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NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Sera I'm saying that "Dreams becoming Reality" alone is not enough to assume each and every dream is turned into an entire Universe. While "Alternate Reality" generally in context relates to "Alternate Universe", simply saying it becomes reality doesn't automatically it equate to it becoming a universe.
Context is important than.
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Their reality is a universe, so becoming reality meaning that that they become universes. And since it was said that the dreams replicates reality down to the last detail, they would indeed be universes
 
"Becoming reality" has becoming a piece of reality as the default meaning."

So when Bender from Futurama Overclocked himself and said the entire universe, he's only a piece of the universe?

I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense and that's some sort of fallacy with it.
 
The reason I asked that is when Mr. Owl refers to the Realm Will & Helen come from, he refers to it as a "World" [They call it the Waking World at times but still refer to it as a "world" they come from] . In the comic book, which connects directly to the games' lore from NiGHTS into Dreams [which is the prequel to Nights: Journey of Dreams] , they refer to it as a Universe. So would this be enough proof or would it require more ?
 
@Corgi and Gilad, that has different context. If Bender literally said entire Universe, that would imply entire universe.

Anyway, reality just means Something that exists. It doesn't quite mean universe by default; like a lot of words, it has multiple definitions. If "All Reality" or "Entire Reality" is used, then it means Universe or something beyond that depending on the verse. And "Alternate Reality" usually means "Alternate Universe" but simply the word "Reality" as a singular word doesn't generally mean Universes.
 
If it's consistently used and the context means "universe" that should be enough. No need to circlejerk around it and do mental gymnastics over something as simple and straightforward like this.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
@Corgi and Gilad, that has different context. If Bender literally saÔü╣id entire Universe, that would imply entire universe.
Anyway, reality just means Something that exists. It doesn't quite mean universe by default; like a lot of words, it has multiple definitions. If "All Reality" or "Entire Reality" is used, then it means Universe or something beyond that depending on the verse. And "Alternate Reality" usually means "Alternate Universe" but simply the word "Reality" as a singular word doesn't generally mean Universes.
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So what does it mean if not universe? The dreams were already shown from scans to be at least 3-B in size, so saying that they're universes is not that of a strech.

Also, again, the reality is a universe. They don't say "become a fraction of reality", as that would make no sense
 
Except context implies universe in this and it requires more assumptions otherwise

Yes it doesn't necessarily mean that but the context and easiest awser would be universe, also Seed made a good point that is being ignored right now
 
Again, the word "Universe" was used in the context that the entirety of NiGHTS' world is a Universe based on the scan given. Not that any of the individual dream worlds are universes. And that dictionary definition once again holds no weight on the matter. It's not using enough context to mean universe.
 
DDM, think about what makes the least assumptions and logical sense then lowballing for lowball, half of your post literaly doesn't make sense, universe is clearly from the universe of the kids, not the dream world, yet in the same games they use word, the dicionary literaly says universe and all existance, this is a argument from ignorance
 
Because many other verses brought up here actually have different context and/or other sources outside of this. With some others examples actually not quite holding up.

Anyway, circular arguments are not getting anywhere, and most of the staff agree with me, Pritti, and AKM Sama.
 
@Corgi Please don't do that. Mr.Owl directly states that the real world where Helen and Will come from, is referring to the real world , and the NiGHTS comics [which directly link to the story told in the games and offer the story not told in the games, not to mention directly referencing Wiseman's story prior to being Wizeman being a Dreamer , which is referred to in the games to tie into said comic] refer to the real world as a "whole Universe " [as in context he always has control over the dream world so the only logical thing he's referring to is the real world] and as "reality multiple times with reality likely meaning the waking world in both cases of it being mentioned ". They also directly refer to the realm Will and Helen are from as a "world " qutie a few times. This would mean they in implication are likely "world" as defined in NiGHTS can be interchangeable with "Universe" / "Reality".
 
This also has, Sera point about standard is completely right because at this point things are accepted in completely diferent ways than others haven't because of this lack
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Anyway, circular arguments are not getting anywhere, and most of the staff agree with me, Pritti, and AKM Sama.
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This is literaly appealing to authority which is a gigantic fallacy, don't fall in this please
 
"Becuase it's Sonic". Those types of responses will very likely lead into some sort of argument that could get this thread closed prematurely. And also these types of comments are highly assumptuous without anything to support it other than perhaps potential coincidences. Please don't bring such to this thread and let's debate this in a structured manner.
 
I saw that statement, and once again. Wizemon shaping "The Whole Universe" implies it's including the Real World and the Dream Worlds". There is no "The Dream Worlds mirror the Real World in every aspect" statement. Zelda and Castlavania don't have a bunch of 2-C characters based on the same context. Such as Castlevania characters like Dracula creating multiple "Quantum Spaces" or Yuga merging "The Light World and the world containing Lorule". Metroid also doesn't have multiversal characters despite the existence of "Parallel dimensions" or "Residents of Aether existing across two parallel universes". Same with the existence of the "Infinity Void".

There are plenty of examples that have the same context as this and possibly even more/better, and were not accepted as multiverses.
 
It isn't false appeal to authority, it is how the wiki fundamentally functions. The staff try to evaluate as best as the can whether or not revisions are acceptable according to our standards, and some of the Sonic fans seem to have an ongoing tendency to not accept this and drag out discussions considerably longer than necessary, despite that nothing will happen and it only wastes the time of everybody involved, which prevents the staff from helping out with other issues. I would appreciate if this tendency could stop and the thread be closed. Thank you.
 
I never said it was a false appeal to authority, I said it was a actual appeal to authority, which is, saying more staff agrees with me so thread over is a appeal to authority in it's defintion and this is no insult, I even said to not do this again

People don't like their effort being wasted by a staff saying no with not good arguments, thus they rather argue more unitl a consessus is made, and the reasons have been laud out more, is not draggging out but respecting a effort, and generalizing as "Sonic fans" isn't good because this applys to anything, not Sonic, not Nights, nobody

Here's the definition of appeal to authority "Description: Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered." Saying more staff agrees so I am right is appeal to authority in it's definition
 
Mephistus basically summed up my point. What I'm mainly trying to say is that the real/waking world they come from was compared to the dream worlds as comparable , in which the real world was already stated in this thread to likely be a whole universe based on what i think Medeus said about the real world previously.

It's why I asked if the staff thought the waking world was a Universe. Because if it was then it should be easy to explain that worlds do mean universes in this context because they were compared in such.
 
Ant, this is nights, not sonic, and that is essentially attacking the character of the people arguing in favor of the upgrade being bias and not the arguements themselves.
 
There are some Sonic fans that seem to keep disrespecting our conventions over and over regarding this, and it is very tiresome as we constantly have many tasks to deal with, and they demand far more than their fair share of our time and effort by dragging out discussions for far longer than they should.

If you are going to be a part of this community you will have to adapt to and respect how it fundamentally works.
 
If I'm putting "another" in front of a word, the qualities of the first word extend to the second word in context. Their universe in context is the first word in what Mr. Owl refers to from where the visitors come from as 2nd seed has linked. The human characters referring to their individual realms as another world as well clarifies this comparison.
 
And I do respect it, why I make CRTs and stuff intead of vandalism or trolling or going to other websites, honestely "Sonic fans" is a broud term that doesn't even mean much because of how many people are Sonic fans with their own thoughts

It's not really draggging, it's just reasons aren't laid out and the same staff evaluate it and people want better reasons to be rejected, what would even be the point of regular users if their thread gets closed because the same admins say no without a argumentation? I simply just want a thread to be actualy argued by multiple people before closing, if this is so problesome let others deal with it then the same, that's what I think at least
 
The point is that our system, which has worked very well for us, is that the most highly trusted members are promoted to staff, and then do their best to help out with evaluating content revision threads, in order to avoid general chaos, and according to our regular standards the evidence here is not sufficient to accept the upgrade that you wish for. It happens. I have been outvoted many times over the years as well, but try to not make such a big deal of it.
 
I'm writing up a lengthy response. And it's mostly intended to ease up the drama on both sides. But there will be debates to the thread as well.
 
Antvasima said:
The point is that our system, which has worked very well for us, is that the most highly trusted members are promoted to staff, and then do their best to help out with evaluating content revision threads, in order to avoid general chaos, and according to our regular standards the evidence here is not sufficient to accept the upgrade that you wish for. It happens. I have been outvoted many times over the years as well, but try to not make such a big deal of it.
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Most, if not all, of the supporters here do respect the staff and the tiering system, but the supporters wants better reasons for the thread to be rejected.

Also, even if I'm outvoted, it still doesn't mean that I won't continute trying to debate and prove my point, these two thing doesn't contradict each other.
 
I know that, it's just that I don't think a thread should be closed pre maturaly, right now Seed and Mephisto are making new points, and closing the thread right now would be direspect to their efforts, I don't mind something being rejected,but only after it has been discussed than mods saying no, they are needed to control this place but simply saying no shouldn't be enough for thread closure, but the arguments being refuted and no new points being brought over in favor of it, which hasn't happened yet
 
Antvasima said:
There are some Sonic fans that seem to keep disrespecting our conventions over and over regarding this, and it is very tiresome as we constantly have many tasks to deal with, and they demand far more than their fair share of our time and effort by dragging out discussions for far longer than they should.
If you are going to be a part of this community you will have to adapt to and respect how it fundamentally works.
Click to expand...
Or just update the checks and balances. We Sonic fans don't wanna drag this out longer than it should either but since certain staff members want to argue against it without any good arguments to combat them along with their ignorance.
 
I agree. I don't mind being outvoted or having my argument rejected, but like User said, only after it had been disscussed and all the points have been made and were proved or disputed
 
Both sides act like "possibly", "likely", "at least", and "at most" don't exist. Stop trying to be so black and white about everything.
 
Additionally, this "Sonic fan" comment is unnecessary. Do you know why these threads go on for so long, Antvasima? Because only on Sonic threads are things turned upside-down and ****** over (excuse the language). Be it from the fault of staff or the attitude of toxic regular users, it isn't just the blue names. So don't act as if the staff here are perfect. You're doing absolutely nothing for this thread except giving the potential for increased hostility.

Sera was right on the nose about the standards being ****** sideways with how stuff like this is treated. Other verses have had their cosmologies upped to 2-C/B/A on much less, apparently, but only now does this 100% clarity of ststements matter. Basically, if you're going to argue what's here isn't enough, maybe check your standards as a whole.

Nobody take this to heart. I mean no disrespect for what I say, nor am I attempting to attack anyone.
 
First of all, this thread wasn't even initially supposed to be about Sonic; it was about NiGHTS. That being said, the OP added in some Sonic related topics and even brought up possible connections so it ended up becoming labeled as "Sonic thread". But the fact remains is that an overwhelming amount of Sonic supporters got involved and are currently using this as a tool upgrade Sonic to 2-B. I agree it's best to avoid discussing the unhealthy reputation however.

Anyway, "Appeal to Authority" is never a right accusation. Even other Admins have different ideals from each other and "Divided staff" has admittedly always been an occurring problem in the wiki. It goes without saying that typical Vs debaters simply care more about their characters and/or favorite verses being treated as stronger than any opposing characters verses then they do about legitimate accuracy. I'm not calling out any individual names of anyone pushing for this; and yes, even staff members have also been guilty of this from time to time. But "for the most part," the staff do have the most experience and the best sense of judgement. Which is what we're trying to do right now; we're simply looking up the scans and the context bit by bit to see if it truly meats the guidelines.

Also, I don't want to sound as harsh or snarky as someone like Matt or Kepekley have put it, but there is a sad truth that the communities' overgrowth in quantity is making it much harder to maintain the quality control. I know for certain that Google+ getting shut down and a few extra level headed staff members such as Kavpeny, Azathoth, and Reppuzan retiring are notable examples of events leading to quantity over quality direction. And we don't have any ill will towards any fanbases in particular. But the fact remains is that multiple fanbases are legitimately making the staff's jobs harder. Just because an argument is "More constructive" or "More elaborate" doesn't mean it's in the more right. An OP could be 30 paragraphs long and contains a combination of dozens of scans as well as back ups by multiple dictionary definitions, but that doesn't ultimately make the arguments hold up. Because even comments like that can be taken apart by comments no more than 1 or 2 paragraphs clarifying that context here doesn't mean that, or the scans don't line up with the proposals. And yes, I'm glad a few supporters like Gilad, Seed and Imagine are well behaved. And also just because some users aren't "malicious" per say doesn't mean they aren't obnoxious. Not going to call out individuals per say, but just some notes.

Anyway, we already addressed the same repeated arguments. AKM Sama and I have both went over the idea of "Worlds" not being enough to qualify as meaning Universe. And the only use of the word "Universe" we found uses the context to basically say the entirety of the real world and the dream world is the universe. And Reality in context I already explained the VSBW's definition of reality when used in context. The use of the word Reality here simply doesn't line up with meaning alternate universes but simply part of the universe. Just because my bedroom is reality, doesn't mean bedroom is a universe.

For the conclusion, I find the conclusion that NiGHTS is simply 3-A.
 
Antvasima said:
There are some Sonic fans that seem to keep disrespecting our conventions over and over regarding this, and it is very tiresome as we constantly have many tasks to deal with, and they demand far more than their fair share of our time and effort by dragging out discussions for far longer than they should.
If you are going to be a part of this community you will have to adapt to and respect how it fundamentally works.
Click to expand...
I see where you're coming from, I've defended the staff when I saw the wrongs done, and I feel sorry they have to deal with such sonic people to begin with. but as Seed, Mephistus, User and surprisingly Corgi (someone I dislike) and Myself said and brought up, this is little to do with quality content of being valid/invalid but more of a bias problem that I see happens when dealing with the likes of sonic and marvel, things are less likely to through because it's not favorable to them, it's taking so much unnecessary effort and time wasting that would've been ringing right through if it had been another franchise, another jest is that this NiGHTS Into Dreams Not Sonic The Hedgehog (they are connected). this is lack of courtesy and respeect. My Job as A Neutral Supporter of my chosen series is to look at bost regimens of supporters and opponents and see which arguements and contents is better whether it's point level sonic or tier 0 whether I consider it absolute downplay, Perfectly fine or Wank We have to be considerate to every assertion. and I don't see that here, we need organization and courtesy.
 
Sera EX said:
Both sides act like "possibly", "likely", "at least", and "at most" don't exist. Stop trying to be so black and white about everything.
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I wouln't mind a possibly 2-B at all
 
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