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One Piece - Water 7 Arc Luffy & Usopp Revision

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Damage3245 said:
I'll try to respond to all of the arguments later today.

I know you said 'Don't focus on you being angry' here, but I'll just leave one comment addressing that and that there is no point in getting angry over this. I've been frustrated in the past over differences in opinions with other users and no matter how strongly we feel over the series or the wiki, it's just not worth getting angry over.
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My anger isn’t based on the difference of opinion, and that just upset me even more that my issue was shortened to “we disagree and he’s upset”.

When you are the OP of a thread for a topic in a verse that most people aren’t knowledgeable about, it’s the OP’s responsibility to provide as accurate information as possible, and if that isn’t able to be done, then you should at least manage to provide accurate information about the series.

We had a thread on this topic referencing 3/5 of the points, specifically the Luffy vs Usopp part, where we already discussed that Usopp was badly injured prior to the fight, the additional mass weighing him down part, and the additional forces at play with the rifle.

The Luffy vs Usopp part was one of the largest ignoring of context I’ve ever seen, and the fact that the yesmen who say yes whenever they see a paragraph and just blindly agree make it worst.

It’s intimidating to see a bunch of people agree, potentially even removing the interest to comment, which is why I hate when people have long random fra trains based on incorrect evidence that just ignores the series at hand.

Your OP is based on 100% useless arguments. I mean that with the upmost respect, because your OP tackles nothing as to why we use the calculation in the OP.

That “ball on wrist and not on fist” was useless. Your whole argument was a bunch of invalid proofs, false premise, ad nauseum, and ad verbosium.

Literally if I wasn’t here, this would’ve been downgraded in a few days based on “yeah Usopp shouldn’t be scaled to Luffy, idk why he ever did”, “adding mass increases force, not like he wasn’t weighed down and made it harder”, and “I’ve been believing this for a while, thank god someone finally tackled this issue” by a bunch of people who can’t even remember the chapter where these feats happened.
 
@KingTempest I'm not trying to upset you, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to be angry or upset since you're invested in the verse / the current scaling and don't think that there are problems with it.

But while you have your perspective on it, I obviously don't share that perspective so I don't agree with you that the OP is just "100% useless."

Yes, some of this has been discussed before, but that doesn't mean I automatically agree with it. I've always had issues with this scaling for Usopp, and even if I conceded on one or two points in the OP, I am not convinced yet by your post that the current scaling is completely flawless.

I'm sorry that we don't see eye to eye on this obviously, but I can't just give up on it instantly if I think there are genuine issues. Yes, you don't think there's genuine issues here, but I'll try to make a comprehensive response post explaining it further. It'll just take me a while.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
What happened to Charmander?
Edit: Holy shit. RIP to the King.
2VyVsJC.png

Click to expand...

You saying it like he died, he got banned
 
Don't want to get in the way of any fun you guys are having but please keep off-topic posts away from this thread while it is ongoing.
 
Sorry, but I'll be deleting the off-topic comments after my last post above.
 
Eseseso said:
I always had major doubts/suspicions of normal Water 7 Luffy and Usopp scaling to the full Golden Rifle calc for many of the reasons you listed above.

So yeah, I agree with the OP.

I'm not doing another scaling list for all the characters, tho.
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Me too.
 
I guess i'll explain my vote since I've been kinda just goofing around tbh.

I'm basically neutral about this entire topic from the general standpoint given my lack of knowledge of the series and calculation at hand, so arguments about what values which are assumed in the calc or Usopp's scaling are completely out of my range of knowledge. I've read both the OP and KT's post, there's somethings which i believe KT didn't validly respond to such as the Boxing analogy, since he completely misunderstood the analogy's intention, which was to show that slower punches can generate more force comparative to lighter punches because of the increased mass behind said punch. Which would be a comparable analog to Golden Bull and Luffy's basic punches. (For at least what Damage/Arc are claiming)

I also don't agree with KT's response to Damage's/Arc's argument with the Force-Velocity Curve, as it seems like KT believes any increase in mass, which would negatively effect an object's speed will always produce less force compared to the reverse, which isn't true since Kinetic Energy isn't linear in such ways, Which is shown with the Boxing analogy.

The Dumbbell example also isn't a good one since structurally, both aren't comparable to each other and such wouldn't exert force the same way, a much better analogy would be a gauntlet since that's structurally comparable to the Golden Bull. And if someone with said gauntlet was able to lift it up and swing it just like Luffy then yes, they'd produce more force behind their punch compared to without the gauntlet, as the gauntlet grants more mass than it losses speed. Which is what the Force-Velocity Curve explains.

The Manga fighter example actually made me laugh, i'll let Arc handle that since i know she definitely wishes to, as it made her laugh even harder.

Everything else regarding KT's argument are things which i either agree with or i'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on. I'm waiting with bated breath to see both Arc's and Damage's counters towards KT's post, because this is a very interesting topic to talk about, even for someone whose isn't knowledgeable on One Piece or Calculations in general.

Thank you for listening to my ted talk.
 
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KingTempest said:
If you can't lift a boulder, you can't use the boulder to hit somebody, AKA "0 energy" since you can't bring the rock up to use it to hurt someone, and you can't move it at all. But if you're strong enough to lift the boulder with enough force and speed to hurt somebody, then most likely you'd be able to output that energy on your own, especially when that weight is acting as a force fighting against your energy.
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Tbh, this is a huge misconception everyone is missing with Damage's OP.

Hand me a sledgehammer I can't meaningfully wield as a weapon in combat, but then add 200 feet of bungee cord to it, hand me the bungee, and let the snap-back of the cord aid my flinging the hammer forward, and tell me with a straight face I provided all the force that hammer proceeds to redmist another human being with. Not once is Luffy providing all the energy to manipulate the ball and strike with it, he utilizes his elasticity to blatantly amp his striking with gravity-assisted snapbacks.

I'll wait for the CRT giving me building-level physicals with a sledgehammer I can't lift since I 'provided all the force' by your arguments herein, same with Luffy being argued to do so. It's almost as if the feats are not being read correctly, Luffy's Golden Rifle has an absolutely ENORMOUS gravity-assisted windup. There's no reason to disagree with Damage's OP unless you just saw 'big wall of text' and went FRA.

Damage is saying 'we can't scale the Golden Rifle to Usopp'; this seems self-evident and nothing KT brings to the table actually meaningfully engages and rebuts this. Luffy never put forth all the energy on his own, look at the scans and use your eyes for yourselves, don't brainlessly FRA. He had a gravity-assisted bungee effect which Damage explicitly covers and is the reason he calls the added weight into question.
 
Y'all acting like Golden Rifle is the only attack when Golden Peony literally proves Luffy needs to no gravity assistance or rifle's wind-up to start swinging that ball in circles fast enough to create after-images.
And gravity assistance barely did a thing. Luffy didn't let his arm snap from down to up. You literally see the arm STRAIGHTEN again as he waits for it mid-air to catch up behind him before he snaps it from behind his back and forward.
The anime even backs it up showing the arm held out horizentally and not still chasing after Luffy from below. Episode of Skypiea shows the same interpertation

There's not a single interpertation where Luffy's arm snaps by itself during that attack, he waits until it's behind him, talks shit, then swings forward by his own choice.
 
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SnookB said:
There's not a single interpertation where Luffy's arm snaps by itself during that attack, he waits until it's behind him, talks shit, then swings forward by his own choice.
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Nobody is saying that the attack is elasticity only or that the golden ball snaps back by itself; but it does play a component in it. Otherwise Luffy's arms stretching back would never amplify his strikes and having this on the profile would make no sense:

 
Damage3245 said:
Nobody is saying that the attack is elasticity only or that the golden ball snaps back by itself; but it does play a component in it. Otherwise Luffy's arms stretching back would never amplify his strikes and having this on the profile would make no sense:

Click to expand...
.... Okay, so Luffy's own body doing that allows for the force to begin with.
The calc doesn't even account for the twisting from golden rifle, just the backwards and forwards motion of the attack generating the force required to swing the weight fast enough.
 
Eseseso said:
Ngl someone should look at how much the twisting and other ignored factors boost the calc
Click to expand...
That's the issue. This calc is nerfed in the first place because it accounts for literally nothing except "he carried a massive weight and swing it with (insert value) amount of force)"
The stretching and twisting add a lot to it. Everyone's ignoring the fact that the calc isn't the ball's AP, it's the amount of force required for Luffy to make it swing at that speed at all.
 
SnookB said:
The calc doesn't even account for the twisting from golden rifle, just the backwards and forwards motion of the attack generating the force required to swing the weight fast enough.
Click to expand...
The twisting of it isn't in the OP of this thread, is it?
 
Damage3245 said:
The twisting of it isn't in the OP of this thread, is it?
Click to expand...
Doesn't matter.
The OP still misses the purpose of the calc entirely. The ball wouldn't move at that speed if it weren't for Luffy's own body generating that force.


Now that I rechecked the chapter, Luffy's wind-up attacks also never stretch forward a fraction as much as golden rifle did either. That attack went dozens of meters infront of him and then some, Luffy's attacks never go that far, which shows that he actively send that ball flying further using his own strength.
 
SnookB said:
Doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Eh? You brought it up as a counter-point, but the twisting of it isn't even relevant to the thread. So I don't know why you mentioned it.

The OP still misses the purpose of the calc entirely. The ball wouldn't move at that speed if it weren't for Luffy's own body generating that force.
Click to expand...

How the force is generated is still pretty relevant.

Will elaborate on this in my extended response to KT.
 
Damage3245 said:
Eh? You brought it up as a counter-point, but the twisting of it isn't even relevant to the thread. So I don't know why you mentioned it.
Click to expand...
I didn't bring it up as a COUNTER POINT. I brought it up to clear the fact that the calc doesn't even include Luffy's actual attack mechanics outside of "he threw big ball forward with a certain amount of physical force".
Damage3245 said:
How the force is generated is still pretty relevant.
Click to expand...
How the force is generated is the entire reason the calc exists the first place. But take your time if it's being saved up for a bigger post.
 
SnookB said:
What assistance is there? Nami just caught him while he was falling. He landed on it solidly then jumped off by himself, he didn't hang off it, stretch all the way down then snapped up for there to be any "bungee" physics.
Click to expand...
What? I have zero clue how anyone is liking your comments, read the chapter before commenting again please: https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0297-008.png

Nami literally is zooming directly upward on a bike that can easily overcome the ball's weight, he then leaps off the bike upward which means he has the bike's forward momentum added to his own, which means he has that much inertia going into the Golden Peony maneuver. Your every contribution thus far has been filled with falsehoods or very egregious interpretations of what occurs distinctly on-panel, not even 3 pages apart. If you have to resort to falsehoods to disprove my arguments made just from scans alone, I would ask you cease contributing to the thread.

Also: "while he was falling". Soooo which of the four fundamental forces of the universe would be acting upon a person who is falling, and stretch that person's arm out, hmmmm.
 
Xulrev said:
What? I have zero clue how anyone is liking your comments
Click to expand...
does it matter? I like comments I disagree with on a regular basis.
Xulrev said:
Nami literally is zooming directly upward on a bike that can easily overcome the ball's weight, he then leaps off the bike upward which means he has the bike's forward momentum added to his own, which means he has that much inertia going into the Golden Peony maneuver. Your every contribution thus far has been filled with falsehoods or very egregious interpretations of what occurs distinctly on-panel, not even 3 pages apart. If you have to resort to falsehoods to disprove my arguments made just from scans alone, I would ask you cease contributing to the thread.

Also: "while he was falling". Soooo which of the four fundamental forces of the universe would be acting upon a person who is falling, and stretch that person's arm out, hmmmm.
Click to expand...
Yes. Again. You're acting as if Luffy hung on with his arm, let Nami drive then shot off like a rubber band frm the bike.
When the reality of it is he let the bike get close enough then jumped DIRECTLY UPWARDS while the bike was going forward. If he used his rubber properties to do a rocket-like move and snap off that's when outside influence momentum matters. The dude DID A BASIC ASS JUMP and still carried the ball just fine.
And the ball itself didn't swing down then swing up, Luffy again- had to carry it along with his arm hanging closely behind, jumped (while the ball stayed at an even distance) then started swinging. He didn't let his arm stretch all the way down to where the bike was or where he initially fell then let it snap back.
Xulrev said:
If you have to resort to falsehoods to disprove my arguments made just from scans alone, I would ask you cease contributing to the thread.
Click to expand...
What falsehoods? It's two different interpertations of the same event.
The anime even has him drag the ball up along with him while jumping off the bike, which by the way he made tumble off entirely because of HIS OWN MOMENTUM
I'll stop contributing when I want to. Don't tell me what to do.
 
@SnookB

It's unfortunate you're just missing the point entirely.

Imagine you're on a car

The car is moving forward

You leap forward off the car

You have the car's momentum added to your own

So again: how is Luffy using solely his own strength to manipulate the ball for Golden Peony.

The fact is, Luffy's arm was stretched out at all. That means it has the elastic properties utilized, in addition to excess forward momentum. This means he has additional force aiding him when performing the maneuver.

This is so basic it's absurd I am having to explain it a third time now
 
If the car hit something then sent me flying without me wanting it, that's when the momentum of the car itself comes into account.
We're talking you willingly jumping from it so hard that you force it to literally STOP from your own pressure taking off vs you getting sent flying out of it from excess speed
 
SnookB said:
If I leap off a car hard enough to make the cry FLY BACKWARDS, the car's momentum literally doesn't matter anymore.
Click to expand...
By laws of physics, it still does. If it's in forward motion and you leap off it, you have its added momentum. This is literally misinformed physics, full stop, you are wrong.
 
Guys. please don't make me keep deleting off-topic posts.
 
Xulrev said:
By laws of physics, it still does. If it's in forward motion and you leap off it, you have its added momentum. This is literally misinformed physics, full stop, you are wrong.
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That's the thing. WHAT added momentum if my own momentum from moving off it makes its own momentum null and void and creates an entirely opposing force while at it?
 
SnookB said:
That's the thing. WHAT added momentum if my own mometun from moving off it makes its own momentum null and void and creates an entirely opposing force while at it?
Click to expand...
I do not know how to engage something fundamentally inapplicable. The flying bike being forced in any other direction does not negate the upward momentum it generated to catch a several hundred ton ball of gold with Luffy attached such that it entirely halted his downward momentum, and dragged him upward into the sky; the total energy of the system still moves forward with Luffy as he exits the system.

Your interpretation would simply delete energy from existence. This cannot occur.
 
Xulrev said:
I do not know how to engage something fundamentally inapplicable. The flying bike being forced in any other direction does not negate the upward momentum it generated to catch a several hundred ton ball of gold with Luffy attached such that it entirely halted his downward momentum, and dragged him upward into the sky; the total energy of the system still moves forward with Luffy as he exits the system.

Your interpretation would simply delete energy from existence. This cannot occur.
Click to expand...
This is ignoring the fact that Luffy himself is also carrying that ball, by the way. The bike would've went straight down if Luffy just ALLOWED the ball to pull his arm back because it would weigh it down.
Luffy jumped off that bike and his jump created enough pressure to force the bike to go straight down.

And the bike isn't even going in a straight arrow upwards for the momentum to matter. Luffy jumps STRAIGHT UP, the bike was going FORWARD. That is not how added momentum works.
 
SnookB said:
The bike would've went straight down if Luffy just ALLOWED the ball to pull his arm back because it would weigh it down.
Click to expand...
See, you really don't get physics at all, so that's why I asked you to not derail.

Luffy is literally letting the ball dangle behind him off the back of the bike, therefore the bike is lifting the ball into the sky with its forward momentum. By your interpretation, Luffy is somehow levitating the ball and not letting the bike's pull factor in.....somehow.....magically? Does he have Shiki's fruit suddenly?

You just fundamentally are not comprehending physics and Newton's laws, for a fact, and it is mind blowing that you're trying to refute me. Luffy being on the bike makes it a fully enclosed system, such that the bike is fully lifting Luffy AND the ball, since the ball is attached to him: if he was somehow 'lifting' it outside the system, he would be defying Newton's laws.

The bike caught Luffy falling, meaning it can account for the ball. This means his forward momentum is aided by a mechanical force that can EASILY output enough lift to overcome a massively accelerating hundreds of tons sphere of gold, negating any input Luffy himself has into the Golden Peony maneuver.
 
@SnookB

Let me ask this another way: If I am sitting in a jumbo jet, and I have a solid piece of rope somehow dangling outside the jet and attached to that rope is a 10,000 ton gigantic iron weight, your argument would be the same as saying "The jet isn't actually lifting the weight because Xulrev is holding the rope", so how am I holding the rope in the middle of the air inside the jet if the jet isn't lifting the weight?
 
Xulrev said:
@SnookB

Let me ask this another way: If I am sitting in a jumbo jet, and I have a solid piece of rope somehow dangling outside the jet and attached to that rope is a 10,000 ton gigantic iron weight, your argument would be the same as saying "The jet isn't actually lifting the weight because Xulrev is holding the rope", so how am I holding the rope in the middle of the air inside the jet if the jet isn't lifting the weight?
Click to expand...
And just to further this point: any movement I make on the rope? Has the jet's momentum already factored into that motion. Same as Luffy. Hopefully you get it now
 
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