One Piece Post-Timeskip Scaling and Calcs #7

[CinCameron20]

Are you serious?

Are you implying Gladius to be comparable to Gear 2nd Luffy just because he got up from a kick? Luffy kicked Gladius in order to get him away from Kyros. Gladius was still sent flying, and clearly damaged quite heavily as he was struggling to get back up. The kick was casual at that. The next page shows Luffy being very casual. He is only about to fight Gladius upon being challenged by him, but runs to find Law, Riku and Doflamingo per Viola's request.

• So are we now we're going to argue Sanji to be equal to Luffy again, just cuz Luffy was hurt by his kicks? No.

I already explained to you why the strings would scale to Bird-Cage using several reasons. You bringing the topic back up is just reinforcing my opinion that you just don't want to buy it. The only issue you have seems to be that Luffy would be 6-C despite characters he was never fighting seriously with being capable of lasting more than a minute against him. I'm done. Waiting for staff input.

Ciao.

 

[Damage3245]

Isn't that how basic durability scaling works?

Character takes a hit, character isn't seriously damaged, characters gets back up and keeps fighting. I'm not saying Gladius' AP is comparable to Gear 2, but his durabity is clearly enough for him to take a Gear 2 kick which according to this is now a Likely 6-C feat.

I don't think Sanji is equal to Luffy because Luffy clearly wasn't using Haki to defend himself and didn't fight back against Sanji at all despite Sanji using both Haki and Diamble Jambe, and he still couldn't put Luffy down for more than a few seconds.

EDIT: If the Mountain level+ end for the Aokiji feat is accepted, I would suggest putting Doflamingo at Mountain level+, and Gear 4 Luffy as At least Mountain level+, likely higher.

 

[Antvasima]

@Calaca

Can you summarise the argument here in an easy to understand manner. I have very limited time available.

 

[The_Calaca]

I have requested the input from a calc group member, but we're again discussing if the Birdcage should scale albeit not fully to the meteors.

On the other side, the meteor calc is wrong since the used speed can only be achieved during night. I've contacted TataHakai to solve which end we should use. The feat is getting upgraded no matter what.

The scaling is pretty much done. Damage's revolving around the same topics we concluded about it, but the veredict is that only the Top Tiers would scale to the Birdcage while the rest of the characters would scale to any other feat, dismissing cases like Bellamy hitting Luffy or Gladius "tanking" a casual kick from Luffy as well.

 

[Damage3245]

To be specific, I think scaling characters directly to the Birdcage will result in a series of massive revisions that would make lots, and lots of characters Island level which is inconsistent with the rest of the verse as it currently exists. We'd basically be scaling around 40 or 50 profiles to Island level based on just one feat.

And we'd have to ignore a lot of scaling/feats in order to avoid that, if we stuck with the Birdcage scaling.

Exclusively trying to scale only the Top Tiers to it is being deliberately picky.

 

[TataHakai]

I think we've used 20 km/s before for calcs but it was Originally Kep who suggested using that speed for meteors during the day

It'll probably be best to contact him about it. Personally i'm fine but if we are going to keep using 20 km/s for meteors during the day we should probably add that to the calculations page Ant.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that only the Yonkou, the admirals, and Silvers Rayleigh would scale to 6-C?

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

You just pissed off Cin, Damage.

 

[The_Calaca]

@Damage We didn't scaled the characters to the Birdcage when it was Large Mountain level, except from those who showed proper scaling in the next arcs. You're disagreeing with it because you think we're suddendly going to change everything in the scaling just for the sake of getting more 6-C characters when that's not the case.

>Exclusively trying to scale only the Top Tiers to it is being deliberately picky.

Scaling the Top Tiers is picky

Scaling the Mid Tiers is wrong.

There's no gray area for you.

Tell me which characters in the Mid Tier realm would scale to it? Those who weren't Large Mountain level before? What would change? The numbers change, the scaling doesn't. You revolving around this very same point deliberately slow down the revisions with unnecessary discussions that have been settled like years ago.

@Tata I'm gonna contact Kep, thank you.

 

[Damage3245]

I thought that only the Yonkou, the admirals, and Silvers Rayleigh would scale to 6-C?

That was when the meteor feat was calced to be lower.

If we directly scale Gear 4 to the meteor calc after it has been updated (which would be about 43 Gigatons) then base Luffy / Gear 2 Luffy could potentially be 6-C as well.

Which would result in quite a lot of characters that scale to base Luffy being upgraded all the way to Island level, despite the verse consistently having lower feats and calcs than that.

My proposed solution would be not to scale anyone directly to the Birdcage, and leave the majority of the existing scaling intact.

 

[Damage3245]

You just pissed off Cin, Damage.

No offense but this kind of comment isn't helpful.

Nobody is trying to piss off anybody in these threads. We all just want what we think is most accurate.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

But then again i agree with Calaca and the others that you just dismissing at this point.

 

[Damage3245]

But then again i agree with Calaca and the others that you just dismissing at this point.

I apologize if I sound dismissive but I just think that the scaling being proposed is deliberately ignoring the potential ramifications.

If base Luffy in Dressrosa is 6-C, then how is Old Chinjao not when he tanked base Luffy's attacks and even took hardened Gear 2 attacks and kept fighting?

 

[The_Calaca]

Base Luffy shouldn't be 6-C to begin with. Even Cin said that he should be around 7-B instead.

 

[Damage3245]

Base Luffy shouldn't be 6-C to begin with. Even Cin said that he should be around 7-B instead.

Cin said this for base Luffy: At least 7-B, At most 6-C in Base

But my point still stands for Gear 2 which is being proposed to be Likely 6-C.

 

[The_Calaca]

G2 being Likely 6-C will depend on the result for the Birdcage Durability. If it's 10GT then G4 scales to that while G2 would scale to 3.3GT, which isn't 6-C to begin with.

Plus, if Chinjao truly scales to Luffy then I don't see the problem. He isn't fodder, and when Lao G and Sai beat him he got his power depleted from Luffy's fight.

 

[Stefano4444]

Boundman Luffy and Awakening Doflamingo should in theory directly scale to the Birdcage, in both AP and Dura.

- The Awakening is supposed to be Doffy's strongest ability, meaning the Awakening's strings should be at least just as durable than the strings used to created the Birdcage, especially when there are put intro building's size columns.

- Boundman Luffy was able to bend a column of those Awakening strings with a headbutt, for then later easily overpowered the God Thread with his King Kong Gun, which Doffy took it and survive it.

- Doffy's Awakening strings were able to momentarily stop Boundman Luffy, meaning Awakening strings should be more or less in the same league of strength of Boundman Luffy.

 

[Damage3245]

@Stefano; can you provide a source for 'Awakening is Doffy's strongest ability' and why exactly that means they're as durable as the strings used to create the Birdcage?

Doflamingo's quote was:

" Listen up, hatchling. Devil Fruit abilities have a whole other stage to them. It's called "Awakening"! Very rarely, an ability will "awaken", and begin to affect things other than the user's own body! "

That just seems to imply that the defining feature of Awakening is Doffy's ability to transmute structures into threads.

 

[Kepekley23]

If the issue here is about meteor speed, as I have explained before, the 11.2km/s speed is impossible except during the night due to the Earth's rotation slowing down the meteor. The average meteorite speed, according to NASA, is 20km/s, so that should be used instead

 

[Damage3245]

Alright, thank you Kep. That means the meteor will be updated to about 40 Gigatons. I'll update the calc now.

 

[DontTalkDT]

If the issue here is about meteor speed, as I have explained before, the 11.2km/s speed is impossible during the night due to the Earth's rotation slowing down the meteor. The average meteorite speed, according to NASA, is 20km/s, so that should be used instead

Can you link some source on that?

 

[Stefano4444]

@Stefano; can you provide a source for 'Awakening is Doffy's strongest ability' and why exactly that means they're as durable as the strings used to create the Birdcage?

Just common sense, Doffy didn't used Awakening until he was put in the corner, never before he used such ability in combat, meaning the Awakening is supposed to be a big deal that should make the Devil Fruit's ability more powerful as a result.

Otherwise Luffy could had no problem destroy any of Doffy's Awakening threads and beat the f**k out of him, if the Awakening strings were just as weak as regular strings, no it simply wouldn't make sense.

Just like how Gear 2nd doesn't simply speed up Luffy's blood pressure but it also increase his strength and speed, Doffy's Awakening doesn't just allow Doffy to converting inorganic matter into strings but it also permit to create threads make by strings which are superior than regular strings.

 

[Damage3245]

Just common sense, Doffy didn't used Awakening until he was put in the corner, never before he used such ability in combat, meaning the Awakening is supposed to be a big deal that should make the Devil Fruit's ability more powerful as a result.

Small correction but Doffy actually did use it against Luffy before Gear 4 was even activated.

Though I can see why it is easy to conclude that Doffy's Awakened attacks are stronger than his regular attacks, but that doesn't explain why we should treat the Awakened strings as being more durable, or as durable as the Birdcage. No comparison is ever thrown up between the Birdcage and Doffy's other strings.

 

[Kepekley23]

Can you link some source on that?

If you mean the average meteor speed, this paper: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900003319.pdf

 

[DontTalkDT]

If you mean the average meteor speed, this paper: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900003319.pdf

I, for the most part, mean the entire meteors at daytime vs meteors at nighttime thing.

 

[Stefano4444]

No comparison is ever thrown up between the Birdcage and Doffy's other strings.

Not directly, but the sheer amount of strings that Doffy is capable to convert for create the Awakening threads should be comparable to the number of strings used for the Birdcage.

Meaning the durability of all the Awakening columns should reach levels comparable to the Birdcage, especially when all the strings are all put together instead of be separated, which should make them much harder to destroy.

 

[The_Calaca]

Though I can see why it is easy to conclude that Doffy's Awakened attacks are stronger than his regular attacks, but that doesn't explain why we should treat the Awakened strings as being more durable, or as durable as the Birdcage. No comparison is ever thrown up between the Birdcage and Doffy's other strings.

You don't see it because you keep ignoring everyone else. Cin explained why that's the case like 30 post above.

 

[Kepekley23]

I, for the most part, mean the entire meteors at daytime vs meteors at nighttime thing.

I mean, it's kind of what relativity and aerodynamics entail to begin with. When the meteor enters the Earth's atmopshere on the evening side, the evening hemisphere is facing away from the direction the meteor is traveling towards, and since the Earth moves around the Sun a few dozens of kilometers per second, it needs to catch up in order to enter the Earth's atmosphere. While in the leading hemisphere (thus daytime), the direction of the meteor's motion and the Earth's motion are aligned, meaning it can catch up with the Earth's atmosphere very easily, thus arriving with more speed.

I will try to find a link reinforcing this concept.

 

[Damage3245]

Not directly, but the sheer amount of strings that Doffy is capable to convert for create the Awakening threads should be comparable to the number of strings used for the Birdcage.

Meaning the durability of all the Awakening columns should reach levels comparable to the Birdcage, especially when all the strings are all put together instead of be separated, which should make them much harder to destroy.

I'm not just talking about the number of strings; I'm talking about how we know the durability of the strings for both techniques is exactly the same.

We have cases where Doflamingo's strings are less durable individually to the point where lower tier characters can destroy them. So we can't automatically scale the durability of the strings between unrelated techniques.

 

[Kepekley23]

@DT

Found one: https://www.amsmeteors.org/meteor-showers/meteor-faq/#3

 

[Antvasima]

@Kepekley & DontTalk

Thank you for helping out.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DT
Found one: https://www.amsmeteors.org/meteor-showers/meteor-faq/#3

While it is correct that meteors must approach from the evening (not night) side, I'm not sure if that means they have to impact on the evening side.
The reason for that is that they are directed towards the planet by the earths gravitational field and can come in at an angle.

It's badly drawn in, but if a meteor went along a path qualitatively like the green line drawn in here it would still need to "catch up" with the earths revolution, since it comes from the evening side, but not impact there due to flying in on a slightly different angle.

 

[Captain_Torch]

I honestly think it's best to go for the safe 11.2 km/s end.

 

[Kepekley23]

In this particular case, the meteor clearly impacted on the leading side though, so that's semantics.

EDIT: Leading, not evening.

 

[DontTalkDT]

In this particular case, the meteor clearly impacted on the leading side, so that's semantics.
EDIT: Leading, not evening.

I'm going to be honest... I don't even know which case is debated here in particular.

So I also don't know why it would the the leading side here.

Albeit, it is relevant to say that a meteor can outright orbit around the planet, which means that even impacting at the opposite end of the approach might be possible.

 

[Elizhaa]

I agree with CinCameron20 and Calaca Vs's arguments. From the Occam's razor standpoint, it take way more explaination to say Donquixote Doflamingo's strongest attacks, with Awakening at least, doesn't scale to Bird Cage where it he perform it without Preparation.

 

[Damage3245]

I agree with CinCameron20 and Calaca Vs's arguments. From the Occam's razor standpoint, it take way more explaination to say Donquixote Doflamingo's strongest attacks, with Awakening at least, doesn't scale to Bird Cage where it he perform it without Preparation.

The issue is that we're comparing the durability of the techniques, not their AP.

Doflamingo's Awakened attacks are likely his highest AP attacks, but the Birdcage's AP is unknown. All we're doing by scaling it to the meteor calc is figuring out its durability.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that Calaca seems to make sense.

 

[Captain_Torch]

Doflamingo doesn't require preparation for awakening either though.

Also, awakening is so strong because it has more strings than his usual attacks. And if we look at it from that standpoint, birdcage easily has faaar more strings than his awakening, making it more durable(Which explains why NOBODY, including Fujitora, could cut the birdcage)

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

I 100% agree with Calaca and Cin.