(Nasuverse Upgrade) High 6-A rating for Characters with A+ (and above) Noble Phantasms?

[RegisNex1232]

Except that the Nasuverse is mainly literature, hence all the written materials we read and cite from. Again, you haven't shown that Pashupata deals damage based off written works like materials books or the story, so I don't see why we should just accept that it does without proof.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You have a visual dismissed by Repp as it isn't really hinted at in the NP's description. Stupidity only takes you so far.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That's cool but my point was TBB doesn't make black holes now does it? Nothing wrong with attack animations that match the primary source material,but here that clearly isn't the case.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Except that the Nasuverse is mainly literature

Objectively not true. It's 90% either visual novels which have visuals and video games. There's very few Nasuverse works that are just written fiction, and even the ones that do like Fate/Zero have animated versions.

What more proof do you need that Pashupata has power more so than a feat it does which requires energy to disperse the clouds? Like, seriously, this ain't hard to get.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Maybe Repp's simply wrong. Also, keep with the strawman's. They help you so well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Stupidity only takes you so far.

Also, please don't insult me. We don't need that in this thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's cool but my point was TBB doesn't make black holes now does it?
Nothing wrong with attack animations that match the primary source material,but here that clearly isn't the case.

Except that Fate's Canon is the games in this case. We ain't talking about a video game adaptation of a manga that takes many liberties, in this case the game is the original work. So that comparison is flawed.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Except that the Nasuverse is mainly literature

-

Worst of all. Arjuna mainly appears in videogames. So the animation is 100% legitimate.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Arjuna and Karna are like, only video games no? Grand Order and Extella.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Correct.

 

[RegisNex1232]

When the description, written by the character's creator, fails to mention any damage is dealt, it is safe to assume that they are correct and take them over visuals that are ultimately there for show.

Given that Repp has read and understood more than Matthew who feels that authorial input should be readily ignored for visuals that he can easily misinterprete, it's clear to see which one should be listened to.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Video games whose stories are told through text instead of animations.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Video games whose stories are told through text instead of animations.

They are told through both, my dude. Grand Order, Fate Extra and Extella all have cutscenes to a degree. And are games. You are ignoring the visuals in a visual media. Imagining asking to ignore tone and pitch in a song and instead just read the lyrics? That'd be ridiculous, because you're taking out the main element of an auditive media.

Same thing here. Video games just like movies are visual orientated.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Given that Repp has read and understood more than Matthew who feels that authorial input should be readily ignored for visuals that he can easily misinterprete, it's clear to see which one should be listened to.

Appeal to authority.


Both Fate/Extella Link's and Grand Order's animation of the attack correspond. There is nothing more direct than that. I still agree with Matt.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Author Intent can be and has been readily ignored in this wiki. There's also an entire school of literary thought around it. If you want for authorial intent to be unquestionable you might try a different website.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Except the visuals don't tell us why say Arjuna was holding back this entire time, or how the planet is covered in pinned down layers of reality, or about Grand Servants, and so on. In order to understand the story and other materials, you have to read the written text, not just discard it for visuals you don't understand.

So far you haven't really made a case other than to keep mindlessly insisting that visuals matter more than text, when they never really have.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Author Intent can be and has been readily ignored in this wiki. There's also an entire school of literary thought around it. If you want for authorial intent to be unquestionable you might try a different website.

Then you should just throw out all the NP and skills' descriptions as they are based off the author's intent, not visuals.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Regis, so what if Arjuna is holding back, do you realize that just makes it more impressive? And so what about the layers, what does that even have to do with parting clouds? Nevermind all the comparable feats from other Servants?

They matter equally, you act like visuals don't matter at all and have just been put there for "Oh shiny!"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Then you should just throw out all the NP and skills' descriptions as they are based off the author's intent, not visuals.

No, they're based on the text and the visuals. They are based on what is in the work, not a supposed intent behind the work.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Overall all you have said is an assumption based off visuals.

Again, missing the point. If you have read his interlude (there's a link above) you would realise, through reading the text that he had been holding back his power. Just like how Hans told us about Grand Servants in London through the text or Holmes in Camelot talking about Rhon. The important info is always given as text, not visuals.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, it is based on both. You can stop randomly highlighting your text because it won't make it more important or meaningful, either.

Visuals + Text. They are not mutually exclusive.

Like, seriously, do you really require the authors to spoonfeed us everything and if they don't do you really think we should just write off everything else as "attack animations"?

You're acting like Nasu and all the people at Type-Moon think Fate fans are idiots and need everything expressly told to them and that they can't just make their own conclusions on what an attack actually looks like in a visual media.

You also act like we need to entirely go with either the description or the visuals and that using one automatically renders the other invalid. Why does it matter if the supplemental materials explain more lore? It doesn't invalidate the animations.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Matt

The point of Pashupata is that it obliterates targets individually by forcibly sending them to Moksha.

The visual effect really doesn't apply here.

 

[JBennett]

Considering that the NP is primarely a Hax base ability we really shouldn't use the Animation as a base for AP. It the same reason why Gil wasn't accepted as Solar systme level since Ea splits reality and destroys the World in the procces. We only use visuals if nothing about them contidics the explanation, ex Excalibur being Island via destroying Casters pet slug.

Ignoring what the explanation says just because we want to use the animation is the same as ignoring canon facts that the creator goes out of their way to explain because you want to ignore it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matt
The point of Pashupata is that it obliterates targets individually by forcibly sending them to Moksha.

I understand that, but in this case Pashupata does the feat indirectly just by being sent upwards. It's not even the primary effect. That's what makes it crazier.

Also, now that you are here, what do you think about this is blatantly High 6-A:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lancer_(Arturia)

(With at least half of its Restraints released, it can show its true power as an anchor that fastens together the outer layer of the world and the Reverse Side of the World. If it were to be undone, reality will be stripped from the surface of the World, leaving only the Reverse Side of the World and bringing back the Age of Gods)

 

[RegisNex1232]

Not really. A lot of what we know about NPs like this are given in text in the character materials, not visuals. You still don't have any proof that it does damage other than visuals which aren't exactly great source materials and can be very misleading.

There's no point in looking at the visuals when the text is enough and does not exactly match it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, we can look at both. What's so difficult to understand about that? Nothing about the text invalidates the visuals. They aren't mutually exclusive. You have yet to show how they are.

 

[RegisNex1232]

This is again never shown anywhere else, so why should we consider it over canon text? Dismissing the author doesn't work here when the only one giving info is the author, who has said that it works based off hax.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Both are canon, Regis. You talk about canon and the text but you don't talk about what's canon and on the screen. If you want to talk about authors, do you understand that the authors are okay and put that animation there, right?

 

[RegisNex1232]

No, you have to show that the visuals are valid. You can't just keep repeating that and hope people will accept it, when the NP's description fails to indicate it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, you have to show that the visuals are valid. You can't just keep repeating that and hope people will accept it, when the NP's description fails to indicate it.

I mean, when we have confirmation that Kiara and Saver are legitimate. When Ishtar is straight-up referred to as a "Venus-buster"...

 

[JBennett]

Besides Arturia is 6-B due to being able to match Ozymandias' Dendera Light Bulb which stated to posses power equivalent to a Solar Flare.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That description in the much higher talks about destroying the surface of the world.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Ishtar never busts Venus, so I don't know why you would bring that up.

Stop dodging the points Matthew and answer them. Do you really think that the visuals are valid despite there being zero hints for it in the NP's description?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

She has the power to do so, both her NP and that statement give indication to them.

And yes, they are legitimate. Can I not trust what I see in a visual media? This is no different than using Summons and Limit Breaks in Final Fantasy.

 

[JBennett]

The difference between Summons in FF and this feat is that Summons specifically stated to summon the corisponding being while the NP has no mention of being able to destroy a Continent ,or something of equivelent level.

 

[RegisNex1232]

No they don't, that is simply your poor reading comprehension.

Then I guess we can just dismiss your arguments as you seem to think that zero proof of something is enough to rate a feat.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not poor reading comprehension. I have given my proof and my arguments. You just dismiss anyone who disagrees with you.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

With the logic that we can't use visuals for characters, a huge fraction of FF feats would be invalid, notably Sephiroth's Supernova, which everyone and their mother agrees is a 4-B feat now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Literallly every RPG ever actually.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You have yet to present a proper argument in regards to the Nasuverse, instead fully showing off your ignorance and assuming that your flawed interpretations are correct.

Again, when the text of the NP does not indicate that it does damage, one is more likely to think that it doesn't deal damage. Usually if it's supposed to deal damage it's mentioned like for Excalibur, Stella, Enuma Elish, etc.