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NNT Speed Revision

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ByAsura said:
That's never stated in-series, and just relies on the assumption (Speedster's I assume) that Meliodas wasn't using that power in DK's hand just because he was flying afterwards. It's shown to be separate from his base form when he transforms, and DK explicitly says he isn't using it in base form during their fight.

Also, if it's combinable with his base form, wouldn't he just stack all of his transformations on top of it and use the level of power needed to shred 50% DK's arm to wreck 100% DK rather than getting his ass kicked?

We've already rejected this in previous threads.
Click to expand...
Oh Yeah i remember it now
 
ByAsura said:
There's a new calculation for Sealed base Meliodas, increasing his speed to Mach 4415.5 (MHS+).

Using a 2x multiplier for Meliodas and Zeldris' Demon Marks was accepted here, and Snatch being additive in speed, LS and AP was accepted here.

Demon Meliodas outsped Snatch Ban, who absorbed all of his base speed and added it to his own (Ban was slightly faster than Meliodas prior). Mach 8831 (Sub-Rel).

Galand at half speed (since Ban stole it from him) mostly keeps up with a much faster Snatch Ban. Mach 17662.1 (Sub-Rel).

Base Unsealed Meliodas is way faster than Galand, and 2nd Mark is a 4x multiplier. Mach 70648.56 (Sub-Rel+).

Post-Revival base Meliodas is superior to his 2nd Mark, as he could wreck Derieri, and 2nd Mark is once again a 4x multiplier. Mach 282594.2 (Rel).

Now here's where the fun begins; FTL scaling.

Ludoshel's Flash has numerous speed of light statements under its belt, which have been accepted (I think).

Basically, 1st Mark Zeldris is able to keep up with Flash, although he's a little slower. Keep in mind, the clash has the same visual effects as Ludoshel's normal use of Flash, and the title is literally called Flash. Originally, I regarded Flash as something that only works in short bursts (something I still agree with) and regulated all of Zeldris' scaling to his combat speed, but I think this makes less sense upon review, since both 2nd Mark Zeldris and Mael were frequently able to perform feats on each other that go beyond simple combat speed, and show that their movements and reactions are at least somewhat similar.

Cusack and Chandler are physically superior to 1st Mark Zeldris, with the former even outspeeding a weakened Ludoshel (I don't even think he's using Flash here, but people will try to gaslight me into believing it, so yeah), but they're slower than full power Flash, and even Original Demon wasn't able to fully keep up with True Body Ludoshel's Flash (who has the same SoL statements for both forms).

1st Mark Ominous Nebula should also be FTL, since Ludoshel couldn't react to its slashing attack. There's a statement that Ominous Nebula only possibly surpasses Flash with 2nd Mark, but it's confirmed that Ominous Nebula is faster.

As for the rest, it's pretty simple.

While Zeldris was looking, Demon King Meliodas casually one-shot him with a lightning bolt. Ban one-shot him, base Meliodas alone can intercept attacks faster than this and blitz a faster (as in faster than 2nd Mark Zeldris, not DK Meliodas) Zeldris Demon King, etc.

Keep in mind, even if Zeldris is 2x SoL, nobody would breech into FTL+ because the largest multiplier at that point is 4x SoL. So no FTL+ scaling unless we accept that 100% Demon King is 2x faster than 50% Demon King (and therefore Demon King Meliodas), which is contradicted by him keeping up with the Sins, and a notion that was never accepted.

Basically,
  • A higher level of MHS+ BoS Meliodas, King, Diane, Ban, Diane, Gowther, Gilthunder, etc.
  • Sub-Rel Demon Meliodas and Snatch Ban.
  • A higher level of Sub-Rel Galand, Melascula, base Unsealed Meliodas, etc.
  • Sub-Rel+ Unsealed Demon Meliodas, Derieri, Tarmiel, Sariel, Estarossa, non-God Zeldris, etc.
  • Rel Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas.
  • Rel+ 1st Mark God Zel, Chandler, Cusack, Original Demon.
  • SoL Flash Ludoshel. On the profile, it'll just be written out as 'Speed of Light with Flash' with probably no prior rating.
  • FTL 2nd Mark Zeldris/Ominous Nebula, Induras, Post-Purgatory Meliodas (in general), Post-Purgatory Ban, Demon King (in general), Full Wings King, etc.
I also think that Drole should get Sub-Rel movement and reactions, with Sub-Rel+ combat speed
ByAsura said:
There's a new calculation for Sealed base Meliodas, increasing his speed to Mach 4415.5 (MHS+).

Using a 2x multiplier for Meliodas and Zeldris' Demon Marks was accepted here, and Snatch being additive in speed, LS and AP was accepted here.

Demon Meliodas outsped Snatch Ban, who absorbed all of his base speed and added it to his own (Ban was slightly faster than Meliodas prior). Mach 8831 (Sub-Rel).

Galand at half speed (since Ban stole it from him) mostly keeps up with a much faster Snatch Ban. Mach 17662.1 (Sub-Rel).

Base Unsealed Meliodas is way faster than Galand, and 2nd Mark is a 4x multiplier. Mach 70648.56 (Sub-Rel+).

Post-Revival base Meliodas is superior to his 2nd Mark, as he could wreck Derieri, and 2nd Mark is once again a 4x multiplier. Mach 282594.2 (Rel).

Now here's where the fun begins; FTL scaling.

Ludoshel's Flash has numerous speed of light statements under its belt, which have been accepted (I think).

Basically, 1st Mark Zeldris is able to keep up with Flash, although he's a little slower. Keep in mind, the clash has the same visual effects as Ludoshel's normal use of Flash, and the title is literally called Flash. Originally, I regarded Flash as something that only works in short bursts (something I still agree with) and regulated all of Zeldris' scaling to his combat speed, but I think this makes less sense upon review, since both 2nd Mark Zeldris and Mael were frequently able to perform feats on each other that go beyond simple combat speed, and show that their movements and reactions are at least somewhat similar.

Cusack and Chandler are physically superior to 1st Mark Zeldris, with the former even outspeeding a weakened Ludoshel (I don't even think he's using Flash here, but people will try to gaslight me into believing it, so yeah), but they're slower than full power Flash, and even Original Demon wasn't able to fully keep up with True Body Ludoshel's Flash (who has the same SoL statements for both forms).

1st Mark Ominous Nebula should also be FTL, since Ludoshel couldn't react to its slashing attack. There's a statement that Ominous Nebula only possibly surpasses Flash with 2nd Mark, but it's confirmed that Ominous Nebula is faster.

As for the rest, it's pretty simple.

While Zeldris was looking, Demon King Meliodas casually one-shot him with a lightning bolt. Ban one-shot him, base Meliodas alone can intercept attacks faster than this and blitz a faster (as in faster than 2nd Mark Zeldris, not DK Meliodas) Zeldris Demon King, etc.

Keep in mind, even if Zeldris is 2x SoL, nobody would breech into FTL+ because the largest multiplier at that point is 4x SoL. So no FTL+ scaling unless we accept that 100% Demon King is 2x faster than 50% Demon King (and therefore Demon King Meliodas), which is contradicted by him keeping up with the Sins, and a notion that was never accepted.

Basically,
  • A higher level of MHS+ BoS Meliodas, King, Diane, Ban, Diane, Gowther, Gilthunder, etc.
  • Sub-Rel Demon Meliodas and Snatch Ban.
  • A higher level of Sub-Rel Galand, Melascula, base Unsealed Meliodas, etc.
  • Sub-Rel+ Unsealed Demon Meliodas, Derieri, Tarmiel, Sariel, Estarossa, non-God Zeldris, etc.
  • Rel Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas.
  • Rel+ 1st Mark God Zel, Chandler, Cusack, Original Demon.
  • SoL Flash Ludoshel. On the profile, it'll just be written out as 'Speed of Light with Flash' with probably no prior rating.
  • FTL 2nd Mark Zeldris/Ominous Nebula, Induras, Post-Purgatory Meliodas (in general), Post-Purgatory Ban, Demon King (in general), Full Wings King, etc.
I also think that Drole should get Sub-Rel movement and reactions, with Sub-Rel+ combat speed.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Agree
 
Pretty much immediately, but we need to make the 4KoA profiles for scaling purposes and organise it.

I'll try to get that done within the week, but it's an extremely thorough verse-wide revision.
 
I've made some changes. Hopefully it's not too bad since I rushed it (I plan on going to bed soon).
 
I thought we accepted it there and elsewhere, but ok then. Might as well continue here.

Personally, I don't see what's really debatable about 'as fast as a flash of light' and 'literally allows him to move with the speed of a flash of light'. Arguing it's just referring to intervals of light doesn't make sense because it's like saying how 'long is a piece of string?'

If not, we can just go with a possibly rating.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
The Light Speed wasn't even really accepted in that previous thread, it was being debated until the final comments even.
Click to expand...
The final comments was just discussing how to apply it with some other stuff. The main counter arguments died down.

But it had Byasura agreeing to it and possibly Damage(?).

But even without that it's already accepted here.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
The Light Speed wasn't even really accepted in that previous thread, it was being debated until the final comments even.
Click to expand...
It’s being accepted here anyway and i don’t think « as fast as a flash of light », « that allow him to move litteraly at the speed of light » are debatable statements
 
I wouldn't necessarily say it was re-accepted here. People probably just glossed over the whole 'I think' thing.

But, if nobody really has any problems, I do think we should implement it by default.
 
I'm not seeing any issues personally with the scaling of MHS+ lightning calc all the way up to Rel with the multipliers and scaling.

However, I'm just not fully on board with Ludoshel being Light Speed. Reading the raw Kanji I don't read it as "as fast as light".

If I were to personally translate the Grace's description I would say, "Literally, moving like a flash". It's not specifically "light speed" nor even explicitly "light" itself.

It does have "literally" in a very literal sense, but it also has "like/as" which is kinda contradicting and the "flash" can also be read as "glint". To me it's just an idiom, I wouldn't take it as literally meaning light itself, but similar to English phrases that overuse "literally" and the common usage of "flash" to imply something being quick.

I just don't agree with it being light, if Nakaba was being literal then they've would've just literally put the kanji for light.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
I'm not seeing any issues personally with the scaling of MHS+ lightning calc all the way up to Rel with the multipliers and scaling.

However, I'm just not fully on board with Ludoshel being Light Speed. Reading the raw Kanji I don't read it as "as fast as light".

If I were to personally translate the Grace's description I would say, "Literally, moving like a flash". It's not specifically "light speed" nor even explicitly "light" itself.

It does have "literally" in a very literal sense, but it also has "like/as" which is kinda contradicting and the "flash" can also be read as "glint". To me it's just an idiom, I wouldn't take it as literally meaning light itself, but similar to English phrases that overuse "literally" and the common usage of "flash" to imply something being quick.

I just don't agree with it being light, if Nakaba was being literal then they've would've just literally put the kanji for light.
Click to expand...
« Flash de luz » means Flash of light Nakaba fully intends it to be a flash of light
 
We're not arguing that it's actually converting Ludo into light (or at least I'm not, because I don't buy the Graces being totally literal to their names/Genesis counterparts), we're arguing that moving like a literal flash of light is moving at SoL velocities.

You'd be right that flash was meaningless if it didn't specify a flash of light right after.
 
ByAsura said:
We're not arguing that it's actually converting Ludo into light (or at least I'm not, because I don't buy the Graces being totally literal to their names/Genesis counterparts), we're arguing that moving like a literal flash of light is moving at SoL velocities.

You'd be right that flash was meaningless if it didn't specify a flash of light right after.
Click to expand...
It doesn't say flash of light though, it says speed of a flash
 
If it just says speed of a flash, then I don't agree with using it.

But Makai and Zezu say it doesn't. So I'll wait for the translation details to be debated.
 
ByAsura said:
If it just says speed of a flash, then I don't agree with using it.

But Makai and Zezu say it doesn't. So I'll wait for the translation details to be debated.
Click to expand...
Oh I'd like to hear what they get too, it's been a while since I took Japanese, but I'm very sure it's "flash" and not "light". The kanji can be seen as "light", but it's generally meant for flash or even glint primarily before light since light has it's own kanji.
 
Actually the old "accepted" thread uses a translation app which is supposedly frowned upon here so we might aswell knowledgeable translation guys like makai for example
 
Majinere566 said:
Actually the old "accepted" thread uses a translation app which is supposedly frowned upon here so we might aswell knowledgeable translation guys like makai for example
Click to expand...
I thought we went over the exactitudes in the that thread. I guess I'm just misremembering because it was such a sloppy debate, ngl.
 
Ok, the new version of Mel's calc has been accepted. I'll bring out the altered scaling.
 
Makai641001 said:
Read ALL the statements

閃光 means a flash of light

So the statement Is about him moving litteraly at the speed of a flash of light
Click to expand...
That's "senko", it usually just means "flash" as in like "glint". It's not really nor usually "flash of light". If Nakaba had meant speed of light, then why not just say speed of light when there is literally a shorter kanji to explicitly mean that?
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
That's "senko", it usually just means "flash" as in like "glint". It's always nor usually "flash of light". If Nakaba had meant speed of light, then why not just say speed of light when there is literally a shorter kanji to explicitly mean that?
Click to expand...
Senko natively intends flash of light so he won’t say flash of light of light
 
Makai641001 said:
Senko natively intends flash of light so he won’t say flash of light of light
Click to expand...
Natively? Or do you mean "naturally" like in everyday usage? Because then it would just be "flash", not flash of light.

For example, I'll use "senko" in another sentence:

彼女はいなずま稲妻のせんこう閃光をみ見てひめい悲鳴をあげた

You wouldn't natively read this as "she screamed at the flash of light lightning". You would read it as, "she screamed at the flash of lightning".

I do not understand why you're saying this explicitly is "flash of light" when senko does not mean that unless natively/naturally.
 
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