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Nasuverse Revisions Part 2: Root Scaling

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I have to work early in the morning until later after noon, so I need to go to bed now, but I'll be sure to post counter arguments and post additional information that I haven't posted yet from Tsukihime and FGO Mats from a translation team we love to use here lol

Edit: also, I'll be providing stuff using what is proposed in the OP as well to further support my argument
 
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Also, i hope you all realize what Upgrade is trying to do is get all of the currently 2-A characters up to 1-A. I hope you realize the logical holes that come from that.
 
I'm putting myself as an opponent for Nasu now, even after all the upgrades I've helped.
 
You get to pick who doesn't scale when certain people scaling is only based on outliers or blatantly false interpretations. This is what we do on the wiki all the time

If it makes no sense for someone to scale, and they have a single thing even possibly supporting the fact they scale, that's an outlier, and is ignored, and it's even worse if the reasoning for them to scale takes several leaps in logic
 
Paul_Frank said:
You get to pick who doesn't scale when certain people scaling is only based on outliers or blatantly false interpretations. This is what we do on the wiki all the time

If it makes no sense for someone to scale, and they have a single thing even possibly supporting the fact they scale, that's an outlier, and is ignored, and it's even worse if the reasoning for them to scale takes several leaps in logic
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perhaps the root being 1-A is the outlier?

I initially agreed with 1-A root, however, with all these characters scaling to it that aren't at that level themselves, it seems more appropriate that the root being 1-A is the outlier IMO.
 
I'm not sure how The Root being 1-A would be the outlier. The statements used to upgrade it were pretty explicit anyway and its not like The Root can have proper low showings like conventional characters.

I do however vehemently disagree with everyone and their mother scaling to it.
 
Hasty12345 said:
perhaps the root being 1-A is the outlier?

I initially agreed with 1-A root, however, with all these characters scaling to it that aren't at that level themselves, it seems more appropriate that the root being 1-A is the outlier IMO.
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N-no?

The root can not have outliers as there is nothing to actually give it a lower tier feat, or imply it doesn't scale to its own statements and explanations. Of which, might I add, there was definitely more than one thing

The characters scaling is what would be the outlier. Because again, they have literally one thing implying this, which is being used to argue this. This same thing has numerous things going against its credibility, and even if we assumed it's credible, and airtight as far as reasonings go, if it were the only one still, that's an outlier.
 
Planck69 said:
I do however vehemently disagree with everyone and their mother scaling to it.
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That's the issue though, if everyone and their mother has proper arguments suggesting they scale, then what's the issue? You can't upgrade 3 characters based on these statements but ignore the plethora of evidence suggesting all these other characters scale, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
 
Paul_Frank said:
The root can not have outliers as there is nothing to actually give it a lower tier feat, or imply it doesn't scale to its own statements and explanations. Of which, might I add, there was definitely more than one thing
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No, but the legitimacy of the scaling may be called in to question if the children of babylon has 1-A mind hax...
 
Isn't this the sort of thing that should be discussed in a separate CRT? What theunshakeableone is suggesting doesn't really contradict anything in the OP, it's just additions to it. I think that should be saved for another thread and the arguments should be held on the OP rather than anything extra.
 
Hasty12345 said:
That's the issue though, if everyone and their mother has proper arguments suggesting they scale, then what's the issue? You can't upgrade 3 characters based on these statements but ignore the plethora of evidence suggesting all these other characters scale, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
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They don't have a plethora of evidence though

In fact, they have a literal single piece of evidence that was brought up in the post,
that being the Unified Language existing. The remainder of that post, if you read it, was trying to support 1-A hax being something the mooncell could copy.

Hasty12345 said:
No, but the legitimacy of the scaling may be called in to question if the children of babylon has 1-A mind hax...
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I really must ask, did you read either of those long posts in their entirety, or read up on the Unified Language in Fate or anything like that? Because this isn't "everyone has a ton of 1-A hax" this is "this was the only language that existed, so all the humans used it" however, again, this seems to have been ignored even starting at the Dust of Osiris, who, unlike Kurogiri, (who it's noted speaks to the soul of people, and can't use his stuff to affect the world) only uses it to record stuff into the physical objects known as philosopher's stones. And then as we see by Fgo, it has been completely forgotten about, and/or Gilgamesh and co in Babylonia don't actually have it, which causes this entire thing to fall apart even more either way
 
Paul_Frank said:
They don't have a plethora of evidence though

In fact, they have a literal single piece of evidence that was brought up in the post,
that being the Unified Language existing. The remainder of that post, if you read it, was trying to support 1-A hax being something the mooncell could copy.



I really must ask, did you read either of those long posts in their entirety, or read up on the Unified Language in Fate or anything like that? Because this isn't "everyone has a ton of 1-A hax" this is "this was the only language that existed, so all the humans used it" however, again, this seems to have been ignored even starting at the Dust of Osiris, who, unlike Kurogiri, (who it's noted speaks to the soul of people, and can't use his stuff to affect the world) only uses it to record stuff into the physical objects known as philosopher's stones. And then as we see by Fgo, it has been completely forgotten about, and/or Gilgamesh and co in Babylonia don't actually have it, which causes this entire thing to fall apart even more either way
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I'm going to wait for more argumentation before commenting further.
 
PsychoWarper said:
Wait I thought it was just giving them 1-A Hax not AP as well... must have missed it.
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It would still be wrong as in Extra we know that White titan> these power, that the heroic spirit in the throne >these power.

We should have too much people would scale in term of hax (because they resist it) and autorities thing

But in Extra it's still show that everything moon cell is just a weaker version of the Root in a weaker scale so the Root will scale above people who "apparently" scale to him in hax
 
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the Moon Cell should logically have Unified Language even if Gilgamesh does not. i cant speak on Gilgamesh getting it or not since this forum doesnt separate CCC Gilgamesh from the normal version, even though one operates under an entirely different cosmology (Universe of Observation), but the Moon Cell should have it meaning BB and co. should meaning Gilgamesh should at least get resistance to it. and I see no reason why the Moon Cell can't copy Unified Language, since its job is copying everything on Earth, unless there are anti-feats.

and every user of the Five Magics (aka not many) should be considered 1-a via hax due to the nature of the five magics requiring Root access. whether this scales to AP or not is up for question. only one I think that could possibly qualify for 1-a AP is Zelretch due to how he uses the Second Magic with his Jewel Sword. but that can be argued against.

so possible 1-as in my opinion should be

Mooncancer BB due to the Moon Cell logically recording Unified Language

CCC Kiara for the same reasons.

Hakuno when he/she became the Moon Cell briefly in Extra? guess they dont have a page though so guess it isn't important.

Arcueid due to being stated to be above "Ryougi Shiki" and can treat the Moon Cell like a reality marble and has authority over it.

any Five Magics user in whatever specific magic they are wielding.

Gilgamesh is only a possibility. the others though should be for sure. Gilgamesh and the playables should at least resist those hax though since they could fight BB and Kiara.

overall this is not many people and far from all of the 2-as. and I dont think saying a single piece of evidence is not enough so long as it is logical. and it's not like Unified Language would give a billion different 1-a powers. and I think using the argument of the creator forgetting about the ability isn't really a solid line of thinking. and we don't even know if that's true in the first place. and just because some other entities in Nasuverse may be above the Moon Cell doesn't mean they have those hax considering most things in the verse hasn't even interacted with Moon Cell fused beings. and its not like Unified Language automatically makes everything in the Moon Cell 1-a. Unified Language could be the only thing it has recorded that is 1-a. That's a big difference from a complete 1-a character or a character with a bunch of 1-a hax. granted I don't think hardly anyone from the main Nasuverse scales to Extra. there are way too many logical holes in it. that's the main problem here.
 
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TheUnshakableOne said:
I have to work early in the morning until later after noon, so I need to go to bed now, but I'll be sure to post counter arguments and post additional information that I haven't posted yet from Tsukihime and FGO Mats from a translation team we love to use here lol

Edit: also, I'll be providing stuff using what is proposed in the OP as well to further support my argument
Click to expand...
I want to repost this because I still have quite a lot to say. But I have to work now so it will be a while before I can sit down and type it out.
 
RandomGuy said:
the Moon Cell should logically have Unified Language even if Gilgamesh does not. i cant speak on Gilgamesh getting it or not since this forum doesnt separate CCC Gilgamesh from the normal version, even though one operates under an entirely different cosmology (Universe of Observation), but the Moon Cell should have it meaning BB and co. should meaning Gilgamesh should at least get resistance to it. and I see no reason why the Moon Cell can't copy Unified Language, since its job is copying everything on Earth, unless there are anti-feats.

and every user of the Five Magics (aka not many) should be considered 1-a via hax due to the nature of the five magics requiring Root access. whether this scales to AP or not is up for question. only one I think that could possibly qualify for 1-a AP is Zelretch due to how he uses the Second Magic with his Jewel Sword. but that can be argued against.

so possible 1-as in my opinion should be

Mooncancer BB due to the Moon Cell logically recording Unified Language

CCC Kiara for the same reasons.

Hakuno when he/she became the Moon Cell briefly in Extra? guess they dont have a page though so guess it isn't important.

Arcueid due to being stated to be above "Ryougi Shiki" and can treat the Moon Cell like a reality marble and has authority over it.

any Five Magics user in whatever specific magic they are wielding.

Gilgamesh is only a possibility. the others though should be for sure. Gilgamesh and the playables should at least resist those hax though since they could fight BB and Kiara.

overall this is not many people and far from all of the 2-as. and I dont think saying a single piece of evidence is not enough so long as it is logical. and it's not like Unified Language would give a billion different 1-a powers. and I think using the argument of the creator forgetting about the ability isn't really a solid line of thinking. and we don't even know if that's true in the first place. and just because some other entities in Nasuverse may be above the Moon Cell doesn't mean they have those hax considering most things in the verse hasn't even interacted with Moon Cell fused beings. and its not like Unified Language automatically makes everything in the Moon Cell 1-a. Unified Language could be the only thing it has recorded that is 1-a. That's a big difference from a complete 1-a character or a character with a bunch of 1-a hax. granted I don't think hardly anyone from the main Nasuverse scales to Extra. there are way too many logical holes in it. that's the main problem here.
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Moon cell store every parallel world, i mean your thing is like tell he could have store Void shiki because she from earth or store archetype earth when we know her>him.

Not all true magic need directly Root access, and you know that in the time of Medea, true magic was the common magic?

The Arceuid being stated above "Ryougi Shiki" is just mentionned one time in a interview and Nasu word like that was never considered as eligible + contradict by every feat and statement done in the verse by the two.

I mean praticaly any high tier god like Amaterasu scale above moon cell, full beast scale above CCC kiara, LB Zeus and FP Excalibur have killed Sephar when she was comparable of moon cell (and we have litteraly nero using the power of Venus being supperior to this), and Maou nobu who stated to be able to kill buddha (like Saver and Kiara). So many people scale.

And for unified language Atlantis civilization and Olympus are much much older than Gilgamesh and they still have their own language so it's praticaly sure that the tower of babel is much older than his reign
 
Regidian said:
Moon cell store every parallel world, i mean your thing is like tell he could have store Void shiki because she from earth or store archetype earth when we know her>him.

Not all true magic need directly Root access, and you know that in the time of Medea, true magic was the common magic?

The Arceuid being stated above "Ryougi Shiki" is just mentionned one time in a interview and Nasu word like that was never considered as eligible + contradict by every feat and statement done in the verse by the two.

I mean praticaly any high tier god like Amaterasu scale above moon cell, full beast scale above CCC kiara, LB Zeus and FP Excalibur have killed Sephar when she was comparable of moon cell (and we have litteraly nero using the power of Venus being supperior to this), and Maou nobu who stated to be able to kill buddha (like Saver and Kiara). So many people scale.

And for unified language Atlantis civilization and Olympus are much much older than Gilgamesh and they still have their own language so it's praticaly sure that the tower of babel is much older than his reign
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starting off with Arc first. Archetype Earth is nigh-featless and is entirely featless in terms of her being serious, and Void using her Root powers is entirely featless. statements are valid as long as they aren't contradicted. that statement was very direct and to the point. Void has no feats yet and is 1-a still. there is also not really any concrete statements about Archetype Earth's hax or overall capabilities. she's one of the more vague ones just like Void.

as for the Moon Cell, that's a good point. though I find it kinda hard to believe that it can't record a language used by the entire human race at once point. i never really argued for Gilgamesh specifically having Unified Language though.

also I don't think anyone from the main Nasuverse scales to Extra. Beast Kiara was not in control of the Moon Cell, and if i remember correctly was stated to be on a lower scale. that was the only possible connection you could really make to the Moon Cell. Extra overall works very very differently from the main verse and has an entirely different cosmology with different rules. i find many 2-a Nasuverse characters to be questionable honestly. extra and every extra version of a character should not scale to main Nasuverse. it creates way too many logical problems.

and Ive heard differently in terms of True Magic. Ill check on it though to be sure. I'm pretty sure Aoko connected directly to the Root for her Fifth Magic though. Again though that wouldn't be AP related.
 
RandomGuy said:
starting off with Arc first. Archetype Earth is nigh-featless and is entirely featless in terms of her being serious, and Void using her Root powers is entirely featless. statements are valid as long as they aren't contradicted. that statement was very direct and to the point. Void has no feats yet and is 1-a still.

as for the Moon Cell, that's a good point. though I find it kinda hard to believe that it can't record a language used by the entire human race at once point. i never really argued for Gilgamesh specifically having Unified Language though.

also I don't think anyone from the main Nasuverse scales to Extra. Beast Kiara was not in control of the Moon Cell, and if i remember correctly was stated to be on a lower scale. that was the only possible connection you could really make to the Moon Cell. Extra overall works very very differently from the main verse and has an entirely different cosmology with different rules. i find many 2-a Nasuverse characters to be questionable honestly. extra and every extra version of a character should not scale to main Nasuverse. it creates way too many logical problems.
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We have many other connection BB of fgo in the one of CCC when she have lose her control over moon cell and she have explicit tell that her summer version was as good as before.
We have all the Zeus and Sephar i don't understand how you want this to not be a connection with Extra when it's like a game in itself. Amaterasu being able to suppress moon cell and we have god comparable to her in fgo. And actually we have Kiara fgo being tell to be comparable to her CCC counterpart. (And all the thing of Maou nobu being able to kill Buddha which is for now know as only CCC kiara and Saver)


I mean seriously i don't see where your got only connection.

being serious actually doesn't change anything as her existance of being the "extension" of Gaia, which is alredy tell to be lower than The root. Void have multiple statement, when the arceuid thing was mentioned one time by Nasu, and is contradicted by what we know of the lore except if you want to tell that Gaia> The Root
 
Regidian said:
We have many other connection BB of fgo in the one of CCC when she have lose her control over moon cell and she have explicit tell that her summer version was as good as before.
We have all the Zeus and Sephar i don't understand how you want this to not be a connection with Extra when it's like a game in itself. Amaterasu being able to suppress moon cell and we have god comparable to her in fgo. And actually we have Kiara fgo being tell to be comparable to her CCC counterpart. (And all the thing of Maou nobu being able to kill Buddha which is for now know as only CCC kiara and Saver)


I mean seriously i don't see where your got only connection.

being serious actually doesn't change anything as her existance of being the "extension" of Gaia, which is alredy tell to be lower than The root. Void have multiple statement, when the arceuid thing was mentioned one time by Nasu, and is contradicted by what we know of the lore except if you want to tell that Gaia> The Root
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the BB in CCC was just an a normal BB that wasn't fused with the Moon Cell that was sent by the Moon Cell to my knowledge. even VS wiki acknowledges this I believe since she has a separate profile.

again, I dont think Extra version of characters should be compared to main Nasuverse, meaning that main Nasuverse Amaterasu scaling to Extra is pretty iffy. I mean look at Gilgamesh. He has like no 2-a anything in main Nasuverse. all of his stuff comes from weird CCC scaling, to which some people are arguing isn't even his original power that he got. but even if it was, its a Gilgamesh created by the Moon Cell in an entirely different reality that is essentially a different cosmology with different laws. really not buying main Nasuverse Gilgamesh scaling at all. Kiara has shown nothing in Grand Order to suggest she's on her CCC counterparts level. all i've read is that she became like her CCC counterpart in terms of character.

you're assuming Arcueid's AP is the same as her potential hax. but even then we don't know her overall power. there is nothing to suggest she is limited to just Gaia. heck her origin doesn't even come from Gaia, but Crimson Moon. I think Arc should just be a likely or possibly 1-a. she has no concrete anti-feats or statements at all. it's just vague on how she is superior to Void. likely hax that haven't been explored. regardless, even if the exact means is unknown, being directly stated to be above a 1-a character by the author should qualify for 1-a, or at the very least possibly 1-a. by your logic Void shouldn't be 1-a because she's in a human body, since you think Archetype isn't 1-a due to being associated with Gaia. it just doesn't make much sense with all due respect.
 
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RandomGuy said:
the BB in CCC was just an a normal BB that wasn't fused with the Moon Cell that was sent by the Moon Cell to my knowledge. even VS wiki acknowledges this I believe since she has a separate profile.

again, I dont think Extra version of characters should be compared to main Nasuverse, meaning that main Nasuverse Amaterasu scaling to Extra is pretty iffy. I mean look at Gilgamesh. He has like no 2-a anything in main Nasuverse. all of his stuff comes from weird CCC scaling, to which some people are arguing isn't even his original power that he got. but even if it was, its a Gilgamesh created by the Moon Cell in an entirely different reality that is essentially a different cosmology with different laws. really not buying main Nasuverse Gilgamesh scaling at all.

you're assuming Arcueid's AP is the same as her potential hax. but even then we don't know her overall power. there is nothing to suggest she is limited to just Gaia. heck her origin doesn't even come from Gaia, but Crimson Moon. I think Arc should just be a likely or possibly 1-a. she has no concrete anti-feats or statements at all. it's just vague on how she is superior to Void. likely hax that haven't been explored. regardless, even if the exact means is unknown, being directly stated to be above a 1-a character by the author should qualify for 1-a, or at the very least possibly 1-a. by your logic Void shouldn't be 1-a because she's in a human body, since you think Archetype isn't 1-a due to being associated with Gaia. it just doesn't make much sense with all due respect.
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Gilgamesh of CCC was not made by the Moon cell... He litteraly tell it himself the first time we see him that he got summoned from throne of heroes. And for BB she litteraly the CCC one tell by her, in the event, and even in her mat if i remember

I tell that nor her AP nor her Hax have this level, there is nothing that suggest that she is not limited to gaia when litteraly all of her know power are based on earth and gaia.

Don't have any vague ln how she is supperior in Void as Nasu word are litteraly contradicted by himself many time and even the lore and cosmology of the verse tell otherwise. And using Crimson Moon is even less a good feat as he was beat by zeltrich and just a Type.. and she was not created by Crimson moon but other True ancestors

You know that Void shiki have her 9-B key litteraly because she use the body of shiki ryougi to manifest ? And she don't even need it to exist, it's just that she manifest by using it (in fgo the body of shiki ryougi is technically dead and we still see void talk to the prota in the prologue of knk event). And archetype isn't just associated with Gaia she litteraly tell herself to be part of it.


And in the actual interview he doesn't even have classified them, he just have tell who are the three strongest
 
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But anyway need to stop derailing, if you want to talk about Archetype earth possible scaling, you should lake an another thread
 
Regidian said:
But anyway need to stop derailing, if you want to talk about Archetype earth possible scaling, you should lake an another thread
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? this thread is about Root scaling is it not? how is it derailing then? if it is then sorry, but I dont see how. this thread went from Sieg and Angra to the Moon Cell to Gilgamesh. doesn't seem to be about a set of specific characters. and our discussion was about multiple things, not just that one.
 
RandomGuy said:
? this thread is about Root scaling is it not? how is it derailing then? if it is then sorry, but I dont see how. this thread went from Sieg and Angra to the Moon Cell to Gilgamesh. doesn't seem to be about a set of specific characters. and our discussion was about multiple things, not just that one.
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People was alredy tell that ushakable should create an another thread for that, itls why i tell that
 
TheUnshakableOne said:
It was... just hax only
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Dude, how can that possibly be hax only if you are literally arguing the MCs and BB have reached their Origin is why they would have 1-A hax

You do know that's why they have their 2-A AP in the first place yeah?

Also, kinda funny how you went out of your way to not bring this up to anyone when you were in the same revision server as everyone else, because you knew nobody there would agree with you. Instead of invading my CRT, i'd appreciate if you just take that wankfest of a post into a CRT of your own.
 
CrimsonStarFallen said:
Dude, how can that possibly be hax only if you are literally arguing the MCs and BB have reached their Origin is why they would have 1-A hax

You do know that's why they have their 2-A AP in the first place yeah?

Also, kinda funny how you went out of your way to not bring this up to anyone when you were in the same revision server as everyone else, because you knew nobody there would agree with you. Instead of invading my CRT, i'd appreciate if you just take that wankfest of a post into a CRT of your own.
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I have a response for that actually regarding her AP, and yes, I'll talk about how my points relates to this CRT.

And I don't see this as wank. I find my points to be very legitimate and very founded. I feel very passionate about it as well lol

Brb break time is over for me. Was typing fast.

Edit: on second thought; I'll make my own CRT in the future about this. I think it'll be more..... beneficial.
 
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So except my prob with the all power of nasuverse for sieg and angra, all people agree for now, seem really cool
 
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