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NiGHTS 2-B Upgrade

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
I didn't quite see a galaxy in the second video unless you can screen shot the specific image on Imgur and point to where it is. Anyway the third paragraph in this sca still says it like this.
Nights is set in the world of dreams. Not dreams themselves, or the all the levels would keep changing location all the time and you'd never be able to tell what's going on. And just as you'd be about to complete it, you'd wake up. No, Nights is set in the actual plane of dreams called the Night dimension. According to Sonic Team's thinking this is a dimension that exists close to our corporal three-dimensional environment. It has, they say, no shape. Sega are taking their tip from German Parapsychologist Freidrich Hoist's text "Traum", which states Night Dimension is shaped by the constantly shifting input of the collective human conscious (or unconscious that would be) present.

Based on this very text, Sonic Team is simply comparing the entirety of Night Dimension to the Universe. Which could make it 3-A or Low 2-C depending on context. And effecting both dreams and reality could still be 2-C, which would still be an upgrade. But not seeing anything worthy of 2-B.
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the interviews debunk those claims, 3D = Plane or game mechanics
 
It's not twisting, it's going by what's literally spelled out for us. And "3-Dimensions" wasn't the whole basis, the basis was just only Night Dimension has proof to be universes. And the other thread is still in discussion; it's still agreed that having a few galaxies and not quite got universe or space-time isn't enough to be a universe but simply 3-B. Countless or innumerable galaxies would imply universes, but not a few. DarkGrath was the one who said having 5 or 10 galaxies without context of being a universe such as simply being called a world or dimension would simply be 3-B.
 
Yes it is, you are talking a simple setence and twisted to fit your weird vision when the own statment says that the dreams are separated from Nights dimension, so supporting the point harder, if literaly two universes are called world in the game in the same context as everything then 2-B

DDM, I can read the thread and that wasn't said and the person who made it straight up said that if the galaxies here are confirmed then the dream worlds are universes, there's literaly all there's to do and multiple galaxies you are ignoring were posted, don't drag this further then it needs, don't look at the tier but what makes the least assumptions
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It's not twisting, it's going by what's literally spelled out for us. And "3-Dimensions" wasn't the whole basis, the basis was just only Night Dimension has proof to be universes. And the other thread is still in discussion; it's still agreed that having a few galaxies and not quite got universe or space-time isn't enough to be a universe but simply 3-B. Countless or innumerable galaxies would imply universes, but not a few.
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wasn't it a disc quatero spiral shaped universe?
 
I literally copy and pasted what was said in the scan; being separated isn't enough to call them universes unless it says "Completely seperated" size is also important. And being called "World" isn't enough context at all.
 
That was not my point at all, you did copy paste but completely misunderstand it, my point is that both universes are called world in same context as dreams, they have multiple galaxies show which other staff agreed was legit would already make it universes and 2-b, at this point is necessary a higher leap of logic to not accept universes, just lowball for lowballing sake instead of what requires least , which arguments for even the whole quilted thing haven't even been provided, and exact wording isn't needed when it's really clearly authors usualy don't sponfeed their vierwers on this when it's not the focus

Don't strawman me, I know simply using world isn't enough, but ignoring why world is universe and all it's arguments which even some staff agreed is a actual argument is just arguing from ignorance right now
 
Theuser789 said:
That was not my point at all, you did copy paste but completely misunderstand it, my point is that both universes are called world in same context as dreams, they have multiple galaxies show which other staff agreed was legit would already make it universes and 2-b, at this point is necessary a higher leap of logic to not accept universes, just lowball for lowballing sake instead of what requires least , which arguments for even the whole quilted thing haven't even been provided, and exact wording isn't needed when it's really clearly authors usualy don't sponfeed their vierwers on this when it's not the focus
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In addition to what @User said, there's also something that's called "inferring", which is to derive by reasoning, and conclude or judge from premises or evidence, especially when the evidences are really obvious with their meaning of the worlds being seperated universes.

Also, I disproved the "quilted universes" claim for the worlds
 
you guys act like NiGHTS dimension is the only wave here with that said the NiGHTS dimension is also just one of the dreams residing in the plane of dreams of the collective unconscious and has a quatero spiral disc shaped universall structure, along with the realm of being which would quite quickly equal 2-B. dreams are indicated to be worlds while NiGHTS has made doors and used his unique abilities to access them, the games infer they run parallel, all the while we forget the realm of being and the plane of dreams which is much larger and contains all sorts of Dreams/Worlds including NiGHTS. https://ia800302.us.archive.org/Boo...e_007_-_may_1996_UK_0030.jp2&scale=1&rotate=0

"If any game can repeat Sonic's track record, this must be it - Team Sonic's quest to re-create the feeling of flight experienced in dreams and in space. - Nights as set in the world of dreams. Not dreams themselves, or the all the levels would keep changing location all the time and you'd never be able to tell what's going on. And just as you were about to complete it you'd wake. Nights is set in the actual plane of dreams, called the NiGHTS dimension."

NiGHTS dimension is a Dream A part of an entire wave of dreams, so you see NiGHTS dimension having the assets of a Universe and A World Right? each dream create dimensions just like it in the plane of dreams and NiGHTS isn't the only one.

and a funny light joke I should add, Yuji Naka said NiGHTS and the worlds come from us, What if we decided to dream a 2-B Sized Universe Or Multiverse hmmm? even if you dreamed otherwise you'd just be adding to the collection as in Journey Of Dreams it's said all dreams support world's like NiGHTS Dimension (this is a joke)

—What were some of the challenges of creating this "dream world" ?
Naka: Well, the very first designs that Oshima drew were very different from where we ended up. He interpreted the theme in a more fantastic way, a fantasy world of dreams. When I saw that, I told him that no one really has dreams like that. Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious. Everyone dreams, so I said let's try and create a more natural image, something closer to the dreams we all have. The world of NiGHTS (in this game at least) derives from that way of thinking.

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.

Nidcom: NiGHTS is considered to be one the most magical, inspiring and mischievous characters Sonic Team ever created, continuing on through dreams long after the game has been won. Has NiGHTS ever appeared in your own dreams?


Yuji Naka: Of course. NiGHTS came from your dreams too. Being so, NiGHTS will keep living for a long time.

this also means those dreams are universes as well.

with all the nitpicking aside it's clear the verse is at least 2-B, clear as day.
 
If there are any additional reasons for denying 2-B, it might need to be broight up now.

Otherwise, this thread is just about finished.
 
The 2nd Existential Seed said:
@AKM "Another world" refers to the comparison between the regular universe and Helen's/Will 's Dream worlds. So world could be used as an comparison there. Now, whether the dreams within Helen's / Will's compensate as realities due to them also being compared to the regular universe by Mr.Owl later on is a whole different argument. But, here they are comparing Helen's/Will's dream world in comparison to the regular universe. So I believe your first part of that is safer than the second IMO.
Click to expand...
That's fair. However, a counter argument to that point and the only other thing bugging me would be the writer directly comparing the entire Night dimension to the regular universe and saying that its traits are closer to the regular universe. Which would make the second option more probable. And that is what I believe Medeus was also trying to say.
 
I don't really think that debunks anything because the interviews also compared the dreams and it's traits to reality and on Medeus quote they also aren't the same, so it doesn't really debunk anything, which makes the first opition safer
 
@AKM sama Like, this is also via word of god too from the official website:

"Nightopians are carefree, happy inhabitants of Nightopia. They're born every time balls of light (called Ideya) collide. The sole reason for their existence is to have fun. Because they are incapable of doing anything else, they have no need to work together or to cooperate towards a common goal. As a result, they have no leader, and no language. What they do have, is the ability to see the consciousness of each visitor (dreamers from our world), through Ideya. When visitors arrive, the Nightopians can see their consciousness and recreate the happy world that is hidden deep inside. They're why Nightopians, who don't have the capacity for intelligent thought, can sing, dance, and even go fishing."

That the Night Dimension is called a universe (via a commercial of all things) shouldn't make it one if its consisting of multiple worlds of what they call the singular, separate dimension humans come from as a world; which is consistent with the character statements here utilizing the comparable term "another world" in respect to Helen's dream or Will's dream and the separate dimension (being called a universe in the comics) in which the kids come from.

Super Paper Mario having characters use "universe" (and heck the guidebook too!) to refer to their entire multiverse structure is how egregious that comparison is here, off the top of my head for an offender of how this sort of example happens in fiction commonly.

That the entire cosmology is at least 2-B would be based upon the human population that sleeps and dreams; estimated in the billions I'm going to say by when the date the game came out (December 13, 2007) and that it is a fictional version of our universe with a copy amount for its population of humans.

https://www.prb.org/2007worldpopulationdatasheet/

According to this source that'd be 6.6 billion humans alive for an order of magnitude estimate, given that there would be ~6.6 billion universes making up their cosmology to match for each dreamer/Visitor; far above the minimum of 1001 universes to hit 2-B lol.
 
Glitch Trainer MangleMan25 said:
Hello. I'd like to propose an upgrade for NiGHTS to 2-B alongside the current thread that ran and is still progressing elsewhere regarding a similar 2-B upgrade for Super Sonic.

NiGHTS's Dream World, similarly to Maginaryworld, forms a universe each time a person dreams. Nightopians, who're notably weaker than NiGHTS, can form universes.

https://nid.fandom.com/wiki/Nightopians#NiGHTS_into_Dreams

And these different dreams are established as separate parallel realities.

https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=4439

At the same time, Wizeman said he could destroy all of this AND he created Nightmare, which contains every nightmare ever dreamed as a separate reality.

https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=1h37m https://youtu.be/r_NnCkXt7KQ?t=2532


Long story short, I say it's only fair to have him in this tier (2-B) now provided this info really showing how vast the Dream World really is, instead of using some commercial to claim it as simply a universe in size.
Click to expand...
OP had already adreesed the whole only Nighttopia is called a universe thing already, so not a new point
 
We need to reach a conclusion soon, as this thread is running out of posts.
 
Going to clarify some details, then I'll make my decision. Then I'll still hold on to my thoughts, but fine with some conditional compromises.

First of all, no one is saying "Night Dimension being called a universe" is the sole reason it can't be a multiverse. I'm well aware of Tier 1 structured cosmologies being simply called universes. However, the point is, is that the entirety of Night Dimension is the only thing that has enough context to be a Universe. The individual Dream Worlds within the Night Dimension are simply called "Worlds" which isn't quite enough to mean Universe. Looking at the context, it said having a lot of galaxies and either having a showing or statement of time working differently does generally qualify as Universe even if not stated. And if a realm is stated to be a Universe, then it qualifies as a Universe even if it simply has a starry sky or a galaxy. But being called a "World", "Realm", or "Dimension", and not quite Universe while having a few galaxies would simply be 3-B. 3-B sized pocket realities do exist.

Second, I'm once again addressing this simply because it was brought up without elaborate context. Yes, Mario does use the word Universe to describe the cosmology, but "The Universe" was also used to describe individual cosmologies. World 4 from Super Paper Mario alone was called "Dai Uchu" in the Japanese version. And on top of that, it also had multiple statements of being Infinite or Endless in size. And obviously, the other "Dimensions" are clearly parallel to it. Including Sammer Kingdom/World 6, which the Prima Guide did mention its destruction was that of a Space-Time Destruction. So, the Dimensions in Mario have more than enough proof to be alternate timelines thus qualifying as a multiverse. Same with the Dream Depot, Future Dream alone was stated to be "The Universe" or that mirrors "The Universe" in every aspect. Combined with the fact that all Dream Worlds are parallel. So it once again as more than enough context of Dream Worlds = Universes. And for further proof, Mario & Luigi Dream Team also have a more statements about the existence of countless/innumerable dreams as well as the Dream worlds being bodies of space. And Super Mario RPG does outright describe Dreams as "Alternate Realities" which we do have confirmation that the Dream World Culex was born in is indeed an alternate Timeline. And I don't need to mention the fact that Mario's cosmology is always expanding with Dream Worlds stating to be born every single day, as well as the fact that even animals, insects and plants in the Mario multiverse have can have dreams every day, as well inanimate objects like, planets, stars, galaxies, and clouds in the Mario multiverse being sentient. Or even characters from other Dream Worlds and the Afterlife also sleep and have dreams every day thus giving birth to more Dream Worlds. And Color Splash makes mention that even atoms and molecules in the Mario multiverse are sentient, so the number of universes is super vast.

But with all that out of the way and going back to the main topic for Nights context; here's what I see for the Night Dimension cosmology. Night Dimension does have a Universe statement, which proves the entirety of Night Dimension is indeed a Universe or above. And that it's parallel to the Real World, which can be 3-A to 2-C depending on context. But as for individual Dream Worlds, if they have context to be Universes, then 7 billion universes would be 2-B. But let's look at the Individual Dream Worlds with in it.

We do see that some of the Dream Worlds or at least one has a few galaxies with in it. But they're not stated to be universes or that they mirror the real world, only the whole Night Dimension is. Unlike a certain other verse where even individual dream worlds have at least one or two Dream Worlds mirroring the Universe. I also do not see where they have different timelines. All I saw was "You will search in the sea of darkness forever" as linked in the video. Which doesn't mean Infinite amount of time, it just means he's never going to wake up, thus the equivalent of being in a coma IRL. Or eventually die in their sleep IRL. We don't use the "Search in the darkness forever" as the equivalent of literal time being forever. So in other worlds, I still have doubts about the cosmology being 2-B. I also looked up the interview, and it simply said "The World of Dreams" mirroring the "Waking World" similar to the Island coming to life as his example.

I don't mind Sera's suggestion one bit, so if Sera really thinks At least Low 2-C possibly 2-B is the best suggestion. So be it, but I personally still think at least 3-A, possibly 2-C or just plain 2-C is the most accurate. I know Matt or Pritti hasn't commented in a while, but willing to here what the rest of the staff think before the conclusion.

Also need to go to work IRL.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
We do see that some of the Dream Worlds or at least one has a few galaxies with in it. But they're not stated to be universes or that they mirror the real world, only the whole Night Dimension is.
Click to expand...
Mephistus said:
"What they do have, is the ability to see the consciousness of each visitor (dreamers from our world), through Ideya. When visitors arrive, the Nightopians can see their consciousness and recreate the happy world that is hidden deep inside. They're why Nightopians, who don't have the capacity for intelligent thought, can sing, dance, and even go fishing."

That the Night Dimension is called a universe (via a commercial of all things) shouldn't make it one if its consisting of multiple worlds of what they call the singular, separate dimension humans come from as a world; which is consistent with the character statements here utilizing the comparable term "another world" in respect to Helen's dream or Will's dream and the separate dimension (being called a universe in the comics) in which the kids come from.
Click to expand...
They're saying "world", not "planet".
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
We do see that some of the Dream Worlds or at least one has a few galaxies with in it. But they're not stated to be universes or that they mirror the real world, only the whole Night Dimension is. Unlike a certain other verse where even individual dream worlds have at least one or two Dream Worlds mirroring the Universe. I also do not see where they have different timelines. All I saw was "You will search in the sea of darkness forever" as linked in the video. Which doesn't mean Infinite amount of time, it just means he's never going to wake up, thus the equivalent of being in a coma IRL. Or eventually die in their sleep IRL. We don't use the "Search in the darkness forever" as the equivalent of literal time being forever. So in other worlds, I still have doubts about the cosmology being 2-B.
Click to expand...
The interview literally stated that the dream worlds mirror the waking world down to the last detail, so it does mirrors reality.

This is the quote that explains how the dream worlds mirrors reality:

Iizuka: Since this was a world of "dreams" we were depicting—the mysterious world of the unconscious—we had to understand the whole thing before we could begin creating it. Take an island. If it's a real island, it's easy enough to create. Once we settled on the "dream" concept, though, it meant we had to design and create every detail of that island ex nihilo.
 
You don't need to make a entire wall of text because someone mentioned a series you like since you yourself have done anologies before. Especialy mentioning things that were never ever actualy stated, anyways Elixir and Gilad have mada good points and I do agree with Sera but 2-C intead of low 2-C makes more sense
 
Nah 2-C to 2-B is much Better, there's no "low" in it cuz it mirrors what it's supposed to represent if the NiGHTS dimension is supoosed to reflect a "real" universe that would mean it in it's entirety. then there's the dreams in a similar potent context.
 
It is referred to where the humans come from using these interchanged terms: the real world, another world, the waking world and as a universe in NIGHTS. Which is an individual section of their cosmology.

Which is why that the 2-B rating outright would make more sense here if the Night Dimension is consequently is a collection of many dreams called individually as worlds matching the number of humans alive, especially since the reference comparison is identical between the kid's worlds and where the kids come from by owl with "another world".

Like the Dream Depot's case, it takes more assumptions not even backed by evidence and yet a lack of to assume the world term is refering to something wholly different than a direct comparison here with each being self described as comparable to the universe the kids come from, which is self-evident.
 
Genericstickman said:
If we're nearly done then we'd eventually have to make the thread on if NIGHTS is canon to Sonic (ow boy)
Click to expand...
NiGHTS appearances in Sonic games
Hi. Just stopping by to drop this here in case that gets discussed. Not sure how useful this alone will be, but, uh, yeah. Cya!
 
Genericstickman said:
Aren't most of them cameos anyhow?
Click to expand...
No they aren't. They are actual game appearance of NiGHTS in Sonic's multiverse. And the fact that he appeared in numerous Sonic games proves he's not just a cameo but an actual character that connected to his verse
 
Ok, so the current choices are:

At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B

Or

At least 2-C, possibly 2-B

Personally, I want to pick the latter but it's up to the staff to decide.

Just a review, the Nightopians call the awake human dimension as a world and it's stated they can see a human visitor's consciousness and recreate the happy world that is hidden deep inside humans.
 
I don't really see why its a possibility 2-B and not flat out 2-B if the assumptions to assume its not 2-B don't have any actual context examples of a 'world' in the shared game series' meaning something other than 'the planet Earth' or the human's dimension to rely on. Even Likely works better here than Possibly.

If there are such examples, bring them up peeps.
 
Mephistus said:
I don't really see why its a possibility 2-B and not flat out 2-B if the assumptions to assume its not 2-B don't have any actual context examples of a 'world' in the shared game series' meaning something other than 'the planet Earth' or the human's dimension to rely on. Even Likely works better here than Possibly.
If there are such examples, bring them up peeps.
Click to expand...
same Fam, but i'd rather take that than no 2-B
 
As far as i'm aware, there is no connection between Archie Sonic and NIGHTS.

Now, Archie Sonic and Sabrina the teenage witch...
 
ElixirBlue said:
As far as i'm aware, there is no connection between Archie Sonic and NIGHTS.
Now, Archie Sonic and Sabrina the teenage witch...
Click to expand...
riverdale/greendale placements are canon to archie sonic's multiverse. and NiGHTS appears in another time another place (takes place in the game canon according to ian flynn) and then in worlds unite.
 
ElixirBlue said:
Ok, so the current choices are:

At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B

Or

At least 2-C, possibly 2-B
Click to expand...
The staff consensus seems to lean toward using the first alternative.
 
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