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Complete revision of ULTRAKILL statistics and scaling (AP and speed), adding the Judge of Hell key for Minos

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Hello everyone. This is my first Ultrakill thread.

The current pages of Ultrakill are very far from the lore of Ultrakill. This applies not only to physical characteristics, but also to scaling.

In fact, this also applies to a huge number of other characteristics, but let's go through speed and strength first.

Upgrade AP, Lifting and Speed of The Corpse of King Minos.​

This calculation. Upgrade Corpse to 39.78 petatons (His AP = his Dur).

At the moment, we are scaling Minos to 7-C, through a speed greater than a rocket and a height of hundreds of meters. However, we are using fundamentally incorrect methods.

We are trying to find his height through comparison with V1 in bossfight. However, there is a huge amount of Hakita's claim that Ultrakill is purposely inconsistent in maintaining character heights because he doesn't want to bother with accuracy, he makes his job easier. He makes the characters as large as it would be convenient for the player to aim and hit them. The only most accurate proportions that Hakita maintains are conceptual ones, for example that V1 and V2 have the same height, because they are the same robot model of different colors.

Therefore, in Bossfight he is visually smaller than in the background of the levels. However, comparing his height to the city should be used for AP, as the highest feat shown and as the fact that he can fight even in this state.

We can also say that this could be due to the very non-Euclidean and ever-changing law of spatiality in Hell, but this sounds too boring and a bit far-fetched.

Some people may say that since Minos canonically has different heights in different scenes, then we should indicate in his profile "Varies, from Town Level to Multi-Continent Level", and we should scale V1 to the 7-C version of Minos. No.

Firstly, it has never been stated that Minos's ability to change his height is a separate ability on which his physical strength depends. His height changes in bossfight only to make it more convenient for the player to fight him and to make it easier for Hakita.

Secondly, even within levels 2-4 we see that its size changes. For example, his hand, which we fight inside the subway, is much smaller than his hand in the final bossfight. However, his damage and ability to withstand damage from V1 remain the same, indicating that his power level does not change with the change in height.


Thirdly, in fact, the Corpse of Minos is just a shell. It's not a zombie, it's just a Corpse. It is controlled by two parasites that have inhabited it. The corpse contains only small traces of his soul, but the soul itself is imprisoned in the Prison of Flesh, on another layer of Hell (Gluttony). It's no longer Minos (Technically, this would force a separate profile for it, but it's best not to do that). All power comes from them. This means that these parasites scale to all of Corpse's feats. In the world of Ultrakill, the strength, appearance (human-like) and intelligence of Husks (manifest souls of sinners) depend on their willpower and respect in the world of the living. The size of the Husks also depends on these parameters, and Minos, being the Judge of Hell (Before second death by Gabriel), was the largest recorded Husk due to the same two parameters (Yes, before becoming a corpse, Minos was human-like and just as huge. He looked like this). The Angels are stronger than Minos the Judge of Hell, because the Angels are stronger than Husks, in turn, Gabriel is one of the strongest angels, and he killed Minos Pre-Prime, tearing his flesh into pieces (below is an excerpt from the book).
2-2: Death at 20,000 Volts - Subject of Minos
...Gabriel struck down Minos, his flesh torn asunder with torrents of crimson pooling at his feet as we all cried out for clarity. 'Justice,' Gabriel decreed to all, with our just ruler writhing in wailing agony, 'The Lord's Will be done.' We watched on in horror as Minos lay broken, now waning, screaming in defiance of God's Will, Gabriel.

V1 defeated Gabriel several times.

V1 > Gabriel >>>> Average Angels >> Minos, Judge of Hell >>>> Parasites = The Corpse of King Minos.

In any case, the main cast will scale from this. This calculation will also upgrade Lifting and Corpse Speed to Class P and Massive Hypersonic (914.2 Mach).

Counter argument:

We can't use the background because it's not detailed.

โ€” No, we can. It only seems so undetailed and pixelated if you fly closer, which is impossible without cheats. Everything looks natural and natural. Not being willing to accept this just because the city is not three-dimensional, in a game made by an indie developer, is STRANGE. Hakita is trying to show how huge Minos is compared to the city below, it's obvious, but he can't create that much background detail in an FPS game.

Changing power scalings and hierarchies in Ultrakill​

Ultrakill scaling is just terrible right now. You scale everyone to each other, even to characters of completely different scales, which is why even Ferryman can give a fight to Minos Prime, and Gabriel even defeated Minos Prime in some thread.

We need to start with small. First, we need to limit the scaling of ALL to V1. The fact that many of his enemies are regarded as bosses does not always mean that they are comparable to the main character (Such examples would be Ultrakill's fathers, who he always looks up to, like Devil May Cry and DOOM). However, some have responded to this with the argument that V1 is described as a more fragile machine than many others. I understand that this is his main idea, for the player to constantly be agile and try to regenerate, but it simply doesn't fit with the events of the game.

As an example, Maurice, Swordmachine, Ferryman, Cerberus and Sisyphean Insurrectionist were initially regarded as boss enemies, but later each of them became enemies without HP bar of normal bosses, becoming simply stronger normal enemies.

Swordmachine is weaker than Sisyphean Insurrectionist, and Sisyphean Insurrectionist is much weaker than Minos (Judge of Hell), because the stronger Husk, the larger his size, and Minos is COLOSSUSLY larger than Sisyphean Insurrectionist. Angels (Born in Heavens, not Virtues) are stronger than Minos. Gabriel is one of the most powerful and respected angels; in fact, he killed Minos, taking his place. Minos Prime, according to Hakita, would not give Gabriel a chance, and Gabriel would never be able to defeat him in a 1 on 1 fight. Gabriel's only chance of defeating Minos was to take an army of angels with him, and even so it would be impossible hard victory. Sisyphus Prime was able to one-shot Panocticon with his physical strength, which is stronger than the Prison of Flesh, which could contain the soul of Minos and which could protect him from all the Husks in Hell (Including his Corpse), and Sisyphus is much larger than Minos, as a result of which, according to the rules Ultrakill, his soul manifest is much stronger (The power of Prime Souls depends only on willpower, unlike Husks, respect during life does not play a role here). V1 killed Sisyphus by physically overpowering his blows in battle.

V1 > Sisyphus Prime >> Panocticon > Prison of Flesh <= Minos Prime >>>> Gabriel >>>> regular Angel > Judge Minos >> Corpse of Minos >>>>>>>>>>>> Sisyphean Insurrectionist > Swordmachine.

But according to your scaling methods, they all = V1. It is not right. Moreover, throughout the entire game the player fought several Sisyphean Insurrectionists simultaneously without problems, and Cybergrind (a simulation existing in the gameโ€™s Lore) implies that at one moment the Terminal can set four Ferrymen on us at the same time.

Let's change this and create a new hierarchy of power. I won't write too much about what low rank characters should scale to, I'll try to do it quickly.

Low Tier:​

This will include the weakest Husks in the game and the like. There are no profiles on them, so I won't do anything except to say that I just have an idea to scale them up to the point where they can withstand non-lethal shockwaves in the game. They are not lethal to them, however they are capable of throwing their bodies tens of meters into the sky, which could give them very high durability, probably at level 9-A. It's a bit useless, so I won't calculate it.

Mid-Tier:​

This will include more powerful characters such as Swordmachine, Virtue, Cerberus and so on. Firstly, they are capable of single-handedly destroying entire levels of Low-Tier Husks (The entire level of Limbo was destroyed by Streetcleaners single-handedly). Machines, in principle, as a class are much stronger than all the non-Supreme Huskies in the game, which is why the mass extinction of Hell began, while other opponents of this league are simply comparable to them in strength. Secondly, they will scale to tank more powerful explosions, as well as being capable of destroying large columns. The result will likely be around 8-C or High 8-C.

This league would probably include Sisyphean Insurrectionist because it has no way to scale to Minos Corpse. We don't have a profile on it, but judging by the picture on verse page, it was planned.

High Tires:​


This includes everyone who scales up to the parasites that control the Corpse of Minos. Among existing profiles, this would include Ferryman. Ferrymen are a special species of Husks who are responsible for moving sinners between the layers of Hell and along the River Styx. They are responsible for this because of their loyalty, and they look just like humans (but they tore off all the flesh and blood from themselves, so they now look like blue skeletons) and have full human intelligence, and they also wear clothes, which Gabriel gave them for their endless devotion to God. These clothes give them special powers, similar to angels, and the only reason why Ferrymen do not become angels is their sins in a past life. That's why they are so strong, despite their small size.

The factor of their features, human appearance, high intelligence and a bit of angelic power due to Gabriel's blessing should scale them above the Parasites inside the Corpse, like a more developed and powerful Husk who was even assigned a job.

This will also include Judge Minos, as the strongest Husk. His key is not in the profile, but it should be added later.

This would give them AP >39.78 petatons, High 6-A.

This should also include regular angels, due to the fact that Hakita says that Minos the Judge would have been destroyed by the Angels, because the Angels are stronger than the Husks. Virtues should not come here, due to the fact that Angels not born in Heaven are not full-fledged and are clearly weaker than them.


This will also include Angels and Judge Minos, as the most powerful Hask. His key is not in the profile, but it should be added later.


God-Tiers:​


This will include the strongest characters that scale much higher than other characters.

1) Gabriel is one of the most powerful Angels in Ultrakill. He is an Archangel who is much stronger than ordinary angels, and for his strength he deserved to be the new Judge of Hell, he even led a rebellion in Heaven, killing the entire Council of Angels. He killed Judge Minos by tearing him apart. He is the reason why no one in Hell rebels anymore because he can easily defeat any armies in Hell.

In addition, he was able to survive two fights with V1 at once, although he lost both fights. He held back in the first half of the first fight against V1, and in the second half of the fight he stopped, causing his stats to increase. After losing to V1, his worldview was completely destroyed because he didn't meet anyone who could not only defeat him, but even make him tense up, which suggests that his holding back behavior was usually enough to kill all previous enemies .

In the second fight, he was much stronger due to his anger, causing his stats to increase. During the second half of the fight, Gabriel reached peace and relief, causing him to change his fighting style again, increasing his speed and damage once again.

2) Prison of Flesh and Panocticon.

They were created by Angels to restrain the Prime Soul from transformation, due to which they both could restrain the soul of Minos and Sisyphus for thousands of years. The Angels were terribly afraid of the power of the Prime Souls, as a result of which they created these creatures to contain them, which clearly scales them much higher than the Angels and makes them probably not much weaker than Minos Prime (Who admittedly did not fully form as a Prime Soul).

Panocticon is stronger than the Prison of Flesh.

3) Minos Prime, according to Hakita, is much stronger than Gabriel and would defeat him in a 1 on 1 battle, leaving him no chance. He was truly a threat to Heaven and could destroy Heavenly Cities. The only way to defeat him would be to pit Gabriel and an army of angels against him, and even so, winning would be extremely difficult. He was going to destroy the heavenly cities.

In the world of Ultrakill, after death your soul becomes a Husk in Hell. You already know their rules of power. However, if they die in the same way as Husk, and their willpower is incredibly high, they can be reborn as a Soul Prime. These are such powerful beings that they no longer need physical bodies to exist. This would mean that Minos Prime has, at worst, all the power of Judge Minos (All Joules), but crammed into a much smaller form, only maybe 2 meters tall. This would make him COLOSSAL more stronger than his Husk form, because the energy distributed per square centimeter of fist would be morbillion of times higher. However, we cannot multiply the force so many times due to rule. Therefore, his profile will simply say "At least Multi-Continent level, likely far higher."

4) Sisyphus Prime is bigger than Minos Prime and began to transform very quickly immediately into Prime Soul, which scared the Angels. This is due to his incredible willpower. After V1 has taken down 10-20% of Panocticum's HP bar, Sisyphus destroys it with a one-shot, tearing it apart, although Panocticon is stronger than the Prison of Flesh, which is capable of containing Minos Prime.

In addition, all this time Sisyphus was formed inside the Panocticum for a thousand years, such development managed to make him much stronger than the newborn Minos.

This would make Sisyphus much stronger than Minos.

Obviously, V1 will be the strongest because he defeated them all. Also, a convenient additional proof of V1's superiority: Hakita said that hitting V1 for Corpse is like trying to hit a nail on a person with your fist. This proves the huge difference in strength between them (And again debunks claims that he is fragile).

V2 will scale up to V1 in everything, and surpass him in durability (Hakita also confirms this). The only reason V2 lost was his possibly slightly lower skills and inability to regenerate like V1.

___________________________________________
Agree: Swordsaint456, Brahmatman, Deymoc13, PavilVers, SYPHe5D, Shmooply (Only for New Scalings High and God Tier, and possibly Low Tier and Mid Tier)

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
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Your upgrade solely stands on a calc that hasn't even been accepted by CGMs, and in fact has been recently declined by a CGM that's knowledgeable on this verse.
however they are capable of throwing their bodies tens of meters into the sky, which could give them very high durability, probably at level 9-A.
Even the average "Falling back to Earth from space" feat barely nets a 9-A value, so this is wrong. In addition a lot of husks and even enemies like Streetcleaners panic and get flattened after landing from smaller heights than that.
While I am of the opinion that machines > husk, I have to disagree with using this as a feat. Streetcleaners are fast and can even dodge and parry projectiles, but the thing is, their fire quickly kills husks, and we're talking about a whole group of them. This also ignores the context of what happens in the game, as streetcleaners tend to show up only after you did most of the work (After you killed a majority of the husks outside the chapel in 1-2, most of them showing up or performing an ambush after you clear a room in 1-3, appearing only at the near end of 2-1, etc).

The proposed changes for High Tier and God Tier scaling look good.
 
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Your upgrade solely stands on a calc that hasn't even been accepted by CGMs, and in fact has been recently declined by a CGM that's knowledgeable on this verse.
I just answered him in the comments and based on the conversation I realized that he lacks lore knowledge, especially when he said that cybergrind is not canon. I described why this counterargument is not working and depends on the desire of the administrator, and not on objective reasons. The PS1 argument cannot be used.
Even the average "Falling back to Earth from space" feat barely nets a 9-A value, so this is wrong. In additiom a lot of husks and even enemies like Streetcleaners panic and get flattened after landing from smaller heights than that.
You don't understand what I'm talking about. What I meant was that in real life, level 9-A shockwaves throw people a limited number of meters, more tearing them apart. And in this case, their bodies weighing hundreds of kilograms are thrown tens of meters up. I know that falling from a great height is a 9-B, but it was about the shock wave. Because of inverse squares.
While I am of the opinion that machines > husk, I have to disagree with using this as a feat. Streetcleaners are fast and can even dodge and parry projectiles, but the thing is, their fire quickly kills husks, and we're talking about a whole group of them. This also ignores the context of what happens in the game, as streetcleaners tend to show up only after you did most of the work (After you killed a majority of the husks outside the chapel in 1-2, most of them showing up or performing an ambush after you clear a room in 1-3, appearing only at the near end of 2-1, etc).
The fact that cars are stronger than Husks is not the main argument, but an additional one. What I'm saying is that we have two examples of one type of robot solo destroying huge groups of husks. And other robots are usually no weaker than them, if not stronger.

Actually, Streetcleaners are destroying the other half of Limbo. In addition, Hakita himself says that they did this, which means that in the worst case there were large groups of enemies there.
 
I just answered him in the comments and based on the conversation I realized that he lacks lore knowledge, especially when he said that cybergrind is not canon.
If you're referring to this (which is from a different calc that isn't even used here) then you have probably misread it. He said the rankings and the Cybergrind are canon, there's just no evidence for that applying to the sandbox because... it's gm_construct with a 4th wall breaking terminal hidden in the walls.

Still, if a calc has been rejected then you should probably address that first instead of... making a CRT based off a rejected calc. Like why should we use the highest end gotten through very questionable means and assumptions instead of the more reasonable low end, especially when you claim that Hakita doesn't really care to give concrete heights or such?
 
If you're referring to this (which is from a different calc that isn't even used here) then you have probably misread it. He said the rankings and the Cybergrind are canon, there's just no evidence for that applying to the sandbox because... it's gm_construct with a 4th wall breaking terminal hidden in the walls.

Still, if a calc has been rejected then you should probably address that first instead of... making a CRT based off a rejected calc. Like why should we use the highest end gotten through very questionable means and assumptions instead of the more reasonable low end, especially when you claim that Hakita doesn't really care to give concrete heights or such?
I made this discussion before DMUA comment was written/seen.


Firstly, why can't we use characteristics within simulations if the physical parameters of these characters are repeated there? Even their damage is the same as before, as is the amount of HP.

The sandbox is a simulation and it means that B1 is able to create more things in it to train his skills. The fact that this is a map from Garrys Mod doesn't change anything, it's just a reference, just like Ultrakill's gameplay was inspired by Doom and DMc.

Secondly, the ranks are also completely canonical and from there V1 receives โ€œmoneyโ€ to buy weapons. Yes, resurrections are probably not included in the story-wise assessment, but we canโ€™t claim that something in the sandbox is also not canon just because you want it to be. We can claim that V1 does not know how to resurrect because it does not correspond to his abilities. But we can't say the same about Minos Prime's stats.

You and I both understand that if Minos Prime appeared on other maps, he would easily cover any distance instantly, even on maps where the arena is much larger than in the bossfight with him. Due to the fact that Sandboxes are canonical simulations and the characteristics of all enemies are repeated, we are obliged to use this. Ultrakill has invisible walls that limit further movements. I used the maximum height to the invisible walls, so this is a legal distance.

About the growth of characters. Hakita directly stated that he did not want to always keep the exact height of the characters, and what is very important, he said that their large size was always made so that it would be more convenient for the player to fight with them. This is the main reason why he is smaller in bossfight than in the background.

We should use his size in the background as a more canonical height, because there we get a clearer narrative representation of Minos's height, comparing it to entire blocks at his feet. We see the full size of it and a clear emphasis on how large it is against the backdrop of the city. In a fight with him, we only see his head, because thatโ€™s how the style of fighting with him is made. We always use characters' best feats to gauge their power level. We donโ€™t give big characters smaller height through worse scenes, such as the Sage Centipede from One Punch Man is 50 meters wide due to many pages, we use the best pages through which its width is a couple of kilometers. We should do the same with Minos, using scenes where there is clearly MORE emphasis on how big he is against the backdrop of the city.

We canโ€™t throw away all the calculations related to V1 just because there are no clear indications of V1โ€™s height.
 
This calculation. Upgrade Corpse to 39.78 petatons (His AP = his Dur).
DMUA is completely correct in his rejection of the calculation. While Minos' visible size isn't necessarily representative of his canon one, utilizing a skybox (which you are never meant to look at up close) is far worse, not only because it still involves his gameplay size but because it takes literally something that is just meant to set the atmosphere from far away, seen at an angle that is never visible without cheats.
โ€” No, we can. It only seems so undetailed and pixelated if you fly closer, which is impossible without cheats. Everything looks natural and natural. Not being willing to accept this just because the city is not three-dimensional, in a game made by an indie developer, is STRANGE. Hakita is trying to show how huge Minos is compared to the city below, it's obvious, but he can't create that much background detail in an FPS game.
The very facts that cheats are required to get the angle you used, while Minos is never actually visible in direct comparison to the city, throws a lot of shade on the calculation- and it being a flat PNG is still an issue because it's clearly not representative of what a city would actually look like in comparison to the guy.
Swordmachine is weaker than Sisyphean Insurrectionist, and Sisyphean Insurrectionist is much weaker than Minos (Judge of Hell), because the stronger Husk, the larger his size, and Minos is COLOSSUSLY larger than Sisyphean Insurrectionist. Angels (Born in Heavens, not Virtues) are stronger than Minos. Gabriel is one of the most powerful and respected angels; in fact, he killed Minos, taking his place. Minos Prime, according to Hakita, would not give Gabriel a chance, and Gabriel would never be able to defeat him in a 1 on 1 fight. Gabriel's only chance of defeating Minos was to take an army of angels with him, and even so it would be impossible hard victory. Sisyphus Prime was able to one-shot Panocticon with his physical strength, which is stronger than the Prison of Flesh, which could contain the soul of Minos and which could protect him from all the Husks in Hell (Including his Corpse), and Sisyphus is much larger than Minos, as a result of which, according to the rules Ultrakill, his soul manifest is much stronger (The power of Prime Souls depends only on willpower, unlike Husks, respect during life does not play a role here). V1 killed Sisyphus by physically overpowering his blows in battle.

V1 > Sisyphus Prime >> Panocticon > Prison of Flesh <= Minos Prime >>>> Gabriel >>>> regular Angel > Judge Minos >> Corpse of Minos >>>>>>>>>>>> Sisyphean Insurrectionist > Swordmachine.

But according to your scaling methods, they all = V1. It is not right. Moreover, throughout the entire game the player fought several Sisyphean Insurrectionists simultaneously without problems, and Cybergrind (a simulation existing in the gameโ€™s Lore) implies that at one moment the Terminal can set four Ferrymen on us at the same time.
This doesn't really work when you consider that V1 is canonically less armored than just about every other machine in the game, not to mention Hakita has pretty much stated V1 to be weaker than Corpse Minos (I can't find the statement because old discussions on Steam get archived, but I'll keep looking), which means the power gaps are not as massive as you claim. I do agree that the scaling you lay out is fine, I just wouldn't consider the gaps between these to be stomp-worthy. Skill and speed likely play a role too here, rather than just raw AP.
This will include the weakest Husks in the game and the like. There are no profiles on them, so I won't do anything except to say that I just have an idea to scale them up to the point where they can withstand non-lethal shockwaves in the game. They are not lethal to them, however they are capable of throwing their bodies tens of meters into the sky, which could give them very high durability, probably at level 9-A. It's a bit useless, so I won't calculate it.
This would be 9-B at best, the actual best feat for bottom tiers is busting through doors in 5-3.
This will include more powerful characters such as Swordmachine, Virtue, Cerberus and so on. Firstly, they are capable of single-handedly destroying entire levels of Low-Tier Husks (The entire level of Limbo was destroyed by Streetcleaners single-handedly). Machines, in principle, as a class are much stronger than all the non-Supreme Huskies in the game, which is why the mass extinction of Hell began, while other opponents of this league are simply comparable to them in strength. Secondly, they will scale to tank more powerful explosions, as well as being capable of destroying large columns. The result will likely be around 8-C or High 8-C.
This would require a calculation and a scan.
Obviously, V1 will be the strongest because he defeated them all. Also, a convenient additional proof of V1's superiority: Hakita said that hitting V1 for Corpse is like trying to hit a nail on a person with your fist. This proves the huge difference in strength between them (And again debunks claims that he is fragile).
This does not claim anything of the sort, it's talking about how surface area makes V1 deal more damage- the way that someone would get easily hurt by punching a nail.
 
DMUA is completely correct in his rejection of the calculation. While Minos' visible size isn't necessarily representative of his canon one, utilizing a skybox (which you are never meant to look at up close) is far worse, not only because it still involves his gameplay size but because it takes literally something that is just meant to set the atmosphere from far away, seen at an angle that is never visible without cheats.
No, no need to make things up. In the level before the boss fight, in one of the rooms there are windows leading directly to the feet of Minos. We see how huge Minos is without noclip, in an honest, STORY way. And we directly see that his legs dwarf huge areas, even without calculation we understand how huge he is, MUCH more than in Bossfight. I used the values from this level because in this case Minos is very close to us, in the zone of absolute visibility. With each level we get closer and closer to it, and this was the last level where we were able to see its TRUE size. Therefore, this is a legal method.

We're on an incredibly high platform that makes the city seem tiny, which is clearly exactly what the game was trying to convey and that's exactly what we see. We can't say it's not canon JUST because pixels are visible when you zoom in.

Most of the enemies in the game have low-quality pixel models, this is the surroundings of the game, but everything in the game is taken literally. And as I showed, we are able, without cheats, from afar, when we donโ€™t see the pixels, to see in a high-quality picture that it overshadows entire blocks. I used low-quality pixels ONLY to get the calculation, but what difference does it make which calculation method I use? The method still works, I just use the most convenient version of the calculation method. I can simply compare Minos' foot to the island on which the Empire State is located, without calculating the size of one pixel on it.
The very facts that cheats are required to get the angle you used, while Minos is never actually visible in direct comparison to the city, throws a lot of shade on the calculation- and it being a flat PNG is still an issue because it's clearly not representative of what a city would actually look like in comparison to the guy.
Explained above. This place can be easily seen without a noclip. I'll just have to use the angular dimension then. For what? This formula is already incredibly inaccurate when we are not talking about human eyes, but about the size of my monitor, and this game is still 3D, not a manga. I simplified my work with a know-clip, but canonically in the game itself without cheats this can still be seen and compared. It's nearby.
This doesn't really work when you consider that V1 is canonically less armored than just about every other machine in the game, not to mention Hakita has pretty much stated V1 to be weaker than Corpse Minos (I can't find the statement because old discussions on Steam get archived, but I'll keep looking), which means the power gaps are not as massive as you claim. I do agree that the scaling you lay out is fine, I just wouldn't consider the gaps between these to be stomp-worthy. Skill and speed likely play a role too here, rather than just raw AP.
I have not seen this statement and I doubt that it exists in the context you are talking about. However, even if it were so, it would contradict the fact that the player is able to completely extinguish a double-legged blow with full speed from Minos Prime or the strongest blows of Sisyphus with a punch. Both of them are capable of one-shotting everyone I named above.

I know this is canon, but it doesn't fit the narrative because otherwise we would never be able to parry Minos and Sisyphus and harm them with parry strikes. I just don't think they can defeat Minos Corpse, since they are weaker than Husks, who are colossally smaller than Corpse, although the strength of Husks depends on their size.

This would be 9-B at best, the actual best feat for bottom tiers is busting through doors in 5-3.
It doesn't really matter, I just said it randomly. But as I already said, the fact is that in real life, ordinary people from Level 9-A explosions, although they are torn to pieces, fly only a few meters away. Here, a body weighing more than a hundred kilograms flies tens of meters into the sky from the shock wave, even if the shock wave has already passed 3 meters from the epicenter, and they are able to withstand it point blank.


But that doesn't matter, again. No need to focus on this, probably no one will ever even make a profile with them.

This would require a calculation and a scan.
I understand this, I just said that POSSIBLY it will work out if we do the calculation. But for now, let's better focus on the strongest characters.
This does not claim anything of the sort, it's talking about how surface area makes V1 deal more damage- the way that someone would get easily hurt by punching a nail.
But wouldn't that make the feat much cooler? Imagine if there was a creature two centimeters tall that could throw back your blow with a blow, causing you incredible pain in the end. This creature would be colossally stronger than humans, because its blow would have the same number of joules, but distributed over a smaller area.
 
No, no need to make things up. In the level before the boss fight, in one of the rooms there are windows leading directly to the feet of Minos. We see how huge Minos is without noclip, in an honest, STORY way. And we directly see that his legs dwarf huge areas, even without calculation we understand how huge he is, MUCH more than in Bossfight. I used the values from this level because in this case Minos is very close to us, in the zone of absolute visibility. With each level we get closer and closer to it, and this was the last level where we were able to see its TRUE size. Therefore, this is a legal method.
Explained above. This place can be easily seen without a noclip. I'll just have to use the angular dimension then. For what? This formula is already incredibly inaccurate when we are not talking about human eyes, but about the size of my monitor, and this game is still 3D, not a manga. I simplified my work with a know-clip, but canonically in the game itself without cheats this can still be seen and compared. It's nearby.
That doesn't change the rest of the issues- you're abusing a low-quality picture to get insanely overblown results (By your logic, V1 would be kilometers tall)- and you're justifying the massive inconsistency this causes by claiming that Hakita does not care about sizes but in no way should that ever allow you to ignore the context of the fight (like it or not, Minos is fighting you through the roof of a building, which would be impossible if he was continent-sized, and don't you dare hit me with that "space doesn't work in hell" bullshit) nor does it even come close to meaning that you're allowed to ignore his visible size in favor of one that's extrapolated through much less straight-forward means - "doesn't care about canon heights" goes both ways

My rejection is absolute, and I will not budge on this.
I have not seen this statement and I doubt that it exists in the context you are talking about. However, even if it were so, it would contradict the fact that the player is able to completely extinguish a double-legged blow with full speed from Minos Prime or the strongest blows of Sisyphus with a punch. Both of them are capable of one-shotting everyone I named above.
No they aren't. They're capable of defeating them, that is not the same thing. Clearly the verse operates on much softer scaling logic than you're claiming.

As for the statement, it might actually not exist anymore since apparently old steam discussion posts get archived and hidden, so finding it is proving to be nearly impossible.
I know this is canon, but it doesn't fit the narrative because otherwise we would never be able to parry Minos and Sisyphus and harm them with parry strikes. I just don't think they can defeat Minos Corpse, since they are weaker than Husks, who are colossally smaller than Corpse, although the strength of Husks depends on their size.
It doesn't fit your interpretation of the narrative. Clearly that's where the problem lies. You're taking a glass cannon character who uses the same weaponry as every other machine and claiming they're some unkillable god tier that 99% of the verse can't even scratch- I find it particularly funny that you say Swordmachine doesn't scale when it literally uses the same shotgun V1 does.
But wouldn't that make the feat much cooler? Imagine if there was a creature two centimeters tall that could throw back your blow with a blow, causing you incredible pain in the end. This creature would be colossally stronger than humans, because its blow would have the same number of joules, but distributed over a smaller area.
Who cares whether it's cool or not?
 
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I can't entertain stonewalling forever. You're free to try to convince some other calc group member to disagree (preferably showing them my own reasons first).
 
These are da rules about these cases
When evaluating the size of objects depicted by an author, it's important to consider that the author may have depicted them inconsistently for artistic reasons. A primary example occurs if the author has to show a large object and a comparatively small object at the same time. In such a case they might have to depict the two objects as similar in size for the sake of making both easily visible to the reader. When deciding on the appropriate size scaling to use, such inconsistencies should be taken into account.

As a general guideline, it's preferable to use a scaling where the measuring stick used is of similar size to the object being scaled, rather than a scaling where the measuring stick and object are of very different sizes. However, this guideline should not take priority over other criteria that may cause similar or greater uncertainty in the scaling.

For instance, one method may involve more scaling steps than another, or one method may use angsizing while another uses exclusively pixel scaling. Additionally, the size of one measuring stick may be much less certain than the other or the perspective in one method may prevent precise results. The general consistency of the sizes obtained by various methods should also be taken into account.

In truly extreme examples, exceptions may apply, and common sense should be used. Ultimately, the most important factor is to choose a scaling method that is appropriate for the particular situation and provides the most accurate and consistent results.
 
I think that backs up my points pretty well- we use the simplest, least convoluted option, not the one that requires several assumptions and abstractions to make any sense.
 
You should really only be using the size version of Minos that has feats for scaling, for consistency.
 
Tbh I'm too tired for this, so I won't answer. Iโ€™ll wait for the opinion of others, if they donโ€™t accept it, then next time Iโ€™ll give more arguments, because now I see what claims there are.
 
The sun will still rise over ultrakill.
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