One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #7

[Ugarik]

That's the reason why I hate RWBY scaling

 

[Dziga]

If Low 7-C scales to his AP then it would end up scaling to his Dura and Striking Strength, since Luffy can match and tank some his attacks, and Croc can tank multiple attacks from Luffy and also harm him with his Hook, which scales to SS.

 

[Damage3245]

But isn't this similar to weather feats, character who does an impressive one has their AP, striking strengths and durability scales to the result of that calc. A similar instance is that of RWBY Maidens.

Crocodile has been shown to be able to summon powerful sandstorm on whims.

Being able to do it on a whim doesn't mean he could tank being hit with the full force of a sandstorm.

Getting durability from striking strength makes sense; because you have to withstand the force of your own punches or you'd damage yourself.

But getting durability from making a storm? It doesn't seem like the same case to me.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

Shouldn't Crocodile be as strong as his sandstorm techniques?

 

[Damage3245]

Shouldn't Crocodile be as strong as his sandstorm techniques?

Physically? I'm not so sure about that.

The strength of Devil Fruit powers don't seem to be connected to the user's physical strength in most cases.

 

[Ugarik]

Shouldn't Crocodile be as strong as his sandstorm techniques?

Why would it? Storm isn't even combat applicable

 

[The_Calaca]

The storm is combat applicable. He used in his debut when he showed himself as the hero of the island at the moment of stopping a bunch of fodders.

Plus, Crocodile is generating the force with his powers. The attack comes from him and it works the same as punching. It's like saying Goku doesn't scale to his ki blasts because he's not punching.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree about Calaca Vs 's points toward the storm.

 

[Damage3245]

Just because the sandstorm is caused by him doesn't mean his body is tanking the force that moves the sand.

 

[The_Calaca]

Newton Third Law applies not only to punching. Generating a sandstorm or increasing the heat in the enviroment requires said amount of energy to get the effect, and since the Logia are basically extending their bodies in the form of the element then it's almost as punching for them.

We get more confirmation on this part when Smoker fought Vergo. The former was generating smoke around Vergo to get Law's heart, but Vergo said that this will only give him more spots to attack since behind the smoke there was Smoker even if the form isn't properly human. It's like Body Control or Elasticity, but not really.

 

[Ercosore]

I agree with the Low 7-C upgrade.

 

[The_Calaca]

For the record, the Low 7-C might be somewhat controvertial, so we could compromise on adding a Likely Low 7-C to the characters who should scale.

 

[KobsterHope07]

So a '8-A, likely Low 7-C' rating right?

 

[Damage3245]

I still disagree with using this to say he has Low 7-C durability; when Enel converts his arm to lightning to create an El Thor he isn't tanking the lightning because he is lightning himself and we've established that Logia have resistance to their own elements.

I don't see any evidence from the manga that Newton's Third Law applies to creating the sandstorm.

There's also the matter of Crocodile being completely overpowered and defeated by an 8-A+ attack.

On a side note regarding Luffy's durability, I reread all three fights between him and Crocodile and Crocodile only directly hit Luffy with a sand-based attack once and it was the 8-A Desert Sparda which gives Luffy his 8-A rating. I don't think that Luffy (or anyone else scaling from him in that arc) is due to be upgraded.

 

[The_Calaca]

Just because they are resistant that doesn't mean he shouldn't scale. He's creating the sandstorm himself and he uses in combat. Dismissing this feat is dismissing every other logia feat and oh surprise, we do consider the logia feats legit.

I've posted the evidence.

Luffy destroying Arlong Park is at best 4 Tons while Arlong scales above 8.5 Tons. So what? AoE doesn't mean a thing to debunk the scaling. Plus the 650Tons came from Crocodile going through the rock thanks to Luffy's power. It's an after-effect just like the collapsing platform in Dressrosa with the KKG.

Luffy punched through the Desert Spada with no harm. I'm pretty sure that's a Durability feat. He defeated Crocodile, and while you don't think he should scale to the sandstorm, the evidence says something different and he should scale to Low 7-C for harming him.

At least 8-A, Likely Low 7-C is still an option.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't know how all series do it, or what the site standards are regarding this specifically - but Storm from the X-Men whose whole ability concerns the creation of storms has a Moon-level feat for creating a storm, yet only has Small Building level durability.

Elsa has the ability to freeze over an entire kingdom and create blizzards giving her Island level AP - yet her durability is only Building level.

The sandstorm may apply to Crocodile's AP; but not to his striking strength or durability from what I can tell.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Storm feats in general should be taken with consideration, given that they aren't normal attacks. One might need a certain amount of energy to produce a storm/sandstorm, but it doesn't necessarily scale to AP or Durability. I'm with Damage on this one

 

[The_Calaca]

Storm can't divide his body and turn that part into a storm like a Logia. Same with Elsa. There's the difference. Crocodile is extending his body and forming a sandstorm.

 

[Stefano4444]

I don't know how all series do it, or what the site standards are regarding this specifically - but Storm from the X-Men whose whole ability concerns the creation of storms has a Moon-level feat for creating a storm, yet only has Small Building level durability.

But the difference here is that Storm's more direct attacks aren't powered up by the same ability, her weather manipulation do not maker her physically more powerful.

On the other hand, Crocodile's direct attacks (like the Pesado or the Desert Sparda) are created thought the same devil fruit power that allow him to generate sandstorms.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Environmental_Destruction

• Dungeons and Dragons' Storm Feats: These feats share an energy source and relative potency to other magical abilities, merely spreading that potency over a wider range.
• Anima: Beyond Fantasy's Storm Feats: Shares the same reasoning as D&D, it is merely a wide range storm that uses the same exact potency as other spells in the verse, merely used over a wider area to achieve less deadly and more environmental effects.

 

[Damage3245]

By the way, I've been speaking with Ugarik about the calc and the more correct density of the sandstorm should be 1.22509 kg/m^3. (based on this document, and taking the density of air into account).

This would make the result of the calc either High 8-C+ or 8-B depending on which end is accepted.

 

[Stefano4444]

Only 1.22509 km/m^3? That is way lower than any other results i have found online.

https://www.researchgate.net/post/How_we_can_determine_the_dry_sand_density

https://structx.com/Soil_Properties_002.html

Most of them put the density is always put at more than 1000 km/m^3.

Unless the density of air is what make the sand much less dense than normal.

 

[Ugarik]

Well if those storms are actually solid moving sand walls and the scientists how were measuring amount of sand particles in desert air during sandstorms are liars than I suppose 1442 kg/m**3 makes sence

 

[The_Calaca]

We need a solid number in a blog to be evaluated first.

 

[Ugarik]

Can anyone explain me from were 90% hollowness comes from?

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano, isn't that the density for masses of sand, not the sand in a sandstorm? A pile of sand is going to be a lot more dense than a cloud of sand.

 

[Stefano4444]

@Stefano, isn't that the density for masses of sand, not the sand in a sandstorm? A pile of sand is going to be a lot more dense than a cloud of sand.

This is where the 90% hollowness come from.

As it was stated in a previous thread that sandstorms are 90% hollow while the remaining 10% its the sand itself.

 

[Damage3245]

Where does the 90% figure come from? Because that doesn't sound right.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

So, Luffy's gonna be 6-C then

 

[Damage3245]

So, Luffy's gonna be 6-C the

Possibly, possibly not.

Right now we're trying to determine the best way to calculate the Birdcage's feat. However there are also reasons for why this may not impact the current scaling.

 

[Dziga]

I miss 6-B Luffy.

 

[Damage3245]

I miss 6-B Luffy.

Can't tell if that's sarcasm, haha.

My proposal - if we decide that we can't scale the Birdcage to the characters - is to make Doflamingo either 7-A or 7-A+ (depending on the result of the Aokiji calc).

Gear 4 Luffy would be At least 7-A (or 7-A+), and we would scale the Big Mom commanders from that going forwards.

 

[The_Calaca]

I assume you didn't forgot about Zunisha's trunk swing. Or are you going to bring another old settled discussion to enlarge the thread once more arguing that we shouldn't because Kaido and stuff?

 

[Damage3245]

Well, right now Jack is the only who directly scales to Zunisha's trunk swing and he gets Possibly 6-C from it.

I don't like the insinuation that all I do is drag up old discussions. It feels a bit like an Ad Hominem but I assume that is not supposed to be the case.

 

[KobsterHope07]

Don't we have a Ace Calc that put the Yonkou Commanders at a High 7-A.

And what going on with the Crocodile sandstorm.

 

[The_Calaca]

It's not. Sorry if it sounded like that.

Jack is the one who has a good behavious in front of the other Kaido Commanders, on top of having Kaido above the three of them so he's not the only one who'd be 6-C. Plus the meteor discussion while not finished because OP doesn't get the same attention as Naruto or Bleach, has more agreement than disagreement.

Let's not forget that if we lack a good way to calc the Birdcage we will use the 24% as a compromise as it was accorded before.

 

[Damage3245]

@Kobster; the Ace calc isn't suitable for use. The discussion on the sandstorm fizzled out but the calc appears to be flawed.

@Calaca; I didn't mean Jack was the only one who scaled, just that he scales directly and others are indirectly scaled to it.

The compromise may work for calcing it, but then there's further discussion on its applicability to scaling.

 

[KobsterHope07]

@Kobster; The discussion on the sandstorm fizzled out but the calc appears to be flawed.

.......sigh. I shouldn't be surprised at this point. Only you could find a flaw in a reasonable calculation. Sigh

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Kobster; The discussion on the sandstorm fizzled out but the calc appears to be flawed.

.......sigh. I shouldn't be surprised at this point. Only you could find a flaw in a reasonable calculation. Sigh

This sort of comment doesn't help anyone. Please try and be respectful especially when you disagree.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I still find it absolutely ridiculous that some people believe that Jack is the strongest out of all the Yonko Commanders, they should all be comparable to each other, at least for the first mates. It asinine to assume that soley because they haven't interacted with each other that the Calamities are the strongest. If they were then Kaido wouldn't have any issues going into a full blown war with the other Yonko and the other Yonko Commanders. In no way is Jack the strongest Yonko Commander, Nekomushi and the other Mink were able to both fight Jack even in his Zoan Form, ergo the other Yonko Commanders should be comparable to them and Jack unless you wanna argue that the Minks are stronger than the Whitebeard Commanders or the Sweet Commanders.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I feel like the scaling of Fujitora, the Yonkos, and the Yonko Commanders have been in Scaling Limbo forever