a weapon

Luffy pulled out 17 MT with the Gold Ball by hurting someone, breaking something, or moving something with 17 MT

and saying that we're saying "Luffy did this with the golden ball but it can be scaleable to his physicals".

Luffy did this with the Gold Ball as a weapon, but we can scale it to his physicals with these reasons

And don't say "no I'm not", because you are, since you're taking it as if the golden ball is a weapon.
It's not. It's a prohibitor, It makes him weaker and weighs him down.

Which isn't what we did.

Char's calculation was based on the logic of the ball's movement and its energy being completely provided by Luffy when it was originally trying to weigh him down. The ball weighed Luffy down, making him weaker, and his own force was enough to bring the ball back up and shoot it forward, being done strictly with the energy Luffy uses in his punches.

If you can't lift a boulder, you can't use the boulder to hit somebody, AKA "0 energy" since you can't bring the rock up to use it to hurt someone, and you can't move it at all. But if you're strong enough to lift the boulder with enough force and speed to hurt somebody, then most likely you'd be able to output that energy on your own, especially when that weight is acting as a force fighting against your energy.

We said that in the original thread and in all of the mini discussions to follow.

The w/ Golden Rifle section is the fact that Luffy himself generate enough force in the golden ball for the value of the golden ball to even happen. Then ykw scales above.

Golden Rifle is him, generating X force, and translating that into Kinetic Energy

His Striking Strength cannot be inferior to Golden Rifle's energy because Luffy was the cataclysm for that much energy.
He employed that much energy into the attack himself. No gravity, or angular movement (he actually had to go against gravity, so he employed more than 17 megatons into the punch)

And before you mfs say "this is a lifting strength feat", yes, it is, but it's also striking.

The site rules on Lifting Strength state this in the Calculations Page

However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring. If we use real world ratios, when the world's heaviest deadlift is compared to the world's most powerful punch, the deadlift has nearly 5 times more energy, demonstrating the disparity between the two types of movements.

And this is a lifting strength feat of ridiculous measure, moving the ball in 0.0515 seconds, being able to be something scaleable to striking strength of the character.
Many characters do this, and I'm not a fan of "well all because they do it doesn't mean it's right" that you're most definitely going to say, because it's right and backed up by the thought out policies of the wiki, including all of the characters who provide these types of force from lifting and it scaling to their own physicals.

The following points will elaborate on this:

The Force-Velocity Curve​

The second main issue with the current Golden Rifle scaling can be explained with the Force-Velocity curve. This curve describes the relationship between the exerted force associated with moving weights (like say a giant golden ball attached to your arm) and the speed at which they can be moved. The relationship shows that speed changes exponentially as the force exerted to move a weight changes. The takeaway being that towards heavier weights, mass becomes the dominant factor in the force behind its motion as opposed to speed.

Damage.
If you have a weight on your leg, will you kick harder?
Is the force on your leg that's making you slower somehow make you kick harder since you have more weight on your leg?
Are you by default gonna punch harder if you have a 100 kg dumbbell in your hand? Are we acting as if the 100 kg dumbbell isn't heavy? As if it's not making you slower?

That is a measurement of the increase of mass and the increase of speed to the increase of force.
NOT THE INCREASE OF MASS AND THE DECREASE OF SPEED TO THE INCREASE OF FORCE.

Luffy was getting weighed down by the ball. Luffy was slower, and Luffy was struggling to even lift the ball prior to the punch.

You wanna tell me that Luffy while slower and can barely even move can output more energy since he's being weighted down?

So all the manga fighters who wear weights while they're fighting (Goku, Piccolo, Rock Lee, Might Guy), they're all stronger cause they have weights on their limbs?

Like this logic is so flawed, and not even that it's just flawed, it's useless to the calc at hand.

Where this applies to Luffy’s Golden Rifle is best shown with a boxing anecdote. The idea of heavy hands vs speed when it comes to punching power. A great and popular example of this is comparing the slow powerful slugs of George Foreman to the rapid strikes of Muhammad Ali. Ali threw the faster punches but Foreman hit harder because he had more weight to put into his punches. That’s why we have weight classes in martial sports to begin with, when it comes to combat the mass behind a strike usually matters more than the speed behind said punch. And this is portrayed scientifically in that Force-Velocity curve.

Bad argument.
Those are 2 completely different people.
If these were "Ali in 5023 added more weight to his punches but punched slower and it was stronger than his light quick jabs in 5055", then it'd be better.

Regardless, the main point here stands that Luffy adding more mass behind his punch would logically increase the power of his punches more easily than moving faster would. Which supports the notion that Luffy’s Golden Rifle should be stronger than his usual punches.

Luffy didn't just add more mass behind his punch.
Luffy counteracted the weight on his punch.
You act like he swung a hammer at him and hit him.
He moved something that weighed him down and used its counteracted force against his opponent.

And "the main point here" or that entire quote is useless.
The 17 megatons isn't the calculation for the golden rifle.
The 17 megatons is the calculation for Luffy yanking the ball to do the golden rifle.

Luffy’s Punch Wind-Up and Elasticity​

The strength of Luffy’s punches does not come from his muscle strength alone, but the elasticity of his body thanks to his Devil Fruit. When he throws his back his fist dozens or hundreds of meters to wind up a punch, that is going to produce a hit that is stronger than if Luffy had punched with no wind-up.

When Luffy performs his Golden Rifle against Enel, he has a huge wind-up, throwing the Golden Ball forward from a distance so that it can gather momentum and deliver more kinetic energy.

In the manga, chapter 333, it is indicated that Luffy did not have any wind-up on his Gum-Gum Pistol that he hit Usopp in the face with as he starts the “Gum-Gum…” while he’s cartwheeling and dodging, then throws the “... Pistol” which hits Usopp. This is backed up by the anime version of the fight, Episode 236, which does not show any wind-up on the punch.

So the one direct hit that Usopp took from Luffy and continued to fight after that is already guaranteed to be weaker than his Golden Rifle attack due to the lack of wind-up for it.

This is corroborated by science as well with Hooke’s law. This law basically says that more force is required to stretch an elastic object over a longer distance. Which should be intuitive, as we see this in the layman example of stretching a rubber band. You can launch paper balls a further distance with a rubber band the more it gets stretched back. That is why, scientifically, when Luffy stretches his arms (or legs) back further, they have more force behind their strikes.

Damage.

Does this calculation calculate the momentum?
Does this calculation utilize his elasticity?
Does this calculation showcase the effect of the windup?
No.

The calculation measures the amount of force Luffy used to yank the ball and punch with it. So stop trying to use the wrong science for this feat. Luffy yanked a ball at Hypersonic+ speeds. That's what this calculation is.

These would be beautiful arguments in a scaling thread. Saying Luffy's golden rifle's scaling is superior to a regular punch since it did more damage to something, ok.

This isn't a "bare fist vs weapon" discussion.

THE CALCULATION WE USED DOWNPLAYED THE ENERGY OF THE GOLDEN RIFLE.

What irritated me then and now is that you never understood the calc is lowballed.

I said it, you brushed by it, 6 months later you ignored it and made a new thread that doesn't even consider it.

We didn't calculate momentum.
We didn't calculate the energy from spinning the ball.
We didn't utilize the elasticity from the arm.

We used Luffy yanking the ball at Mach 18. That's it.

You are acting like Luffy broke a 17 MT item and we're scaling his regular hits to that.
We're not.
We're calcing Luffy moving the ball with the entirety of his own energy.

You keep bringing up the damage that Enel took and the effect to the ball and the bell and all that other bullshit that the calculation completely wipes out.
The calc is Luffy swinging a ball.

All that other shit isn't incorporated, and the rifle in reality is dozens higher than 17 Megatons, but we didn't calculate that, we calculated Luffy's energy and Luffy's energy alone.

I said this shit too in the original thread.

That's what makes it a "rifle".

What was calced was Luffy moving the ball in a straight line at a certain speed. The "rifle" portion wasn't, which is why there is no calc of spinning the ball.

The punch portion would be what scales to Luffy's regular physicals, which he already calced.
Nobody calced spinning the ball.

Backscaling is unfounded.

Unless Char calced the momentum caused by spinning the ball, which he didn't, then this is fair game

So next

Luffy vs. Usopp in Water 7​

Usopp took one more hit from Luffy during that fight, in chapter 333, where Luffy does use a wind-up to build up momentum for his Gum-Gum Bullet… which knocks Usopp down and ends the fight.

That is a total of two attacks that Usopp took from Luffy during their entire exchange; two hits for Usopp to go down. It is exceedingly generous to say that Usopp’s durability fully scales to an all-out Luffy, when the very depiction of their fight showcases how Luffy outclasses Usopp in every way. The fact that Usopp goes down so easily is just additional evidence that goes against him scaling to Golden Rifle calc even if we generously assumed that Luffy’s attacks were anywhere near as strong as the full value of that calc. Furthermore, Enel had taken far more damage and attacks prior to getting one shot by Luffy’s Golden Rifle. So the notion that Usopp required more power to take down than Enel, and thus his durability should scale higher, is a false notion as well.

I'm about to call you the Ignorer of Context, because this is ******* hilarious how you just ignored the fact that Usopp was injured several times over.

Usopp got jumped to the point of a broken nose, bloodied body, injured bones, and complete unconsciousness.
He didn't even get his wounds treated, he was just bandaged.
THE DAY LATER
They flat out said right before Usopp fought that he was seriously injured.
He took a punch from him then was fine enough to absorb the force of his bazooka attack, which is twice as strong as a regular damn attack, with the impact dial.
Then he shot it out, and the recoil from the impact dial ****** his arm up.
Then he got hit with the bullet.

The impact dial is an attack that hurts the insides of an enemy and also badly harms the user, which is why those goofballs in skypiea kept getting hurt and wearing gloves to not get harmed by the impact dial.

Usopp was weak when he took that last hit.

Read the thread. That's about to be every response I have right now.

Like actually, please read the thread.

"Luffy used a stretch move and beat him, so golden rifle is stronger". The ignoring of the context of the fight to push this "golden rifle is his strongest move" narrative is hilarious.

Luffy’s Regular Attacks vs. Golden Rifle​

There is additional reason to suspect that Luffy's regular attacks don't scale in potency to his Golden Rifle when you consider that Golden Rifle is the finisher in his fight against Enel and is clearly portrayed as being on another level when it soundly defeats him. Luffy's regular attacks are certainly capable of injuring Enel during their fight, and knocking him down [although he can get back up again] - but while a barrage of Luffy's regular attacks just knock Enel down and that's it, the Golden Rifle completely demolishes Enel in his amped-up Aimaru form, shatters the top of his ship and keeps going without faltering so that Luffy can ring the giant golden bell.

"His regular attacks"
Sends Luffy using his absolute strongest attacks on him.

The Gatling, an attack implied to be his strongest attack.
The Bazooka, the attack we made utilize the 2x multiplier.
The Rifle, an attack that's pretty much a stronger pistol.

Like what now?

Also, it's accepted, in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD TALKING ABOUT LUFFY'S GROWTH, that Luffy got stronger.

Damage we have ANOTHER KEY FOR LUFFY USING THE RIFLE IN A STRONGER STATE.

Small City level (Equal to Roronoa Zoro. Was capable of harming Wyper, and fought against him equally for a long period of time. Casually superior to his Burn Bazooka, which is this strong, forcing Wyper to equip a breath dial. Destroyed his shield with a Gomu Gomu no Bazooka. Over time, he got strong enough to where he could fight evenly with Enel, and he caught his trident while he tried to stab him), City level via Environmental Destruction | City level (Could one shot Enel by the end of their fight. His Golden Rifle is strong enough to move the Golden Bell)

WE HAVE A WHOLE OTHER KEY FOR IT.

Like are you actually serious right now? You can't be serious with this.

And again, this is useless to the topic at hand, that the calc doesn't utilize everything you're talking about.

Even when Luffy kicked Enel in the face while he had the golden ball attached to his arm, and Enel was in his transformed state, Luffy didn't send Enel flying hard enough to smash everything in his path... By all visual evidence of Luffy's attack effectiveness, the Golden Rifle that he threw at Enel as his final move had a bigger impact on Enel and did more damage than anything he was capable of previously. So this makes it highly dubious that his regular punches would be equal to this monumental attack.

Come the **** on.

Damage: Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger than his non stretched attacks
Damage: Luffy's non stretched attack couldn't do this, but his golden stretched attack did this.

All you did was enforce that Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger, not that the rifle is stronger.

And again.
Read the thread, that you were in.
You had this same argument, and we debunked it.

Having so much mass on the end of his arm, and launching the attack quickly, is going to end up making the attack more powerful than a typical punch. Like a person wielding a hammer if their hand could smash in the skull of someone whereas an ordinary punch wouldn't do as much damage to them. This seems roughly comparable to that to me, and explains the massive difference between say Luffy kicking Enel in the face and not sending him flying whereas the Gold Rifle certainly does not only send Enel flying but also moves the Golden Bell on top of that.

An unnamed attack. We already approved of the fact that Luffy can ADD greater force with twisting and stretching. It's HIS BODY'S ability. An unnamed kick to Enel's face<<<< a named technique with a far longer stretch of his arm than his usual attacks (outside of just the Bazooka on Wapol)

The total of like 10 messages in this thread debunks the entire premise of your OP.

Your OP utilizes shit we weren't worried about.

The calculation calculates Luffy yanking the ball.

All that other shit, momentum, rotational KE, weight and force, are bullshit.

We aren't talking about powerscaling Luffy's regular attacks to his ball's energy.
We are talking about the energy Luffy outputted by yanking that ball.

That's my two sense.
And don't start tackling my anger instead of my points like you and everyone else always do in downgrade threads. Tackle my points only and my points alone.

If this is what happens when me and Char are separated from the verse, a downgrade completely undermining everything Charmander and I fought months for and ignoring a 5 page thread with 70% of it is full of arguments we counteracted, then I'm ashamed of the state of the verse's scalers, especially when you have an army of yes men who can't read past the first page of One Piece to actually analyze the faults in this argument.

The entire OP was useless in the grand scheme of things and in the grand scheme of the calc.

So yeah. That's my argument

 

[Eseseso]

This is why I miss my lieutenant Char, cause he'd be able to say all of this stuff I'm about to say in a conciser and nicer manner, cause this just actually pissed me off.
You ignored the entirety of the pre timeskip thread. Like actually. The entire original post here was useless. Like not one thing countered the usage of the golden ball.

But yeah this thread just ignored the entire premise of the calculation, the original thread that got it accepted, and every discussion on it, ever.
I'm actually convinced to make a discussion rule on downgrading this shit.

And I say this shit all the time.

Don't get involved with One Piece downgrade threads if you weren't involved in the threads that upgraded them. You will miss a fuckton of context, like many people in here.

@SnookB I'm sorry you had to deal with whatever tf this was.

This'll be the longest message I ever say so please heed the warning.

Spoiler: Whatever tf this is

This was never the logic we used, ever.

The calculation measures the force that Luffy yanked the ball with his own merit.

The logic you're attempting to say is that we calced a feat of energy using the gold ball, AKA calcing someone's special attack, or an attack with a weapon

and saying that we're saying "Luffy did this with the golden ball but it can be scaleable to his physicals".

And don't say "no I'm not", because you are, since you're taking it as if the golden ball is a weapon.
It's not. It's a prohibitor, It makes him weaker and weighs him down.

Which isn't what we did.

Char's calculation was based on the logic of the ball's movement and its energy being completely provided by Luffy when it was originally trying to weigh him down. The ball weighed Luffy down, making him weaker, and his own force was enough to bring the ball back up and shoot it forward, being done strictly with the energy Luffy uses in his punches.

If you can't lift a boulder, you can't use the boulder to hit somebody, AKA "0 energy" since you can't bring the rock up to use it to hurt someone, and you can't move it at all. But if you're strong enough to lift the boulder with enough force and speed to hurt somebody, then most likely you'd be able to output that energy on your own, especially when that weight is acting as a force fighting against your energy.

We said that in the original thread and in all of the mini discussions to follow.



And before you mfs say "this is a lifting strength feat", yes, it is, but it's also striking.

The site rules on Lifting Strength state this in the Calculations Page

And this is a lifting strength feat of ridiculous measure, moving the ball in 0.0515 seconds, being able to be something scaleable to striking strength of the character.
Many characters do this, and I'm not a fan of "well all because they do it doesn't mean it's right" that you're most definitely going to say, because it's right and backed up by the thought out policies of the wiki, including all of the characters who provide these types of force from lifting and it scaling to their own physicals.

Damage.
If you have a weight on your leg, will you kick harder?
Is the force on your leg that's making you slower somehow make you kick harder since you have more weight on your leg?
Are you by default gonna punch harder if you have a 100 kg dumbbell in your hand? Are we acting as if the 100 kg dumbbell isn't heavy? As if it's not making you slower?

That is a measurement of the increase of mass and the increase of speed to the increase of force.
NOT THE INCREASE OF MASS AND THE DECREASE OF SPEED TO THE INCREASE OF FORCE.

Luffy was getting weighed down by the ball. Luffy was slower, and Luffy was struggling to even lift the ball prior to the punch.

You wanna tell me that Luffy while slower and can barely even move can output more energy since he's being weighted down?

So all the manga fighters who wear weights while they're fighting (Goku, Piccolo, Rock Lee, Might Guy), they're all stronger cause they have weights on their limbs?

Like this logic is so flawed, and not even that it's just flawed, it's useless to the calc at hand.

Bad argument.
Those are 2 completely different people.
If these were "Ali in 5023 added more weight to his punches but punched slower and it was stronger than his light quick jabs in 5055", then it'd be better.

Luffy didn't just add more mass behind his punch.
Luffy counteracted the weight on his punch.
You act like he swung a hammer at him and hit him.
He moved something that weighed him down and used its counteracted force against his opponent.

And "the main point here" or that entire quote is useless.
The 17 megatons isn't the calculation for the golden rifle.
The 17 megatons is the calculation for Luffy yanking the ball to do the golden rifle.

Damage.

Does this calculation calculate the momentum?
Does this calculation utilize his elasticity?
Does this calculation showcase the effect of the windup?
No.

The calculation measures the amount of force Luffy used to yank the ball and punch with it. So stop trying to use the wrong science for this feat. Luffy yanked a ball at Hypersonic+ speeds. That's what this calculation is.

These would be beautiful arguments in a scaling thread. Saying Luffy's golden rifle's scaling is superior to a regular punch since it did more damage to something, ok.

This isn't a "bare fist vs weapon" discussion.

THE CALCULATION WE USED DOWNPLAYED THE ENERGY OF THE GOLDEN RIFLE.

What irritated me then and now is that you never understood the calc is lowballed.

I said it, you brushed by it, 6 months later you ignored it and made a new thread that doesn't even consider it.

We didn't calculate momentum.
We didn't calculate the energy from spinning the ball.
We didn't utilize the elasticity from the arm.

We used Luffy yanking the ball at Mach 18. That's it.

You are acting like Luffy broke a 17 MT item and we're scaling his regular hits to that.
We're not.
We're calcing Luffy moving the ball with the entirety of his own energy.

You keep bringing up the damage that Enel took and the effect to the ball and the bell and all that other bullshit that the calculation completely wipes out.
The calc is Luffy swinging a ball.

All that other shit isn't incorporated, and the rifle in reality is dozens higher than 17 Megatons, but we didn't calculate that, we calculated Luffy's energy and Luffy's energy alone.

I said this shit too in the original thread.


So next

I'm about to call you the Ignorer of Context, because this is ******* hilarious how you just ignored the fact that Usopp was injured several times over.

Usopp got jumped to the point of a broken nose, bloodied body, injured bones, and complete unconsciousness.
He didn't even get his wounds treated, he was just bandaged.
THE DAY LATER
They flat out said right before Usopp fought that he was seriously injured.
He took a punch from him then was fine enough to absorb the force of his bazooka attack, which is twice as strong as a regular damn attack, with the impact dial.
Then he shot it out, and the recoil from the impact dial ****** his arm up.
Then he got hit with the bullet.

The impact dial is an attack that hurts the insides of an enemy and also badly harms the user, which is why those goofballs in skypiea kept getting hurt and wearing gloves to not get harmed by the impact dial.

Usopp was weak when he took that last hit.

Read the thread. That's about to be every response I have right now.

Like actually, please read the thread.

"Luffy used a stretch move and beat him, so golden rifle is stronger". The ignoring of the context of the fight to push this "golden rifle is his strongest move" narrative is hilarious.

"His regular attacks"
Sends Luffy using his absolute strongest attacks on him.

The Gatling, an attack implied to be his strongest attack.
The Bazooka, the attack we made utilize the 2x multiplier.
The Rifle, an attack that's pretty much a stronger pistol.

Like what now?

Also, it's accepted, in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD TALKING ABOUT LUFFY'S GROWTH, that Luffy got stronger.

Damage we have ANOTHER KEY FOR LUFFY USING THE RIFLE IN A STRONGER STATE.

WE HAVE A WHOLE OTHER KEY FOR IT.

Like are you actually serious right now? You can't be serious with this.

And again, this is useless to the topic at hand, that the calc doesn't utilize everything you're talking about.

Come the **** on.

Damage: Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger than his non stretched attacks
Damage: Luffy's non stretched attack couldn't do this, but his golden stretched attack did this.

All you did was enforce that Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger, not that the rifle is stronger.

And again.
Read the thread, that you were in.
You had this same argument, and we debunked it.


The total of like 10 messages in this thread debunks the entire premise of your OP.

Your OP utilizes shit we weren't worried about.

The calculation calculates Luffy yanking the ball.

All that other shit, momentum, rotational KE, weight and force, are bullshit.

We aren't talking about powerscaling Luffy's regular attacks to his ball's energy.
We are talking about the energy Luffy outputted by yanking that ball.

That's my two sense.
And don't start tackling my anger instead of my points like you and everyone else always do in downgrade threads. Tackle my points only and my points alone.

If this is what happens when me and Char are separated from the verse, a downgrade completely undermining everything Charmander and I fought months for and ignoring a 5 page thread with 70% of it is full of arguments we counteracted, then I'm ashamed of the state of the verse's scalers, especially when you have an army of yes men who can't read past the first page of One Piece to actually analyze the faults in this argument.

The entire OP was useless in the grand scheme of things and in the grand scheme of the calc.

So yeah. That's my argument

King went full berserk Kratos on this thread.

But I do agree with his points so I switch to disagreeing with OP.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'll read and respond to any points I disagree with in a hot minute since Damage is asleep

 

[Kachon123]

Wanted to wait for KT before voting and he delivered. I disagree with the OP FRA.

 

[Eseseso]

The music Damage heard when Kingtempest saw this thread:

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Peak meat riding fr

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This is why I miss my lieutenant Char, cause he'd be able to say all of this stuff I'm about to say in a conciser and nicer manner, cause this just actually pissed me off.
You ignored the entirety of the pre timeskip thread. Like actually. The entire original post here was useless. Like not one thing countered the usage of the golden ball.

But yeah this thread just ignored the entire premise of the calculation, the original thread that got it accepted, and every discussion on it, ever.
I'm actually convinced to make a discussion rule on downgrading this shit.

And I say this shit all the time.

Don't get involved with One Piece downgrade threads if you weren't involved in the threads that upgraded them. You will miss a fuckton of context, like many people in here.

@SnookB I'm sorry you had to deal with whatever tf this was.

This'll be the longest message I ever say so please heed the warning.

Spoiler: Whatever tf this is

This was never the logic we used, ever.

The calculation measures the force that Luffy yanked the ball with his own merit.

The logic you're attempting to say is that we calced a feat of energy using the gold ball, AKA calcing someone's special attack, or an attack with a weapon

and saying that we're saying "Luffy did this with the golden ball but it can be scaleable to his physicals".

And don't say "no I'm not", because you are, since you're taking it as if the golden ball is a weapon.
It's not. It's a prohibitor, It makes him weaker and weighs him down.

Which isn't what we did.

Char's calculation was based on the logic of the ball's movement and its energy being completely provided by Luffy when it was originally trying to weigh him down. The ball weighed Luffy down, making him weaker, and his own force was enough to bring the ball back up and shoot it forward, being done strictly with the energy Luffy uses in his punches.

If you can't lift a boulder, you can't use the boulder to hit somebody, AKA "0 energy" since you can't bring the rock up to use it to hurt someone, and you can't move it at all. But if you're strong enough to lift the boulder with enough force and speed to hurt somebody, then most likely you'd be able to output that energy on your own, especially when that weight is acting as a force fighting against your energy.

We said that in the original thread and in all of the mini discussions to follow.



And before you mfs say "this is a lifting strength feat", yes, it is, but it's also striking.

The site rules on Lifting Strength state this in the Calculations Page

And this is a lifting strength feat of ridiculous measure, moving the ball in 0.0515 seconds, being able to be something scaleable to striking strength of the character.
Many characters do this, and I'm not a fan of "well all because they do it doesn't mean it's right" that you're most definitely going to say, because it's right and backed up by the thought out policies of the wiki, including all of the characters who provide these types of force from lifting and it scaling to their own physicals.

Damage.
If you have a weight on your leg, will you kick harder?
Is the force on your leg that's making you slower somehow make you kick harder since you have more weight on your leg?
Are you by default gonna punch harder if you have a 100 kg dumbbell in your hand? Are we acting as if the 100 kg dumbbell isn't heavy? As if it's not making you slower?

That is a measurement of the increase of mass and the increase of speed to the increase of force.
NOT THE INCREASE OF MASS AND THE DECREASE OF SPEED TO THE INCREASE OF FORCE.

Luffy was getting weighed down by the ball. Luffy was slower, and Luffy was struggling to even lift the ball prior to the punch.

You wanna tell me that Luffy while slower and can barely even move can output more energy since he's being weighted down?

So all the manga fighters who wear weights while they're fighting (Goku, Piccolo, Rock Lee, Might Guy), they're all stronger cause they have weights on their limbs?

Like this logic is so flawed, and not even that it's just flawed, it's useless to the calc at hand.

Bad argument.
Those are 2 completely different people.
If these were "Ali in 5023 added more weight to his punches but punched slower and it was stronger than his light quick jabs in 5055", then it'd be better.

Luffy didn't just add more mass behind his punch.
Luffy counteracted the weight on his punch.
You act like he swung a hammer at him and hit him.
He moved something that weighed him down and used its counteracted force against his opponent.

And "the main point here" or that entire quote is useless.
The 17 megatons isn't the calculation for the golden rifle.
The 17 megatons is the calculation for Luffy yanking the ball to do the golden rifle.

Damage.

Does this calculation calculate the momentum?
Does this calculation utilize his elasticity?
Does this calculation showcase the effect of the windup?
No.

The calculation measures the amount of force Luffy used to yank the ball and punch with it. So stop trying to use the wrong science for this feat. Luffy yanked a ball at Hypersonic+ speeds. That's what this calculation is.

These would be beautiful arguments in a scaling thread. Saying Luffy's golden rifle's scaling is superior to a regular punch since it did more damage to something, ok.

This isn't a "bare fist vs weapon" discussion.

THE CALCULATION WE USED DOWNPLAYED THE ENERGY OF THE GOLDEN RIFLE.

What irritated me then and now is that you never understood the calc is lowballed.

I said it, you brushed by it, 6 months later you ignored it and made a new thread that doesn't even consider it.

We didn't calculate momentum.
We didn't calculate the energy from spinning the ball.
We didn't utilize the elasticity from the arm.

We used Luffy yanking the ball at Mach 18. That's it.

You are acting like Luffy broke a 17 MT item and we're scaling his regular hits to that.
We're not.
We're calcing Luffy moving the ball with the entirety of his own energy.

You keep bringing up the damage that Enel took and the effect to the ball and the bell and all that other bullshit that the calculation completely wipes out.
The calc is Luffy swinging a ball.

All that other shit isn't incorporated, and the rifle in reality is dozens higher than 17 Megatons, but we didn't calculate that, we calculated Luffy's energy and Luffy's energy alone.

I said this shit too in the original thread.


So next

I'm about to call you the Ignorer of Context, because this is ******* hilarious how you just ignored the fact that Usopp was injured several times over.

Usopp got jumped to the point of a broken nose, bloodied body, injured bones, and complete unconsciousness.
He didn't even get his wounds treated, he was just bandaged.
THE DAY LATER
They flat out said right before Usopp fought that he was seriously injured.
He took a punch from him then was fine enough to absorb the force of his bazooka attack, which is twice as strong as a regular damn attack, with the impact dial.
Then he shot it out, and the recoil from the impact dial ****** his arm up.
Then he got hit with the bullet.

The impact dial is an attack that hurts the insides of an enemy and also badly harms the user, which is why those goofballs in skypiea kept getting hurt and wearing gloves to not get harmed by the impact dial.

Usopp was weak when he took that last hit.

Read the thread. That's about to be every response I have right now.

Like actually, please read the thread.

"Luffy used a stretch move and beat him, so golden rifle is stronger". The ignoring of the context of the fight to push this "golden rifle is his strongest move" narrative is hilarious.

"His regular attacks"
Sends Luffy using his absolute strongest attacks on him.

The Gatling, an attack implied to be his strongest attack.
The Bazooka, the attack we made utilize the 2x multiplier.
The Rifle, an attack that's pretty much a stronger pistol.

Like what now?

Also, it's accepted, in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD TALKING ABOUT LUFFY'S GROWTH, that Luffy got stronger.

Damage we have ANOTHER KEY FOR LUFFY USING THE RIFLE IN A STRONGER STATE.

WE HAVE A WHOLE OTHER KEY FOR IT.

Like are you actually serious right now? You can't be serious with this.

And again, this is useless to the topic at hand, that the calc doesn't utilize everything you're talking about.

Come the **** on.

Damage: Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger than his non stretched attacks
Damage: Luffy's non stretched attack couldn't do this, but his golden stretched attack did this.

All you did was enforce that Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger, not that the rifle is stronger.

And again.
Read the thread, that you were in.
You had this same argument, and we debunked it.


The total of like 10 messages in this thread debunks the entire premise of your OP.

Your OP utilizes shit we weren't worried about.

The calculation calculates Luffy yanking the ball.

All that other shit, momentum, rotational KE, weight and force, are bullshit.

We aren't talking about powerscaling Luffy's regular attacks to his ball's energy.
We are talking about the energy Luffy outputted by yanking that ball.

That's my two sense.
And don't start tackling my anger instead of my points like you and everyone else always do in downgrade threads. Tackle my points only and my points alone.

If this is what happens when me and Char are separated from the verse, a downgrade completely undermining everything Charmander and I fought months for and ignoring a 5 page thread with 70% of it is full of arguments we counteracted, then I'm ashamed of the state of the verse's scalers, especially when you have an army of yes men who can't read past the first page of One Piece to actually analyze the faults in this argument.

The entire OP was useless in the grand scheme of things and in the grand scheme of the calc.

So yeah. That's my argument

I agree with this

The "Can you punch harder while wearing weights analogy" really works

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, KT went off and summed this up very well. I disagree with the OP

 

[Eseseso]

I'll read and respond to any points I disagree with in a hot minute since Damage is asleep

What do you think?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

What do you think?

I haven't read it yet, hence the I'll respond to anything I disagree with later. Finals crunch time is going dummy on me rn

 

[Deceived3596]

Arc's waiting for me to read it to her because my voice is deep, sensual and makes her toes curl.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

makes her toes curl.

I'm sick

 

[Eseseso]

I haven't read it yet, hence the I'll respond to anything I disagree with later. Finals crunch time is going dummy on me rn

Can relate, got a 15-page essay due in one week for a Russian Studies class.

And in 3 weeks, I'll have to take 3 finals tests in a period of just 2 days.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Can relate, got a 15-page essay due in one week for a Russian Studies class.

And in 3 weeks, I'll have to take 3 finals tests in a period 2 days.

Good luck brother

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

This is why I miss my lieutenant Char, cause he'd be able to say all of this stuff I'm about to say in a conciser and nicer manner, cause this just actually pissed me off.
You ignored the entirety of the pre timeskip thread. Like actually. The entire original post here was useless. Like not one thing countered the usage of the golden ball.

But yeah this thread just ignored the entire premise of the calculation, the original thread that got it accepted, and every discussion on it, ever.
I'm actually convinced to make a discussion rule on downgrading this shit.

And I say this shit all the time.

Don't get involved with One Piece downgrade threads if you weren't involved in the threads that upgraded them. You will miss a fuckton of context, like many people in here.

@SnookB I'm sorry you had to deal with whatever tf this was.

This'll be the longest message I ever say so please heed the warning.

Spoiler: Whatever tf this is

This was never the logic we used, ever.

The calculation measures the force that Luffy yanked the ball with his own merit.

The logic you're attempting to say is that we calced a feat of energy using the gold ball, AKA calcing someone's special attack, or an attack with a weapon

and saying that we're saying "Luffy did this with the golden ball but it can be scaleable to his physicals".

And don't say "no I'm not", because you are, since you're taking it as if the golden ball is a weapon.
It's not. It's a prohibitor, It makes him weaker and weighs him down.

Which isn't what we did.

Char's calculation was based on the logic of the ball's movement and its energy being completely provided by Luffy when it was originally trying to weigh him down. The ball weighed Luffy down, making him weaker, and his own force was enough to bring the ball back up and shoot it forward, being done strictly with the energy Luffy uses in his punches.

If you can't lift a boulder, you can't use the boulder to hit somebody, AKA "0 energy" since you can't bring the rock up to use it to hurt someone, and you can't move it at all. But if you're strong enough to lift the boulder with enough force and speed to hurt somebody, then most likely you'd be able to output that energy on your own, especially when that weight is acting as a force fighting against your energy.

We said that in the original thread and in all of the mini discussions to follow.



And before you mfs say "this is a lifting strength feat", yes, it is, but it's also striking.

The site rules on Lifting Strength state this in the Calculations Page

And this is a lifting strength feat of ridiculous measure, moving the ball in 0.0515 seconds, being able to be something scaleable to striking strength of the character.
Many characters do this, and I'm not a fan of "well all because they do it doesn't mean it's right" that you're most definitely going to say, because it's right and backed up by the thought out policies of the wiki, including all of the characters who provide these types of force from lifting and it scaling to their own physicals.

Damage.
If you have a weight on your leg, will you kick harder?
Is the force on your leg that's making you slower somehow make you kick harder since you have more weight on your leg?
Are you by default gonna punch harder if you have a 100 kg dumbbell in your hand? Are we acting as if the 100 kg dumbbell isn't heavy? As if it's not making you slower?

That is a measurement of the increase of mass and the increase of speed to the increase of force.
NOT THE INCREASE OF MASS AND THE DECREASE OF SPEED TO THE INCREASE OF FORCE.

Luffy was getting weighed down by the ball. Luffy was slower, and Luffy was struggling to even lift the ball prior to the punch.

You wanna tell me that Luffy while slower and can barely even move can output more energy since he's being weighted down?

So all the manga fighters who wear weights while they're fighting (Goku, Piccolo, Rock Lee, Might Guy), they're all stronger cause they have weights on their limbs?

Like this logic is so flawed, and not even that it's just flawed, it's useless to the calc at hand.

Bad argument.
Those are 2 completely different people.
If these were "Ali in 5023 added more weight to his punches but punched slower and it was stronger than his light quick jabs in 5055", then it'd be better.

Luffy didn't just add more mass behind his punch.
Luffy counteracted the weight on his punch.
You act like he swung a hammer at him and hit him.
He moved something that weighed him down and used its counteracted force against his opponent.

And "the main point here" or that entire quote is useless.
The 17 megatons isn't the calculation for the golden rifle.
The 17 megatons is the calculation for Luffy yanking the ball to do the golden rifle.

Damage.

Does this calculation calculate the momentum?
Does this calculation utilize his elasticity?
Does this calculation showcase the effect of the windup?
No.

The calculation measures the amount of force Luffy used to yank the ball and punch with it. So stop trying to use the wrong science for this feat. Luffy yanked a ball at Hypersonic+ speeds. That's what this calculation is.

These would be beautiful arguments in a scaling thread. Saying Luffy's golden rifle's scaling is superior to a regular punch since it did more damage to something, ok.

This isn't a "bare fist vs weapon" discussion.

THE CALCULATION WE USED DOWNPLAYED THE ENERGY OF THE GOLDEN RIFLE.

What irritated me then and now is that you never understood the calc is lowballed.

I said it, you brushed by it, 6 months later you ignored it and made a new thread that doesn't even consider it.

We didn't calculate momentum.
We didn't calculate the energy from spinning the ball.
We didn't utilize the elasticity from the arm.

We used Luffy yanking the ball at Mach 18. That's it.

You are acting like Luffy broke a 17 MT item and we're scaling his regular hits to that.
We're not.
We're calcing Luffy moving the ball with the entirety of his own energy.

You keep bringing up the damage that Enel took and the effect to the ball and the bell and all that other bullshit that the calculation completely wipes out.
The calc is Luffy swinging a ball.

All that other shit isn't incorporated, and the rifle in reality is dozens higher than 17 Megatons, but we didn't calculate that, we calculated Luffy's energy and Luffy's energy alone.

I said this shit too in the original thread.


So next

I'm about to call you the Ignorer of Context, because this is ******* hilarious how you just ignored the fact that Usopp was injured several times over.

Usopp got jumped to the point of a broken nose, bloodied body, injured bones, and complete unconsciousness.
He didn't even get his wounds treated, he was just bandaged.
THE DAY LATER
They flat out said right before Usopp fought that he was seriously injured.
He took a punch from him then was fine enough to absorb the force of his bazooka attack, which is twice as strong as a regular damn attack, with the impact dial.
Then he shot it out, and the recoil from the impact dial ****** his arm up.
Then he got hit with the bullet.

The impact dial is an attack that hurts the insides of an enemy and also badly harms the user, which is why those goofballs in skypiea kept getting hurt and wearing gloves to not get harmed by the impact dial.

Usopp was weak when he took that last hit.

Read the thread. That's about to be every response I have right now.

Like actually, please read the thread.

"Luffy used a stretch move and beat him, so golden rifle is stronger". The ignoring of the context of the fight to push this "golden rifle is his strongest move" narrative is hilarious.

"His regular attacks"
Sends Luffy using his absolute strongest attacks on him.

The Gatling, an attack implied to be his strongest attack.
The Bazooka, the attack we made utilize the 2x multiplier.
The Rifle, an attack that's pretty much a stronger pistol.

Like what now?

Also, it's accepted, in EVERY SINGLE DAMN THREAD TALKING ABOUT LUFFY'S GROWTH, that Luffy got stronger.

Damage we have ANOTHER KEY FOR LUFFY USING THE RIFLE IN A STRONGER STATE.

WE HAVE A WHOLE OTHER KEY FOR IT.

Like are you actually serious right now? You can't be serious with this.

And again, this is useless to the topic at hand, that the calc doesn't utilize everything you're talking about.

Come the **** on.

Damage: Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger than his non stretched attacks
Damage: Luffy's non stretched attack couldn't do this, but his golden stretched attack did this.

All you did was enforce that Luffy's stretched attacks are stronger, not that the rifle is stronger.

And again.
Read the thread, that you were in.
You had this same argument, and we debunked it.


The total of like 10 messages in this thread debunks the entire premise of your OP.

Your OP utilizes shit we weren't worried about.

The calculation calculates Luffy yanking the ball.

All that other shit, momentum, rotational KE, weight and force, are bullshit.

We aren't talking about powerscaling Luffy's regular attacks to his ball's energy.
We are talking about the energy Luffy outputted by yanking that ball.

That's my two sense.
And don't start tackling my anger instead of my points like you and everyone else always do in downgrade threads. Tackle my points only and my points alone.

If this is what happens when me and Char are separated from the verse, a downgrade completely undermining everything Charmander and I fought months for and ignoring a 5 page thread with 70% of it is full of arguments we counteracted, then I'm ashamed of the state of the verse's scalers, especially when you have an army of yes men who can't read past the first page of One Piece to actually analyze the faults in this argument.

The entire OP was useless in the grand scheme of things and in the grand scheme of the calc.

So yeah. That's my argument

Nicely put. I also disagree with the OP.

 

[Deceived3596]

Arc's waiting for me to read it to her because my voice is deep, sensual and makes her toes curl.

I read Arc the entire post, she almost didn't make it if you catch my drift.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I read Arc the entire post, she almost didn't make it if you catch my drift.

Istg if another staff DMs me asking if I'm okay because of you...

 

[Eseseso]

Good luck brother

Same to you, my friend.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

My TLDR thoughts on KT's argument; I disagree with the points regarding the weight and the F-V curve (I'll explain why tomorrow), but if we allow AP to be obtained from stuff like clean and jerks, snatches, etc., and if this falls under that category, then it being scale-able as such would be okay by vsbw standards.

I don't have much comment on the scaling portion, I'm not that knowledgeable in comparison to KT, so I'll let Damage talk about those.

 

[Kachon123]

how is it a TLDR when there is nothing to read in the first place

 

[Deceived3596]

-

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

how is it a TLDR when there is nothing to read in the first place

Deceived FRA

 

[DaMonkeMan]

This is why I miss my lieutenant Char, cause he'd be able to say all of this stuff I'm about to say in a conciser and nicer manner, cause this just actually pissed me off.
You ignored the entirety of the pre timeskip thread. Like actually. The entire original post here was useless. Like not one thing countered the usage of the golden ball.

What happened to Charmander?
Edit: Holy shit. RIP to the King.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll try to respond to all of the arguments later today.

I know you said 'Don't focus on you being angry' here, but I'll just leave one comment addressing that and that there is no point in getting angry over this. I've been frustrated in the past over differences in opinions with other users and no matter how strongly we feel over the series or the wiki, it's just not worth getting angry over.

Anyway, will respond today but likely not soon. Just woke up.

 

[SnookB]

"The calculation calcs Luffy yanking the ball" is all I needed to see

 

[Eseseso]

What happened to Charmander?
Edit: Holy shit. RIP to the King.

I mean, he was often too blunt and aggressive and got on people's nerves, but he did make good calcs.