NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

[Pritti]

@Gilead

That's not what I said, but to prevent myself from confusing you any further, I'll just drop that bit.

 

[Sera_EX]

But in Dormammu's case the Dark Dimension isn't his sole justification for a 2-A rating anyway.

Fair enough. I just have a feeling the non-supporters are being a little dishonest with how other verses have clearly gotten 2-C, 2-B, or even 2-A ratings with similar justifications. So apparently it's something not inherent in NiGHTS itself, but in our standards.

 

[Pritti]

That's also fair.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Gilead
That's not what I said, but to prevent myself from confusing you any further, I'll just drop that bit.

Maybe instead explain yourself a bit more so I won't get confused. Elaborate more in what you mean, since I say that the multiversal standard are 3+1 dimensional universes with seperared space-time continuums, while you say it isn't from what I understood.

 

[Theuser789]

Also the interview Imagine posted also supports against the quilted universe assumption as well

"Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?"

Outright says the dreams copy every detail of reality. If the reality they're copying is a universe with a space-time continuum, then that makes every dream a universe with their own space-time continuum, and thus it's 2-B. That's pretty blatant shit.

 

[Corgi_the_Gen_Z_God]

But in Dormammu's case the Dark Dimension isn't his sole justification for a 2-A rating anyway.
Fair enough. I just have a feeling the non-supporters are being a little dishonest with how other verses have clearly gotten 2-C, 2-B, or even 2-A ratings with similar justifications. So apparently it's something not inherent in NiGHTS itself, but in our standards.

Oh you're so right on the money, but still missing a word

 

[Theuser789]

Source on the interview btw http://shmuplations.com/nights/, I think with this and all the other proof it's enough for 2-B

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Source on the interview btw http://shmuplations.com/nights/, I think with this and all the other proof it's enough for 2-B

ayyy yo I posted that here first, put some respect on my name

 

[Corgi_the_Gen_Z_God]

He posted it again so other first time members can see it and appreciate it as fact.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

oh okay then

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima

I'm guessing we might have to create a discussion for Dream Worlds at some point. They're becoming as problematic as timeless voids.

Agreed. Feel free to create a staff discussion for this if you wish.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

I do not think that Dormammu is scaled from the size of the Dark Dimension, but I do not remember so well.

 

[Antvasima]

Source on the interview btw http://shmuplations.com/nights/, I think with this and all the other proof it's enough for 2-B

@Sera, Pritti, Medeus, and AKM

Would you be willing to evaluate this?

 

[Theuser789]

ayyy yo I posted that here first, put some respect on my name

I did say that you posted it first, I just reposted to focus on this nice find

 

[Pritti]

Maybe instead explain yourself a bit more so I won't get confused. Elaborate more in what you mean, since I say that the multiversal standard are 3+1 dimensional universes with seperared space-time continuums, while you say it isn't from what I understood.

I have to go to bed, I have class in the morning. Plus, I don't want to derail this thread with a physics lecture.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. I can wait. No pressure

2. You can write me on my wall so it wouldn't derail the thread

 

[Sera_EX]

@Ant

I'm not here for that, I'm only here because it seems there's a disagreement about our standards for Tier 2 (regarding other tealms or dimensions). I don't care about the revision itself, I'm not touching any Sonic-related revision anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Okay. No problem.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

@Ant
I'm not here for that, I'm only here because it seems there's a disagreement about our standards for Tier 2 (regarding other tealms or dimensions). I don't care about the revision itself, I'm not touching any Sonic-related revision anymore.

I do wish you still went in sonic revisions, your thoughts is pretty tame in comparison and much easier to deal with then other mods i've met.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

@User sorry laggy wifi

 

[Theuser789]

@User sorry laggy wifi

No problem

 

[ShakeResounding]

Source on the interview btw http://shmuplations.com/nights/, I think with this and all the other proof it's enough for 2-B

Just putting this on the spotlight again to avoid this being derailed.

 

[AKM sama]

What exactly am I looking at? The paragraphs quoted above don't have anything to do with the matter at hand!

 

[Theuser789]

Also the interview Imagine posted also supports against the quilted universe assumption as well

"Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?"

Outright says the dreams copy every detail of reality. If the reality they're copying is a universe with a space-time continuum, then that makes every dream a universe with their own space-time continuum, and thus it's 2-B. That's pretty blatant shit.

.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

What exactly am I looking at? The paragraphs quoted above don't have anything to do with the matter at hand!

we're now talking about scans and their qualifications. the derailment came from the opposers

 

[AKM sama]

"Outright says the dreams copy every detail of reality."

It doesn't say that. It says that the setting is realistic instead of being a fantasy world because normal people dream about normal stuff. How did you conclude that every dream world is a universe from that?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

"Outright says the dreams copy every detail of reality."
It doesn't say that. It says that the setting is realistic instead of being a fantasy world because normal people dream about normal stuff. How did you conclude that every dream world is a universe from that?

He said that because it was said that they'll recreate every detail of that reality in the dream world. They used the example of an Island, like that if a person dreams about a real-life (in their world) island, then in the dream world that Island would be recreated to its full details.

 

[Theuser789]

That is more evidence against the quilted universe assumption togheter with the other proof

"Dreams are usually closer to reality."

"Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo."

First off, what is reality? Reality is what is real. A universe is everything that exists, or is real.

Iizuka states they had to understand the whole thing before they can begin creating it and gives an island as an example. What it means is that the dreams copy reality to its last detail. Obviously, the reality they're copying is a universe so each dream is a universe.

 

[AKM sama]

Oh that? I never said anything about quilted multiverse. That works on the principle of an infinite universe with infinite space where infinite events occur in infinite hubble volumes and all that half-science-half-imaginary hypothetical shenanigans and quite frankly that would be massive reaching and completely baseless assumption to make.

The only thing I'm concerned about is the legitimacy of every dream world being a universe or whether every dream world is just a part of a single universe, given how the usage of the word "world" can result in both ways.

That piece of interview only tells us that the dream world is realistic as opposed to being a fantasy because normal people have normal dreams. It doesn't say the dream world copies the universe to every single detail. And reality in this context doesn't mean universe. It just means what's real and true, actuality.

 

[Corgi_the_Gen_Z_God]

"Outright says the dreams copy every detail of reality."
It doesn't say that. It says that the setting is realistic instead of being a fantasy world because normal people dream about normal stuff. How did you conclude that every dream world is a universe from that?

This is what Sera was trying to talk about earlier

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still agree with Pritti and AKM Sama, and looking at the article, I literally saw nothing about the individual dream worlds being universes or alternate realities. All they basically said was "Dreams becoming reality". Becoming reality =/= being turned into entire realities by default. There's a different between becoming the sea or individuals being turned into entire seas. Without more context, "Becoming reality" has becoming a piece of reality as the default meaning.

So in other words, I still see nothing worthy of 2-B.

 

[Theuser789]

This entire thread has been explaining that world means universe, ignoring all the arguments and arguing for things that requires way more mental gynastics is a no no

Izuka straight up talks about replicating the Island, it's just the artstyle is a gross undersatment, the context of everything would already imply that and alot of mental gynastics are happening because things are not being said directely and straight up ignoring arguments from the supporters

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Oh that? I never said anything about quilted multiverse. That works on the principle of an infinite universe with infinite space where infinite events occur in infinite hubble volumes and all that half-science-half-imaginary hypothetical shenanigans and quite frankly that would be massive reaching and completely baseless assumption to make.

The dreams doesn't need to be infinite to be seperated in a multiversal structure. You can have finitely sized universes with seperate space-time continuums and it would still be a multiverse

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Sorry @ImagineBreaker ... I have returned. We do have explicit examples of verses which are treated as Universes without direct statements. There just needs to be enough information to give the assumption they are whole universes. I see them being separate has been addressed so I won't go through that argument. But before I go through the trouble of collecting scans, there is something I need to run by the Admins/Mods in the thread :

@Mods The realm where Helen and Will come from, do you say it's a Universe or no ? If it's not in your opinions, then I have a lot more to prove. If you believe it is a Universe undoubtedly, then there is significantly less work needed to prove it's a universe.

 

[Sera_EX]

Dreams become reality in the Night Dimension. That's undeniably what it's saying. What else could it be talking about? The real world? That wouldn't make sense.

 

[Theuser789]

Dreams become realities in the Night Dimension. That's undeniably what it's saying. What else could it be talking about? The real world? That wouldn't make sense.

Is this directed towards who? Because I do agree with this, the point is the dream copied reality supporting the they are universes thingy

 

[Sera_EX]

All they basically said was "Dreams becoming reality". Becoming reality =/= being turned into entire realities by default. There's a different between becoming the sea or individuals being turned into entire seas. Without more context, "Becoming reality" has becoming a piece of reality as the default meaning.

^I was responding to this.

 

[Theuser789]

Oh ok then

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Sera I'm saying that "Dreams becoming Reality" alone is not enough to assume each and every dream is turned into an entire Universe. While "Alternate Reality" generally in context relates to "Alternate Universe", simply saying it becomes reality doesn't automatically it equate to it becoming a universe.

Context is important than.

 

[Sera_EX]

"Becoming reality" has becoming a piece of reality as the default meaning.

I do agree with this part though, I'm just wondering what he meant exactly.

Edit: Nvm. I saw his new post.