One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #7

[Stefano4444]

A more accurate estimate for Fujitora should be like this:

Fujitora: High 7-A himself, likely higher, 6-C with meteors

 

[Damage3245]

As Cin mentioned earlier I believe Fujitora was breathing pretty heavily as a result of just fighting Gear 2/3 Luffy, and he was hurt by a Gear 3 attack.

You need evidence to support this statement: "having him below Doflamingo with Awakening doesn't make sense when he should be at very least as strong as him", rather than just stating it.

There is no reason at all to put him at High 7-A, likely higher.

 

[Stefano4444]

You need evidence to support this statement: "having him below Doflamingo with Awakening doesn't make sense when he should be at very least as strong as him", rather than just stating it.

There is a reason why the WG decided to to send Fujitora, if he was that much weaker than Doffy then the marines would have send someone else.

As Cin mentioned earlier I believe Fujitora was breathing pretty heavily as a result of just fighting Gear 2/3 Luffy, and he was hurt by a Gear 3 attack.

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Fujitora didn't see to be that tired during his fight with Luffy.

 

[Damage3245]

> There is a reason why the WG decided to to send Fujitora, if he was that much weaker than Doffy then the marines would have send someone else.

You say that like the characters in One Piece have access to our VS Battles profiles and know exactly how strong everyone is in the verse.

Considering that Doffy is At least 7-A+ by himself by this new rating, and Fujitora is also At least 7-A+, there is clearly not a huge AP gap.

 

[KobsterHope07]

If I recall correctly, Fujitora wasn't really breathing heavy as a result of fighting G2/G3 Luffy. He only became tired when he uses his Ferocious Tiger and he was pretty mad and enraged at Luffy for taking what he assumed was pity due to his blindness.

Also, I want to ask, is there a reason why the ME for the Torso Regenerationn for Pica isn't being used.

 

[Damage3245]

@Kobster; the Low End value is safer to use and consistent with all of his other feats / calcs.

 

[CinCameron20]

Regarding Cracker, he still hurt him, he made him bleed, granted it wasn´t much but its still something.

Regarding Doffy, no offence but I think you are reaching with this one, here you can see where the strings come from, and here you can see that the same place the strings come from manage to hit Luffy. It would literraly made no sence for those string to not have made contact with Lufy.

Cracker was using Haki, and we tend not to include it in character ratings with the sole exception of Gear 4th Luffy due to him having to consistently use the ability while in Gear 4th in general. Also, Luffy's elasticity was made out from very early on to be ineffective against slashing attacks, so he could not bounce off Cracker's sword like he could with punches and kicks anywhere near as easily. Cracker used Haki and clearly tried pretty hard to deal what little damage he did. Busoshoku has a form of Statistics Amplification as seen on the Haki page and we've already discussed that the usage of Haki should not apply to AP/Durability.

• And before you say anything in regards to Doffy using Haki to block hits from Gear 4th Luffy, he actually took two (on-panel) without and got right back up while already wounded previously.

Regarding Doflamingo Athlito, it's ridiculous actually. The first instance, we see this happe. The foot is the only thing to come into contact with Luffy, so I assumed the threads were a means to increase Doflamingo's kicking power as we've seen him use a form of telekinesis to move the threads, so I believed he used the ability to accelerate his kick. We don't even get an answer of whether or not the threads even come into contact with Luffy, just that he got sent flying after taking further damage and bleeding.

Now, using the scans you posted The same thing happens here. The foot lands in Luffy's ribs, and the only thing we see making contact with Luffy is the foot. Considering the tip of the toes are digging into the ribs, it is incredibly unlikely for the threads to even be touching Luffy, and the threads come from the under part of Doflamingo's shoe, it is not possible for the threads to be making any form of contact with Luffy's body. It was simply an enhanced kick unless information on the attack from a reliable source suggests otherwise.

• If Oda intended to have it be a similar attack to Goshikito like I previously thought, then the way he drew it is incredibly strange as the threads are never seen making contact with anything. It's likely an AP booster if anything.

@Stefano - No. Gear 3rd Luffy pressured Fujitora quite heavily and we even see Fujitora receiving bruises on two occasions. He is later exhausted, sweating, and heaving. Clearly not an easy fight for him. He is staying "7-A+". Not at least, not likely higher.

@Damage - Overall, I do still have to argue for Doflamingo's AP scaling to some degree, as we literally only see him throw one attack that Luffy resists by default due to being a rubber man. Doflamingo even points out that "He is still rubbery despite being armored?" clearly not expecting his kick to bounce right off, especially whilst using Haki. He expresses genuine surprise at the fact that Luffy has the ability to meld both the abilities of Busoshoku and the Gomu Gomu no Mi.

• While this clearly doesn't imply Doflamingo capable of actually hurting Luffy with a kick, and he'd clearly need Haki to do so, I do think there needs to be slight changes to his rating.

TL;DR

Cracker: 7-A+ Biscuit Soldiers (Above Gear 3rd Luffy), At least 7-A+ himself (Above his Biscuit Soldiers and able to cut into Luffy's arm, albeit only with Haki and great effort)

Fujitora: 7-A+ (His KE feat), 6-C with meteorites

Doflamingo: At least 7-A with Black Knight (Overpowered Luffy and was only defeated by Gear 2nd Luffy with great effort), At least 7-A+, likely higher himself (Far surpasses Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy, casually one-shotting Luffy on two occasions, and still dominating him in a fight while injured by Gamma Knife - That alone should give him justification for a "higher" since he's basically half-dead and still trashing Luffy with minimal effort despite Luffy taking hits from Fujitora no problem. Let's not forget he also toyed with Jozu--despite some arguing the relevance of this for some reason), High 7-A with Awakening (Had blocked hits from Bound Man Luffy, forced him to rely on evasion and kept him at bay for over 20 minutes)

Katakuri: At least 7-A+, likely higher (Displayed as being far superior to Gear 3rd Luffy. Stated to be the strongest Sweet Commander, making him stronger than Cracker, and was capable of matching SnakeMan Luffy blow for blow), High 7-A with Awakening (Stalemated Bound Man Luffy until his transformation wore off)

 

[Damage3245]

@Cin; those ratings look good to me, though Katakuri should also have High 7-A durability for the same reason that Doffy will.

 

[CinCameron20]

Well, that only applied to AP. Dura would still be Likely High 7-A. Thing is people will argue for High 7-A Snakeman despite both Luffy and Katakuri's injuries at this point, so obviously Katakuri would be a little more... "tender" by the end of their fight.

And Luffy still relied on a more powerful attack to finish him off, probably High 7-A with King Cobra.

 

[Damage3245]

Durability should probably be definitely High 7-A if Doffy's is. Katakuri actually managed to stand back up after taking the King Cobra, despite the damage he had taken previously.

And he fared better against Boundman's strikes than Doffy did initally (though yes, Doffy was injured).

 

[CinCameron20]

I agree with Katakuri being High 7-A in Dura. Just saying that Snakeman wouldn't fully scale since Katakuri was still tanking the hits while injured, and it took a stronger attack from Luffy to finish him off. Luffy needed a great boost in speed to beat Katakuri's Pre-cog, and Bound Man was simply not cut out for it. Also, "fared better" isn't exactly a good reason. Katakuri at that point only took one kick to the jaw. Doflamingo had been impaled (twice), electrocuted, had two different explosions erupt in his body, got pummeled by a blood-lusted Luffy after his previous injuries, and THEN fought Bound Man.

Katakuri. One kick to the jaw he just shrugged off. He was still equally powerless against Bound Man as Doflamingo was in terms of physical ability and while he didn't fall on his back, that was merely because of his pride. He was still getting wrecked until, like Doflamingo, he resorted to his Awakening.

 

[KobsterHope07]

@Kobster; the Low End value is safer to use and consistent with all of his other feats / calcs.

The Mid-End for both calcs was deem acceptable to the Calc member and is within the range of Mountain level, so it is still consistent with the rest of his feats.

 

[CinCameron20]

There is a reason why the WG decided to to send Fujitora, if he was that much weaker than Doffy then the marines would have send someone else.

Fujitora didn't see to be that tired during his fight with Luffy.

1) Doflamingo is a Royal Shichibukai, and while Fujitora is an Admiral, both are held in equal regard in terms of the trinity of powers. They don't exactly have many people who would be capable of going to deal with someone as powerful as Doflamingo in the first place. The 3 current Admirals are the strongest force that can be sent out for missions freely. Akainu, as the fleet admiral, must remain at Headquarters to supervise literally everything going on with the Navy.

• There's literally nothing to imply Fujitora would defeat Doflamingo in a fight from Dressrosa, especially with Fujitora being barely useful against the Bird-Cage, and ultimately deciding to leave the fate of Dressrosa in Luffy's hands. And besides, Fujitora had 2 Vice-Admirals and a force of marines that would have been annihilated by the Donquixote Family. Doflamingo was also very confident he could kill Fujitora, despite seeing him in action, albeit with some difficulty. He only let Fujitora run around because Fujitora was intended to capture the Strawhats.

2) Bruh. Don't straight up lie about Fujitora not being tired or pressed. He blocked the punch, was sent flying anyways, and had a small bruise on his cheek, then we see him going toe-to-toe with Gear 2nd, while his face has another visible bruise or cut, and finally he is seen panting and sweating profusely after landing his Ferocious Tiger on Luffy.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

The Mid-End for both calcs was deem acceptable to the Calc member and is within the range of Mountain level, so it is still consistent with the rest of his feats.

....that is true. The 800MT is just as viable according to Spinosarus

 

[Damage3245]

@PlumCrayfish, it may be just as viable but even Spino said that the low end is safer to use.

And all of Pica's other feats are about at the level of the low end result.

 

[KobsterHope07]

I understand that if we have this one character with many consistent feats of a particular tier like 7-A, then they have this only calc at high end 6-C, I would see how some might argue for using the more consistent rating.

This isn't the case. The result is still in ballpark of 7-A. If we have no reason to dispute a viable calculation, I don't see why not use it imho

 

[CinCameron20]

I don't care for "consistency". That's not a reliable argument. If we're discussing consistency, then that would mean we should use the PE of Fujitora's feat simply because his later feat generated less energy. We don't do that unless there's actually a case of an outlier (Which would only be a thing if Pica did a bunch of 7-A feats, then performed something like High 6-C+ out of no where while someone stronger inverse had not even performed anything comparable).

If the mid end is accepted by the calc group, we will use it. So 838 Megatons. The only change here is that everyone who scaled to "7-A" or "At least 7-A" would simply be "7-A+". Gear 3rd Luffy would be "At least 7-A+", and that would also translate to Fujitora for matching him.

Katakuri and Doflamingo would be > characters who are > 838MT, and shouldn't be vastly weaker to Boundman (Now >2.5GT aka High 7-A+), so I think it would be viable to have both of them be "At least 7-A+, likely High 7-A himself" '+' or not can be discussed.

• After-all, Doffy one-shot Sanji, Smoker, and Luffy (twice), and all of them have durability scaling to the 838MT, or in Luffy's case, somewhat higher. So for them to be Likely High 7-A is not unreasonable, considering they could take hits from Bound Man Luffy--granted Katakuri never threw a base attack at him, and Doflamingo threw a blunt attack that straight up bounced off cuz elasticity before both used Awakening.

So, Luffy (ignoring Base cuz it wont change): At least 7-A+ with Gear 2nd and 3rd (Stronger than Pica, should be comparable to Zoro), High 7-A+ with Gear 4th Bound Man (Noted by Doflamingo to be 3x stronger than before, and overpowered him and Katakuri in a physical contest despite being ineffective with Gear 3rd attacks in both cases), At least 7-A+, likely High 7-A(+?) with Gear 4th Snake-Man (Stronger than Gear 3rd. Matched Katakuri blow-for-blow, but required his strongest attack to ultimately defeat him).

Sanji, Zoro, Pica, Vergo, Diamante, Kyros, Black Knight, and others of this area would be: 7-A+ or At least 7-A+ depending who we are looking at.

 

[Damage3245]

If both the Low End and the Mid End are acceptable to use, then that doesn't mean we have to automatically use the highest value.

I'll need to wait until I can get on PC before I can explain but I do actually have reasons for why the lower value should be better for use.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, so the main issue I have with the timeframes for the feat is that we justify the timeframe by comparing the speed of dust that Pica releases to be comparable to the dust released from a building demolition.

Cin mentioned that he examined the dust cloud's expansion in a video he linked and found that it took about 1.33 seconds for the dust to stop expanding and start falling.

While I don't necessarily object to the method used by assuming the dust clouds in the manga are comparable to the dust clouds in this video, my issue is that the sense of scale is clearly different between the two instances.

I'm not able to pixelscale the images right at this moment but considering the size of Pica's enormous stone golem, the dust clouds given off by the arm reforming have to be roughly hundreds of meters in size. Way bigger than the dust clouds linked in the video.

If the speed of expansion is roughly the same, shouldn't the timeframe still be longer for the Pica feat since it is happening at a bigger scale?

If there is a missing element to this that I'm unaware of, I'd like clarification.

 

[Dr.Fix]

Wallof text.

I pretty much agree with this. The scaling makes a lot of sense. However, I think leaving Cracker at just "at least 7-A" while Duffy gets High 7-A is a stretch just because "its a slashing attack".

Duffy's stamina is no joke, from the time he was a kid he could power through pain fuled by vengance. His ability is broke too since he can repair himself, beating the physical limitations and the psychological of his injuries. He's still physically inferior to showings from both Luffy and Cracker.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

So for the entire Dressrosa saga; these are the ratings for the many characters?:

Unknow, likely Low 7-B+: Orlumbus [While he don't have much things to scale from, he shouldn't be any weaker or stronger than the other Colleseum Fighters]

Low 7-B+ (=5.8MT): Nami, Chopper, Usopp, Brook, Monet, Pre-Awakening Sai, Baby Five, Buffalo, Viola, Tashigi, Overdosed Hody Jones, Leo, Ideo, Jora, Franky, Senior Pink, Machivise, Hajrudin, Bellamy, Elizabello w/ Lite King Punch

At least Low 7-B+ (>5.8MT): "Monster" Hody Jones, Delinger, Gladius, Bartolomeo, Cavendish w/o Hakuba, Base Lao G

At least Low 7-B+, likely higher (>>5.8MT): Old Chinjao, Sai (Post-Awakening), Cavendish w/ Hakuba, Lao G with Power Released from Training, Base Luffy

At most Low 7-B+, likely far higher (>>>5.8MT): Prime Chinjao [Should be far stronger than his current Old self and he was able to comptete with Garp in the old days, but not enough reasons to validiate a tier jump imo]

At least Low 7-B+ (>>5.8MT), likely 7-A+ (<=838MT): Robin [She easily hold Hakuba in place and deflecting a strike from Diamante. She was injured after being hit by Diamante's Death Enjambre, which was strong enough to damage Kyros but managed to recover from it. Also she battle against Trebol and block one of his attack]

7-B (=35MT): Elizabello w/ King Punch, Bartolomeo's Barriers

Likely 7-A+ (<=838MT): Pica w/o Stone Golems, Diamante, Kyros, Trebol

7-A+ (=838MT): Pica w/ Stone Golems

At least 7-A+ (>838MT): Roronoa Zoro, Sanji, Vergo, Smoker,Trafalgar Law, Doflamingo's Black Knight, Fujitora, Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy, Sabo, Jesus Burgess

At least 7-A+, likely higher (>>>838MT) or Likely High 7-A (<=1 GT): Only Donquixote Doflamingo [He is above G3 Luffy which scales higher than people who scales above 838MT. He is either very high on the Mountain level scale or he is at Baseline High 7-A]

High 7-A (=2.5GT): Gear 4th Luffy

I just realized how many characters were in this one single saga. Ratings are up for discussions but how does it look.

 

[Dziga]

I think Prime Chinjao can start at At least baseline 7-B since Old Chinjao is already considerably above the Low 7-B+'s.

 

[The_Calaca]

I'm okay with using those ratings.

 

[CinCameron20]

I pretty much agree with this. The scaling makes a lot of sense. However, I think leaving Cracker at just "at least 7-A" while Duffy gets High 7-A is a stretch just because "its a slashing attack".

Duffy's stamina is no joke, from the time he was a kid he could power through pain fuled by vengance. His ability is broke too since he can repair himself, beating the physical limitations and the psychological of his injuries. 'He's still physically inferior to showings from both Luffy and Cracker.

Cracker has shown nothing comparable to Gear 4th. All he accomplished was cutting into Luffy's already outstretched arm with a haki infused 2-handed slash. You don't have to totally be the same tier to inflict damage to someone, and he was never seen being a serious threat to Luffy again (off-panel fight, meh).

• And again, The Gomu Gomu no Mi is weaker against slashing attacks and highly resistant to blunt attacks. A sword slash from someone weaker than Luffy may still deal damage, but Cracker hardly dealt any despite swinging two-handed w/ Haki. He was looking to remove the arm and merely got through the skin and MAYBE some muscle, but Luffy was not bleeding very much, so it is arguably a superficial injury. Doflamingo's kick bounced off because it is a blunt attack and we can all agree that Doflamingo in general is physically inferior to Bound Man, and it's been established that only stronger characters can even hurt Luffy with blunt attacks (Doflamingo injuring Base + Gear 2nd/3rd Luffy with base kicks earlier in their fight).

Doflamingo was also weakened (severely) while Cracker was fresh/100%, better off than even Katakuri was, and Doflamingo still took several attacks without receiving serious damage (except from Leo Bazooka, which obviously would considering all the damage Doflamingo took in the torso area that day). He even managed to block a Kong Gun despite being sent flying. His arms were not shown damaged despite (obviously) being staggered, and he got right back up from Rhino Schneider and Culverin without anything beyond bruises on top of what he already had. Cracker didn't even take one hit in the entire fight before he was out.

The "High 7-A" for Doflamingo (and Katakuri) would only imply they are around baseline to at most somewhat comparable to Bound Man Luffy, literally anywhere between 1GT and <2.5GT (and both have stomped Gear 3rd Luffy, which is > Gear 2nd, which is at least = Zoro, who is > Pica, who performed a 838MT feat, so both of them being High 7-A [at the very least base-line] makes sense if they can each take hits from someone approaching triple the base-line and Doflamingo in particular scales above his own subordinate who performed the feat anyways).

IDK about you, but if a character is one-shotting people >>838MT in Dura scaling, then taking hits from someone ~2.5GT in AP scaling, I think it's justifiable for them to be "At least 7-A+, likely High 7-A"

@Damage - ...

1) Remember how you also brought up how Awakening never implied Doflamingo's attacks or threads to be stronger than before, but from the earlier scaling, you're suddenly all for High 7-A Awakening and leaving Doflamingo himself 7-A+ w/ his Dura still High 7-A? Interesting.

And now this:

2) I already explained the dust build up, also the time-frame would not be longer considering how the dust clouds from Pica's arm are still roughly comparable in size to the clouds from the shown skyscrapers, if not slightly bigger.

• That's not even the point, the point is that we see no rubble falling (except possible rocks from under the arm, but that may also be dust). That's the point, not the size of the dust clouds. The dust cloud size would only matter in this case if they weren't just a dozen or two meters in width, but instead hundreds.

I had to cut off here since there's a problem with the site, so I can't go into my profile and blogs atm. All I see is the giant Fandom logo when I go into my

 

[Damage3245]

Vergo and Sanji should both be Likely 7-A+, not At least.

@Cin, we do see some rubble falling for the torso feat at least. And the dust clouds for both definitely look a lot bigger than the video you linked.

 

[Damage3245]

Hey everyone, I've created a new thread after being told this one was getting too long: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3032991

Please direct the discussion towards there.

I'll update the links for some of the calcs which have been updated soon.