@Paul_Frank
Can you please explain your logic that "proliferation of unnecessary worlds" or "growing new timelines" doesn't require energy when we are told that energy shortages cause timelines to end early?
I didn't say that? I specifically said that's the one thing that does take energy, not that there's some limit to worlds, specifically that the proliferation is the issue if anything, this is further explained in FGO as well
I'd like to mention that this skill has a rank of C and not EX
It means this ability can be measured, whereas a skill that has a rank of EX has this rank because it cannot be measured normally within the classification of skills and other stuff.
This is the worst argument I've ever read, firstly, using Ranks is the biggest meme ever, secondly, EX doesn't mean can't be measured, it just breaks whatever scale is used in that moment, which can also be don't by having weird stats like Edison
On the subject of the timelines and 8-D Moon Cell, the evidence I have seen to me strongly suggests that the timelines are best interpreted as non-physical, that there are a finite amount of them, and that the "cuts to the eighth dimension" scan is not best interpreted as layers of superiority. I'll break my view on that down here:
Moon Cell's Nature:
There are many scans and statements in the series that explain rather concretely that the timelines in the Moon Cell are non-physical, and only represent data, not space time continuums. The wizards who enter them exist as spiritrons, but the worlds themselves are digital.
The said evidence is provided below, important parts bolded:
The setting makes it abundantly abundantly clear that the world of the Moon Cell is a digital one, and that one must abandon their physical body and take on Spiritron form in order to enter. It is also clear that the "higher dimension" of the soul is not spatial or physical in any way.
Why is this clear, you haven't provided any reason for that besides "well it says the soul is higher d therefore its not in an applicable way"
Amount of Timelines
It is also the case that these timelines are finite. We can note that it says "Untold tens of millions of light years of light trapped within the core" but in addition to that, the Quantum Time Lock mechanism that prevents the Universe from having infinite timelines also applies to the Moon Cell:
By all indication, the Moon Cell also culls timelines, and avoids wasting data.
It never says it prevents infinite timelines, you've again, simply ignored the multiple lines I posted, so I'll just ignore this section
Dimensions of the Moon Cell
Finally, the dimensions. We've established that the term "higher dimensional" is used in a non-physical sense to refer to the soul, and that the Moon Cell is an entirely non-physical setting. From this perspective the idea of additional spatial axes seems illogical, but even moreso when you consider the evidence.
The soul being called non physical doesn't mean the dimensions don't apply to the tiering system, this is a non argument. Just because the soul is not involved in any physical phenomenon (purely due to its position as higher d and unable to be grasped) doesn't mean anything
For a verse to be given qualitative superiority for spatial dimensions (which the evidence rejects in the first place) there must be proof of qualitative superiority. The following text is the basis for said qualitative superiority:
It's very clear that BB's higher dimensional perspective is temporal, and allows her to transcend the restrictions of linear time, but this is primarily because she reached the peak of a supercomputer that stores these timelines as data, so the "data" of the past, present, and future, are all accessible to her simultaneously, which is natural given her position in the network.
Okay this section has so much wrong with it. Firstly, temporal superiority is still tier 1, this argument is irrelevant. Secondly, it specifically mentions 3 dimensional space too, showing its also spatial, then giving very clear R>F over it and time, directly saying it's like words or records in the pages of the book
Viewed from a higher dimension, even a three-dimensional object is the same as a flat scroll
Like... If the three-dimensional world was mere writing in a book, and you jumped to escape from the book, right?
The past, present, and future of the "You" that was just in that book... You'll be able to look down upon all of it as mere records
This would be a higher-dimensional perspective. Get it?
In cases like those, the entirety of time within that book would become interchangeable.
This argument is also irrelevant however because the idea that "this is all just because BB can read data" is also incorrect. You see if you read the scene you'll note that BB isn't actually the subject until the very end. Rin is simply explaining higher dimensions in general, like actually go through the scene again, you'll note that it's all just Rin explaining how dimensions work, and then ending with "and now this is what BB has".
So to reiterate, this entire section is wrong because
1: Higher temporal stuff is still tier 1
2: They specifically mention spatial too so that argument is moot to begin with
3: The arguments for BB don't affect the validity of dimensions since the explanation isn't about BB, its just about the nature of dimensions as a whole, meaning even if we assume you're correct about BB, it doesn't make dimensions not count
However, your arguments about BB aren't correct either as you'll see below
Even setting aside the other problems with this, there is no way we could use this set of information to confer multiple degrees of infinity based on a higher number of dimensions, because this is clearly not a spatial form of transcendence, but temporal, and it would be meaningless to extrapolate that further upward, as the effect cannot meaningfully be stacked.
As said above, it includes spatial very explicitly, and even temporal can be tier 1, so moving on
But that is secondary to the fact that this higher dimensional existence is explicitly not physical and can be directly accounted for through the lens of BB being able to view the data timelines in their entirety from the Core, because they are just data.
Now let's get into this argument. So again, BB is irrelevant to the validty of dimensions given how the scene actually goes. But further, the argument that it's all digital and not comparable to physical stuff is wrong too. So we're told pretty directly that the outside world and Mooncell are equally real, and that things from within can be brought out and things inside
affect reality (power sources in specific is very interesting, if the digital world were fake and just inconsequential data incomparable to space and time, having the power from inside transfer out makes no sense). Leo says it is "more real" than the outside
If that is the case, this world is in some ways more real than the real world it represents. How about you guys? What are your thoughts on this?
It also is shown to be just as real as the outside via the CCC event in FGO. In this event, the Mooncell merges with a physical location, the SERAPHIX oil rig. Not only is it able to merge with a physical location and not like, its computer systems, showing its equally as real as normal matter, but then it begins affecting the actual earth physically, drilling through it and almost destroying it, despite its protections.
Then as you know, it can affect the outside world too. You can argue "it happens slowly" but this doesn't mean it can't affect it, furthermore, we know the world has explicitly protections against that exact sort of thing, explaining exactly why it takes time. Then Last Encore comes around, and is uhh, well let's just say it's not very slow in its effects (1200 seconds or whatever).
Regardless, the fact it does affect the outside when wished on rings true, regardless of how long you think it takes, showing its not only the data it can affect. Its also explained via a combination of the mats and FSF, that if it didn't stop itself, it'd be constantly affecting the world, see here
An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth.
To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device.
And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution.
It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveillance, even understanding the workings of the planet.
The greater its enhancements, the more complicated its administration policy.
It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section.
(These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War)
However, it firmly refused to install an artificial intelligence for itself.
The observer must not have a mind.
For the observer to have a mind would result in the meaning of things being decided by the observer.
Thus, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.
So it remains impartial because otherwise it would determine things, what does this mean exactly? Well, this is explained via interviews with Nasu, and FSF, with Zelretch
“This axis is wrong… these (ruby text: light polarization lines) lines will be annihilated too…”
When the man slipped his finger into the sky, the heavenly bodies displayed on the surrounding walls began to revolve.
“Oh, this cut-off isn’t so… no, it’s the worst. That damned giant spider will wake up. It’s a century too early to face that.”
Then, as if to match his words, the pages in the book hovering in front of the man turned with a flutter, inscribing multifarious information in real-time.
The thickness of the book was about that of a standard encyclopedia.
Regardless, as the man guided his finger through the air, thousands— tens of thousands of pages were born and erased.
After continuing this activity again and again, the old man muttered as if in boredom
But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true
As seen here, the mooncell is intentionally nerfing itself so as to not simply determine what is true. In FSF, this is shown to result in worlds being changed constantly, or destroyed as Zelretch observes others (shown as the information on the pages). This is corroborated further by the eyes of the serial bomber in KnK, and Musashi
You might as well say that this is an extremely unique set of mystic eyes, which confines the naturally infinite futures into “just a single” result.
And we see that this is true, much like with the Calculation ability of the serial bomber. By determining one thing to be true, they inherently negate all other possible branches of that event, confining things to pass as they've seen, before returning to being immutable and infinite possibilities.
This is the power of Zelretch, and a power the Mooncell wants to avoid. If one were to argue that the Mooncell is just data and can only affect data and doesn't have power transcendeding reality, this wouldn't be a concern, however it is, showing that this simply can't be true. Rin says as much herself as well.
That’s what the Moon Cell Core is. …this wishing device has obtained a will, and determined the “future.” That future is the annihilation of mankind. The outside world is proceeding with that future of annihilation as its set history
This is because as Rani says, the Mooncell core, which observes reality, is higher dimensional
The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence. The Moon Cell Core knows how the human race will end. But there is no valuation of any kind in that result. The Moon Cell has within it no basis to judge the options, how to create a better future — to judge between good and evil, you could say. This is the management of the Earth was left to humanity. Or, why a third party overlooked it and did not intervene. But, if an AI with a clear basis for judgment were inserted, the Moon Cell would select the best future according to a single intelligence. — which is to say, the erasure of mankind. If they are to be ultimately destroyed, it is because now they must be destroyed
As Rani says, the core of the Mooncell is higher d, and from that perspective it has already seen the end of humanity (remember, higher dimensions can see the lower ones as flat and see all of time at once) because of this, should an AI take control, it will realize that since humanity will always die out, they might as well die now. Further, this alone disproves the idea that it can only affect the data within and only has that perspective over the data, it specifically says this in reference to the outside world, and says it has already seen how humanity will end, it has the higher d perspective over the outside world too.
So the idea that this is "just data" that is incomparable to real stuff and has no effect on it is incorrect. Further we know even more concretely this isn't true, you see, the Mooncell isn't true data, it's spiritrons, what are spiritrons, you may ask, well, the important bit is that they actually are physical in a sense. Saint Quartz, a physical object, is composed of spiritrons, being called a Quasi or Psuedo Spiritron crystal, pseudo spiritrons are what are used by everyone when doing things with spiritrons usually, including stuff like Rayshifting, where the physical body is split into them as well, but let's continue.
Back Alley Alliance says they can take any shape of size
Spiritron
Although they may morph into any variety of shapes and sizes
Crest of the Wandering Star also shows us that this "information" or spiritrons, are equal to what you think of normal physical matter like in importance, if not more so
This is a passive skill that allows Altera to absorb the lives, buildings, and concepts she destroys as spiritron-information, making her grow even larger.
Altera possesses the ability to also break buildings and beings down into spiritrons and it causes her to physically grow in size and power, further showing that these Spiritron worlds aren't some simple computer data. You see, spiritrons compose things outside of the SE.RA.PH as well, much like they compose the worlds within.
Interestingly, more evidence that the Mooncell is superior to the outside world and able to affect it, is BB being sent to is. The Mooncell sends BB because it sees Kiara is gonna do Kiara stuff in FGO and it wants to stop that. Then, BB, an AI, made of data like you argue, is able to function just like other servants (other servants are able to function in the Mooncell too btw), that is to say, she can exist just fine outside of the Mooncell, despite still being a data based AI (that's why she has the mechanical tag), hell, she even causes the entire summer event via her literal interference with reality, using power drawn from the Mooncell
It draws out the power of the Moon Cell, and she transforms into an invincible nurse. From her territory of imaginary space she brings out malicious information and rewrites the surrounding channel
Her Summer Version notes that she even contains the massive amount of upgrades she had from the digital space, saying that it would normally not be visible, but due to the erosion of reality from the evil god (which is actually just a placebo, there was no evil god, it's just her power alone), any who view her can see that all
At first glance, she seems like an ordinary perfect beautiful girl (her own words), but inside her, an absurd amount of functional devices and facilities have been compressed.
In "Fate/Extra CCC", as even A-class Wizards such as Tohsaka Rin and Rani VIII have called her a 'monster of giga structure', in the cyber world, she possesses the same volume of information as a single world.
Originally, in the material world that special characteristic wouldn't be counted...no, it wouldn't manifest, but because she possesses the trait of 'eroding reality' due to the Evil God Emulation when being observed by "those who can see", her original information processing ability...her original form compressed into the space of imaginary numbers...can be glimpsed.
This is just as said, even further proof that data is not a non physical thing far below normal reality, as data beings can exist just fine in normal reality, and even affect it, and this is on top of everything else showing why this data is so much more, and why its not true that the Mooncell can only affect data within it or view it from the higher d perspective
The following scan is what mentions an "eighth dimension."
BB is attempting to reach the Core of the Moon Cell. Recall the earlier text:
The core is separate from the seven layers. I think Chase's argument is probably that the phrase "cuts up to the eight dimension" could very easily just be referring to the Core, because it is explicitly guarding the Core that BB is attempting to enter.
I've already explained above that the argument for it being seperate from the 7 layers is illogical and based on nothing, especially since the core has been reached before, they'd update their information to say 8 layers if this were true. Further I showed that the idea of "cuts up to the 8th layer" is impossible, as the specific wording is cuts through, and even worse, the layers argument again, comes from a datebook for another game entirely, with CCC saying that the concept of these layers or floors, doesn't exist there.
However, even if that were not the case, we would still not be able to interpret these as spatial dimensions, because the Moon Cell does not have spatial dimensions. This world is purely digital, and BB describes herself as a being of information.
As stated above they specifically mention spatial dimensions, and this entire cop out of "b-but digital" doesn't work for the numerous reasons I posted, showing its just as real as the outside world, has power over the outside world, etc
So in conclusion, I do not think that the Moon Cell should be treated as containing infinite universes, rather, a finite amount of purely digital timelines. I also believe that BB's higher dimensional perspective is best view through the lens of the temporal transcendence she gains over these digital timelines by reaching the core, and I do not believe the "cuts to the eight dimension" phrase about the wall should be seen as layers of infinite superiority, as that is a one-off line in a single bad ending, it could very well just refer to the core, it can't be spatial, and it can't be qualitative superiority.
This isn't in a bad ending, please actually read the scenes you're arguing about. This is a BB channel episode as she's approaching the core
From what I have seen, the phrase about Avalon "blocking communication up to the sixth dimension" is based on a similar premise referencing the BB "higher dimensional perspective" scans, so with that being the case, Avalon should likely also stop being interpreted as something that requires several layers of infinity to damage, as there is not evidence of that being the case.
Kek I knew you'd rip this argument from Chase. Well, if only every other mat line about Avalon didn't just say communication was what was blocked, oh wait
Avalon, the Everdistant Utopia. The name of Excalibur’s sheathe, which also holds power as a Noble Phantasm. Aside from healing the user’s wounds and halting their aging, it also turns into a perfect fortress that protects against all physical interference when activated
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
Rank: EX
Type: Barrier Noble Phantasm
Defense target: 1 person
The power of the sheath of Excalibur. Expanding the sheath, it shuts out all physical interference by placing the owner in the land of the fairies
If the rank was higher, the target could even phase through attacks, among other things, from a higher dimension. That principle is close to a certain defensive Noble Phantasm that is used to target its own user.- Obscurant Wall of Chalk
Huh, well I guess they all do mention more than just communications what do you know, in fact, even the one you're talking about mentions physical interference too for instance. Hyperfocusing on "communication" to argue its not actual dimensions (which were elaborated on in CCC, and as I've said the scene makes dimensions count even if you say it doesn't apply to BB because it wasn't about her until the last few lines), is intentionally dishonest, or at best very ignorant
