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Dr. Roman
Oh, fine! I'll tell you! I just observed a Spirit Origin signature at the center of the Persian Gulf!
Dr. Roman
It's a Holy Grail, with an ultra-ultra-ultra-class Magical Reactor Core with more than seven times the magical energy of a Grail...
Dr. Roman
There's no doubt that this is the primordial Demonic Beast who birthed the world of Mesopotamia! The Spirit Origin belongs to Tiamat!
Dr. Roman
If this calamity, this sea, is Tiamat's Authority, our only solution is to defeat Tiamat herself!
What? You want the Holy Grail? Did you know that if you give me enough magical energy, I could be a wish granting device? |
Authority [Miracle]
Kennou. Authorities are special abilities that fall into a different category than Codecasts, Skills, and Noble Phantasms.
An Authority is a power that is on the level of creating a world, and includes things like altering events, time-flow manipulation, and kingdom building.
Authorities existed in the age known as the Age of Gods, which was about 6000 years ago, but after entering the Common Era human civilization advanced to the point where Authorities were no longer needed, and so Authorities became a relic of the past.
Normal skills achieve a certain result based on some logical process or principle, but Authorities realize a result simply because the user has the right to do so.
A God Spirit Class Servant should naturally possess Authorities, but to use them in the modern age requires a corresponding compensation to be paid (involving strain/damage inflicted on the user).
In CCC the one who swallowed up Moon Cell has reached a level of power that is Authority class.
Romani Archaman
Mash Kyrielight, your lifespan is nearing its limit.
Romani Archaman
Just like humanity has no future past 2019, you have no future beyond that time.
Romani Archaman
This was decided at the beginning.
You can't stop it, I can't stop it. No one can stop it.
Romani Archaman
Even the Grail, the supposedly omnipotent wish granter, cannot change this fate.
Romani Archaman
After all, the Grail is merely a shadow that fell just one step lower from a higher dimensional phase. A great crystallized magical resource.
Romani Archaman
Calling it an omnipotent wish granter is like saying you can buy anything with money.
Romani Archaman
The truth is, the Grail can only execute what a human envisions. It is not omnipotent. Don't be mistaken about that.
Romani Archaman
Mash Kyrielight, your lifespan is nearing its limit.
Romani Archaman
Just like humanity has no future past 2019, you have no future beyond that time.
Romani Archaman
This was decided at the beginning.
You can't stop it, I can't stop it. No one can stop it.
Romani Archaman
Even the Grail, the supposedly omnipotent wish granter, cannot change this fate.
All Holy Grails are capable of the same, including Gilgamesh's Uruk Grail and Goetia's Singularity Holy Grails.The only Grail that will be upgraded is the grail in Fuyuki, that can make a path to the root.
Only the greater grail have show to connect to the Root, the other function just like lesser grail (who can do wish too), like how all human in requiem have lesser grail.All Holy Grails are capable of the same, including Gilgamesh's Uruk Grail and Goetia's Singularity Holy Grails.
The one from Fuyuki and the ones from Goetia are the same, it is said over FGO:Only the greater grail have show to connect to the Root, the other function just like lesser grail (who can do wish too), like how all human in requiem have lesser grail.
Dr. Roman
Do you remember Fuyuki's Greater Grail? The Magical Reactor Core that caused the Fuyuki Holy Grail War?
Mash
Holy Grail War?
You mean the Holy Grail from the legend?
Mash
The magical chalice that is the root of all magecraft, the
one that is said to grant its holder's wishes?
Olga Marie
Yes, that's the one.
Olga Marie
Mages in Fuyuki City competed for the Grail, and in order
to activate it summoned seven Heroic Spirits—
Dr. Roman
The "Holy Grail" is a relic that can grant wishes.
A vessel that contains tremendous amounts of magical
energy.
Dr. Roman
Lev probably got his hands on the Grail in some form,
and misused its power.
Dr. Roman
Rather, it's impossible to travel through time
and change the past without the Grail. Seriously.
Dr. Roman
You will run into intel regarding the Grail during your
investigation of the singularity.
Dr. Roman
Even if you correct history, leaving the Grail will put us
back to square one.
Dr. Roman
You must either secure the Holy Grail, or destroy it.
Gilgamesh
You must have acquired a fine magical reactor core. [He is referring to the Holy Grail that Enkidu has adquired]
Dr. Roman
It's a Holy Grail, with an ultra-ultra-ultra-class Magical Reactor Core with more than seven times the magical energy of a Grail..
"Next step――――that's certainly serious, but... Even though the details are different, all sorceries are a way to reach the origin! What does it have to do with the Holy Grail?"
"No. First of all, there's only one administrated land in Japan that can activate a sorcery. I know the ley line in Fuyuki is first-class, but there's not enough distortion to connect to the origin."
"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"
"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall. The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."
Servant summoning and wish granting is done by the Greater Grail. The Lesser Grail is just made to help to store the servant souls and summon the Greater Grail:the other function just like lesser grail (who can do wish too)
"Of course, it is only the vessel. It is empty. Rin said it earlier that the Holy Grail is in spirit form. What we maintain is a well-made replica of the Holy Grail. We use this as the catalyst to draw down the real Holy Grail and transform it into a Grail that grants wishes.
Dr. Roman
Do you remember Fuyuki's Greater Grail? The Magical Reactor Core that caused the Fuyuki Holy Grail War?
Dr. Roman
It was originally made from the dissected body of a certain mage.
Dr. Roman
The greatest of geniuses. The greatest of miracles.
Dr. Roman
This mage had her Magical Circuits removed and used as the basis for the system.
Dr. Roman
This was a special case of turning the small system that is a human body into a real universe.
Dr. Roman
And this Singularity is similar. It's a small universe made from the Magical Circuits of a certain mage.
Dr. Roman
A Reality Marble that can exist outside of the temporal axis, for as long as it has magical energy...
Dr. Roman
That is the true nature of Solomon's base.
That's why we had to call it this:
Dr. Roman
The Grand Temple of Time, Reality Marble Solomon.
Ars Paulina.
The Second Noble Phantasm. The Time Temple Solomon. The last stage for FateGO's first part.
It compiles the human history converted into magic energy, a governed space.
It exists in the imaginary space separated from the normal flow of time.
Goetia himself remains within this Temple, grinning and laughing as he assures each and every era being extinguished.
It is a Reality Marble that Goetia fabricated by amplifying the remains of King Solomon; its structure is the same as Fate/stay night's Justicia's Great Holy Grail.
So? They are all the same as per FGO. If you accept that the Fuyuki Grail is 1-A in hax, then that makes all the other Holy Grails or thing beyond Holy Grails on the same tier.......the one being use is this thread is the Fuyuki Grail.
Requiem show that the lesser one can transmit the wish to the greater it's like how people can use their personnal holy grail to unconsciously summon their servant (the in requiem their holy grail can just summon servant and nothing other)Servant summoning and wish granting is done by the Greater Grail. The Lesser Grail is just made to help to store the servant souls and summon the Greater Grail:
It's still the Greater Grail granting the wish in that case.Requiem show that the lesser one can transmit the wish to the greater it's like how people can use their personnal holy grail to unconsciously summon their servant (the in requiem their holy grail can just summon servant and nothing other)
And for the rest The greater grail is just 1-A Hax by granting whish since it's the only moment when the Root is used, so if not whishing then no 1-A even if you have more energy than the holy grail or have many grail itself (and we have just two "greater holy grail" who are the one of fuyuki and the one made by using solomon remain) but since the solomon one is not used for grating whish he will not have the 1-A hax of the granting wish
I knew this man was dangerous in a way unique to mages. Simply put, he lacked the sense of morality.
But, his burning passion and love for humanity were unwavering.
I signaled my consent.
This Greater Grail was not to be used to reach the Root, but to grant one man's wish.
The very premise is wrong.
As long as life exists, We can fix nothing.
It must be redone. That is the only option. Everything must be redone, and perfected right from the beginning.
What must be erased is not merely history, nor the ecosystem, nor continents, nor time itself.
We must begin from true nothingness.
Our plan was to re-create this planet from its beginning.
In order to do so, considerable resources are required. We need a truly massive amount of fuel.
For example, the massive amount of energy generated by incinerating all life on this planet.
But... a one-time harvest will not be enough. We will need to draw from the past, the present, and the future of the whole world.
One second. One minute. One hour. One day. One month. One year. Energy generated in each of these time spans will be harvested going backwards in time.
That should work... Three thousand years' worth of the planet's most potent energy.
Once it is collected, bound, and controlled, our task can be accomplished.
Our kindred, the portents We scattered across the land:
We write here of our indignation.
We shall leave a path for our kin who follow behind Us.
Build up a Temple. Pile up the bands of light.
We need every existing resource to destroy Humanity. We need every second of eternity to forget Humanity.
Seek the way to the Final Singularity. There you shall find Us, on the Throne of the King of Mages...
D:Solomon
—The Grand Caster, Mage King Solomon!
Dr. Roman
A Grand Class!?
Is he saying he was chosen by the Root!?
In order to not let Pluto enter the planet's atmosphere, the Six Sisters fought it and killed each other at the same time, and its blood covered the whole planet as a result. The gray cloud is said to be a shield that the Six Sisters placed.
Explanation 03: The Great Rift
Of the Six Sisters who lead the A-Rays, the youngest sister created this great crevice that split the earth in two.
It was not intentionally created by the Six Sisters. Instead, as Ether Liners slew the youngest Sister, her death struggle rent a crack in the earth.
By the way, even though “Magic” has been lost in the Land of Steel, the Six Sisters were indeed “Real Magic Users”.
Aoko: In the first place, magic's kind of like the reward for a magus who has arrived at the "Whirl of the Root", and even if that caster doesn't have the physical ability to use it, just having a path to the Root lets him mystically do anything. In other words, he becomes the richest person in the world."
Connection to the Root is not enough to qualify for 1-A, not because you connect to it you can used it power,Heck, if just the connection to the Root is already enough to qualify for 1-A, then all the Grands should be 1-A since they are chosen by the Root:
In summary, if the Grail, those born from it and its guardian have 1-A via reality warping hax, then everyone who has the same capabilities via other Grails or who has already completed the path to the Root, should have the same level of hax.
none of the Grand are chosen by the Root, they chosen by Alaya litteraly tell in London and it's why Quirinus was an exception (because Alaya doesn't invok God habitualy). And how being chose by a thing give you tier lol?
And True magic are litteraly people that have "reached" the Root but never touch it, as they will be erased if tried, so still not scale to the Root even more when True magic was the common thing in Age of God, True magic is litteraly just the ability to use the energy from the Root but praticaly none of them are Root level (litteraly why True heroic spirit are beyond them and that Avalon can repel theml
Aoko: I mean that no one touching the Root has ever come back. On a global scale. You touch it, you cease to exist on the spot. The very moment the likes of a human soul touches it, it’ll go back to “where it came from" or be absorbed into the Root, or something.
For Goetia is just because his wish need more magical power as line i alredy tell and show before, wish need magical power they don't come from nowhere, more complex and big your wish is, more magical power you will need, litteraly why Goetia have done that. And utilizing Holy grail =/= being one, so people being able to use holy grail will not get any tier by it as their not one.
Because the Greater Grail function is just to dump that to get a path into the root. Still remains that issue that you would be putting artifacts that are of much lesser scale than other characters into 1-A. Specially when the device it's stated many times to have pretty hard limitations.Still doesn't understand why you want scale people that have more magical energy than the holy grail when it have nothing to do with their hax? Having greater energy for a holy grail meaning just being able to do better wish. And people having better magical energy than holy grail just mean that they have better energy than a thing that acumulated energy so bruh
From London, also literally what it's being said:
But if that's your point, then none of the upgrades make any sense because nobody could use the Root's power.
True Magicians get energy from the root, that's pretty clear and it isn't contradicted that quote.
He still has and can make Holy Grails. Also, as I said, Ars Paulina is basically a better version of the Greater Grail.
Because the Greater Grail function is just to dump that to get a path into the root. Still remains that issue that you would be putting artifacts that are of much lesser scale than other characters into 1-A. Specially when the device it's stated many times to have pretty hard limitations.
Having grail doesn't give anything, grail by themselves are nothing valuable except their capacity for wish. And all holy grail are made, the people that have made holy grail don't have any 1-A power
Angra isn't a thing until he is born, in which case he overtakes Sakura and becomes a Beast as per the interview from Heaven's Feel III.Aangra and Sieg ARE the grail, one is fused with it while the other is it's terminal
also the grail drectly uses the power of the root
That Mash one about the limits of the grail is kinda loaded. There are a few potential implications depending on how you look at it, with none of them being consistent with other mentions or showings of the greater grail. However, what is likely meant here is in fact something consistent with what we know. The grail (in Fate/Zero) only accepts a wish using the method the person knows, i.e Kerry's wish to save humanity will use a repeated application of sacrificing the few to save the many. So I guess what Roman is saying is that no one can think up a method to save Mash, and when granting a wish, rather than just generate something out of nowhere (because that in fact would cause a lot of issues with the counter forces and stuff) it only does it via a method that someone can think ofThis had once been a term pointing out to the "wish granting machine that could grant any wish", but in Extra it's referring to the "right to use the Moon Cell."
If you browse through the vast records of Earth simulations stored in the Moon Cell, you are sure to find the Earth with the future you desire.
All you, you who have earned the right to use the Moon Cell, have to do is tell it this:
"Recreate my ideal future."
The Moon Cell should quickly move things forward so that the Earth will take the shape of that future.
For the Moon knows how, it knows all that is to be done to make it so.
So due to being a separate universe made of the circuits of a magus, they are similar, that's the comparison. There is no comparison in power, nothing says they can both grant wishes, or reach the root. This is the extent of their comparison, nothing can even scale hereDr. Roman
This was a special case of turning the small system that is a human body into a real universe.
Dr. Roman
And this Singularity is similar. It's a small universe made from the Magical Circuits of a certain mage.
Dr. Roman
A Reality Marble that can exist outside of the temporal axis, for as long as it has magical energy
This is the fundamental misunderstand that seems to have spanwed all your comments. There is a rather large difference between a lesser grail, and the greater grail, that's the issue. Most of the comparisons (outside of the Ars Paulina one) are made to lesser grails, as shown by the mention of 7 of them, of them being challices, of them being used by Goetia, etc. Lesser grails are able to, in a limited capacity, grant wishes, we see this with Drake as well, where it's subconsciously granting her desires.So? They are all the same as per FGO. If you accept that the Fuyuki Grail is 1-A in hax, then that makes all the other Holy Grails or thing beyond Holy Grails on the same tier
This isn't exactly disproving that it's a path to the root. What this is saying is that it's only function is not to bring a magus there, but to grant a wish, and thats what this man's reason for using it is, not to reach the root, but to get his wish. Nothing here says it isn't connected to the RootThis Greater Grail was not to be used to reach the Root, but to grant one man's wish.
No, Goetia doesn't use it because nothing ever implies he can. He had 7 lesser grails and never had control over Fuyuki's one.Goetia doesn't use that because his mission required something greater. He made seven holy grails and had control over the Fuyuki one, and all of that wasn't enough for his wish. But as I posted, his stuff is already equal or superior to the Fuyuki's Holy Grail. Reaching the Root is not really that high of a guarantee of power, so why would he want to use that? His wish required something greater than what we know that the current True Magic users can realize.
This exchange reeks of early FGO mistranslation, because it has never been implied after this that a grand is chosen by the root, and I believe the Japanese never says this either.D:Solomon
—The Grand Caster, Mage King Solomon!
Dr. Roman
A Grand Class!?
Is he saying he was chosen by the Root
This does not mean that true magic scales to the root, in any way. Something coming from there is different than something using the power of the root. So the 6 sisters point is also null. The 6 sisters thing also doesn't exactly make sense when you consider the fact that Zelretch with one of those magics beat a stronger type (Brunestud is referred to as related to the final boss of Notes by Nasu).Aoko: In the first place, magic's kind of like the reward for a magus who has arrived at the "Whirl of the Root", and even if that caster doesn't have the physical ability to use it, just having a path to the Root lets him mystically do anything. In other words, he becomes the richest person in the world."
Tiamat's spirit origin was about lesser grails, like the onea Goetia is using to overturn the singularities, and that we use to power up servants, not seven greater grail as that doesn't even exist.
Enkidu's is similarly a lesser grail, as we see he literally has the singularity's grail inside him.
The issue is that you're not seeing that distinction when you're reading this stuff over, and you're immediately going "Grail=Fuyuki Grail"
Dr. Roman
Do you remember Fuyuki's Greater Grail? The Magical Reactor Core that caused the Fuyuki Holy Grail War?
There was a need to use a full Grail just to open it. It's the entire thing about the 3rd part. Darius used the entire Grail War just to get the box open, not to fulfill his wish.Not sure what the point is with the Prillya thing, or how Pandora's box being made by divine spirits 6000 years ago proves its superior to the greater grail
He had Lev being capable of entering the Singularity without any problem. The only thing guarding the Greater Grail is Artoria Alter, which you can defeat, so it should pose no problem for the Demon Gods.No, Goetia doesn't use it because nothing ever implies he can. He had 7 lesser grails and never had control over Fuyuki's one.
Olga Marie
It's a lie, right? It's just an illusion, right, Lev?
Lev
It's real. I've connected the dimensions for you.
Having the Holy Grail allows me to do so.
Lev
Now behold, descendant of Animusphere.
Behold your folly!
Not disproving that it's a path to the root. Just that isn't an exclusive thing of the Fuyuki Greater Grail, nor its only function. So all it's acts shouldn't be considered 1-A. Sieg reality warping something or Angra Mainyu being born are not related to Root.This isn't exactly disproving that it's a path to the root. What this is saying is that it's only function is not to bring a magus there, but to grant a wish, and thats what this man's reason for using it is, not to reach the root, but to get his wish. Nothing here says it isn't connected to the Root
Wrong again, it's on the official NA translation.This exchange reeks of early FGO mistranslation, because it has never been implied after this that a grand is chosen by the root, and I believe the Japanese never says this either.
Dr.ロマン
グランドのクラス、だって……!?
根源に選ばれた英霊とでも言うつもりか…·!
This does not mean that true magic scales to the root, in any way. Something coming from there is different than something using the power of the root. So the 6 sisters point is also null.
Whereas the Civilization of the Age of Divinities was of Cycles, the Civilization of the Modern Era is of Consumption.
Whereas the Age of Divinities walked alongside the Truth, the Modern Era proceeds in the recognition of the Truth.
As of the Age of Divinities, wherein the World revolved by way of the Principle of Cycles, there existed no necessity for magi to reach the Root.
It is because they were as comparable to existences that obtain Mana from the Root.
Simultaneously, as they felt it to be excessively proximate, the thought itself of obtaining the Root did not occur to them.
He is not the final boss. He is said that he would be appearing 'before the final boss'The 6 sisters thing also doesn't exactly make sense when you consider the fact that Zelretch with one of those magics beat a stronger type (Brunestud is referred to as related to the final boss of Notes by Nasu).
Please tell us about the origin of the circle's name(^^) Nasu: It was quite difficult to decide. Someone had said "Isn't Aristoteles good enough?" but I didn't like that personally. This is about the Aristoteles from Note. but that naming for me was a case of youthful indiscretion. Then, since we were going for something related to Note. anyway: "...Actually, about that story, just before the last part Type-Moon's identity will be revealed. Also, the Knight Arm it has is called Real of the World(True World)." I revealed this material I had been keeping secret, then we decided that in this case Type-Moon would be good.
Q: Is Zelretch's name that well known?
Nasu: Old bloodlines teach their children his name, and even young families have heard that "in the Clock Tower the great magician who led the World of Magecraft into battle long ago is still alive". Those who rise to the rank of Cause may eventually hear of another Magician by the name of Yumina.
Whereas the Civilization of the Age of Divinities was of Cycles, the Civilization of the Modern Era is of Consumption.
Whereas the Age of Divinities walked alongside the Truth, the Modern Era proceeds in the recognition of the Truth.
As of the Age of Divinities, wherein the World revolved by way of the Principle of Cycles, there existed no necessity for magi to reach the Root.
It is because they were as comparable to existences that obtain Mana from the Root.
Simultaneously, as they felt it to be excessively proximate, the thought itself of obtaining the Root did not occur to them.
UBW pamphlet, from the BDs I think?@Blueicemonkey
Where did you find this quote like the link to it? Maybe im not looking in the right places but i can't find it.
神代の文明は循環、現代の文明は消費。
神代は真理と共にあり、現代は真理を識ろうとする。
循環の理で世界が回っていた神代において、魔術師は根源に到達する必要がない。
だって根源から魔力を得ているようなものだから。
同時に、あまりに身近に感じられるため、根源にいたろうという考え自体思いつかない。
The context of each of these is referring to the lesser ones though. The output being compared to, the only one Chaldea has actually measured, are the grails of Goetia, which, as we see, are lesser grails. The cups are all called holy grails, they are not greater grails though, we've seen this throughout fgo and in Zero, or in FSN where Sakura has shards of that cup in her, etcSimply untrue. Bring where is mentioned that they are lesser grails. They are the same wish granting devices and they are named under the same designation as the Fuyuki Greater Grail by Roman, and compared directly to it. You have the quotes above for that.
The issue is that you are directly ignoring that they are compared with the Greater Grail directly.
Very rarely have they called the greater grail a challice. Nearly every single time they mention challice, even in the context of Fuyuki, it's referring to the cup that is filled and then used to summon the actual grailSaying that chalice = lesser grail is also wrong, since they also call the Fuyuki one a chalice.
I'm still not sure what this proves? Julian explains that what was actually necessary to utilize Pandora's Box was one grail to open it, and a second to destroy it. The grail war being fought to open the box doesn't really have any impact on that, as Julian is talking about two lesser grails, and explaining that they'd be enough to accomplish this.There was a need to use a full Grail just to open it. It's the entire thing about the 3rd part. Darius used the entire Grail War just to get the box open, not to fulfill his wish.
See you say Lev could have beat her, but we've seen that Lev isn't exactly like, reliable when it comes to combat. He is 1 shot before deciding to go Pillar form in Septem for instance. As for him using it to yeet Olga rather than grant his wish, fair enough I forgot that part. But we again run into the question of why would he not. Your claim is that the grail is unable to, mine is that it's probably a very, very bad idea to use it to do so. Considering something on a much lower scale (what DoO was gonna do in Melty Blood) was specifically noted as something that would attract a lot of bad attention, and even that had a lot of counter measures in place to not do it out in the open, something as brazen as destroying and remaking the world with a wish would absolutely activate both Counter Forces before it was even made, the planet and human preservation just wouldn't allow someone to make a wish like that. But ehHe had Lev being capable of entering the Singularity without any problem. The only thing guarding the Greater Grail is Artoria Alter, which you can defeat, so it should pose no problem for the Demon Gods.
Heck, Lev takes control of the thing to kill Olga once you deal with Artoria, so he had no problem in using it, but he chose not to.
Yes but that not being it's only function doesn't actually make those not be 1-A, let me explain.Not disproving that it's a path to the root. Just that isn't an exclusive thing of the Fuyuki Greater Grail, nor its only function. So all it's acts shouldn't be considered 1-A. Sieg reality warping something or Angra Mainyu being born are not related to Root.
Wrong again, it's on the official NA translation.
For the Japanese, it says the same exact thing:
Because the holy grail is always punching a hole into the root, it being summoned is doing that, it just has other uses besides letting you reach the root after thatI'm not sure how Grail usages unrelated to punching a hole through the root can be considered, but not magic that is directly said to be powered by the root.
Okay? Unless you want to claim its 1-A mana this is irrelevant, and even if so, things do not always scale in strength to their power source, in fact, most things on the wiki don't unless there is a good reason toAlso, it's explictly mana from the root. From UBW's Anime Q&A:
I never said he was, I said he was related to it. And that means that he is among the stronger ones either wayHe is not the final boss. He is said that he would be appearing 'before the final boss'
Is that even referring to the fight against Brunestud? Either way, it wouldn't matter if he was alone or led 300 people, because we know he is the only person who'd even hold a candle to Brunestud (even then he was weaker). The only reason Brunestud lost, as we know, is because Zelretch fought his stuff back, and beat him using Magic, which he didn't yet understand. Magecraft wouldn't really help at that point, as not only is it not relative, Brunestud would have understood it by this point.Also both the Lord El-Melloi II's materials and the latest interview with Heaven's Feel say that it was a large war, we don't even know if he was alone anymore:
What context? He explicitly says that 'Greater Grail of Fuyuki' and compares it with the other singularity grails. You are simply trying to twist the actual text at this point, giving it a context from your headcanon.The context of each of these is referring to the lesser ones though. The output being compared to, the only one Chaldea has actually measured, are the grails of Goetia, which, as we see, are lesser grails. The cups are all called holy grails, they are not greater grails though, we've seen this throughout fgo and in Zero, or in FSN where Sakura has shards of that cup in her, etc
In F they are referring to the Greater Grail, not the lesser one. The entire center of the singularity is the Greater Grail, that has already manifested. Where are you getting the that the Lesser Grail is even relevant when it has long since the Greater Grail was summoned and Artoria took guard before it?Very rarely have they called the greater grail a challice. Nearly every single time they mention challice, even in the context of Fuyuki, it's referring to the cup that is filled and then used to summon the actual grail
That a power to recreate the world on the scale that Darius needs is above the holy grails. And again, they being lesser grails is just your headcanon, since it's never said anything on the matter.I'm still not sure what this proves? Julian explains that what was actually necessary to utilize Pandora's Box was one grail to open it, and a second to destroy it. The grail war being fought to open the box doesn't really have any impact on that, as Julian is talking about two lesser grails, and explaining that they'd be enough to accomplish this.
Disregarding Lev's combat capabilities (as Demon God Pillars go from really strong to jobbing hard), Solomon can always walk around and one-shot Alter. But even then, by that point you fight in F and when Lev gains control of that grail, the incineration has already happened and there is no real threat of a mass scale Counter Force attack. The Human Order has already been heavily destabilized, something that still remains even as the EoR singularities.See you say Lev could have beat her, but we've seen that Lev isn't exactly like, reliable when it comes to combat. He is 1 shot before deciding to go Pillar form in Septem for instance. As for him using it to yeet Olga rather than grant his wish, fair enough I forgot that part. But we again run into the question of why would he not. Your claim is that the grail is unable to, mine is that it's probably a very, very bad idea to use it to do so. Considering something on a much lower scale (what DoO was gonna do in Melty Blood) was specifically noted as something that would attract a lot of bad attention, and even that had a lot of counter measures in place to not do it out in the open, something as brazen as destroying and remaking the world with a wish would absolutely activate both Counter Forces before it was even made, the planet and human preservation just wouldn't allow someone to make a wish like that. But eh
F/SN seem to distinguish between both functions. To reach the root you need 7 servant souls (or in Gil's case, a few less). But Marshmellows in his own HGW says that he won't sacrifice Solomon, so at that point the wish granting didn't had the chance to connect with the Root because there wasn't enough magical energy for that.Yes but that not being it's only function doesn't actually make those not be 1-A, let me explain.
The quote is saying it's not limited to bringing Magi to the root, it's never saying it's not a path to the root, or that it doesn't use the root to grant the wishes. It's merely saying it can grant other wishes besides doing that.
Because the holy grail is always punching a hole into the root, it being summoned is doing that, it just has other uses besides letting you reach the root after that
"The ritual that opened the "hole" would then begin. This was not carried out by the Holy Grail, but the Greater Holy Grail"
Holy Grail [Others]
The chalice that received the blood of God.
It was a holy relic of the highest grade, a wish-granting machine that fulfilled the desires of the wielder.
Its origin could be traced back to many legends, and was frequently said to be "a great wish-granting cauldron".
The Holy Grail in Fate/Stay Night was not the original, but a replica that carried the function of a "wish-granting machine".
After Heroic Spirits were defeated in the physical world, they reverted to their original forms as "terminals of power" and vanished from this time axis.
The Einzbern Holy Grail was something that entrapped the Heroic Spirits and held them temporarily.
The ritual that opened the "hole" would then begin. This was not carried out by the Holy Grail, but the Greater Holy Grail.
"The Great Holy Grail administers the system of the Holy Grail War. The Holy Grail collects the souls of the defeated heroic spirits and acts as the reactor core to activate the Great Holy Grail."
"And once the Holy Grail collects enough souls to activate the Great Holy Grail, it uses the heroic spirits' souls to open a hole. The Great Holy Grail fixes the small hole created when the heroic spirits return to their original place after their roles are fulfilled. This opens up the passage to the origin that humans cannot reach."
"Of course, this is just the first step. Your wish isn't granted even if the hole is opened. The path to the origin is too far."
"Right. It's not distorted enough to reach the origin. That's why you make a hole. If the path is obstructed, you have to destroy the wall yourself, right?"
"The Holy Grail War is the process of destroying the wall. The process accumulates enough magical energy to grant any wish. But that's just a secondary matter for the Einzbern family. And it was also an advertisement to call for the Masters, the sacrifices."
So then why are you arguing in favor of all the uses of the Greater Grail of Fuyuki being a 1-A effect? They are not always opening a path to the root. Nor it is used for that effect. Meanwhile, magicians are actually drawing mana from the root.Okay? Unless you want to claim its 1-A mana this is irrelevant, and even if so, things do not always scale in strength to their power source, in fact, most things on the wiki don't unless there is a good reason to
My bad on that.I never said he was, I said he was related to it. And that means that he is among the stronger ones either way
Whats your overall point your trying to make?What context? He explicitly says that 'Greater Grail of Fuyuki' and compares it with the other singularity grails. You are simply trying to twist the actual text at this point, giving it a context from your headcanon.
In F they are referring to the Greater Grail, not the lesser one. The entire center of the singularity is the Greater Grail, that has already manifested. Where are you getting the that the Lesser Grail is even relevant when it has long since the Greater Grail was summoned and Artoria took guard before it?
That a power to recreate the world on the scale that Darius needs is above the holy grails. And again, they being lesser grails is just your headcanon, since it's never said anything on the matter.
Disregarding Lev's combat capabilities (as Demon God Pillars go from really strong to jobbing hard), Solomon can always walk around and one-shot Alter. But even then, by that point you fight in F and when Lev gains control of that grail, the incineration has already happened and there is no real threat of a mass scale Counter Force attack. The Human Order has already been heavily destabilized, something that still remains even as the EoR singularities.
Seems like a much simple solution that it cannot. The grail is said multiple times over all the series to not be as 'omnipotent' as described, and that there are many things that it cannot do. Goetia's plan is one of the hardest and largest endeavors in the series, so it's not surprising that something that had lesser energy than the things that he could manufacture, and which was a lesser version of one of his NPs, couldn't grant his wish.
F/SN seem to distinguish between both functions. To reach the root you need 7 servant souls (or in Gil's case, a few less). But Marshmellows in his own HGW says that he won't sacrifice Solomon, so at that point the wish granting didn't had the chance to connect with the Root because there wasn't enough magical energy for that.
The quote isn't saying that the Greater Grail always punches a hole into the root. Also it's just describing the thing and its purpose. Manifestation is done with several servants dead, but the Root is not reached by then. If that was the case, then there would be no need to kill the seven, but it's explict that you need seven to make , even if the Greater Holy Grail descends before that:
The process of opening a hole:
The process that opens a hole uses servants and it's unrelated to the wish granting that the Grail can also do, both functions which can be replicated by Goetia's Grails. And they can summon usually more than the Fuyuki Greater Grail can (the one that handles the summoning), and have shown the same other effects, such as Singularity creation and other wishes such as creating a servant.
So then why are you arguing in favor of all the uses of the Greater Grail of Fuyuki being a 1-A effect? They are not always opening a path to the root. Nor it is used for that effect. Meanwhile, magicians are actually drawing mana from the root.
My bad on that.
Anyways and to summarize, my main point is that scaling just Siegfried and Angra Mainyu to 1-A due to a connection to the Grail of Fuyuki which can be used as a path to the Root seems pretty far-fretched, and seems that it would require stronger characters who can preform the same feats as the Grail of Fuyuki (Goetia, Tiamat) or who are connected to the Root in a better way (Magicians) to scale as well. It would seem ridiculous to say that Sieg can erase ORT by wishing on it on the Grail, when we know that you need a similar Grail War to Fuyuki to just wake it up.
But goetia is not the grail he just use some same for Tiamat she didn't have grail she have just magic energy compared to seven if them and magician prove themselves that they don't scale to the root they just get energy from it but you don't scale from the energy you use.Seems like he wants to be consistent
Either seig and angry mango don't scale
Or almost everyone scales including Goetia Tiamat and magicians
At least that's from what i understood
The easiest reason even whitout the fact that true magi was a common thing back in the age of god is@Regidian Then i guess we should explain why drawing powers from the root doesn't necessary mean that magicians scale in potency
Because this seems like a big misunderstanding
@ZephyrosOmega im not sure
don't you do itI mean there's going to be a multiversal planet when xeno moro becomes a thing and dc has 1-A 6th dimension iirc so why not 1-A avalon
The difference is that higher dimensions in Fate have an already very defined definition, which is definetly not 1-A lol.I mean there's going to be a multiversal planet when xeno moro becomes a thing and dc has 1-A 6th dimension iirc so why not 1-A avalon
Ah yes, the 6th dimension being 6-D is "cherry picking". Love to see it.Sounds like cherry picking to me for the sake of some sort of made up, psuedo, consistent scaling.