One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #7

[Damage3245]

I feel like too many people are downplaying just how many profiles this would effect; and all based off of one calc. Consistency is a pretty big deal in my opinion, and this would result in inconsistent values.

Hody Jones gets his rating from biting through Luffy's shoulder and causing him to almost bleed out; so he'd be 6-C.

Gladius withstood a Gear 2 kick and kept fighting, so he'd be 6-C.

Bellamy hit Luffy in the guts with an Armament Haki Spring-Enhanced punch and made him cough up blood, so he'd be 6-C.

Caeser Clown was hit by Luffy a few times in base and kept fighting; only being totally defeated when hit by a Gear 3 attack. So he'd be 6-C.

This notion that everyone aside from Doflamingo only gave Luffy 'scratches' is false.

Too many characters would be boosted to 6-C for this.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That's not true in the slightest, Hody would scale to Fishman Island Luffy, which isn't 6-C.

 

[Damage3245]

That's not true in the slightest, Hody would scale to Fishman Island Luffy, which isn't 6-C.

Cin provided the example up above that Jinbe scales to Fishman Island Luffy which would make him 6-C.

The same logic applies to Hody Jones.

 

[The_Calaca]

Go on, ignore Cin's suggestion about Luffy's rating. I don't care at this point. You're just repeating yourself trying to make sense just to downgrade the verse even more.

This is the last time I'm gonna say this.

Stop. trying. to. disprove. feats. using. scaling. that. has. been. debunked. already.

Enough of this. Once DT and Kep reach a conclusion we're going to update the profiles accordingly.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

At this point you proof yourself as downplayer, Damage.

Stop "no offense but", we already know everything you said here.

 

[Damage3245]

At this point you proof yourself as downplayer, Damage.
Stop "no offense but", we already know everything you said here.

I can just as easily say that most people here are wanking the stats.

If you're putting Gear 2 Dressrosa Arc Luffy as Likely 6-C, then people who tank attacks from him in Gear 2 should also be Likely 6-C. Basic powerscaling.

I'm pointing out how ridiculous that would be, as that affects a whole lot of Post-Timeskip profiles.

 

[Elizhaa]

Go on, ignore Cin's suggestion about Luffy's rating. I don't care at this point. You're just repeating yourself trying to make sense just to downgrade the verse even more.
This is the last time I'm gonna say this.

Stop. trying. to. disprove. feats. using. scaling. that. has. been. debunked. already.

Enough of this. Once DT and Kep reach a conclusion we're going to update the profiles accordingly.

I guess that you proposing that Damage3245 is doing the Argumentum ad nauseum, or argument from repetitio Fallacy.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

How ridiculous? People already give many example, proof, etc and yet you just dismissing it.

 

[Damage3245]

To try and break down my explanation a bit further:

• If Gear 2 Luffy is Likely 6-C then Luffy's durability must be Likely 6-C (without Gear 4). Gear 2 doesn't amp his durability after all. (Or just straight up 6-C since he took numerous attacks from Doflamingo who is now going to be 6-C).

• Luffy's first key goes from Fishman Island to Dressrosa, because it was decided he didn't go through any notable increases in strength between the arcs (it took place over a few days in manga time).

• If Luffy in Fishman Island is Likely 6-C, then Hody Jones is Likely 6-C for the scaling reasoning already on his profile.

• Luffy hurt Hody Jones multiple times in base, so his AP in base must be Likely 6-C.

So this talk about keeping Luffy's base AP as At least 7-B doesn't hold up; his base has to be Likely 6-C based on the existing scaling chain.

 

[The_Calaca]

Luffy's durability being scaled to his strongest non-durability amper techniques is something I was going to bring eventually, considering only Haki and G4 amps his durability.

You're saying that Luffy's 7-B doesn't hold up because Hody was able to pierce his skin. Just like fodder can pierce Shirohige's skin just fine. Right. Luffy's body can't no-sell piercing attacks without Haki, and even Luffy said that his Haki wasn't good enough against piercing damage at the time.

 

[Captain_Torch]

I personally don't have an issue with Luffy being 6-C, but rather the characters scaling to the Birdcage.

One of the biggest factors for this revision was the assumption that awakening > birdcage, when not only does it make more sense for birdcage to be stronger(awakening has more strings than his normal attacks, birdcage has faaar more strings than awakening), but even in the series itself Birdcage was shown to be unbreakable.

At this point it seems that people just want OP characters to be higher up, so they're using the birdcage to wank them.

 

[Damage3245]

I suppose a big problem I have with this is backscaling Luffy's weaker Gears to also be 6-C, which depends on where precisely we put Gear 4.

I think Torch has a point that we're basing this too much on assuming Awakening => Birdcage's durability.

And we don't have a method for deciding how much Gear 4 should scale to it; Cin himself said that the Birdcage didn't tank all of the energy.

The 24% ratio method is apparently flawed, but no alternative method was proposed other than 'the Birdcage is vaguely close to the meteor'.

 

[Elizhaa]

I personally don't have an issue with Luffy being 6-C, but rather the characters scaling to the Birdcage.

One of the biggest factors for this revision was the assumption that awakening > birdcage, when not only does it make more sense for birdcage to be stronger(awakening has more strings than his normal attacks, birdcage has faaar more strings than awakening), but even in the series itself Birdcage was shown to be unbreakable.

I am neutral about 6-C point. It debatable to say which as more strings, honestly. I believed that Donquixote Doflamingo refers to Awakening as stronger than ordinary devil fruits powers.

At this point it seems that people just want OP characters to be higher up, so they're using the birdcage to wank them.

This statement is the Appeal to motive Fallacy, not an argument.

 

[Damage3245]

I am neutral about 6-C point. It debatable to say which as more strings, honestly. I believed that Donquixote Doflamingo refers to Awakening as stronger than ordinary devil fruits powers.

Doflamingo has never said the Awakening techniques were stronger than other Devil Fruit powers.

Just that it another stage to them; it essentially transforms his ability into something else.

 

[TataHakai]

Do we have an actual statement that says that awakening is physically superior to his other strings? or do feats support this notion?

Or are we just assuming that it's a further ability so it must be stronger

Because all i remember about awakening was that it allows you to transform things that aren't your body with your devil fruit

 

[Damage3245]

We don't have a statement saying Awakening is superior - or even on par - with other strings.

Awakening allows Doflamigno to convert inanimate objects into string. We never get to see a feat of his attacks actually working on anyone successfully; he hit base Luffy multiple times with them and failed to put him down, and Gear 4 Luffy wasn't hit by any of the Awakened strings.

Doflamingo's other techniques have sometimes been broken by weaker attacks (Kyros, Abdullah & Jeet & Gear 2 Luffy all destroying the string clones) whereas the Birdcage has never recieved any damage.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Torch Cin has explained why that's the case. We should stop going back into circles in the very same topic. This has been discussed tens of times during the last years since the Birdcage still was a thing in the manga.

The same goes for the outdated rejected scaling "issues" Damage says, which have been discussed in the past, like 4 or 5 years ago.

@Tata The Birdcage isn't even covered with Haki, which is the durability amping technique by default here, while others threads do have Haki with it. Plus, Doflamingo can summon the Birdcage from his hand with no effort at all. It's clearly something he can do whenever he wants, but people here are trying to argue that it's some kind of "ultimate technique" which isn't the case.

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca; why do you assume the amount of effort Doflamingo puts into it is relevant to the durability of the Birdcage? Also, I don't think we actually have any way or proving whether the Birdcage has or hasn't got Haki on it, right?

Awakened Techniques are also effortless (in fact I'd say just about all of Doflamingo's string techniques don't seem to require significant effort).

 

[The_Calaca]

You put more effort in something harder to do. You're stronger if you hit with actual interest in hurting the target. Why should we assume that the Birdcage is an entirely different thing when Doffy can summon it from his hand?

When Doffy uses Haki Post-Timeskip he's covered by the Kouka. The Birdcage isn't.

 

[Damage3245]

Haki can be visible or invisible. When a character uses Kouka it doesn't mean they're incapable of using invisible Haki.

> Why should we assume that the Birdcage is an entirely different thing when Doffy can summon it from his hand?

Why does summoning it from his hand means that it can't have a higher durability than other strings he creates?

None of Doflamingo's string techniques require any visible signs of effort.

We can assume that Birdcage is different because other strings Doflamingo has created have been torn apart, while the Birdcage is seemingly invulnerable.

One a side note, the Birdcage is a pretty weird construct; it can even block radio signals from escaping it despite the holes in it.

 

[The_Calaca]

Why should we assume it has higher durability if only Luffy has been able to break through the strings with his strongest form? The mercenaries don't count, they didn't destroyed the Black Knight, nor Kyros was able to do such a thing even cutting the BK's head.

We could count those instances as PIS as well.

 

[Damage3245]

Why count those instances specifically as PIS when there are many of them?


They didn't completely destroy the Black Knight; but they visibly damaged it.

Kyoros decapitated the Black Knight, which had to have involved cutting it.

Gear 2 Luffy visibly broke a Black Knight into pieces with a Gatling attack.

How can each of those by PIS when the alternative explanation is that Doflamingo's strings don't have a set durability of 40 Gigatons?

If you want to compare actual techniques, compare Parasite which was used on Sanji, Jozu and Luffy. Sanji and Jozu couldn't break free, whereas Gear 4 Luffy can. That at least is something that is consistent because it focuses on the same technique.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Calaca

Doflamingo also exerts 0 effort to create his awakening stings, so that point is moot.

The birdcage has thousands more strings than his awakening techniques, which would obviously allow it to tank more. If we really want to find the value for his awakening, we need to somehow find how much energy a single string from the birdcage tanked, and multiple it by the amount of strings his awakening attacks have(Unsure if that's allowed though).

 

[The_Calaca]

@Torch that's not allowed. Man from Shadows made a calc based on that and the result is hilariously wanked. It's calc stacking after all.

@Damage

Luffy breaking the Black Knight isn't PIS. Jet Gattling is his strongest G2 technique after all.

Abdullah and Jeet did nothing but stop the Black Knight. They weren't able to actually destroy it with a sword and a trident while Luffy with his fists could.

Kyros is in the same area. He cut the BK's head but the thing is still moving, showing no damage at all despite having his head separated from the body. This case is PIS if we consider Kyros actually harming the BK, but that's not the case when we see it can still operate with no problems.

Luffy's attacks broke the BK into pieces, and then it stopped coming back. Why would breaking it into pieces stop the BK when beheading doesn't? Because the first actually makes damage while the latter isn't effective.

This is a small but needed correction. None of the characters here would scale to 40GT but the difference in the strings Cin discussed above.

On a side note it's funny how you say that we can't count those instances as PIS since they are 3 of them when you tackled the 6-C saying that it holds no ground despite having three 6-C feats.

 

[Captain_Torch]

@Calaca

Yeah, I knew it wouldn't be allowed. Wanted to use that as an example to show the vast difference between birdcage and awakening.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't know about you, but this looks like damage to me.

Yes, the Black Knight wasn't destroyed by Kyros, but the point is he damaged it and the only way it could be damaged is if he destroyed some of the strings.

@Calaca; I'm not counting the 6-C feats as PIS, I just think the scaling for them is handled incorrectly.

 

[The_Calaca]

The strings are horizontally structured, meaning that a horizontal slash would do nothing but split them.
On top of that, Kyros would only need to cut one thread to behead the BK.

Hold no ground =/= PIS. Pay more attention, because I never said you treat the 6-C feats as outliers.

BTW, you should update the Birdcage durability with the old version, at least adding it to your current accepted value, considering Cin has explained why it should be like that.

 

[Dziga]

Ok, this discussion is getting pretty ridiculous and tiresome, there must a better way to decide this.

 

[The_Calaca]

There's no need. Damage is the only one who has problems with every calc that he doesn't do by himself and brings outdated topics to slow down this revisions.

We have staff approval and the arguments on our side. We don't need to go trying to make every person who has an argument happy. We can't, actually.

 

[Damage3245]

Calaca, I thought Cin had already said that using the ratio method isn't accurate?

Don't we need to find some other way of calcing the Birdcage durability?

EDIT: I've got to go offline now, but I'll say that Torch clearly isn't happy with the situation either and Tata only asked a question up above, he hasn't said which side he agrees with.

EDIT2: Calaca, if I think that something is flawed I'm going to call it out. Please don't try to downplay it as bringing up outdated topics. Nothing has been fully settled yet, we don't have a final calc and the scaling is questionable. You can't just pronounce yourself the winner until the discussion is over.

 

[The_Calaca]

Can you quote that part? Otherwise we'd need to wait for Cin's input about that.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll try to find Cin's own wording but from my perspective it is like this:

• A ratio of roughly 24% of the meteors body was in contact with the Birdcage (if we assume it was cut about 21,000 times), so the Birdcage's durability should scale up to 24% of the meteors kinetic energy.

• However, it's impossible for each of those strings to have taken a full 24% of the energy each.

• The energy was dispersed across approximately 21,000 threads. So dividing the energy up by among them, you'd get about City level energy per thread.

 

[The_Calaca]

Tata hasn't said much about the matter since he doesn't know much about the verse.

Torch's point is that is more logical to assume that the Birdcage is stronger than Doffy's regular strings when it has been explained why the opposite thing is actually more correct to assume. Or even to assume that some of his attacks are logically stronger than that.

The flaw is inside your own point of view. You're just trying to sound like the victim because people disagree with you, but we have accepted many things coming from you even if we don't like them. You're the one who's being absurdly stubborn to fill your dreams about reforming the wiki at your own mindset.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - For the very last time:

I literally explained that the "energy being divided up to tens of thousands of threads" would be impossible as the meteorite's energy just by touching the cage would then be enough to bust a massive hole in the cage. Large Town+~Small City Durability per thread is NOT going to withstand the KE impact + the explosive energy from the meteorite, which now apparently has the KE of over 40 GT if we are using 20km/s for the speed (Also, looks like the Doffy speed calc needs an edit again. What is that, the 12th time?). They HAVE to be strong enough to withstand the meteorite,.

• This alone doesn't mean they are "equal", but implies they are not THAT much weaker, however, the following indicated the threads individually capable of being comparable/equal to the meteorite:
  • 1) The meteorite was the one that was destroyed--not the threads.
  • 2) The actual destruction the meteorite applied to the city is laughable considering its size and calc'd KE, meaning the cage absorbed it
  • 3) Let's say that the cage magically divided the energy up between the threads: the cage is connected at one point (the top), so if we were to assume that each thread only absorbed City level AP, the energy would've traveled up and EASILY snapped the threads, assuming the threads have City level Durability.

Conclusion: SCALE THE CAGE TO THE METEORITE.

Black Knight is literally going to need to be placed as Unknown Durability, as discussed earlier. It's got the AP to fight Law and Luffy, but Kyros can dismember it (Personally believe this to be a ruse to draw him into a trap, as seen in Chapter 745, but that's my opinion and would need to be discussed whether or not this is an outlier), and the brothers unraveled it (That entire chapter [752] was full of contradictions, honestly. Tell me one instance where it was cohesive.)

Again, the Bird-Cage was made with no preparation, no strain on Doflamingo's part, and the only character to destroy Doflamingo's threads (outside of Black Knight--Kyros being the only outlier) is Gear 4th Luffy, which is established to be physically superior to Doflamingo--even with Haki.

• The ONLY reason I can see people arguing that Bird-Cage > All of Doflamingo's attacks is that "Fujitora must be comparable or stronger to Doffy due to being an Admiral" despite nothing in the series actually supporting this.

Gladius literally got sent flying, was on the ground coughing, and struggled to get up. Luffy paid him no mind at all and was just trying to get Kyros out of his grip. Where was Luffy serious? If anything, Gear 2nd was used to give him the speed necessary to blitz Gladius before he could kill Kyros. Also, are we really going to argue Gladius having durability comparable to Gear 2nd AP just because he got up from one kick? It's not like it was meant to kill him in the first place. Same case with Chinjao--Luffy only one-shot him after he was trash talking Ace.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise how exactly you wish to scale this? I am obviously fine with making the Yonkou, Gol. D. Roger, Silvers Rayleigh, the admirals, and Mihawk 6-C, but giving a vast number of characters that tier seems exaggerated.

 

[Damage3245]

If we do only restrict this to the top tiers then I can accept the scaling (at least until the next major thing that shakes up the series).

I'm not sure I understand your point about the Birdcage though Cin; the meteor passed through the Birdcage and the only apparent sign of it being slowed was that there wasn't much destruction bedding caused when it hit the ground.

But are you site that's not just Oda being inconsistent with how much destruction should actually happen? Why would Fujitora drop meteors capable of destroying the whole island in the first place? And I think I recall a case of a meteor hitting a marine battleship and not destroying it.

As far as I can tell it is still possible that the meteor wasn't significantly slowed by the Birdcage, manning the majority of its energy did not go into the Birdcage.

Isn't there a better solution than scaling the Birdcage fully to the meteor?

 

[Damage3245]

@Calaca, the arguments for why Doffy's attacks are superior to the Birdcage don't hold up.

All of Doffy's strings are casual, so comparing the techniques based on effort is impossible.

On top of that the AP of the Birdcage is unknown. We can only calc its durability.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - In the case of the battle-ship, Law grabbed it and moved it with Tact. Nothing supports the meteorite holding onto the KE it should have had in that case.

In the case of the Bird-Cage, again, you can argue all you want, but meteorites upon impact are destroyed down to dust, or vapor when falling at speeds in which they catch fire. The only parts destroyed were the parts coming into contact with the cage, the meteorite likely slowing down greatly before passing through and falling for a distance before hitting the city and not suffering any (noticeable) damage. It's entirely logical, and consistent for the meteorite's KE to be entirely absorbed by the cage. Also, NOW you want to argue "inconsistencies" despite our discussion early on? I'm not amused.

You are arguing for possibilities that are simply unsupported in any form. You want "just the Bird-Cage" to scale despite there being more-than enough support that Doflamingo--the individual who CREATED the Bird-Cage from nothing--should scale to his own ability.

@Ant -

The individuals who scale directly are Doflamingo (creator of the cage), and Bound Man Luffy (Stronger than Doflamingo and capable of destroying his Awakening threads with a head-butt). (Both 6-C)

• The Yonko being far superior to Bound Man Luffy, and Doflamingo confirming that Kaido would undoubtedly destroy him. (At least 6-C)
  • By extension to this, Mihawk (6-C)
• The Original 3 Admirals (Aokiji, Akainu, and Kizaru) should be stronger than Doflamingo. (6-C)
  • Rayleigh by extension for fighting Kizaru for an extended period. (6-C)
• Cracker, Katakuri, and others of this level for being able to fend off attacks from Bound Man Luffy, or at least capable of consistently harming him (Likely 6-C)
• Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy ca be scaled from the "3/several times stronger" statement implied by Doflamingo, making them scale to 1/3 of the feat (Likely 6-C)
  • Base Luffy is up in the air for the sole reason that we don't know how much his gears amplify him, and the manga hasn't been clear on the difference between him using Base and Gear 2nd in Chapter 782.

At this point, things need a little more detail:

• Law is capable of defending himself against the Black Knight, which gave Gear 2nd Luffy trouble (Possibly 6-C), though he's clearly far inferior to Doflamingo as previously discussed
• Fujitora is above Law and possibly Gear 3rd Luffy, but by an unknown amount (Likely 6-C), and his environmental destruction obviously scales to his own meteorite.

Other than this, Prime Garp, Possibly Sengoku, Blackbeard. Gold Roger, but personally, we'd be better off leaving him as "Unknown". We never saw the guy fight. I possibly missed one or two.

Everyone else (The Mid tiers) should remain the same (Low 7-B. 7-B if Pica's arm KE increases the value of the current feat they scale to). Chinjao fought a casual Luffy up until he insulted Ace, and was one-shot (Any damage Luffy took was from Chinjao using Haki, and it was still superficial--he clearly doesn't scale). Gladius took a Jet Stamp, but Luffy was clearly not going for the kill, or to even incapacitate Gladius--not to mention Gladius was still sent flying and clearly damaged by the attack.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I personally think that seems exaggerated. Durability is not automatically the same as attack potency. Damage3245's scaling seems safer.

 

[Damage3245]

> You are arguing for possibilities that are simply unsupported in any form. You want "just the Bird-Cage" to scale despite there being more-than enough support that Doflamingo--the individual who CREATED the Bird-Cage from nothing--should scale to his own ability.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Do you think that because Doffy creates a string with a certain durability that he must also have that same durabiltiy?

> It's entirely logical, and consistent for the meteorite's KE to be entirely absorbed by the cage.

If the meteors K.E. was entirely absorbed by the Birdcage they would have come to a deadstop.

Nothing in the manga implies this happened.

The meteors simply causing less damage than you'd expect the calced result to provide makes no sense as an argument because Oda doesn't use our calcs for his series. He's not thinking 'a 40 Gigaton meteor has to cause this much damage'.

> Gear 2nd and 3rd Luffy ca be scaled from the "3/several times stronger" statement implied by Doflamingo, making them scale to 1/3 of the feat (Likely 6-C)

Do you not think how it would make no sense for Luffy to go from 'just tickling' Doflamingo with his Gear 2 attacks, to launching him across the city and completely breaking his guard with a single Gear 4 attack, if he was only getting a 3 times strength increase?

It definitely doesn't appear consistent to assume that Gear 2 is only 1/3rd as strong as Gear 4.