Nasuverse - Moon Cell Cosmology Re-Evaluation Part 1

[Regidian]

@ShadowWhoWalks have this for you too.

Moon Cell's Nature:

It is argued that since the Mooncell is a digital world, it doesn't represent a space-time continuum, even though one of the quotes used refutes this:

BB: As long as intellectual activity is taking place here, an information life-form like myself and an organic life-form like you can interact in the same space-time.


There are multiple acknowledgments that the Mooncell has space-time, for instance:

H. C. A.
That building used to be an oil rig called Seraphix...but now, it's called SE.RA.PH, and none of the standard laws of physics apply to it.
In SE.RA.PH, time doesn't flow in only one direction. Instead, it's something that can be measured in some interesting ways.
And the spacing on the calipers used to measure it is nothing like your conception of physical space.
That's probably because time and space are both measured from a one-dimensional perspective there.
Sometimes, you can even be in two different times while in the same space. This area we're in now is proof.


Furthermore, physical objects can be converted into Spiritrons, and Spiritrons can be converted into physical objects, which happens with characters entering and exiting the Mooncell, in Rayshifting to time-travel, Ritsuka replicating Rayshifting while dreaming to create temporary physical bodies, and SE.RA.PH being converted into digital space. So there is nothing that creates a mutual exclusivity between digital space and space-time.

In fact higher spatial dimensionality is explained within the Mooncell:

BB
How could you say that...? Sure, I may have been personally responsible for Lip's creation...
...but I wasn't being malicious with her character design or anything. I just poured everything I disliked about myself into her...
...and added the fourth-dimensional pocket in her rack 'cause I thought it'd be funny...

If we look at the description of the Passionlip ability being refered to:

Breast Valley: A
Basically a recycle bin.
A function where unneeded data files are stored temporarily. Also called a trash can.
In Passionlip's case, for some reason, this icon is set in the center of her chest. To put it bluntly, it's an imaginary dimensional pocket that can contain an incredible amount of trash.
If it's waste data that Passionlip has compressed, an infinite amount can be stored, regardless of file size.


So basically 4D digital space can store infinite 3D digital data.

----

Amount of Timelines:

It is already stated that the Mooncell is a higher dimensional information space made from light, so the finite amount of light doesn't matter in questioning the infinite capacity.
The Quantum Time Lock cleans up dead-end worlds that won't branch. Some timelines getting periodically culled does not refute the multiple explicit mentions of infinite amount of timelines, as their amount will remain infinite.

----

Quantum Time Lock

4D space being acknowledged to have infinitely more space than 3D space is enough to establish spatial dimension superiority.

If a higher dimensional perspective to a 3D dimension has r>f pov, it follows that a higher dimension perspective to a 4D dimension would have r>f pov. How isn't this stackable?

 

[Paul_Frank]

@Paul_Frank

Can you please explain your logic that "proliferation of unnecessary worlds" or "growing new timelines" doesn't require energy when we are told that energy shortages cause timelines to end early?

I didn't say that? I specifically said that's the one thing that does take energy, not that there's some limit to worlds, specifically that the proliferation is the issue if anything, this is further explained in FGO as well

I'd like to mention that this skill has a rank of C and not EX
It means this ability can be measured, whereas a skill that has a rank of EX has this rank because it cannot be measured normally within the classification of skills and other stuff.

This is the worst argument I've ever read, firstly, using Ranks is the biggest meme ever, secondly, EX doesn't mean can't be measured, it just breaks whatever scale is used in that moment, which can also be don't by having weird stats like Edison

On the subject of the timelines and 8-D Moon Cell, the evidence I have seen to me strongly suggests that the timelines are best interpreted as non-physical, that there are a finite amount of them, and that the "cuts to the eighth dimension" scan is not best interpreted as layers of superiority. I'll break my view on that down here:

Moon Cell's Nature:

There are many scans and statements in the series that explain rather concretely that the timelines in the Moon Cell are non-physical, and only represent data, not space time continuums. The wizards who enter them exist as spiritrons, but the worlds themselves are digital.

The said evidence is provided below, important parts bolded:






The setting makes it abundantly abundantly clear that the world of the Moon Cell is a digital one, and that one must abandon their physical body and take on Spiritron form in order to enter. It is also clear that the "higher dimension" of the soul is not spatial or physical in any way.

Why is this clear, you haven't provided any reason for that besides "well it says the soul is higher d therefore its not in an applicable way"

Amount of Timelines

It is also the case that these timelines are finite. We can note that it says "Untold tens of millions of light years of light trapped within the core" but in addition to that, the Quantum Time Lock mechanism that prevents the Universe from having infinite timelines also applies to the Moon Cell:




By all indication, the Moon Cell also culls timelines, and avoids wasting data.

It never says it prevents infinite timelines, you've again, simply ignored the multiple lines I posted, so I'll just ignore this section

Dimensions of the Moon Cell

Finally, the dimensions. We've established that the term "higher dimensional" is used in a non-physical sense to refer to the soul, and that the Moon Cell is an entirely non-physical setting. From this perspective the idea of additional spatial axes seems illogical, but even moreso when you consider the evidence.

The soul being called non physical doesn't mean the dimensions don't apply to the tiering system, this is a non argument. Just because the soul is not involved in any physical phenomenon (purely due to its position as higher d and unable to be grasped) doesn't mean anything

For a verse to be given qualitative superiority for spatial dimensions (which the evidence rejects in the first place) there must be proof of qualitative superiority. The following text is the basis for said qualitative superiority:



It's very clear that BB's higher dimensional perspective is temporal, and allows her to transcend the restrictions of linear time, but this is primarily because she reached the peak of a supercomputer that stores these timelines as data, so the "data" of the past, present, and future, are all accessible to her simultaneously, which is natural given her position in the network.

Okay this section has so much wrong with it. Firstly, temporal superiority is still tier 1, this argument is irrelevant. Secondly, it specifically mentions 3 dimensional space too, showing its also spatial, then giving very clear R>F over it and time, directly saying it's like words or records in the pages of the book

Viewed from a higher dimension, even a three-dimensional object is the same as a flat scroll ​

Like... If the three-dimensional world was mere writing in a book, and you jumped to escape from the book, right?

The past, present, and future of the "You" that was just in that book... You'll be able to look down upon all of it as mere records​

This would be a higher-dimensional perspective. Get it?
In cases like those, the entirety of time within that book would become interchangeable.​

This argument is also irrelevant however because the idea that "this is all just because BB can read data" is also incorrect. You see if you read the scene you'll note that BB isn't actually the subject until the very end. Rin is simply explaining higher dimensions in general, like actually go through the scene again, you'll note that it's all just Rin explaining how dimensions work, and then ending with "and now this is what BB has".

So to reiterate, this entire section is wrong because

1: Higher temporal stuff is still tier 1
2: They specifically mention spatial too so that argument is moot to begin with
3: The arguments for BB don't affect the validity of dimensions since the explanation isn't about BB, its just about the nature of dimensions as a whole, meaning even if we assume you're correct about BB, it doesn't make dimensions not count

However, your arguments about BB aren't correct either as you'll see below

Even setting aside the other problems with this, there is no way we could use this set of information to confer multiple degrees of infinity based on a higher number of dimensions, because this is clearly not a spatial form of transcendence, but temporal, and it would be meaningless to extrapolate that further upward, as the effect cannot meaningfully be stacked.

As said above, it includes spatial very explicitly, and even temporal can be tier 1, so moving on

But that is secondary to the fact that this higher dimensional existence is explicitly not physical and can be directly accounted for through the lens of BB being able to view the data timelines in their entirety from the Core, because they are just data.

Now let's get into this argument. So again, BB is irrelevant to the validty of dimensions given how the scene actually goes. But further, the argument that it's all digital and not comparable to physical stuff is wrong too. So we're told pretty directly that the outside world and Mooncell are equally real, and that things from within can be brought out and things inside affect reality (power sources in specific is very interesting, if the digital world were fake and just inconsequential data incomparable to space and time, having the power from inside transfer out makes no sense). Leo says it is "more real" than the outside

If that is the case, this world is in some ways more real than the real world it represents. How about you guys? What are your thoughts on this?

It also is shown to be just as real as the outside via the CCC event in FGO. In this event, the Mooncell merges with a physical location, the SERAPHIX oil rig. Not only is it able to merge with a physical location and not like, its computer systems, showing its equally as real as normal matter, but then it begins affecting the actual earth physically, drilling through it and almost destroying it, despite its protections.

Then as you know, it can affect the outside world too. You can argue "it happens slowly" but this doesn't mean it can't affect it, furthermore, we know the world has explicitly protections against that exact sort of thing, explaining exactly why it takes time. Then Last Encore comes around, and is uhh, well let's just say it's not very slow in its effects (1200 seconds or whatever).

Regardless, the fact it does affect the outside when wished on rings true, regardless of how long you think it takes, showing its not only the data it can affect. Its also explained via a combination of the mats and FSF, that if it didn't stop itself, it'd be constantly affecting the world, see here

An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth.
To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device.

And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution.

It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveillance, even understanding the workings of the planet.

The greater its enhancements, the more complicated its administration policy.
It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section.
(These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War)
However, it firmly refused to install an artificial intelligence for itself.

The observer must not have a mind.
For the observer to have a mind would result in the meaning of things being decided by the observer.
Thus, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.

So it remains impartial because otherwise it would determine things, what does this mean exactly? Well, this is explained via interviews with Nasu, and FSF, with Zelretch

“This axis is wrong… these (ruby text: light polarization lines) lines will be annihilated too…”
When the man slipped his finger into the sky, the heavenly bodies displayed on the surrounding walls began to revolve.
“Oh, this cut-off isn’t so… no, it’s the worst. That damned giant spider will wake up. It’s a century too early to face that.”
Then, as if to match his words, the pages in the book hovering in front of the man turned with a flutter, inscribing multifarious information in real-time.
The thickness of the book was about that of a standard encyclopedia.
Regardless, as the man guided his finger through the air, thousands— tens of thousands of pages were born and erased.
After continuing this activity again and again, the old man muttered as if in boredom

But if Zelretch was observing, it'd become true

As seen here, the mooncell is intentionally nerfing itself so as to not simply determine what is true. In FSF, this is shown to result in worlds being changed constantly, or destroyed as Zelretch observes others (shown as the information on the pages). This is corroborated further by the eyes of the serial bomber in KnK, and Musashi

You might as well say that this is an extremely unique set of mystic eyes, which confines the naturally infinite futures into “just a single” result.

And we see that this is true, much like with the Calculation ability of the serial bomber. By determining one thing to be true, they inherently negate all other possible branches of that event, confining things to pass as they've seen, before returning to being immutable and infinite possibilities.

This is the power of Zelretch, and a power the Mooncell wants to avoid. If one were to argue that the Mooncell is just data and can only affect data and doesn't have power transcendeding reality, this wouldn't be a concern, however it is, showing that this simply can't be true. Rin says as much herself as well.

That’s what the Moon Cell Core is. …this wishing device has obtained a will, and determined the “future.” That future is the annihilation of mankind. The outside world is proceeding with that future of annihilation as its set history

This is because as Rani says, the Mooncell core, which observes reality, is higher dimensional

The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence. The Moon Cell Core knows how the human race will end. But there is no valuation of any kind in that result. The Moon Cell has within it no basis to judge the options, how to create a better future — to judge between good and evil, you could say. This is the management of the Earth was left to humanity. Or, why a third party overlooked it and did not intervene. But, if an AI with a clear basis for judgment were inserted, the Moon Cell would select the best future according to a single intelligence. — which is to say, the erasure of mankind. If they are to be ultimately destroyed, it is because now they must be destroyed

As Rani says, the core of the Mooncell is higher d, and from that perspective it has already seen the end of humanity (remember, higher dimensions can see the lower ones as flat and see all of time at once) because of this, should an AI take control, it will realize that since humanity will always die out, they might as well die now. Further, this alone disproves the idea that it can only affect the data within and only has that perspective over the data, it specifically says this in reference to the outside world, and says it has already seen how humanity will end, it has the higher d perspective over the outside world too.

So the idea that this is "just data" that is incomparable to real stuff and has no effect on it is incorrect. Further we know even more concretely this isn't true, you see, the Mooncell isn't true data, it's spiritrons, what are spiritrons, you may ask, well, the important bit is that they actually are physical in a sense. Saint Quartz, a physical object, is composed of spiritrons, being called a Quasi or Psuedo Spiritron crystal, pseudo spiritrons are what are used by everyone when doing things with spiritrons usually, including stuff like Rayshifting, where the physical body is split into them as well, but let's continue.

Back Alley Alliance says they can take any shape of size

Spiritron
Although they may morph into any variety of shapes and sizes

Crest of the Wandering Star also shows us that this "information" or spiritrons, are equal to what you think of normal physical matter like in importance, if not more so

This is a passive skill that allows Altera to absorb the lives, buildings, and concepts she destroys as spiritron-information, making her grow even larger.

Altera possesses the ability to also break buildings and beings down into spiritrons and it causes her to physically grow in size and power, further showing that these Spiritron worlds aren't some simple computer data. You see, spiritrons compose things outside of the SE.RA.PH as well, much like they compose the worlds within.

Interestingly, more evidence that the Mooncell is superior to the outside world and able to affect it, is BB being sent to is. The Mooncell sends BB because it sees Kiara is gonna do Kiara stuff in FGO and it wants to stop that. Then, BB, an AI, made of data like you argue, is able to function just like other servants (other servants are able to function in the Mooncell too btw), that is to say, she can exist just fine outside of the Mooncell, despite still being a data based AI (that's why she has the mechanical tag), hell, she even causes the entire summer event via her literal interference with reality, using power drawn from the Mooncell

It draws out the power of the Moon Cell, and she transforms into an invincible nurse. From her territory of imaginary space she brings out malicious information and rewrites the surrounding channel

Her Summer Version notes that she even contains the massive amount of upgrades she had from the digital space, saying that it would normally not be visible, but due to the erosion of reality from the evil god (which is actually just a placebo, there was no evil god, it's just her power alone), any who view her can see that all

At first glance, she seems like an ordinary perfect beautiful girl (her own words), but inside her, an absurd amount of functional devices and facilities have been compressed.
In "Fate/Extra CCC", as even A-class Wizards such as Tohsaka Rin and Rani VIII have called her a 'monster of giga structure', in the cyber world, she possesses the same volume of information as a single world.
Originally, in the material world that special characteristic wouldn't be counted...no, it wouldn't manifest, but because she possesses the trait of 'eroding reality' due to the Evil God Emulation when being observed by "those who can see", her original information processing ability...her original form compressed into the space of imaginary numbers...can be glimpsed.

This is just as said, even further proof that data is not a non physical thing far below normal reality, as data beings can exist just fine in normal reality, and even affect it, and this is on top of everything else showing why this data is so much more, and why its not true that the Mooncell can only affect data within it or view it from the higher d perspective

The following scan is what mentions an "eighth dimension."


BB is attempting to reach the Core of the Moon Cell. Recall the earlier text:

The core is separate from the seven layers. I think Chase's argument is probably that the phrase "cuts up to the eight dimension" could very easily just be referring to the Core, because it is explicitly guarding the Core that BB is attempting to enter.

I've already explained above that the argument for it being seperate from the 7 layers is illogical and based on nothing, especially since the core has been reached before, they'd update their information to say 8 layers if this were true. Further I showed that the idea of "cuts up to the 8th layer" is impossible, as the specific wording is cuts through, and even worse, the layers argument again, comes from a datebook for another game entirely, with CCC saying that the concept of these layers or floors, doesn't exist there.

However, even if that were not the case, we would still not be able to interpret these as spatial dimensions, because the Moon Cell does not have spatial dimensions. This world is purely digital, and BB describes herself as a being of information.

As stated above they specifically mention spatial dimensions, and this entire cop out of "b-but digital" doesn't work for the numerous reasons I posted, showing its just as real as the outside world, has power over the outside world, etc

So in conclusion, I do not think that the Moon Cell should be treated as containing infinite universes, rather, a finite amount of purely digital timelines. I also believe that BB's higher dimensional perspective is best view through the lens of the temporal transcendence she gains over these digital timelines by reaching the core, and I do not believe the "cuts to the eight dimension" phrase about the wall should be seen as layers of infinite superiority, as that is a one-off line in a single bad ending, it could very well just refer to the core, it can't be spatial, and it can't be qualitative superiority.

This isn't in a bad ending, please actually read the scenes you're arguing about. This is a BB channel episode as she's approaching the core

From what I have seen, the phrase about Avalon "blocking communication up to the sixth dimension" is based on a similar premise referencing the BB "higher dimensional perspective" scans, so with that being the case, Avalon should likely also stop being interpreted as something that requires several layers of infinity to damage, as there is not evidence of that being the case.

Kek I knew you'd rip this argument from Chase. Well, if only every other mat line about Avalon didn't just say communication was what was blocked, oh wait

Avalon, the Everdistant Utopia. The name of Excalibur’s sheathe, which also holds power as a Noble Phantasm. Aside from healing the user’s wounds and halting their aging, it also turns into a perfect fortress that protects against all physical interference when activated

After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.

Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
Rank: EX
Type: Barrier Noble Phantasm
Defense target: 1 person
The power of the sheath of Excalibur. Expanding the sheath, it shuts out all physical interference by placing the owner in the land of the fairies

If the rank was higher, the target could even phase through attacks, among other things, from a higher dimension. That principle is close to a certain defensive Noble Phantasm that is used to target its own user.- Obscurant Wall of Chalk

Huh, well I guess they all do mention more than just communications what do you know, in fact, even the one you're talking about mentions physical interference too for instance. Hyperfocusing on "communication" to argue its not actual dimensions (which were elaborated on in CCC, and as I've said the scene makes dimensions count even if you say it doesn't apply to BB because it wasn't about her until the last few lines), is intentionally dishonest, or at best very ignorant

 

[Deagonx]

@DontTalkDT Could you look at my post above and the responses and give your thoughts in terms of superiority?

 

[Regidian]

To help DT here some description of the thing (higher dimensional space) that BB and moon cell is compared to be in the same level.

This is the description of Universe of Record/Imaginary number space by Rin, it's see present/futur/past as one and see the 3 dimmension as flat.

On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that.

This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe.


Here the Universe of Record definition in the Material.

Universe of Record

A concept of time refers to the world or viewpoint where time is perceived as "recorded time." "Recorded" means that the three aspects of past, present, and future are perceived simultaneously. For example, for a higher-dimensional being with a perspective from some dimension above, the three-dimensional world is like a world written on a scroll, and they can perceive their past, present, and future within the scroll as a record at any time.

The center of the MoonCell's, exists as a parallel world simulator that computes all possibilities, whereas the past, present, and future exist simultaneously. Therefore, it is an example of a recorded universe.

This INS have possibility/timeline like the reality. Even thing as land, it's just not observable for being from normal universe.

.

Things (concept mostly) in Imaginary Number are more true than in the normal world.

.

And we have Tiamat who is a 4D pocket bcz INS.

Height/Weight:160 cm ~ 74000000 km²・??kg
Source: Ancient Mesopotamian Mythology
Region: Mesopotamia
Alignment: Chaotic ・ Evil
Gender: Female
The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite. In other words, she is a four-dimensional pocket.

Another thing is Kiara a character from Extra CCC that exist in Moon cell. Is tell to have her "mental structure" not being able to be represented by a superdimmensional hypercube.

「人の身で神に至ったものは数あれど……人の身のまま神を凌駕するものがいようとは。いや、そもそも……何ですかアレ！ 精神構造が超次元立方体でも表せねー！！ 腹ん中に宇宙作ってんじゃねーですよ！」
(“There are many people who have reached the gods with their human bodies, but there are those who surpass gods with their human bodies.
The mental structure can't even be represented by a superdimenshional hypercube! ! You're not making a universe in your stomach! ")

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I talked with @Migue79 and @CrimsonStarFallen (as well as @Paul_Frank) first about this and all of them let me share this information here about the culling/pruning of worlds:

I was reading the thread and thought that maybe could be helpful to mention why certain worlds are choosed to be pruned, and that would be by mentioning the fact that those worlds are stagnant ones that will never change, as commented for example in Russia by Rapustin (who say that that world is utterly devoid of hope for the future) or Da Vinci (who explain that when a branch world go too far away from their base world they get erased because they stop of evolve and the universe isn't willing to tolerate a world whose future prospects are plain to see), in Atlantis by Chiron (who say that their world past, present and future have no meaningful difference, a world with no progress or evolution), or in SIN by Jing Ke (who mentions how because they are complete they are done with no way forward, stuck nowhere to go), Qin Shi Huang (who not only admitted his world had no future but also fought trying to show that an stangnant path is superior to a changing one and thus should be the one leading instead the Chronicle Theoretical Phenomenon) as well as Mash and Da Vinci (saying that worlds with no possibility of growth are dead ends and thus they need to be eliminated), as several more examples from all the other Lostbelts, events and materials stating how the problem with the pruned world is their stagnation, actually indicating that what is wanted is for the continual grow/expasion of parallel words.

In short, the pruning of worlds happen because worlds with no possibility of evolution are useless and unnecessary to have, there are no point for their existence and actually go against the desired infinite grow of the universe.

Now, while posting this I saw how it was mentioned that the Moon Cell is just digital and can't affect the outside world/"reality", which is false as Paul and Regi have showed and explained, however I would like to further add another instance that show how the Moon Cell can affect the outside, and that would be by bringing the very recent jp event (it began last week and is still active) of the Arcade Collab Event were is explained that actually all the event was something done by the protagonist (Hakuno) of Extra/CCC in the Moon Cell, which mean that Hakuno not only affected the FGO world (the mobile timeline) but also connected it with other timelines, specifically speaking the Arcade timeline in which Sodom's Beast/Draco fought against many different other Chaldeas from other timelines (except the mobile timeline), everything just to give a happy ending to her, in the process also affecting other different Beast/higher dimensional beings like Tiamat (you know, the one having infinite volume due to have 4D space inside her) and Merlin/Lady Avalon (the character that reside and is deeply connected to Avalon, a 6D space).

 

[Deagonx]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Qawsedf234 Would you mind taking a look at the most recent argument, starting with my post above? We are trying to iron out the alleged qualitative superiority of the Moon Cell.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am a bit lost by what is going on here if I can get filled in on both sides.

 

[Deagonx]

I am a bit lost by what is going on here if I can get filled in on both sides.

TL;DR:

The Moon Cell is a supercomputer in the Fate Series that observes Earth, records the events of it, and predicts the future. Within the Moon Cell are many timelines which are currently treated as actual universes. The "core" of the Moon Cell is reached by a character named BB, who is then described as having a "higher dimensional perspective" (the description is in the first quote under my 'Dimensions of the Moon Cell') section. This, in combination with a scan in which BB encounters a wall that "cuts to the eighth dimension" is currently primary justification for this character being 1-C, as each of these dimensions are -- via the quote -- interpreted as higher levels of infinity.

In addition, there is an object named "Avalon" in Earth which is described as blocking physical interference and communications "up to the sixth dimension" and, through that same quote, is used to tier Earth itself (and people who scale to it) as multiple levels of infinity higher than they otherwise might be.

My contention, more or less, is that these should not be interpreted as higher levels of infinities due to the abundance of lore information that tells us that the world of the Moon Cell is a digital one, of data, and that BB's "higher-dimensional perspective" has nothing to do with being an additional spatial axis or a higher infinity, but rather that upon reaching the Moon Cell's core she was able to take control of the computer that is simulating these timelines digitally, and thus can see their past/present/future simultaneously as a result of that.

That's the most concise way I think I could summarize it. I'm particularly interested in what DT might think of it as he seems to have a good handle on when we can infer higher infinities.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, the Tier 1 stuff does sound iffy to me.

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah, the Tier 1 stuff does sound iffy to me.

Do you know any other staff members who would be good to contact? There aren't many who are involved with Fate, but anyone who is good with the Tier 1 stuff would be helpful, if they have the time to go through some of this.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Besides DontTalkDT and Ultima, Executor N0 is someone I feel like is most knowledgeable on Tier 1 stuff.

 

[Deagonx]

@Executor_N0 would you be able to look at my post above and share your thoughts?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

TL;DR:

The Moon Cell is a supercomputer in the Fate Series that observes Earth, records the events of it, and predicts the future. Within the Moon Cell are many timelines which are currently treated as actual universes. The "core" of the Moon Cell is reached by a character named BB, who is then described as having a "higher dimensional perspective" (the description is in the first quote under my 'Dimensions of the Moon Cell') section. This, in combination with a scan in which BB encounters a wall that "cuts to the eighth dimension" is currently primary justification for this character being 1-C, as each of these dimensions are -- via the quote -- interpreted as higher levels of infinity.

In addition, there is an object named "Avalon" in Earth which is described as blocking physical interference and communications "up to the sixth dimension" and, through that same quote, is used to tier Earth itself (and people who scale to it) as multiple levels of infinity higher than they otherwise might be.

My contention, more or less, is that these should not be interpreted as higher levels of infinities due to the abundance of lore information that tells us that the world of the Moon Cell is a digital one, of data, and that BB's "higher-dimensional perspective" has nothing to do with being an additional spatial axis or a higher infinity, but rather that upon reaching the Moon Cell's core she was able to take control of the computer that is simulating these timelines digitally, and thus can see their past/present/future simultaneously as a result of that.

That's the most concise way I think I could summarize it. I'm particularly interested in what DT might think of it as he seems to have a good handle on when we can infer higher infinities.

So, from what I see, the argument has largely to do with how the worlds in the Moon Cell aren't actual realities, just data, and with how the higher dimensions are likewise not actual axes of space, just a representation of the unique position BB holds as the administrator of a computer with access to all its data files.

Yeah, it seems that the "it's all just data" was already addressed by these bits:

Further we know even more concretely this isn't true, you see, the Mooncell isn't true data, it's spiritrons, what are spiritrons, you may ask, well, the important bit is that they actually are physical in a sense. Saint Quartz, a physical object, is composed of spiritrons, being called a Quasi or Psuedo Spiritron crystal, pseudo spiritrons are what are used by everyone when doing things with spiritrons usually, including stuff like Rayshifting, where the physical body is split into them as well, but let's continue.

Back Alley Alliance says they can take any shape of size

Crest of the Wandering Star also shows us that this "information" or spiritrons, are equal to what you think of normal physical matter like in importance, if not more so.

Altera possesses the ability to also break buildings and beings down into spiritrons and it causes her to physically grow in size and power, further showing that these Spiritron worlds aren't some simple computer data. You see, spiritrons compose things outside of the SE.RA.PH as well, much like they compose the worlds within.

And the argument itself is very weird, too. You're acting as if BB being able to look down on the Moon Cell's worlds as the administrator of the computer that creates them is somehow mutually exclusive with the higher dimensions in question forming real, proper higher-dimensional spaces, when it really isn't. The action isn't what matters, the mechanism behind it does.

A secondary argument against the Tier 1 ratings, it appears, was also:

Even setting aside the other problems with this, there is no way we could use this set of information to confer multiple degrees of infinity based on a higher number of dimensions, because this is clearly not a spatial form of transcendence, but temporal, and it would be meaningless to extrapolate that further upward, as the effect cannot meaningfully be stacked.

Which is just... incorrect. I don't really know what else to say. Temporal transcendences count for Tier 1 just as spatial ones do. See the fact that destroying a universe with 3 dimensions of space + 1 of time is Low 2-C, and not 3-A. In fact, temporal transcendences arguably qualify for Tier 1 more easily than spatial ones do.

So, yeah, all-in-all the downgrade seems fishy to me. Count me on disagree so far.

(Busy today and only came here because people kept bugging me to, so, this will probably be my only post on this thread in a while, if at all. By extension I'm also only focusing on the Moon Cell stuff and not the other bits)

 

[Deagonx]

So, from what I see, the argument has largely to do with how the worlds in the Moon Cell aren't actual realities, just data, and with how the higher dimensions are likewise not actual axes of space, just a representation of the unique position BB holds as the administrator of a computer with access to all its data files.

Yeah, the text is fairly explicit about this as well:

Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously.

Yeah, it seems that the "it's all just data" was already addressed by these bits:

Further we know even more concretely this isn't true, you see, the Mooncell isn't true data, it's spiritrons, what are spiritrons, you may ask, well, the important bit is that they actually are physical in a sense. Saint Quartz, a physical object, is composed of spiritrons, being called a Quasi or Psuedo Spiritron crystal, pseudo spiritrons are what are used by everyone when doing things with spiritrons usually, including stuff like Rayshifting, where the physical body is split into them as well, but let's continue.

Back Alley Alliance says they can take any shape of size

Crest of the Wandering Star also shows us that this "information" or spiritrons, are equal to what you think of normal physical matter like in importance, if not more so.

Altera possesses the ability to also break buildings and beings down into spiritrons and it causes her to physically grow in size and power, further showing that these Spiritron worlds aren't some simple computer data. You see, spiritrons compose things outside of the SE.RA.PH as well, much like they compose the worlds within.

Paul is mistaken there. Spiritrons are the "true essence" of a person's soul, which resides in a higher dimension. The digital timelines and the Moon Cell itself is not made up of spiritrons. Spiritrons are how humans project their consciousness into the cyberspace, but the Moon Cell itself and the timelines within it are not made of spirit particles, aside from SERAPH. The light-data is stored in photonic crystals, and wizards are able to convert themselves into "pseudo-spiritrons" as data that can enter these photonic crystals.

The nature of the "soul" can be addressed separately, but it should be clear that the timelines in the Moon Cell are just light-data in a giant photonic crystal, not soul energy.

You're acting as if BB being able to look down on the Moon Cell's worlds as the administrator of the computer that creates them is somehow mutually exclusive with the higher dimensions in question forming real, proper higher-dimensional spaces, when it really isn't. The action isn't what matters, the mechanism behind it does.

No, rather, the information we are given about higher dimensions is given in a very specific context that isn't about proper higher-dimensional spaces, in which case, we are left with no actual evidence of higher-dimensional spaces. Even the soul as well as heroic spirits are said to regard in a higher dimension, but this cannot be physical and has also been referred to as simply being "another dimension."

A soul resides in all life forms that are intelligent. It is spiritual life that is not part of any physical phenomenon.
The soul is a “will” that lies in another dimension, and that will occupies a body.

“Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension. They are an existence that transcend time.

If we really dissected the grammar here, this also tells us that it isn't referring to spatial or temporal dimensions, because the 4-D physical world is being referred to as a singular "dimension" and the "higher dimension" of the heroic spirits is singular as well, an existence that transcends time. Very similar to BB. From that perspective, there's no reason for us to regard this higher dimension as an infinitely larger or qualitatively superior layer, it is just outside time, and it isn't physical.

To your point, that does not preclude superiority, but it means that the evidence that we are currently using to establish infinite superiority is being applied incorrectly, because existing in a non-physical realm that is outside the timeline of the normal universe does not necessitate qualitative superiority. The basis through which this concept is being conflated with superiority is due to the misconception about BB: She gained atemporality (relative to the data timelines) and superiority over that data simultaneously, but that is not because the two concepts are one and the same in the verse, rather, it is because she was put in a position that had both. She became the Moon Cell.

Temporal transcendences count for Tier 1 just as spatial ones do. See the fact that destroying a universe with 3 dimensions of space + 1 of time is Low 2-C, and not 3-A. In fact, temporal transcendences arguably qualify for Tier 1 more easily than spatial ones do.

The issue is with regard to the "cuts to the eight dimension" scan being used for multiple layers of infinity based on the higher dimensional perspective. I will quote the pertinent section again, because in this leg of the discussion, it's very critical:

Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously.

A concurrent world simulator where the past present and future exist at the same time. This is the "higher dimensional perspective." She became the Moon Cell. Even if we agreed the timelines represented bonafide universes, and thus considered BB a layer of infinity above them, we still would not be able to consider her five layers of infinity above these timelines, because her ability to see past and future simultaneously cannot be stacked several times, the very notion is nonsensical, because that isn't where her superiority over these timelines is coming from. It is due to her control over the data in the photonic crystals that constitute these timelines, and a single scan which reads "cuts through eight dimensions/the eighth dimension" is inadequate to multiply that by five times.

Equally importantly is the existing uncertainty about what the word "dimension" there even means. We know that the wall is meant to prevent her from accessing the core of the Moon Cell, which has 7 layers existing below it. It seems more intuitive then that the "eight dimension" is the core of the Moon Cell, not a hitherto unmentioned, never to be seen again, eight spatial dimension that is brought up seemingly entirely out of context.

 

[Firestorm808]

I agree with Deagonx that these issues regarding proof of Qualitative Superiority must be addressed.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Yeah, the text is fairly explicit about this as well:

Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously.


Paul is mistaken there. Spiritrons are the "true essence" of a person's soul, which resides in a higher dimension. The digital timelines and the Moon Cell itself is not made up of spiritrons. Spiritrons are how humans project their consciousness into the cyberspace, but the Moon Cell itself and the timelines within it are not made of spirit particles, aside from SERAPH. The light-data is stored in photonic crystals, unrelated to spiritrons.

No, spiritrons are in fact what make up the Mooncell's worlds, its specifically called a Spiritron world in fact, as noted by Gilgamesh calling the Golden City "another" spiritron world, after leaving the Mooncell (a spiritron world)

This place? This is another spirit-particle fabricated world (Ryōshi Kyokō Sekai), separate from the SE.RA.PH. The spirit particle network of a different celestial body.

So no, its in fact all made of spiritrons, everything there is, this is also repeated in other places in CCC, Extra, and FGO, such as the rules of the Mooncell being referred to as the spiritron laws, CCC's (the stage) real name being the Spiritron Imaginary (because INS) Pit, Velber taking spiritrons from it, etc.

The nature of the "soul" can be addressed separately, but it should be clear that the timelines in the Moon Cell are just light-data in a giant photonic crystal, not soul energy.

Addressed above

No, rather, the information we are given about higher dimensions is given in a very specific context that isn't about proper higher-dimensional spaces, in which case, we are left with no actual evidence of higher-dimensional spaces. Even the soul as well as heroic spirits are said to regard in a higher-dimensional space, but this cannot be physical and has also been referred to as simply being "another dimension."

No, again, actually read the scene you're debating. Rin rants for 29 straight sentences before even mentioning BB. There's no specific context because Rin is simply explaining higher dimensions as a general concept, and then saying BB has that, that's the exact opposite of specific context. I've mentioned this a few times already. You also keep saying that heroic spirits and the soul are said to be higher dimensional, and that means it doesn't count but you've never even given a slight reason why, you're just asserting it as true.

A soul resides in all life forms that are intelligent. It is spiritual life that is not part of any physical phenomenon.
The soul is a “will” that lies in another dimension, and that will occupies a body.

So this line being used for this point is really weird, I've mentioned this already but this doesn't at all support your point. If the soul resides in a higher (another) dimension, of course it wouldn't be part of any normal physical phenomena, when most people can't interact with it or even know its true nature. However this line in Japanese reads

知性持つ生命ひとつひとつに宿る、肉体的ではなく精神的な命。

Which is a bit different than the tl there. Instead of mentioning phenomenon its instead just saying that rather than being physical life (the body), its the spiritual life, phenomenon is not present at all, which just means that even this really weird thing you're doing where you're trying to go "you see it mentions no physical phenomenon therefore not real dimensions" doesn't work, because its just not there (go ahead, you can slap this into DeepL, Jisho, ask others to read it, anything)

“Heroic Spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above this dimension. They are an existence that transcend time.

If we really dissected the grammar here, this also tells us that it isn't referring to spatial or temporal dimensions, because the 4-D physical world is being referred to as a singular "dimension" and the "higher dimension" of the heroic spirits is singular as well, an existence that transcends time. Very similar to BB. From that perspective, there's no reason for us to regard this higher dimension as an infinitely larger or qualitatively superior layer, it is just outside time, and it isn't physical.

That's the most pedantic thing I've ever seen kek. How would you like this sentence to be reworded then "Heroic spirits are a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, and the Throne of Heroic Spirits exists in a dimension above these dimensions"? like that sentence doesn't make any sense at all, but its the alternative to what's written, unless you wanted them to directly say its above space time constantly, in all the lines saying its higher dimensional across the entire franchise, which at that point, no, authors trust people have the ability to read things and understand meaning without them needing to be spammed like a battleboarder becoming an amateur writer. I think the CSM author put this best "I believe in my readers. I think that over-explaining more than necessary in order to make it easier to understand is, in fact, fooling the reader. Readers are reading our manga more accurately than we think."

Saying something exists in a dimension above this one is a very normal way to say that its higher dimensional. I'm not even sure how else to respond here, this is just a massive stretch. Hell, we know very directly its not just atemporal as in just purely above time and not actually higher d, because we know its also above each world as a whole (the throne can access servants from every world, including Lostbelts, this wouldn't be the case if it was only over time, because these are in different worlds as a whole, completely seperate time spaces, some of which don't even exist anymore)

To your point, that does not preclude superiority, but it means that the evidence that we are currently using to establish infinite superiority is being applied incorrectly, because existing in a realm that is outside the timeline of the normal universe does not necessitate qualitative superiority. The basis through which this concept is being conflated with superiority is due to the misconception about BB. She gained atemporality (relative to the data timelines) and superiority over that data simultaneously, but that is not because the two concepts are one and the same, rather, it is because she was put in a position that had both. She became the Moon Cell.

This would potentially make sense if everything you've said was true and not addressed already, but that's not the case, so its in fact, far more likely that the very explicit R>F statements are in fact, tiering applicable

The issue is with regard to the "cuts to the eight dimension" scan being used for multiple layers of infinity based on the higher dimensional perspective. I will quote the pertinent section again, because in this leg of the discussion, it's very critical:

Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously.

A concurrent world simulator where the past present and future exist at the same time. This is the "higher dimensional perspective." She became the Moon Cell. Even if we agreed the timelines represented bonafide universes, and thus considered BB a layer of infinity above them, we still would not be able to consider her five layers of infinity above these timelines, because her ability to see past and future simultaneously cannot be stacked several times, the very notion is nonsensical, because that isn't where her superiority over these timelines is coming from. It is due to her control over the data in the photonic crystals that constitute these timelines, and a single scan which reads "cuts through eight dimensions/the eighth dimension" is inadequate to multiply that by five times.

This argument is just really weird in general. You're simultaneously humoring the fact that the dimensions count as a higher degree of infinity, and then also saying "but they don't actually count because they don't come from a higher degree of infinity" in order to say why the 8d doesn't work, the argument itself doesn't actually make any sense, mostly because the reason these higher dimensions count is because it does come from a proper higher dimensional nature, as you yourself are accepting to make the argument to begin with.

To go further into it, you're now arguing that BB has a higher d perspective simply because she became the Mooncell, which sees the past present and future all at once (specifically called higher d if you remember)

The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence. The Moon Cell Core knows how the human race will end. But there is no valuation of any kind in that result. The Moon Cell has within it no basis to judge the options, how to create a better future — to judge between good and evil, you could say. This is the management of the Earth was left to humanity. Or, why a third party overlooked it and did not intervene. But, if an AI with a clear basis for judgment were inserted, the Moon Cell would select the best future according to a single intelligence. — which is to say, the erasure of mankind. If they are to be ultimately destroyed, it is because now they must be destroyed

You then argue the universes are just data again, which is wrong as has been addressed, said "data" is at least equally real as the outside world so I won't harp on this again.

After that you move on to say that if BB had a higher d perspective over universes that she can't be higher than that, which is absurd. The explanation about dimensions is establishing the superiority of a higher dimension over the ones below it (again it wasn't about BB, else Rin wouldn't go on for 29 sentences explaining higher dimensions in general terms before then mentioning that BB has that now), this doesn't suddenly stop at 4d because that's where we as humans perceive the axis of time to be, this applies upwards for as many dimensions as are present. If a 5d being can see a 4d world as the words on a page, a 6d being doesn't suddenly not see the 5d world as the same, and a 7d being would thusly see the 6d world as the same, so on and so forth for however many dimensions exist, this argument is just you fundamentally misunderstanding how higher dimensions work, there's not much to say here either, if a verse establishes higher dimensions and things of higher dimensional nature as having this sort of transcendence over lower ones, the dimensions in said verse are simply tiering applicable, that's why tier 1 verses can even reach higher than 5d to begin with.

Equally importantly is the existing uncertainty about what the word "dimension" there even means. We know that the wall is meant to prevent her from accessing the core of the Moon Cell, which has 7 layers existing below it. It seems more intuitive then that the "eight dimension" is the core of the Moon Cell, not a hitherto unmentioned, never to be seen again, eight spatial dimension that is brought up seemingly entirely out of context.

No, it doesn't, as I've explained like 5 times on this thread, the Mooncell has 7 layers existing, in total, you can bring up the "that's only what's found so far" argument, however as I've said, that's all they've found after Twice H. Pieceman has reached the core, and has also for the past like 100 years, given people info on the Mooncell so they reach the core to meet him. Further the sentence quite literally can not be translated as cutting up to the 8th dimension and then protecting it, its specifically cutting through, meaning this layer argument now means the wall is going through the supposed 8th dimension, and thus failing at protecting it. Even further than that, the concept of layers (floors) is explicitly stated to not exist in CCC, and this interpretation is being brought from a guidebook in Extra describing something completely unrelated to this scene, as opposed to spatial dimensions, which are explained almost right after this part (once she gets past the wall).

I agree with Deagonx that these issues regarding proof of Qualitative Superiority must be addressed.

Have you read the replies from anyone else which contest just about every point Deagon is making to even suggest the superiority is incorrect? Because the issues have been addressed, in those replies from myself, Ultima and Expectro

 

[Deagonx]

No, spiritrons are in fact what make up the Mooncell's worlds, its specifically called a Spiritron world in fact, as noted by Gilgamesh calling the Golden City "another" spiritron world, after leaving the Mooncell (a spiritron world)

You're mistaken. Only SERAPH is a Spiritron world. This is even noted within your quote.

SERIAL PHANTASM.
The virtual spiritron world that was created within the Moon Cell.
When the Moon Cell grew to a great size, it created this city-shaped engine in the form of an additional layer in order to manage itself.

However, even SERAPH is just made up of pseudo-spiritrons, not actual spiritrons.

BB	Yes, this is Seraphix.
BB	Think of it as a zone made entirely out of light, where everything has been digitized into Pseudo-Spiritrons.
BB	As long as intellectual activity is taking place here, an information life-form like myself and an organic life-form like you can interact in the same space-time.

Pseudo-spiritrons are just data, as well.

A person is transformed into a pseudo-spiritron form (their soul is quantified as data)

The Moon Cell version of the “Big Crunch.” It is made by collecting all of the pseudo-spiritrons (light cells) within the Moon.

If the soul resides in a higher (another) dimension, of course it wouldn't be part of any normal physical phenomena, when most people can't interact with it or even know its true nature. However this line in Japanese reads

If it were a higher spatial dimension, that would make it a physical phenomenon. It could be a non-physical realm that represents a higher-infinity, but we would need to establish that through evidence, not through the assumption of a spatial axis.

Saying something exists in a dimension above this one is a very normal way to say that its higher dimensional. I'm not even sure how else to respond here, this is just a massive stretch. Hell, we know very directly its not just atemporal as in just purely above time and not actually higher d, because we know its also above each world as a whole (the throne can access servants from every world, including Lostbelts, this wouldn't be the case if it was only over time, because these are in different worlds as a whole, completely seperate time spaces, some of which don't even exist anymore)

That's not a sound assumption, no. Regardless, the main point is that we lack evidence of qualitative superiority, being outside the stream of timelines of the main universe and being able to access them is not indicative of that by itself, and the evidence we have about it suggests it is not. Souls are not infinitely great beings, and neither are heroic spirits.

the very explicit R>F statements are in fact, tiering applicable

We have absolutely no statements implying R>F.

The explanation about dimensions is establishing the superiority of a higher dimension over the ones below it

Well, no, not superiority. Atemporality. BB's higher-dimensional perspective allows her to view a timeline start to finish, but that is not QS by our standards without additional evidence. Consequently, you cannot stack atemporality.

No, it doesn't, as I've explained like 5 times on this thread, the Mooncell has 7 layers existing, in total

Yes, and beyond the 7th layer is the Moon Cell's Core, which can be considered an 8th layer/dimension.

Because the issues have been addressed, in those replies from myself, Ultima and Expectro

They've been responded to, sure, but you speak as though because you've explained your opinion in a way that makes sense to you that other people are not allowed to maintain their disagreement or continue to agree with your opponent. I don't find your reasoning or your evidence persuasive at all. I think you're making a lot of far-fetched assumptions about insufficient evidence to confer degrees of superiority that pretty clearly don't exist within the setting we're discussing.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Would you mind taking a look at the most recent argument, starting with my post above? We are trying to iron out the alleged qualitative superiority of the Moon Cell.

Sure.

I stopped getting updates halfway through page 1 though so I'll have to read that first.

 

[Paul_Frank]

You're mistaken. Only SERAPH is a Spiritron world. This is even noted within your quote.

SERIAL PHANTASM.
The virtual spiritron world that was created within the Moon Cell.
When the Moon Cell grew to a great size, it created this city-shaped engine in the form of an additional layer in order to manage itself.

However, even SERAPH is just made up of pseudo-spiritrons, not actual spiritrons.

BB	Yes, this is Seraphix.
BB	Think of it as a zone made entirely out of light, where everything has been digitized into Pseudo-Spiritrons.
BB	As long as intellectual activity is taking place here, an information life-form like myself and an organic life-form like you can interact in the same space-time.

Pseudo-spiritrons are just data, as well.

A person is transformed into a pseudo-spiritron form (their soul is quantified as data)

The Moon Cell version of the “Big Crunch.” It is made by collecting all of the pseudo-spiritrons (light cells) within the Moon.

No its not just SE.RA.PH, because that quote I sent comes from the end of CCC kek. That is to say, it wouldn't make sense to only speak on SE.RA.PH. when Hakuno wasn't there. Also you're trying to differentiate psuedo spiritrons and normal ones here but you missed like, my entire post explaining why Spiritrons and the Mooncell worlds are proven and repeatedly shown to be equally real. Additionally, BB is saying that the people within have been made into psuedo spiritrons, not the world itself, but again this is irrelevant, as I also mentioned and showed psuedo spiritrons being physical, there's also the fact that the Mooncell is just explicitly actual spiritrons, it's a Ryōshi Kyokō Sekai which tls to that, lacking the term psuedo at all, which are Giji-ryōshi.

If it were a higher spatial dimension, that would make it a physical phenomenon. It could be a non-physical realm that represents a higher-infinity, but we would need to establish that through evidence, not through the assumption of a spatial axis.

No, because it's not interacting with our perceived physical world. Also again, it doesn't even tl to that so this point is moot

That's not a sound assumption, no.

It in fact is, a very sound and completely normal assumption

Regardless, the main point is that we lack evidence of qualitative superiority, being outside the stream of timelines of the main universe and being able to access them is not indicative of that by itself, and the evidence we have about it suggests it is not. Souls are not infinitely great beings, and neither are heroic spirits.

We dont lack it, you're just ignoring it. For the umpteenth time, the quote isn't specifically about BB, it's about dimensions in general, thus this idea that it's only talking about BB being outside the stream of time is inherently incorrect. And even if was, the way its described still counts.

And Souls and Heroic Spirits are both infinitely greater, fun fact. In fact, the soul possesses infinite power, very explicitly. Heroic Spirits are so far beyond everything below them in the verse that even True Magicians, including Zelretch and Aoko, can't even control or summon a single Heroic Spirit.

We have absolutely no statements implying R>F.

Seeing the world below you as words in the story of a page of a book is r>f, it's about as direct as it comes

Well, no, not superiority. Atemporality. BB's higher-dimensional perspective allows her to view a timeline start to finish, but that is not QS by our standards without additional evidence. Consequently, you cannot stack atemporality.

Again, no it's not, you're just conveniently ignoring that BB isn't the subject of the conversation until the last 2 lines. It's not about atemporality and BB's perspective, it's about how dimensions work in general, the explanation counts for the tiering system, and then Rin applies that to BB, not the other way around.

Yes, and beyond the 7th layer is the Moon Cell's Core, which can be considered an 8th layer/dimension.

No, beyond the 7th layer isn't the core, the core is the 7th layer, as I've said multiple times on the thread, even showing the Japanese line it's from. I've also again, shown the fact that the line can't be referring to layers for numerous reasons even apart from translations (again, CCC directly being stated to lack the concept of layers)

They've been responded to, sure, but you speak as though because you've explained your opinion in a way that makes sense to you that other people are not allowed to maintain their disagreement or continue to agree with your opponent. I don't find your reasoning or your evidence persuasive at all. I think you're making a lot of far-fetched assumptions about insufficient evidence to confer degrees of superiority that pretty clearly don't exist within the setting we're discussing.

No, I act like someone saying things haven't been responded to implies they haven't read them, especially when instead, it's your posts not responding to stuff and simply reposting the same ideas

 

[Deagonx]

Sure.

I stopped getting updates halfway through page 1 though so I'll have to read that first.

Okay, thank you. I'll stop the back and forth now to avoid adding to the books being written.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Ultima brought up some good points, switching to neutral then.

 

[Firestorm808]

Ultima brought up some good points, switching to neutral then.

Whether or not the Temporal Transcendence is validated, do you agree that it cannot be used to stack multiple higher layers of infinity?

Even if we agreed the timelines represented bonafide universes, and thus considered BB a layer of infinity above them, we still would not be able to consider her five layers of infinity above these timelines, because her ability to see past and future simultaneously cannot be stacked several times, the very notion is nonsensical, because that isn't where her superiority over these timelines is coming from. It is due to her control over the data in the photonic crystals that constitute these timelines, and a single scan which reads "cuts through eight dimensions/the eighth dimension" is inadequate to multiply that by five times.

 

[Firestorm808]

Sure.

I stopped getting updates halfway through page 1 though so I'll have to read that first.

Do you have any questions, comments, or concerns from what you've read?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you have any questions, comments, or concerns from what you've read?

So reading through it ultimately what I though before was my main worry. Basically that the higher dimensional spaces seem like they're higher dimensional, but you need to prove that the spaces are universal or larger in size.

Overall going by Paul's comments they've provided enough evidence to meet that in my mind. The layer that's an infinite sea or the 404 layer that's just an infinite empty space that are higher dimensional would both support larger geometric dimensions. Considering we already accept Avalon as 6D I don't see why the Moon Cell, which from what I got can simulate and change Avalon wouldn't also count as legitimately higher dimensional.

Though the R>F stuff doesn't look to be true. Seeing a 3-D object as a 2-D object isn't R>F, it's just a common example to explain a higher dimensional perspective.

So overall I'll go with Paul and Crimson here. Even if the timeline stuff is just raw data, that was never really the justification of 8-D and it wouldn't even need to be a justification. Something having finite energy also isn't a requirement for Tier 1, since it's just having universal spaces with higher dimensional axis.

 

[Firestorm808]

So reading through it ultimately what I though before was my main worry. Basically that the higher dimensional spaces seem like they're higher dimensional, but you need to prove that the spaces are universal or larger in size.

Overall going by Paul's comments they've provided enough evidence to meet that in my mind. The layer that's an infinite sea or the 404 layer that's just an infinite empty space that are higher dimensional would both support larger geometric dimensions. Considering we already accept Avalon as 6D I don't see why the Moon Cell, which from what I got can simulate and change Avalon wouldn't also count as legitimately higher dimensional.

Though the R>F stuff doesn't look to be true. Seeing a 3-D object as a 2-D object isn't R>F, it's just a common example to explain a higher dimensional perspective.

So overall I'll go with Paul and Crimson here. Even if the timeline stuff is just raw data, that was never really the justification of 8-D and it wouldn't even need to be a justification. Something having finite energy also isn't a requirement for Tier 1, since it's just having universal spaces with higher dimensional axis.

Thank you for your response.

Part of the purpose of this thread is to cross-examine the current reasoning for Qualitative Superiority in the series that being both Avalon and the Moon Cell.

With Avalon, it's reasoning only comes from one guide. Such QS characteristics have not been demonstrated in the narrative from what I recall. We will be going further into this in time.

With the MoonCell, we can now narrow our cross-examination on what you identified as possibly usable for QS: the infinite sea and 404 Layer. We will get back to you in this regard.

I agree with you on the lack of R>F. In regards to the exerpt about a scroll/book, this is just an analogy used by Rin to describe the Moon Cell's higher perspective over the simulated timeline. It doesn't literally see the timeline as a book. Since the MoonCell is the computer that simulates the data, it's reasonable that the MoonCell can read all the past and future simulated data. The MoonCell having a higher "perspective" over the simulated timelines and the MoonCell actually being Qualitatively Superior are two different questions. Our focus is on the latter.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Qawsedf234

Can you clarify on the "infinite sea" you are referring to? I can't seem to find that exerpt in the thread.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Correct something here too, it's not the barrier that is 8D. What the barrier does is cutting through 8 dimensions to protect the core from external threat. ( And it's not layer since it doesn't even exist 8 layers but 7 in moon cell and the kanji used for layers and the kanji used for dimmension is not the same but paul already showed this).

Now for the size of Moon cell. Moon cell is composed of two part the near side and far side.

In one of tha arena we have a space that is an infinite labyrinth.

.

And in Far side we have Imaginary number space, who is an infinite space that can contain Tiamat who true self volume is infinite.


Female
The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite.

黒い泥もティアマトの身長となる。ただし泥は虚数なので重さは計量できない。
反面、体積は無限となる。

 

[Firestorm808]

Thank you.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Qawsedf234

Here's what our side has found regarding the "Infinite Sea." There is a translation error.

The English Scan says "Infinite Chimeric Lunar Sea."

However, the Japanese Scan says "零の月想海" which translates to "Zero no Tsuki Soukai" or "Zeroth Chimeric Lunar Sea." This can also be seen on the Japanese Fate Extra Wiki.

As described here, "The following is a list of phrases that appear every time you enter the arena and the theme of the arena. Arena's theme is quoted from the official fanbook. For reference, the original version is marked as '(number) no 月想海', and the English version is marked as '(number) Chimeric Lunar Sea'. For example, the first lunar sea is 一の月想海; First Chimeric Lunar Sea. However, the 0th lunar sea is originally written as 零の月想海, but in English it is written as Infinite Chimeric Lunar Sea."

00th moonrise

In summary, the scan does not state that it is infinite.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Though the R>F stuff doesn't look to be true. Seeing a 3-D object as a 2-D object isn't R>F, it's just a common example to explain a higher dimensional perspective.

Actually, in this case is further explained that higher dimensional beings not only see timelines as pages of a book but also that the pages they see are the timelines that exist and if they stop to observe them then they stop existing, which demostrate that they not only see them as fiction but also manipulate them as such:

Originally Moon Cell was just an observation device made by an otherworldly civilization.
Moon Cell only contained equipment to observe and record life on Earth, but after many, many years it came to have its current functionality.
Its mission was to observe, but when trying to observe there can be no “blind spots.”
(Heisenberg’s Uncertainty Principle. The observer determines an event by observing it. What isn’t observed is not certain.)
An observation device must be fair. If it is to observe, there must be nothing unseen. Thus, it required capabilities for knowing everything about the Earth.
To record all things without bias, it needed performance greater than that of an observation device.
And so, it had made a giant leap in evolution.
It had enhanced its functions to the point where it went from making observations to surveilling, even gaining control over the administration of the planet.

The greater its enhancements, the more complex its administration policy. It created many terminals and even made artificial intelligences to manage functions for each section. (These were later utilized for the NPCs and advanced AIs of the Holy Grail War.)
However, on the other hand, Moon Cell was stubbornly opposed to loading artificial intelligence into itself.
A true observer should not have a mind.
If an observer has an intellect and knowledge, the meaning of things observed will be decided by the observer.
For that reason, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.
Thus, this computer has no conception of good and evil, no desire for the future, not even an outcome.
Moon Cell is just a container that exists on the Moon.
A typewriter that God left behind.
An observation lens drilled into the Moon.

In the future, when looking back on this crystal device that just shows people dreams, Moon Cell will be called thus.
The Moon’s Eye.
A bottomless Klein Cube.
The observer of everything on our planet, and a Type-Moon whose master is no longer around.

Extra Chapter
“Observer. Or, Character Creation”


The space was a completed world.
Jet black with points of light.
In the center of a room in the wide, perfect sphere dyed in the color of the night sky, there floated a wooden chair.
Based on its appearance alone, it would be enough to call the chair extravagant, but its wood gave it a refined hue, and one would not think it a repulsive gaud of the elite. Rather, just by existing here, it imbued the space around it with a conspicuous gravity.
If an unrefined person sat in the chair, that person would likely be consumed by the weight of the chair’s existence and hidden from surrounding view. Such was the significance of the chair.
The space had been prepared for the sole purpose of exhibiting the chair.
A man exuding a solemnity that outweighed that of the chair leaned back in it, emitting a loud creak.
“Hm…”
If one were to draw a reduced map of the universe based on this room, the man sitting in the chair would be at its center, emitting an air surely befitting its master.
His external appearance would probably place his age in the 50s or 60s.
One could sense the trials of his life in the wrinkles etched deeply on his face, but his eyes remained brimming with brilliance, such as one might see in someone ten years his junior.
“This axis is wrong… these lines(light polarization lines) will be annihilated too…”
When the man slipped his finger into the sky, the heavenly bodies displayed on the surrounding walls began to revolve.
“Oh, this cut-off isn’t so… no, it’s the worst. That damned giant spider will wake up. It’s a century too early to face that.”
Then, as if to match his words, the pages in the book hovering in front of the man turned with a flutter, inscribing multifarious information in real-time.
The thickness of the book was about that of a standard encyclopedia.
Regardless, as the man guided his finger through the air, thousands— tens of thousands of pages were born and erased.
After continuing this activity again and again, the old man muttered as if in boredom.
“As I thought, no matter how this is resolved, it doesn’t result in a satisfactory outcome for the Association. Having said that, there isn’t enough reason in my interventions. Yes, it’s a complete stalemate.”
The man who seemed to be talking to himself suddenly asked the space behind him for an opinion.
“What do you think? It’s about time you said hello. That communication device there is working fine.”
At that, the space replied,
“How rude of me. It seems you’ve noticed.”
There was a small wooden table of similar design to the chair. Atop it sat a telephone.
It had the shape of a very old telephone, the kind that looked like a table lamp at first glance. But instead of a light bulb, there was a conical speaker. Mounted on a thin post was a microphone. A dial was affixed to the base of the device.
It was a telephone you would only find in movies, museums, or antique shops, save for one difference. Unlike the black color of most antique telephones, this one was a beautiful blue color that evoked sapphire. At a glance, one could only think that it had been crafted from an enormous precious gem.
As for the question of how long the telephone had been there, there shouldn’t have been anything in that space until several minutes prior. But, the telephone was wonderfully integrated with the harmony of the room, as if it had always existed there.
Indeed, addressing the phone had confirmed the fact of its existence, as if the history of the room had been rewritten.
“With a little more time, I had planned to make the phone's bell ring.”
A youthful-sounding voice resounded from the telephone's speaker.
It seemed as if the phone was speaking according to its own will.
“Do I strike you as an old man who talks to himself?”
“Did you ask me that because you knew it was me?”
“Where do you think we are? I can count the number of people who can get inside.”
Rolling his shoulders, the old man glanced at the blue telephone.
“So, what business do you have here? If you want to have tea, come back later. Unfortunately, I’m wrapped up in some troublesome work.”
“Yeah, I’m actually here because of that.”
“What?”
“If you’re going to choose someone to observe the incident at Snowfield, don’t pick from the magi. You should select a world on the basis of being an intruder.
With that, the telephone’s dial slowly began to turn, returning to its starting point at certain intervals before turning again.
At the same time, the heavenly bodies revolving around the room — and the book that the old man was reading — began turning faster than they had been before.

Inscribed on the pages was the face of a human, and that person’s information(parameters).
At times, it was male. At times, it was female.
At times, it was elderly. At times, it was a child.
At times, it was musclebound. At times, it was obese.
At times, it was a saint. At times, it was a vicious murderer.
At times, it was a magus. At times, it was a priest.
Flipping between countless qualities such as race, gender, age, body type, clothing, personality, and occupation, the book’s pages turned with incredible momentum.
“You’re quite confident in the turning of the planets.”
“The trajectory to the future is like a labyrinth. It’s my specialty.”
Someone passing by the two at this moment would likely have found it a bizarre conversation.
“Of course, unlike my labyrinth, the destination one makes depends upon the person.”
The pages kept turning at a high speed, and the displayed faces smoothly blended into each other.
As if he was watching a scene from times past, the old man sat back and watched as the telephone continued to turn its own dial.
Then, after some time, the turning of the pages slowed.
Inscribed on one page was an Eastern person.
“Next is to… yes, she needs some glasses.”
The pages turned delicately. A thin-framed pair of glasses appeared on the person’s face.
“...Is that important?”
“Who knows? I’m just back-calculating from the result I arrived at. Whether or not it has any meaning at all is something we can consider later.”
“Hmph.”
As he looked at the information on the final page, the old man spoke to the telephone behind him.
“Still, you’ve suddenly involved yourself with the world. If you’re that bored, just visit the town yourself. Shouldn’t there be a cafe that caters to readers? You can kill plenty of time there.”
“No… this isn’t exactly killing time. I’m rather involved with the incident this time.”
“...I see. It’s something that one has thought of.”
The old man immediately understood the meaning behind the telephone’s words, and recalled someone’s face. He took a deep sigh— and then his lips twisted into a smile.
“So you have a bit of a plan… all the more reason you can’t intervene. It’s the sort of monster(fool) that rejoices as more intruders are involved. Let the Holy Grail War this time be followed through by an outsider.”
“Yeah, you’re right. If you handled this poorly, it would confirm the world.”
It was certainly a bizarre conversation that could only happen between these two. Then, the person behind the telephone — or possibly, the telephone itself — looked at the person now described in the open book, and spoke in a cheerful voice.
“Her universe is a pseudepigraphon, or perhaps it’s the opposite. Let’s hope for the best and watch over her.”


The book was opened to a picture of a young girl.
It was an apparently Eastern girl in her late teens to early twenties, with dyed blonde hair.
Below her portrait was a name beginning with the letter A.

And then, with her as the center(Player)—
Here and now, the curtain would rise on a Holy Grail War smeared in falsehood and vanity.

And Avalon is above Zelretch Second Magic:

Avalon
Rank: EX
Type: Bound Field
Maximum Targets: 1 Person
The sheath of Excalibur, a Noble Phantasm with its origin in the Fairyland Avalon where King Arthur rests. The wielder will heal from any wound, and the aging process will cease. Unleashing the true name of Avalon will deploy a Bound Field that provides the greatest defence. A Noble Phantasm that annuls the interference of True Magic; its existence is equivalent to True Magic.
In legend, losing this sheath casted an ominous shadow onto the life of King Arthur, eventually cascading to the collapse of the kingdom. In modern times, the Einzberns excavated Avalon at Cornwall and passed it into the hands of Emiya Kiritsugu. Afterward, it was planted into the body of Emiya Shirou to save his life, eventually becoming the link that led to his bond with Artoria. In Fate Route, Artoria learned that Shirou was her “sheath”, which led the duo to emerge victorious in the Holy Grail War. Fate/complete material III: World Material - The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Saber

The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]
Avalon.
The paradise in the Arthurian legends; a scabbard bearing the name of the Faerie Land.
The utopia Avalon was thought to be derived from the island that produced the "Apple of Immortality" in Greek mythology.
Avalon mended all wounds and halted the wielder's aging process. After unleashing its true name, Avalon would break into hundreds of shards and shield the wielder from all interference.
The sheath of the holy sword was excavated by the Einzberns from Cornwall. It was given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst to summon King Arthur.
It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her. Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]

•Avalon: The Everdistant Utopia
The matching “scabbard” of the holy sword Excalibur. The wielder does not age, and injuries will also quickly heal.
After invoking its true name, Avalon dissipates as tiny particles into the air, and shields the wielder from all interference. No damage can be done to the wielder when a state of absolute defence is initiated. Even interference from the parallel world based on the Second Magic will be blocked. An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself. No one can harm the tranquil King that stands in the land of Avalon.
When Avalon was unleashed, not even the King of Heroes could harm Saber. Fate/complete material III: World material - Theory of Magic - Magecraft: Effects on the Level of True Magic

 

[Deagonx]

So reading through it ultimately what I though before was my main worry. Basically that the higher dimensional spaces seem like they're higher dimensional, but you need to prove that the spaces are universal or larger in size.

Overall going by Paul's comments they've provided enough evidence to meet that in my mind. The layer that's an infinite sea or the 404 layer that's just an infinite empty space that are higher dimensional would both support larger geometric dimensions. Considering we already accept Avalon as 6D I don't see why the Moon Cell, which from what I got can simulate and change Avalon wouldn't also count as legitimately higher dimensional.

Though the R>F stuff doesn't look to be true. Seeing a 3-D object as a 2-D object isn't R>F, it's just a common example to explain a higher dimensional perspective.

So overall I'll go with Paul and Crimson here. Even if the timeline stuff is just raw data, that was never really the justification of 8-D and it wouldn't even need to be a justification. Something having finite energy also isn't a requirement for Tier 1, since it's just having universal spaces with higher dimensional axis.

Overall, I do not disagree that there is evidence in the verse of spaces that could be interpreted as a higher infinity, but it's important to scrutinize the reasoning we currently use to tier these characters.

Avalon: A single guidebook scan from the Fate/side material: Fate Encyclopedia, which reads: It is a Noble Phantasm at the level of magic, that completely shuts out all physical interference, transliners from parallel worlds, and communication from other dimensions (up to the sixth).

Moon Cell: A single statement from BB about a wall which "cuts to the eighth dimension."

This is the only reference to a "sixth dimension" with regard to Avalon, or even in the franchise as a whole that I've seen. As well as the only reference to an eighth dimension for the Moon Cell. It is currently tiered as several infinities above a normal universe due to this monologue from Rin:

Rin :: The observed universe…? Ah, I mentioned that in my explanation, I guess. “There’s no passage of time here. If it were a loop we might still have hope…” was that it? A time loop is when time goes in a circle. It means you return to the past, so theoretically you could alter not only known situations, but also unknown ones. But we don’t have dreams like that here. Because no matter what happens the “result” can’t be changed. The far side of the moon is a world made of imaginary numbers. There’s a concept of time here, but the way it works is different from the real thing.

You would call it the difference between “recognized time” and “recorded time,” I guess. See, right now we’re standing here talking, and that’s the present, right? But, …one, two, three, and. Right. So now the previous me…what I said three seconds ago has become the “past.” Even though we’re still in the middle of the “same conversation.” That’s the flow of time according to your cognizance. Humans divide time and space into past, present, and future according to their own cognizance. That’s the very simple physical law of observed space. As we can’t see what will come after the present, there fluctuations in related parties can change the future. It’s too late now, but the real world and the near side of the moon are both operated as this observed universe. You understand so far?


Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that.

This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don’t know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey “this present moment” even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn’t make it in time.

Through the combination of those pieces of information, the "wall that cuts through the eighth dimension" is tiered as 4 infinities higher than an infinite 4-D universe, which is extremely suspect to me. The line that immediately precedes Rin's explanation is "What is the observed universe?" Hence why her monologue begins with "The observed universe?"

She explaining a dichotomy between the concept of an "observed universe" where time passes, and a "recorded universe" where past and future exist simultaneously. She explains what the "Higher Dimensional Perspective" refers to very concretely:

"You’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective"

BB's higher dimensional perspective refers specifically to the difference in perception of time between an Observed Universe and a Recorded Universe, not a higher spatial dimension. Her dominion over these timelines isn't due to the higher dimensional perspective, it is because she became the computer simulating them.

This is a crucial point: Even if we agree that certain fixtures in the cosmology can be tiered as a higher infinity, or as an additional spatial dimension, or even if we agreed that BB's position in the Moon Cell granted her QS over the data timelines (the significance of which still to be determined given their unreality), we would not -- in my opinion -- be able to use that information to assume, absent of any additional context, that the lone guidebook statement about Avalon "blocking communications up to the sixth dimension" and BB's lone statement about the wall "cutting through the eighth dimension" (which quite probably refers to the Moon Cell's core, given that there are seven layers underneath the Core) should be best interpreted as universe sized spatial dimensions that grant several higher infinities, because the monologue from Rin concretely does not refer to either of these things, isn't referring to a spatial dimension, and isn't referring to qualitative superiority, it's an explanation about the difference between an Observed Universe and a Recorded Universe, where time is perceived differently.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

BB's higher dimensional perspective refers specifically to the difference in perception of time between an Observed Universe and a Recorded Universe, not a higher spatial dimension. Her dominion over these timelines isn't due to the higher dimensional perspective, it is because she became the computer simulating them.

For curiosity, if your stance is that Moon Cell only grant the ability to manipulate the simulated timelines inside of it, what is your explanation to the feat I brought above someone inside the Moon Cell manipulating the timelines of the outside as they liked?

Now, while posting this I saw how it was mentioned that the Moon Cell is just digital and can't affect the outside world/"reality", which is false as Paul and Regi have showed and explained, however I would like to further add another instance that show how the Moon Cell can affect the outside, and that would be by bringing the very recent jp event (it began last week and is still active) of the Arcade Collab Event were is explained that actually all the event was something done by the protagonist (Hakuno) of Extra/CCC in the Moon Cell, which mean that Hakuno not only affected the FGO world (the mobile timeline) but also connected it with other timelines, specifically speaking the Arcade timeline in which Sodom's Beast/Draco fought against many different other Chaldeas from other timelines (except the mobile timeline), everything just to give a happy ending to her, in the process also affecting other different Beast/higher dimensional beings like Tiamat (you know, the one having infinite volume due to have 4D space inside her) and Merlin/Lady Avalon (the character that reside and is deeply connected to Avalon, a 6D space).

Or BB trapping the FGO protagonist in a time lock before the Lostbelts so he never need to experience the suffering of destroy several timelines to restore his own timeline. As well as her ability to see and interfere with the events inside a higher dimensional space like the Reverse Side of The World in the Imaginary Scramble event. (This two feats weren't brought before despite thinking in adding them to my previous answer to which I apologize).

 

[Deagonx]

We can work out the Moon Cell real/unreal timeline matters later. The justification for the 8D and 6D tiering is more the focus right now, and trying to tackle too many complicated subjects simultaneously can ruin a discussion, IMO, so we will table that for now. But I will clarify, I am not claiming that BB/the Moon Cell doesn't have any ability to influence the outside world. It very explicitly can, but arguably not in a way that justifies QS.

 

[Deagonx]

@Qawsedf234 Regarding the discussion we're having above about the dimensions and their alleged qualitative superiority, I sought input from DT who had this to say:

Well, I think it's not literally higher-dimensional. However, her perspective on the timelines in the Moon Cell at least seems to be R>F-like. Given, from the text I don't strictly get whether she just has such perception or if she also has the absolute power over the timeline to match. If she can freely rewrite the timelines due to being the computer they are stored in, I would have to problem with R>F transcendence over them (although I'm not sure if that would have meaning for the rest of the verse, giving the "digital" nature).

When it comes to the 8 dimensions thing it should be confirmed whether they are large, I suppose. I think it's likely better like that, than to take the former explanation regarding perspective to mean that all dimensions are generally qualitatively superior.

In his third sentence I believe he meant to write "I would have no problem with R>F transcendence"

 

[Firestorm808]

@Qawsedf234

In regards to the 404 Space, there is contradicting information between the guide statement and the source material.

The Guide Scan alleges that "The boundary between the seventh level of Moon Cell and the center of Moon Cell" "is an infinite distance that cannot be broken through no matter how many hundreds of years it takes."

However, this is both not supported and contradicted by the in-game material.

In the game, these scans outright tell us that we have a "finite MoonCell" and that anything inside it must be "finite."

In addition, these scans are the only mention of the 404 light-years in the game. Nothing in the game suggests that the 404 light-years context is infinite.

In summary, just like the Dragon Ball Manga and Infinite Universe Size Guide statements, they can't be used if the source material doesn't support guide statements.

 

[Deagonx]

In the game, these scans outright tell us that we have a "finite MoonCell" and that anything inside it must be "finite."

This is the translation:
Yes, it's slightly different.
As long as it is built in a finite moon cell,
It must be a finite labyrinth.

In addition, these scans are the only mention of the 404 area in the game. Nothing in the game suggests that the 404 area is infinite.

It's actually explicitly not infinite. It's 404 light-years long. It's described as infinite in the sense that it can't be traversed due to the number being 404

This is the borderline that lies between the seventh layer and Moon Cell‘s core. Pseudo-Spiritrons are made of light, and it’s warned that at the speed of light it would take 404 years to get past this border and to the computer addresses which lie beyond. This essentially communicates “that address doesn’t exist” to anyone/anything attempting to pass.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@Qawsedf234

In regards to the 404 Space, there is contradicting information between the guide statement and the source material.

The Guide Scan alleges that "The boundary between the seventh level of Moon Cell and the center of Moon Cell" "is an infinite distance that cannot be broken through no matter how many hundreds of years it takes."

However, this is both not supported and contradicted by the in-game material.

In the game, these scans outright tell us that we have a "finite MoonCell" and that anything inside it must be "finite."

This scene takes a bit of explaining. In this scene, Rani is telling Rin and the others that rather than being sparse for limitless transfer (so Jinako can continue running from us around the stage) its sparse because it must follow certain conditions, those being that it must have a fixed exit and entrance, and a single shape, or else the rules of the labyrinth would be broken. Now I'm sure the part you're trying to focus on is where they say the Mooncell is finite, however there's a few issues with the conclusion you're reaching.

Firstly, what she's saying is that the labyrinth specifically has to be finite, the 404 light years is not part of the labyrinth, its past that. Secondly, her idea is that the Mooncell is "finite" in the sense that it has an outside, which is the Moon. The inside doesn't actually have a set size limit the actual Mooncell isn't really finite, this is explained even as far back as the first mat for it, where it is called a "bottomless klein cube", at first glance that may seem like meaningless words, but that is an actual concept. Firstly I think we all know what bottomless is, a klein cube however, you're probably less familiar with. To explain it roughly, take a klein bottle, a true klein bottle is a shape without boundaries that can not exist within 3 dimensions and must be within a bare minimum r^4 space. This can of course be extended upwards to ones that are in r^5 spaces etc. For a slightly more detailed explanation of a klein cube, it is a hypersurface of degree n-1 in n space.

The real life details of this explanation aren't as important as the general idea proposed in the statement and how its used in Type Moon, the Mooncell despite being "finite" from an outside view, is endless on the inside

An eye of the moon.

A bottomless (底無し: bottomless, endlessly deep, infinite) Klein cube.

An ownerless Type Moon which has read all of this planet.

This is corroborated by the CCC event as well.

Kingprotea, a being which has an infinite growth of her infinite growth, is able to be contained just fine in a klein cube of seemingly finite size, and only can break free once Ritsuka arrives despite being much larger than the cube's exterior would suggest is possible

And the one compressed over there is the Alterego of Craving, Kingprotea.

A sapient lifeform that grows infinitely, increases infinitely in scale and can only be present in the digital world…

They explain even further in her own mats that this is the case

However, the owner of this skill, Kingprotea, can grow without end. When her level exceeds the limit, she expands the boundary herself and sets an even higher max limit. This can be repeated infinitely.

In other words, a Klein cube which was built to contain Kingprotea at her original pre sealing size, was able to continue containing her despite her growing so much that there was no telling how much more she'd grown yet. They even say that the Mooncell has no physical limits

In a world without physical limits, Protea would be unable to escape her own Ego… her craving.

On top of Kingprotea being sealed within a klein cube, and them saying that the Mooncell lacks physical limits, accounting for why its infinite on the inside, Passionlip is also a being with an infinite space in her, who the Mooncell can contain

In Passionlip’s case, that icon is set for some reason at the center of her chest.
To put it briefly, it’s a pocket of imaginary numbers where you can accumulate all the trash you want.
If it’s dust data crushed by Passionlip, they can be infinitely stored no matter the capacity. It seems that even those exceeding Lip’s own memory can be dumped into this valley

Its even noted that Breast Valley alone contains infinite things

There’s no way I can find our memories, the shape of which I don’t even know, among these infinite cubes.

Similarly in FGO, they state that Kiara (who was in the Mooncell btw), is superior to a 4d cube even with it being incapable of representing her visually, and contains an entire universe in her belly. This is also further support of the higher dimensions being true

Not even a 4D cube'd be enough to give us a good visual representation of that. Who had the big idea of letting her build a universe inside her belly?

Rani's explanation is simply saying that the reason the 11th floor appears as a sparse floor where its just endless space around a singular floor, is that the floor itself can not be extended infinitely because of what she says after

No matter how irregular it appears, the Labyrinth must abide by those conditions or it will break down.

For reference, when they and I say the floor must be finite, they don't mean the entire 11th floor, rather they mean the actual ground under their feet, because they go out of their way to note that there are no walls or boundaries to this floor itself its simply the actual ground that has limits, and it is vast empty space extending way past the square they're stuck on, the finite part is the labyrinth itself, where they're standing.

All in all, combined with the numerous statements in mats and in game and FGO of infinite size, or endless, without limits, etc, its obvious that Rani's statement isn't saying that nothing infinite can exist within the Mooncell, or that the Mooncell itself is truly a finite space, and instead that the labyrinth can't be infinite or it breaks the rules set for it, and if you wanted to take it as "nope nothing infinite no matter what" for whatever reason, despite that just not being what's being said, then simply put, she's just incorrect, as more things go against her than for her. This statement simply does not work the way you're trying to use it in either case, its either that Rani is wrong, or Rani isn't saying that infinite things can't exist within the Mooncell.

In addition, these scans are the only mention of the 404 area in the game. Nothing in the game suggests that the 404 area is infinite.

In summary, just like the Dragon Ball Manga and Infinite Universe Size Guide statements, they can't be used if the source material doesn't support guide statements.

This is a horrible argument. "We can't use the databooks because the in game doesn't say the same thing". In this case that's simply because the in game version doesn't explain it at all, because BB had no reason to explain it, she's alone there and thinking to herself, thus the databook is used to explain things to us. This is something Nasu does a lot, such as with Servant Materials, where he'll show like 4 skills and NPs they never used in game, and they have them but they're just never shown in FGO due to things like lack of time and resources, or lack of reasons to have them, the databooks for Type Moon stuff a lot of the time are simply better fleshed out than the actual game on different subjects, which is why everyone always waits for them to come out.

We don't just ignore data books because they aren't repeating word for word the exact same stuff said in game, in fact in that case its a useless databook, the entire purpose of material books is to explain things that weren't fully fleshed out in game or in the series for whatever reason, they're to give the information that would have been useless for the audience to know upon a first read or watch, and that they just may want to know afterwards.

Also fun but irrelevant note, we do use the infinite universe size from DB I'm 99% sure. But in either case, it doesn't matter because this is not DB.

This is the translation:
Yes, it's slightly different.
As long as it is built in a finite moon cell,
It must be a finite labyrinth.


It's actually explicitly not infinite. It's 404 light-years long. It's described as infinite in the sense that it can't be traversed due to the number being 404

No, that's the exact opposite of what it says actually, did you actually read it? The line says

it’s warned that at the speed of light it would take 404 years to get past this border and to the computer addresses which lie beyond. This essentially communicates “that address doesn’t exist” to anyone/anything attempting to pass.

This is what's saying its 404 light years long, which you yourself quoted here:

This is the borderline that lies between the seventh layer and Moon Cell‘s core. Pseudo-Spiritrons are made of light, and it’s warned that at the speed of light it would take 404 years to get past this border and to the computer addresses which lie beyond. This essentially communicates “that address doesn’t exist” to anyone/anything attempting to pass.

however it follows that immediately by saying that instead

It’s actually an infinite distance that cannot be covered even if you try for centuries

Now lets do a little english here. 404 years is a little over 4 centuries. A distance that can not be covered even if you try for centuries (this is at light speed that they're talking about) then means, its not actually 404 years to travel it.

404 years at light speed is 404 light years, this means that if it in fact, can not be covered within 404 years at light speed, its not 404 light years long, how long is it then? Well lucky for us, the first part of the sentence tells us the answer to that question, its infinite instead, they even say that BB had to become an infinite concept to travel it

…Is how it’s supposed to be, but BB used an imaginary number space to force herself to become an infinite concept, and by using a fake arena she managed to break past the borderline

So no, the mat is in fact saying it is literally infinite size, I'm not sure how you could possibly read this and come to the conclusion you did.

Now beyond all the things I've already shown showing that Rani's statement doesn't mean infinite things can't exist within the Mooncell, and that they in fact do, there is more that could be sent, but instead I'd rather just note that it doesn't like, actually matter if the Mooncell is infinite or not. You see, if its proven to be superior, then an 8d space is still superior to a lower dimensional one, whether you try to argue that space is finite or not does actually matter in that case because the superiority is already established. If tiering applicable superiority exists, then the dimensions can be infinite or finite or whatever and it doesn't actually change a thing

 

[Firestorm808]

Do you have the Japanese Game scans to corroborate these claims?

 

[Deagonx]

Firstly, what she's saying is that the labyrinth specifically has to be finite

Well, she is, but her reasoning is explicitly based on the finite Moon Cell. If the Moon Cell is finite, a labyrinth within it must also be finite.

Yes, it's slightly different.
As long as it is built in a finite moon cell,
It must be a finite labyrinth.

It's very direct. Her reasoning is based on a finite moon cell.

Secondly, her idea is that the Mooncell is "finite" in the sense that it has an outside, which is the Moon.

Where is that in the text? This appears to be an interpretation generated wholly for convenience.

this is explained even as far back as the first mat for it, where it is called a "bottomless klein cube", at first glance that may seem like meaningless words, but that is an actual concept. Firstly I think we all know what bottomless is, a klein cube however, you're probably less familiar with. To explain it roughly, take a klein bottle, a true klein bottle is a shape without boundaries that can not exist within 3 dimensions and must be within a bare minimum r^4 space. This can of course be extended upwards to ones that are in r^5 spaces etc. For a slightly more detailed explanation of a klein cube, it is a hypersurface of degree n-1 in n space.

There's no such thing as a "klein cube" in mathematics.

This is a horrible argument. "We can't use the databooks because the in game doesn't say the same thing".

It's not a bad argument, no. Generally we require some level of substantiation in the proper source material rather than tier something extremely higher than we have any feats for due solely to a guidebook statement.

You see, if its proven to be superior, then an 8d space is still superior to a lower dimensional one, whether you try to argue that space is finite or not does actually matter in that case because the superiority is already established. If tiering applicable superiority exists, then the dimensions can be infinite or finite or whatever and it doesn't actually change a thing

First, the size of the dimensions does matter, indeed. Though we know definitively that they are not physical dimensions, as that would very blatantly contradict the nature of the Moon Cell. Second, superiority in any regard would not by itself justify treating each dimension as a higher infinity unto itself, given that "higher spatial dimensions" is concretely not the mechanism for superiority, and third, the matter of the ambiguity of what the phrase even means or if it refers to spatial dimensions in the first place is still being contested.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Deagonx @Qawsedf234 @DarkDragonMedeus

Standard site procedures says that any guide statements, especially cosmology ones, should have some support from the source material, no?