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NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

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Stop... I'm willing to try and help out here despite not wanting to, but this is exactly the shit that's making me instantly regret it. It doesn't make people want to help. It makes them want to quietly not go anywhere near these discussions.
 
The whole thing about "appeal to authority" was saying staff agree with me so I am right, which by defintion is a appeal to authority, not about the actual arguments of a thread or being rejected

Also "Sonic fans" are people, they can argue and support other series, not related, I even was the one who said to drop it attacking them doesn't help anything, also nobody said anything about longer post os better your posts are even the biggest one than anyone here

Can we just like, not attack fanbases and others and just argue in arguments instead
 
Sera EX said:
Stop... I'm willing to try and help out here despite not wanting to, but this is exactly the shit that's making me instantly regret it. It doesn't make people want to help. It makes them want to quietly not go anywhere near these discussions.
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Sorry, but are you refering to who? The lack of a quote makes it a little harder
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Anyway, we already addressed the same repeated arguments. AKM Sama and I have both went over the idea of "Worlds" not being enough to qualify as meaning Universe. And the only use of the word "Universe" we found uses the context to basically say the entirety of the real world and the dream world is the universe. And Reality in context I already explained the VSBW's definition of reality when used in context. The use of the word Reality here simply doesn't line up with meaning alternate universes but simply part of the universe. Just because my bedroom is reality, doesn't mean bedroom is a universe.

For the conclusion, I find the conclusion that NiGHTS is simply 3-A.
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Gonna ignore the shade being thrown since its irrelevant to the debate. The fact that Owl refers to where the humans come from as world (being a stated reality / outright universe as where the humans come from that Wiseman wanted to remake) as one out of the bunches of worlds in their cosmology is pretty much is the difference in conclusion here getting it to 2-B. This isn't really bringing anything new here to context via scans.

Ignoring the timeline stuff that is currently a standard even Sera's apparently hinting it should get relooked at?
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
First of all, this thread wasn't even initially supposed to be about Sonic; it was about NiGHTS. That being said, the OP added in some Sonic related topics and even brought up possible connections so it ended up becoming labeled as "Sonic thread". But the fact remains is that an overwhelming amount of Sonic supporters got involved and are currently using this as a tool upgrade Sonic to 2-B. I agree it's best to avoid discussing the unhealthy reputation however.
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Can you not go out of your way to attack an entire fanbase when the reason for people supporting a thread has nothing to do with whether or not the evidence presented is legitimate to make a revision on? Plus you act as if being a Sonic fan means you can't support or debate for other franchises. This is the kind of behavior that causes threads to become derailed, toxic, and filled with drama, as an admin you should know better.

I wasn't even going to participate on this thread but then I see this shit going on.
 
It wasn't an attack, it was just a point out. And mostly a defence, as people were attacking Antvasima. And no, being a Sonic fan doesn't make one incapable of supporting other verses. I was only pointing it out because a few other staff members and regular users mentioned "Sonic". Which is not an attack but a clarification that this is a NiGHTS thread and not a Sonic thread. That's all that paragraph existed for.

I cannot speak for Antvasima, but it was more so him who said "Sonic Fan", and while I can agree that it may be uncalled for, he was just working his best for the community. He's more overworked than any other staff member regarding these scenarios and is on vacation right now. So it's best not to attack anyone for that matter. He also never claimed staff members to be perfect; no one is at all period. But yes, the drama needs to stop; on all sides.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It wasn't an attack, it was just a point out. And no, being a Sonic fan doesn't make one incapable of supporting other verses. I was only pointing it out because a few other staff members and regular users mentioned "Sonic". Which is not an attack but a clairification that this is a NiGHTS thread and not a Sonic thread. That's all that paragraph existed for.
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Regardless of the connection between Sonic and NiGHTS, this is indeed a thread about NiGHTS, so everyone should keep Sonic, his fanbase, and whatever unrelated drama out of their mouths and focus on the topic at hand, which is NiGHTS being 2-B.
 
Sera EX said:
@User

It was addressing everyone (for context it was after Shake's post). Things got heated for no reason and it's making me sick.
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Oh okay I agree as well with this

So, can we get back on topic and can adress Mephisto new point?
 
I should probably not have mentioned any specific fanbase, yes. Sorry about that. I have just been told that it has caused problems for part of our staff recently.
 
Mephistus said:
The fact that Owl refers to where the humans come from as world (being a stated reality / outright universe as where the humans come from that Wiseman wanted to remake) as one out of the bunches of worlds in their cosmology is pretty much is the difference in conclusion here getting it to 2-B. This isn't really bringing anything new here to context via scans.

Ignoring the timeline stuff that is currently a standard even Sera's apparently hinting it should get relooked at?
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We already addressed those parts that were brought up multiple times. The place visitors coming from being called "World" isn't enough to say they came from a different universe. And "Reality" was already addressed to not equate to Universe, especially in this context. And "Universe" was once again referring to the entirety of the verse, not any individual dream worlds. Wisemon was going to effect the real world upon covering the Dream World, so he is indeed Universal because of that. But none of the individual stuff are stated to be Timelines or universes. Pritti especially went over this better than anyone.
 
Yes, please accept that the evidence is not good enough to get this upgrade accepted by the staff and move on. Thank you.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Pritti especially went over this better than anyone.
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I already debunked her claims and clearly explained why a quilted universe should not be the standard regarding seperated space times. There is no reason to assume that seperate spaces which aren't reachable by regular means would share the same space time unless shown otherwise
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, please accept that the evidence is not good enough to get this upgrade accepted by the staff and move on. Thank you.
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How about "No" and look at the fact that your precious staff don't have the strongest arguments in regards of SEGA verses and take our word as fact since we provided very clear and concrete evidence for our upgrades that haven't been properly debunked?
 
Unless you guys debunk their universal size, I'm not seeing why this should get rejected. Unlike a certain other verse where trying to make a universe a 2-C sized structure would be nonsensical on our part, I see no reason why the Night Dimension can't be 2-B if the realms are universal in size.
 
So far people thinking that repeating their points again and again makes it a refute, so far Seed, Merlight and the rest arguments haven't been refuted except for "worlds mean many things" or similar things that requires more assumptions

Also the universe statment is for the universes the kids came from, not the entire verse, I don't know why you would assume so
 
They're not stated to have their own space-time, and the individual dream worlds aren't stated to be universe sized. Only that the entirety of Night Dimension is stated to be a universe based on the scans we're literally given. I also don't seen anything about the individual dream worlds exceeding anything beyond 4-A or 3-B sized. Also, this sca outright calls the world 3-dimensional.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
They're not stated to have their own space-time, and the individual dream worlds aren't stated to be universe sized. Only that the entirety of Night Dimension is stated to be a universe based on the scans we're literally given. I also don't seen anything about the individual dream worlds exceeding anything beyond 4-A or 3-B sized. Also, thus sca outright calls the world 3-dimensional.
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Nah B, I already have shown that the 3D Dimensional Envionment Refers To Either The Material World Or? The Game Mechanics Via Context And Interview
 
ShakeResounding said:
Somebody delete the comment up above. I might've blown up a tiny but, and I apologize for that, but this is where the drama ends. This is where we stop, because it is only goung to be worse if this continues.
Everybody stay focused on the topic at hand.
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I did it
 
DDM, this was already stated bruh, the real world was the one stated to be universe, that's like Seed's main point, don't try to change what he said

Like we don't need to "see" things when they are clear and have evidence, things don't need to be said when implications exist, nor we assume a quilted universe by default with no proof if the realms are universe

I see two main arguments against this, Priiti's of the quilted universe since she admited that each dream is probaly 3-A, and AKM sama that they aren't quilted but not universes, both of those can't be trie at the same time, so stick with one counter argument

The fact that each has been called world in setences where universes were also called world and each dream is bigger than a planet or things called world than universe is a very valid assumption that I still haven't seen a refute outside of world means alot

Also don't twist Imagine's evidence, he literaly explained what that meant and refuted that similar claim
 
Sera EX said:
Unless you guys debunk their universal size, I'm not seeing why this should get rejected. Unlike a certain other verse where trying to make a universe a 2-C sized structure would be nonsensical on our part, I see no reason why the Night Dimension can't be 2-B if the realms are universal in size.
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K. So you agree?
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Sera EX said:
Unless you guys debunk their universal size, I'm not seeing why this should get rejected. Unlike a certain other verse where trying to make a universe a 2-C sized structure would be nonsensical on our part, I see no reason why the Night Dimension can't be 2-B if the realms are universal in size.
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K. So you agree?
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I'd say Neutral, but in stance of the argument, we're pretty much Brad, Chad, Enrique, Tyrone, Tyler, Kevin, Chad, Umar and Usher here.
 
IIRC, someone linked a video showing that they are universe-sized.

If they aren't universal-sized, than whether or not they are a separate time-space is irrelevant. It's on the Tier System page (it used to be High 3-A but we got rid of that). I'm starting to think it may have been a mistake but that's beside the point. That means if they're only 3-B sized, whether or not they are separate time-spaces is irrelevant.

While Dormammu has multiple reasons for his 2-A rating, one of them is in fact sustaining the Dark Dimension, which is a metaphysical realm said to be made up of "worlds beyond measure". Not only is that not 2-A (it's 2-B at most) but it's in the same ballpark as this.

The Underworld in Saint Seiya is considered 2-C because each realm that's part of it is universal in size. The Hyperdimension for example is made up of billions of galaxies. Granted, each realm was also stated to be beyond space-time.

Basically the only thing that matters here is the realms' size, not whether or not they are temporally disconnected since that's hardly able to be proven under most circumstances. And Tier 2 isn't that hard to get.

On the opposite end, the default size of a universe is 3-A. That includes other realms considered to be universal in size. That's why the Night Dimension is currently considered likely 3-A and not likely Low 2-C. Considering the changes to the system, it's unlikely that multiple 3-A realms actually can be considered 2-C and above without further context like in Saint Seiya. Pritti is absolutely correct that the realms being stated as "beyond space time" helps significantly, as it tells us the realms are temporally disconnected from the ordinary universe. Again, evidence that they are themselves temporally disconnected doesn't need to be significant, it just needs to believable enough that they aren't all the exact same realm stretched for infinity (something has to separate them).

So in summary:

Universe-sized realms only need to be separated from the ordinary universe(s) to be considered their own universe. They do not need to be proven to be spatio-temporally disconnected from each other. If they do, we have a problem with our standards because many verses got by without this ridiculously strict requirement. Something simply needs to be separating the realms themselves. It can be a dimensional gate or a portal, as long they aren't literally part of the same realm stretched across infinite light-years.

However, on the flip side, the base size of a universe-sized realm is the size of the observable universe. So unless it is outside the time-space of the regular universe(s), it will not be considered enough to pass as Low 2-C equivocal (meaning you won't get 2-C and up). Remember that alternate universes are 2-C because it's a multitude of Low 2-C, not 3-A (this is mostly why Universe 7 is not 2-C sized). The only argument I care about is the size of the individual realms because that's the argument that affects our wiki standards.
 
None of the videos described dream worlds as Universe sized, there were videos showing starry skies, and then someone uploaded an image on Imgur showing some disk shaped objects that were shaped like galaxies. They aren't stated to be infinite in size, nor were the stated to be "Beyond measure". And actually, a Universe having multiple Universe sized afterlifes doesn't make something beyond Low 2-C. Our system is based on the universes being alternate timelines.

And perhaps there are some verses that may need a downgrade, but a lot of verses on my mind actually do have other requirements beyond the context that is here. Plus, I need to point out that I can also think of verses that have more elaborate and specific context that have not been accepted as universes. Anyway, at best; only the awakened world and the entirety of Night Dimension are called universes. Not any of the individual dream worlds within it. And yes, Pritti is absolutely right.

Also, I think AKM Sama is actually confused what "Quilted Multiverse" means. Wikipedia says it only works when it's infinite in size, but that's not quite true. Also, wikipedia isn't the most credible source. Quilted Multiverse simply means multiple bodies of space within a single Space-Time Continuum. Thus it's more like a big universe rather than a multiverse.
 
You missed the part when I directly said the universe-sized realm has to be completely disconnected from the universe. Most afterlife realms are directly connected to their universes.

And not every verse that's 2-C and up are so due to alternate timelines. The Dark Dimension is not an alternate timeline, it's an alternate dimension. Marvel makes the distinction between alternate timelines, alternate universes, and alternate dimensions and all can be considered universes in the right context. This is why their size matters.
 
Speaking of which, it is stated that the Night Dimension exists "Next to our 3 dimensional world" in that one scan I should point out. If it's parallel to a 3-D Universe, it would only apply as 3-A similar to what Bayonetta was accepted as. And even if it was a parallel universe, it would simply be 2-C at best; but 3-A is still more reliable.
 
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