Nasuverse - Moon Cell Cosmology Re-Evaluation Part 1

[Regidian]

Culled off Timelines eventually cease to exist, leaving the current number of active timelines as finite.

Yes. But the culled Timeline still exist in Universe of Record. (It's how Lostbelt come to existed).

In fate it exist two type of domain of reality the Universe if Awareness/Observation where the time flow normaly and the Universe of Record.

Universe of Observation" refers to a domain of reality wherein the Concept of Time is expressed as "Time Within Conscious Recognition" also referred to as "Universe of Awareness". Per the circumstances of human consciousness, the events of the Past, Present, and Future cannot in this expression of time be distinguished as categorically discrete, as the Future continuously passes unto the Present, and the Present into the Past. In exchange for an incapacity to perceive that which lies beyond the Present, one whose awareness is attuned to the "Universe of Observation" obtains the capacity to alter the Present referred to as Tomorrow.

"Universe of Record" refers to a domain of reality wherein the Concept of Time is expressed as "Time Submitted to Record" -- such that the Past, Present, and Future can be distinguished as categorically discrete entities per a chronological record of proceedings. The timelines represented within the Adjacent World Simulator of the Moon Cell Automaton may be collectively considered a "Universe of Record."

観測宇宙

時間の概念の在り方が「認識される時間」である世界、もしくは視点のこと。
「認識される」とは、過去・現在・未来の三様が同時に知覚されていないことを意味する。
例えば人間の知覚では、過去は常に現在に更新されその現在からいずれくる未来を観測しているので、三様は同時に知覚されていない。
観測宇宙の利点は、現在から先は見通せないかわりに当事者は未来を変化させられる揺らぎを持っていること。これにより明日という現在を変革できる。

記録宇宙

時間の概念の在り方が「記録される時間」である世界、もしくは視点のこと。
「記録される」とは、過去・現在・未来の三様が同時に知覚されていることを意味する。
例えば何次元か上の知覚を持つ高次元の存在にとって、三次元世界は巻物に書かれた世界のようなものであるため、巻物の中にいる自分の過去と現在と未来を、いつでも記録として同時に知覚できる。
ムーンセルの中枢は過去と現在と未来が同時に存在し、あらゆる可能性を演算する並行世界シミュレーターであるため、記録宇宙の存在である。


The culling of the Quantum time lock is strictly for the Universe of Awareness, these timeline are not culled in the Universe of Record.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worldsroutes removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled , so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.

The Mooncell has concluded that the means by which our Universe of Awareness -- fundamentally unstable by nature -- is stabilized across the Past, Present, and Future lie in the execution of "culling" and the formation of "records".

一定の間隔で事象の平均値を固定化するタイミングの事。
この宇宙は無数の可能性を許容し、多くの並行世界、違う展開の歴史を生み出している。
しかしそれを際限なく行うと宇宙の寿命が尽きてしまう為、一定のタイミングで「もっとも強く、安定性を持ったルート」から外れた特例の世界ルートを伐採し、エネルギーの無駄な消費を防いできた。
本来なら不安定な我々の認識宇宙を現在・過去・未来にわたり安定させているのはこの「伐採」と「記録帯」によるものとムーンセルは結論づけている。

 

[Deagonx]

"Universe of Record" refers to a domain of reality wherein the Concept of Time is expressed as "Time Submitted to Record" -- such that the Past, Present, and Future can be distinguished as categorically discrete entities per a chronological record of proceedings. The timelines represented within the Adjacent World Simulator of the Moon Cell Automaton may be collectively considered a "Universe of Record."

Right now we are working out the characteristics of the physical universe, not the moon cell.

Yes. But the culled Timeline still exist in Universe of Record. (It's how Lostbelt come to existed).

What are the scans for this Lostbelt thing? When you said it's in the Recorded Universe, are you saying it was stored in the Moon Cell?

I read that Lostbelts are Worlds that are cut off completely but are artificially sustained beyond the point at which they would be pruned. So this doesn't apply to all culled timelines.

 

[Regidian]

Right now we are working out the characteristics of the physical universe, not the moon cell.


What are the scans for this Lostbelt thing?

It's part of the physical Universe. Moon cell is not the Universe of Record, moon cell just work in the same way.

.

Not really all culled world are called Lostbelt like i show here. But the second part of Fgo is about seven of them that were simulated
based on their culling point. not artificialy subtained. They are subtained after being simulated from their transplantation to earth by the Fantasy tree.

It's still not discard their existence in the Universe of Record. Since the culling only happen in the Universe of Awareness.

INS is part of Universe of Record and it have all unobserved possibility.

"Scathach-Skadi: Unlike my Norse mythology, which viewed the world as born dualistic, other religions often had a defined concept of primordial chaos. Heaven and earth, warm and cold, good and evil, all united harmoniously. Therefore the primordial chaos is a grandmother of the world, which includes all possibilities... The Imaginary Number Space is a space that contains as many possibilities as it. I believe the primordial chaos contains all possibilities for it has everything mixed in it, while Imaginary Numbers contain all possibilities for they are unobservable. Thus, this is the inner side of our world, unobservable territory. A place not even detectable by the currently existing laws of physics. Meaning all possibilities can be hypothesized there

 

[Deagonx]

Not really all culled world are called Lostbelt like i show here. But the second part of Fgo is about seven of them that were simulated
based on their culling point. not artificialy subtained. They are subtained after being simulated from their transplantation to earth by the Fantasy tree.

But the whole point of Cosmos of the Lostbelt is those seven lost belts fighting eachother to become the "real history" and not get deleted. The basic premise of that season doesn't make sense if you contend that they stick around no matter what.

Everything I can find on the subject of Lostbelts suggest they are special exceptions that stick around when they aren't supposed to, not the default fate of all pruned timelines.

 

[Regidian]

But the whole point of Cosmos of the Lostbelt is those seven lost belts fighting eachother to become the "real history" and not get deleted. The basic premise of that season doesn't make sense if you contend that they stick around no matter what.

Not really since they stick around but in Universe of Record. Not in the Universe of Awareness. They are deleted from Universe if Awareness, but still exist in Universe of Record bcz time don't work in the same way so everything exist in there.

Nobody tell they weren't the exception since they are simulated to exist in the Universe of Awareness. What i tell you
is that culled timeline still exist in Universe of Record

 

[Deagonx]

What I have read on the subject explicitly indicates that this is wrong.

It is unknown how exactly that the timelines selected by the Fantasy Trees managed to exist until the present day, as they would have ceased to have exist entirely within a century of being designated for culling due to Quantum Time-Locks.
A Lostbelt without its Fantasy Tree can last no more than a few months (from its inhabitants' perspective- an outside observer will see it vanishing immediately) before the culling process is completed, at which point the Lostbelt and all of its surviving inhabitants will be erased from reality as if they never existed.

So, no, not all pruned timelines stick around as lostbelts indefinitely. The culling process takes a few months, at which point they are erased from reality like they never existed. The only exceptions to this are Lostbelts that are sustained with Fantasy Trees.

 

[Regidian]

What I have read on the subject explicitly indicates that this is wrong.

It is unknown how exactly that the timelines selected by the Fantasy Trees managed to exist until the present day, as they would have ceased to have exist entirely within a century of being designated for culling due to Quantum Time-Locks.
A Lostbelt without its Fantasy Tree can last no more than a few months (from its inhabitants' perspective- an outside observer will see it vanishing immediately) before the culling process is completed, at which point the Lostbelt and all of its surviving inhabitants will be erased from reality as if they never existed.

So, no, not all pruned timelines stick around as lostbelts indefinitely. The culling process takes a few months, at which point they are erased from reality like they never existed. The only exceptions to this are Lostbelts that are sustained with Fantasy Trees.

One more time nobody tell they sticking around in the Universe of Awareness. I tell they still exist in Universe if Record and i litteraly showed that Moon cell tell that Quantum time lock only exist in Universe of Awareness.

Did you read the previous comment of the Universe of Awareness and Record ?

 

[Deagonx]

Regidian, I read all your comments. Let's cease the back and forth now so Firestorm and I can discuss the matter further.

 

[Regidian]

Regidian, I read all your comments. Let's cease the back and forth now so Firestorm and I can discuss the matter further.

You readed yet you litteraly ignored it. Since you don't even consider them as different or consider what the moon cell explain

 

[Firestorm808]

Regidian, I read all your comments. Let's cease the back and forth now so Firestorm and I can discuss the matter further.

Discussion regarding this Universe of Record will be done later.

Regarding Active Real World Timelines, I think we have assurance that they are some finite amount.

 

[Deagonx]

I agree. Also, Regidian, you were given permission to say "one quick thing" in this thread, not to continuously argue. You said your piece, but the point about the Lostbelts was false, the primary plot point is that they are erased as though they never existed, so enough of that point.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What I have read on the subject explicitly indicates that this is wrong.

It is unknown how exactly that the timelines selected by the Fantasy Trees managed to exist until the present day, as they would have ceased to have exist entirely within a century of being designated for culling due to Quantum Time-Locks.
A Lostbelt without its Fantasy Tree can last no more than a few months (from its inhabitants' perspective- an outside observer will see it vanishing immediately) before the culling process is completed, at which point the Lostbelt and all of its surviving inhabitants will be erased from reality as if they never existed.

So, no, not all pruned timelines stick around as lostbelts indefinitely. The culling process takes a few months, at which point they are erased from reality like they never existed. The only exceptions to this are Lostbelts that are sustained with Fantasy Trees.

Mind cite the source of this text? (add it to your original post and delete this message).
Also, if this is from TM wiki, then it seems unreliable source.

 

[Firestorm808]

Keeping to the Real Word side of things, are we ready to move onto the Earth itself or are there more questions regarding Active Timelines?

 

[Deagonx]

For my part, I am satisfied with the conclusions drawn.

 

[Firestorm808]

Mind cite the source of this text? (add it to your original post and delete this message).
Also, if this is from TM wiki, then it seems unreliable source.

It's from the Grand Order Wiki Page, but it's a summary of the Lostbelt Arc premise.

youtube.com/watch?v=uf3-j9xQnj0&list=PLXMAQxFuzVTZ3dLEUkEyy10W1ARaNSHzH&index=15&t=2s

The actual scans are somewhere in there, but it's pretty straightforward: Fantasy Trees stave off Culling Erasure.

 

[Firestorm808]

For the people that deleted it's an important question. If infinite sized universe can't have finite energy then i have a feat that show that the universe in fate is based on an infinite one, and so the argument of finite energy is invalid.

I don't see how this relates to the Quantum Time Lock Mechanic.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't see how this relates to the Quantum Time Lock Mechanic.

It doesn't, Regidian is just derailing. They only had permission to post "one quick thing" and repeatedly ignored requests to stop perpetuating the argument so that staff could discuss, and reposted a deleted comment immediately, so I issued a temporary thread ban.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I agree. Also, Regidian, you were given permission to say "one quick thing" in this thread, not to continuously argue. You said your piece, but the point about the Lostbelts was false, the primary plot point is that they are erased as though they never existed, so enough of that point.

No, he wasn't, I gave him permission to argue here as one of the remaining few members in the entire wiki who is actually knowledgeable about Nasu. He has been posting scans and statements about his points the entire time. If you want to say he is derailing right now for topics that are to he discussed later, then you can, but acting like only yours and Firestorm's opinion matters is ridiculous, specially since as far as I know, neither of you have so much as touched anything from this series.

 

[Firestorm808]

To answer Regidian's question, if I'm understanding it right, an infinite-sized 3-D universe amounts to High 3-A levels of energy; however, the energy needed to sustain timelines would need to be 4-D or Tier 2 level.

Based on the Quantum Time Lock Mechanic, there is limited 4-D energy to go around and sustain finite active timelines.

 

[Deagonx]

No, he wasn't, I gave him permission to argue here as one of the remaining few members in the entire wiki who is actually knowledgeable about Nasu. He has been posting scans and statements about his points the entire time. If you want to say he is derailing right now for topics that are to he discussed later, then you can, but acting like only yours and Firestorm's opinion matters is ridiculous, specially since as far as I know, neither of you have so much as touched anything from this series.

I mixed up his authorization with BestMGQ's, but that said, looking at Firestorm's wall he asked for authorization and was told no, so I find it somewhat problematic that he sought out you after getting a no from him.

Regardless, he was asked to dial it back and was not doing that.

And I have no idea why you think I haven't touched anything fate related, but that simply isn't the case at all.

Also, I'm not pretending only me and Firestorm's opinions matter. But this is a staff discussion thread. It's meant to primarily be staff.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I've got to respond again because some of these points are really bad to just leave people to assume they're correct blindly

Yes, exactly. This was Paul's rebuttal to it:

However, that does not seem logical to me. If the initial amount is infinite, it seems impossible that the addition of more would somehow exhaust the universe. I would be more inclined to think that the ideal reconciliation of that information is that it's not truly infinite, but can be described as infinite because of this information:

This reconciliation doesn't make sense because it ignores what is actually said. It explicitly says the issue is the propagation (addition) specifically, whether or not you think that doesn't make sense is ultimately irrelavant because it's outright what's said. And that much can not be ignored. Like "it seems impossible the issue is X" when the text says the issue is X, is a textbook argument from incredulity and holds no weight at all.

Moving on, your earlier argument is that "the qtl thing is more believable because it isn't a one off mention of infinity", but it's the opposite. It's the one off thing that says there isn't infinite, as in, it's one vs several over the course of years, this is sort of just objectively what an outlier is, and this would be an outlier to assume it in the way you are currently, one statement vs a consistently repeated sentiment over the course of 15 years, including after this statement, it's very clear which is more important.

I was under the impression that the beginning of time started with 1 timeline that branched off. It has the potential to reach infinity, but the culling prevents this.

Culled off Timelines eventually cease to exist, leaving the current number of active timelines as finite.

This is incorrect as well, it never started with one timeline, because there are multiple types of worlds to begin with. It's impossible to all be branching off a single timeline, for instance, Tsukihime and Fate worlds are diametrically opposed in their very foundation, they aren't split off eachother, same thing with KnK, or FSF, etc. Its impossible for there to be one that's branched off and results in where we are now because of that, these worlds are considered very distinct and completely incompatible, there isn't some "prime timeline" rather that's explicitly impossible due to multiple different foundations existing.

As I said, based on the multiple repeats of saying there are infinite, there were already an infinite amount which is what is split off of, the fact that there exists worlds incompatible with eachother is pretty clear evidence that it's not "starting at one and expanding but unable to reach infinity"

Also just, your actual first part is incorrect. Its impossible for it to "be able to reach infinity" but be prevented from doing so by culling deleting a finite amount, thats not how infinite works, and thus cant be what the multiple infinite statements mean

Yeah, I think this is a good example of how the verse tends to play fast and loose with the word "infinite" and use it in a practical rather than literal sense.

"Matou Sakura's stock of magical energy reaches a trillion. As it cannot be used within a lifetime, it can be called an infinite supply."

Then it talks about Rin being able to match her by repeatedly drawing mana into the sword from the same individual cavern, over and over again, from "one of the infinite parallel worlds."

But as we can see above, Sakura's infinite magical supply isn't actually infinite, so why not the same for these parallel worlds? The text then says "If your supply is inexhaustible, mine is limitless!" But this doesn't necessarily mean that the timelines are infinite, because the various possibilities will continue to branch off and never stop, so even if they are eventually culled by the Quantum Time Lock, Rin will always have new possibilities to draw mana from.

This does the exact opposite of show the verse plays fast and loose with the word infinite, what? It shows that they treat infinite as something very distinct from things that are functionally infinite or inexhaustible, in other words, it shows that useage of infinite means infinite. In fact, this scene also completely makes your own point impossible.

It differentiates inexhaustible from actually infinite, citing that Rin has infinite because of there being infinite parallel worlds whereas Sakura merely had an inexhaustible supply via her connection to the grail, which she cant use all of. Your counter to this is "well, maybe it just means new worlds are made when others are deleted" but this instantly contradicts the entire point of the scene. That would make Rin's energy source the same as Sakura's, not actually infinite, but just inexhaustible since new sources keep appearing. It'd be the same as her no longer infinite, but just a finite amount that didn't run out, this of course, is the opposite of what the scene says, and goes out of its way to differentiate between.

Which means this interpretation just can not possibly be true at all, it completely ignores the actual scene to establish a really weird contradictory headcanon explanation.

To answer Regidian's question, if I'm understanding it right, an infinite-sized 3-D universe amounts to High 3-A levels of energy; however, the energy needed to sustain timelines would need to be 4-D or Tier 2 level.

Based on the Quantum Time Lock Mechanic, there is limited 4-D energy to go around and sustain finite active timelines.

No, again, the statement says there isn't energy for the propagation, I'm not sure how clear this can get, it's not sustaining them that's the issue mentioned in the mats or Altera route.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan...

But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds...

it really doesn't get any more clear, you can say it doesn't make sense, but it's quite literally just how the verse works and arguing otherwise is ignoring the literal text. And again, your interpretation clashes with CCC saying there's infinite, FSN saying there's infinite, FGO saying there's infinite in the main story, FGO saying there's infinite in events etc, so even when ignoring the fact it's specifically the proliferation that's the issue, it's just the outlier as a statement

I mixed up his authorization with BestMGQ's, but that said, looking at Firestorm's wall he asked for authorization and was told no, so I find it somewhat problematic that he sought out you after getting a no from him.

He asked Crimson first actually, and just didn't get a response until later

Regardless, he was asked to dial it back and was not doing that.

He has no reason to, as he sort of has to post scans and explain things so staff can read it, and not sit to themselves in their own interpretation devoid of evidence and agree with eachother and refuse to change view points. Threadbanning him doesn't help anything, it just hinders delivering evidence or points or the small amount of discussion actually occurring here.

And I have no idea why you think I haven't touched anything fate related, but that simply isn't the case at all.

Considering you're literally quoting tm wiki, hyperlinks and all, I'm going to have to say that's probably why that's assumed

Also, I'm not pretending only me and Firestorm's opinions matter. But this is a staff discussion thread. It's meant to primarily be staff.

It may be meant to primarily be staff, but the thread itself is pointless if there isn't actually correct information being posted. If instead it's left purely to the only two active staff, who haven't read everything and already came to their conclusions, then when other staff come in there's not much for them to actually base decisions on. The actual supporters of the verse, who aren't staff btw, have to be able to post in order to dispell misinformation and incorrect things being said. It's not like that hurts staff discussion because there just isn't any staff discussion happening anyway

Further, something brought to my attention on discord, this entire weird timeline number tangent the thread was turned to is derailing as a whole, the thread itself is about the dimensions, and as I'm sure you know, the number of timelines just, isn't important for that.

 

[Firestorm808]

This is incorrect as well, it never started with one timeline, because there are multiple types of worlds to begin with. It's impossible to all be branching off a single timeline, for instance, Tsukihime and Fate worlds are diametrically opposed in their very foundation, they aren't split off eachother, same thing with KnK, or FSF, etc. Its impossible for there to be one that's branched off and results in where we are now because of that, these worlds are considered very distinct and completely incompatible, there isn't some "prime timeline" rather that's explicitly impossible due to multiple different foundations existing.

As I said, based on the multiple repeats of saying there are infinite, there were already an infinite amount which is what is split off of, the fact that there exists worlds incompatible with eachother is pretty clear evidence that it's not "starting at one and expanding but unable to reach infinity"

Also just, your actual first part is incorrect. Its impossible for it to "be able to reach infinity" but be prevented from doing so by culling deleting a finite amount, thats not how infinite works, and thus cant be what the multiple infinite statements mean

Whether the beginning of time started with one timeline or some other number, the point of the Quantum Time-Lock mechanic remains. When a certain threshold of timelines is reached, the timelines are culled.

Being able to propagate toward infinity does not mean infinite timelines were achieved. That would dismiss the entire point of the Quantum Time-Lock mechanic. Let's say the timelines grow from the beginning of time from 10, 100, 1000, etc. If unchecked, it would go on forever toward infinity. However, the Quantum Time Lock kicks in at some finite amount, say 1,000,000.

The idea that there are and always will be infinite active timelines concurrently is incompatible with the reason for culling in the first place, needless expenditure of energy.

 

[Firestorm808]

No, again, the statement says there isn't energy for the propagation, I'm not sure how clear this can get, it's not sustaining them that's the issue mentioned in the mats or Altera route.

"Unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe"

"prevent the needless expenditure of energy"

"The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds exists nowhere within this Dimension."

Both suggest that there is a limited amount of energy used for the propagation of branch timelines.

The fact that Universe's lifespans can be reduced due to too many timelines also shows this limitation of energy.

 

[Deagonx]

Agreed, Firestorm. The info for its limitation is extremely direct, and the main point of contention seems to be whether the best way to reconcile the conflicting information is to more-or-less assume the QTL is illogical and doesn't really matter or to assume that references to "infinite timelines" refer to the constant limitless addition (that is later culled by QTL based on the criteria described).

I'm inclined towards the latter.

To the point of the Rin and Sakura fight, it was argued that my interpretation would render the clear delineation between their types of infinite power moot, but this is just incorrect.

Sakura's was called inexhaustible because she had a trillion, using a thousand at a time, and would never use it in a single life time.

Rin is limitless because she can pull from alternate timelines. The argument that this must be simultaneously coexisting infinite timelines, lest it be no different from Sakura's "inexhaustible" pool isn't accurate, because new timelines will always be created.

Even in my interpretation there's a clear difference. Sakura will eventually run out, not in this lifetime but the trillion is a concrete finite amount that she is reducing slowly. That's not the case with Rin in either interpretation, so that delineation doesn't mandate simultaneous infinite timelines, and isn't a good enough reason to contradict the QTL.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Paul makes more sense to me

 

[Paul_Frank]

Whether the beginning of time started with one timeline or some other number, the point of the Quantum Time-Lock mechanic remains. When a certain threshold of timelines is reached, the timelines are culled.

Being able to propagate toward infinity does not mean infinite timelines were achieved. That would dismiss the entire point of the Quantum Time-Lock mechanic. Let's say the timelines grow from the beginning of time from 10, 100, 1000, etc. If unchecked, it would go on forever toward infinity. However, the Quantum Time Lock kicks in at some finite amount, say 1,000,000.

The idea that there are and always will be infinite active timelines concurrently is incompatible with the reason for culling in the first place, needless expenditure of energy.

Except again, you're entirely just not reading whats said, nothing says it happens when a certain number are reached, it specifically, explicitly in plain text, says its the propagation that's the issue. You're somehow turning that into "too many can't exist so they get culled and thus can't be infinite" but that's just outright not what the text says, you keep ignoring this.

Infinite timelines isn't incompatible with culling if you read the actual line as its written, that propagation is an issue, not the number. If propagation is the issue specifically as the text says which I have posted multiple times, infinite can exist without problem, this contradiction between infinite and culling that your argument hinges on only exists when you outright ignore the text plainly stating that the issue is proliferation and propagation, rather than how many there are.

Agreed, Firestorm. The info for its limitation is extremely direct, and the main point of contention seems to be whether the best way to reconcile the conflicting information is to more-or-less assume the QTL is illogical and doesn't really matter or to assume that references to "infinite timelines" refer to the constant limitless addition (that is later culled by QTL based on the criteria described).

I'm inclined towards the latter.

Yes, it is extremely direct, however you seem to be dodging it. Because it again, doesn't say what you're arguing it says. It says the proliferation is the issue, you then argue that's illogical, but that's not your choice to make, again as I said above, simply seeing what's written and deciding, "that doesn't make sense to me so its false" is fallacious. It also again, ignores the fact that the statement itself is an outlier if taken the way you are, there's no reasonable way to look at it, say "yep, this means infinite timelines can't exist" and then ignore every other piece of the verse

To the point of the Rin and Sakura fight, it was argued that my interpretation would render the clear delineation between their types of infinite power moot, but this is just incorrect.

Sakura's was called inexhaustible because she had a trillion, using a thousand at a time, and would never use it in a single life time.

Rin is limitless because she can pull from alternate timelines. The argument that this must be simultaneously coexisting infinite timelines, lest it be no different from Sakura's "inexhaustible" pool isn't accurate, because new timelines will always be created.

Even in my interpretation there's a clear difference. Sakura will eventually run out, not in this lifetime but the trillion is a concrete finite amount that she is reducing slowly. That's not the case with Rin in either interpretation, so that delineation doesn't mandate simultaneous infinite timelines, and isn't a good enough reason to contradict the QTL.

This is incorrect, Sakura's trillion will not run out, it will similarly be replenished as she obtains it from the connection to the grail, fun fact. So we arrive back at the initial point, your entire argument contradicts the scene entirely. You run into "Rin has an inexhaustible amount because she will never use up all of the finite energy" vs "Sakura has an inexhaustible amount because she will never use up all of the finite energy", which as I said is just not what the text says.

You end up with Sakura having a finite amount which replenishes vs Rin who has an actually infinite source, via the text, your version turns it into Sakura having a finite amount which replenishes vs Rin having a finite amount which replenishes

 

[Migue79]

The reason why they’re equal is because not only is their AP equal, neither of them have a mana supply issue. Kind of the whole point with Sakura even being shook as to why Rin wasn’t running out of mana.

 

[Deagonx]

Except again, you're entirely just not reading whats said, nothing says it happens when a certain number are reached, it specifically, explicitly in plain text, says its the propagation that's the issue. You're somehow turning that into "too many can't exist so they get culled and thus can't be infinite" but that's just outright not what the text says, you keep ignoring this.

Well, we're certainly not ignoring it, it's just that your theory doesn't really seem logical, and there are other sources for the QTL that do not specifically say the proliferation is the problem.

Logically, There is no comprehensible reason why proliferation of additional timelines would be problematic for a universe that has truly infinite timelines. The basic premise of the Quantum Timelock, in the multiple sources which describe it, contradict your theory. The alternative I am proposing allows for both the QTL and the infinite timeline statements to be accurate, if the references to infinite timelines are describing the constant proliferation of additional branches which are later culled. I much prefer that to your interpretation, which is that the QTL is based on a wholly illogical premise.

I am aware that you disagree and will never see it this way, but similarly, I don't ever see myself preferring the interpretation you are proposing.

"The universe has a finite amount of energy to spend maintaining each parallel world."

Maintaining, not just proliferating.

Simlarly:

"If parallel worlds continued to increase in this manner, their number would eventually exceed the capacity of this dimension. Parallel worlds must exist, but in a manageable quantity. By my own rough calculations, and judging by the civilization of Earth alone, this solar system would collapse within 100 years if the parallel worlds expanded without limits."

"Seeing as how we do, in fact, live and multiply, the solar system is clearly not oversaturated with possibilities at this time. I extrapolate that this dimension can sustain our existence for the next 100,000,000 years."

"The system works thusly: At regular intervals, the dimension takes stock of the possibilities it contains, and only allows certain outcomes, those that would not cause undue difficulty in managing the next generation, to remain. As for the unneeded parallel worlds, the system closes off their futures."

"Specificially, every 100 years, it calculates how many worlds will last another 100 years, and supports those worlds only. Have you heard of the Law of Conservation of Mass? This could be called the Law of Conservation of Events."

Again, explicitly stating that the total amount of timelines must be restricted. There's just no room here for infinite simultaneous timelines, the way I see it, only infinitely proliferated timelines, which is still reconcilable with other info as far as I am concerned.

This is incorrect, Sakura's trillion will not run out, it will similarly be replenished as she obtains it from the connection to the grail, fun fact. So we arrive back at the initial point, your entire argument contradicts the scene entirely. You run into "Rin has an inexhaustible amount because she will never use up all of the finite energy" vs "Sakura has an inexhaustible amount because she will never use up all of the finite energy", which as I said is just not what the text says.

Sakura's trillion is the grail, from what I gather, not something Sakura has that the Grail will infinitely replenish like what Rin can do with the parallel worlds. I don't see any indication in the evidence provided for what you're saying.

 

[Deagonx]

@Firestorm808 I know you wanted to discuss Earth, but given that this is a Moon Cell oriented thread perhaps it would be best to next address the nature/quantity of Moon Cell Timelines, and then after that tackle the dimensionality.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well, we're certainly not ignoring it, it's just that your theory doesn't really seem logical, and there are other sources for the QTL that do not specifically say the proliferation is the problem.

One, singular, not sources, a source, and even that source isn't actually a different one. You see, Quantum Timelock [CIRCUMSTANCES] is only found in the Extella materials. This is just a reworded version of that, incorrect reworded at that as it specifically mentions proliferation in japanese

Logically, There is no comprehensible reason why proliferation of additional timelines would be problematic for a universe that has truly infinite timelines. The basic premise of the Quantum Timelock, in the multiple sources which describe it, contradict your theory. The alternative I am proposing allows for both the QTL and the infinite timeline statements to be accurate, if the references to infinite timelines are describing the constant proliferation of additional branches which are later culled. I much prefer that to your interpretation, which is that the QTL is based on a wholly illogical premise.

"Logically there's no reason why" again, that doesn't matter, that's just objectively what's said. The premise of the QTL never contradicts what I'm saying unless you specifically take it to mean "too many is the issue" which is not said in any text

I am aware that you disagree and will never see it this way, but similarly, I don't ever see myself preferring the interpretation you are proposing.

"The universe has a finite amount of energy to spend maintaining each parallel world."

Maintaining, not just proliferating.

As stated above, this is just a rewording of the QTL mat I've posted the line from multiple times, incorrectly reworded as well, so as to completely remove the fact its the addition that matters, when it specifically states that the issue is "際限なく行う" or to preform endlessly

Simlarly:

"If parallel worlds continued to increase in this manner, their number would eventually exceed the capacity of this dimension. Parallel worlds must exist, but in a manageable quantity. By my own rough calculations, and judging by the civilization of Earth alone, this solar system would collapse within 100 years if the parallel worlds expanded without limits."

"Seeing as how we do, in fact, live and multiply, the solar system is clearly not oversaturated with possibilities at this time. I extrapolate that this dimension can sustain our existence for the next 100,000,000 years."

"The system works thusly: At regular intervals, the dimension takes stock of the possibilities it contains, and only allows certain outcomes, those that would not cause undue difficulty in managing the next generation, to remain. As for the unneeded parallel worlds, the system closes off their futures."

"Specificially, every 100 years, it calculates how many worlds will last another 100 years, and supports those worlds only. Have you heard of the Law of Conservation of Mass? This could be called the Law of Conservation of Events."

The localization of the Extella prologue is infamously mistranslated, not just the prologue, the entire game was butchered in its English translation, adding and removing a bunch of things and completely changing the meaning of stuff (like randomly calling Gae Bolg light for instance). If you check the original japanese text, or hell, the fan translation, you get instead

But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds, exists nowhere...

interesting, proliferation is mentioned again, rather than the number, this is what I've been saying, the actual number is not said to be the issue, the addition is, regardless of whether you think that makes sense or not, its simply the fact of the verse, ignoring it just because you think it doesn't make sense is nonsense, and yet again, something you haven't addressed is this singular statement just being the only one of its kind as opposed to 15 years worth of statements

Again, explicitly stating that the total amount of timelines must be restricted. There's just no room here for infinite timelines, the way I see it.


Sakura's trillion is the grail, from what I gather, not something Sakura has that the Grail will infinitely replenish like what Rin can do with the parallel worlds. I don't see any indication in the evidence provided for what you're saying.

No, Sakura's trillion is what she currently has from the grail, the grail itself replenishes energy, this is the entire reason why multiple grail wars and summonings and everything are possible, it does this in multiple ways, like it feeds off the ley lines for instance.

 

[Deagonx]

"Logically there's no reason why" again, that doesn't matter, that's just objectively what's said.

Well, no, certainly it isn't. This depends solely on accepting your personal interpretation of all the sources as absolute fact. You keep asserting that we simply aren't considering the evidence, but the argument I am making incorporates all of that evidence, just not in the way you would prefer it to. We won't see eye to eye on this, but I maintain that my approach is more logical, because your theory is predicated on an illogical interpretation of QTL, which I don't see as being at all necessary.

The localization of the Extella prologue is infamously mistranslated, not just the prologue, the entire game was butchered in its English translation, adding and removing a bunch of things and completely changing the meaning of stuff (like randomly calling Gae Bolg light for instance). If you check the original japanese text, or hell, the fan translation, you get instead

But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds, exists nowhere...

interesting, proliferation is mentioned again, rather than the number, this is what I've been saying, the actual number is not said to be the issue, the addition is, regardless of whether you think that makes sense or not, its simply the fact of the verse, ignoring it just because you think it doesn't make sense is nonsense, and yet again, something you haven't addressed is this singular statement just being the only one of its kind as opposed to 15 years worth of statements

I found the fan translation you are pulling that quote from. The lines immediately after it seem to support what I am saying.

But why do such realities become solitary? Shouldn't it be that whatever the future, the possibility of adjacent advancement persists?

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds, exists nowhere within this Dimension.

That is to say, the ceaseless proliferation of Parallel Worlds may eventually exceed the capacity of the Dimension as a whole.

Parallel Worlds are a necessary existence, but they cannot be let to freely multiply.

It's a very rough estimation, but should the Earth persist at its present level of civilization for another century, it's likely that the Solar System will collapse.

....

This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worlds routes removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled, so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.

So, plainly speaking, even in this fan translation rather than the official translation, the universe is very firmly finite in terms of how many timelines it can have, and without this process the lifespan of the universe would shorten from 100,000,000 years to 100 years.

No, Sakura's trillion is what she currently has from the grail, the grail itself replenishes energy, this is the entire reason why multiple grail wars and summonings and everything are possible, it does this in multiple ways, like it feeds off the ley lines for instance.

The text very clearly explains he "inexhaustible/infinite nature" of Sakura's magical supply in terms of the finite number of it reaching a trillion, and says nothing about it being inexhaustible due to replenishment from the Grail. So this is kind of a moot argument, even if that really is the case, the delineation you're attempting to use to assert infinite simultaneous timelines is bunk, because replenishment was not a part of that delineation in the text.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well, no, certainly it isn't. This depends solely on accepting your personal interpretation of all the sources as absolute fact. You keep asserting that we simply aren't considering the evidence, but the argument I am making incorporates all of that evidence, just not in the way you would prefer it to. We won't see eye to eye on this, but I maintain that my approach is more logical, because your theory is predicated on an illogical interpretation of QTL, which I don't see as being at all necessary.

Deagon, I want you to read carefully, what is the key word they say is the issue here.

Unfortunately, this isn't the case. The energy to account for the proliferation of unnecessary worlds

or how about here

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan

or hmm, maybe the raws say something else, oh wait no they don't

しかしそれを際限なく行うと宇宙の寿命が尽きてしまう為、一定のタイミングで“もっとも強く、安定性を持ったルート” から外れた特例の世界（ルート）を伐採し、エネルギーの無駄な消費を防いできた。 本来なら不安定な我々の認識宇宙を現在　過去　未来にわたり安定させているのはこの『伐採』と『記録带』によるものとムーンセルは結論づけている。

So yes, this isn't even dependent on my interpretation, this is dependent on reading the plain text right before your eyes and seeing what they're saying the issue is. The text quite simply does not agree with you. This is not a matter of differing interpretations where either one may be right, this is a matter of the text saying one thing and you saying another, and then ignoring the fact that it saying this other thing contradicts the entire franchise, and thus wouldn't be usable anyway

The text very clearly explains he "inexhaustible/infinite nature" of Sakura's magical supply in terms of the finite number of it reaching a trillion, and says nothing about it being inexhaustible due to replenishment from the Grail. So this is kind of a moot argument, even if that really is the case, the delineation you're attempting to use to assert infinite simultaneous timelines is bunk, because replenishment was not a part of that delineation in the text.

Neither was timelines constantly spawning in, this is a non argument. If you're trying to bring reasoning from outside the text to explain your assumption, I'll simply bring the actual things in the franchise from outside the text to show why your interpretation contradicts the scene. Going with purely what's in the text, your interpretation contradicts it and nothing is mentioned about worlds being culled but being spawned fast enough like you're saying, going with things outside the text too, your interpretation still fails because then they're both merely inexhaustible and contradicting the entire message of the scene, in either regard your assumption simply does not hold up

 

[Deagonx]

Deagon, I want you to read carefully, what is the key word they say is the issue here.

Okay, now I ask you to do the same:

That is to say, the ceaseless proliferation of Parallel Worlds may eventually exceed the capacity of the Dimension as a whole.

If proliferation is left unchecked, it will eventually exceed the capacity of the universe, no? But your contention is that the capacity is infinite. I'm sorry, but the text quite simply does not agree with you. The universe has a concretely established limitation on how many timelines it can contain, which would mean it is not infinite. You must either dismiss this entirely -- despite being an important aspect of how the cosmology works -- or interpret the various "infinite timeline" statements in the same framework as statements like this:

This universe permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history.

Thus allowing both to co-exist in harmony. I find this far preferable.

Neither was timelines constantly spawning in, this is a non argument. If you're trying to bring reasoning from outside the text to explain your assumption, I'll simply bring the actual things in the franchise from outside the text to show why your interpretation contradicts the scene. Going with purely what's in the text, your interpretation contradicts it and nothing is mentioned about worlds being culled but being spawned fast enough like you're saying, going with things outside the text too, your interpretation still fails because then they're both merely inexhaustible and contradicting the entire message of the scene, in either regard your assumption simply does not hold up

The timelines were. Whether they are simultaneously infinite or "infinitely propagating" is not expanded upon. You have taken one interpretation, I have taken the other, but neither is actually in the text. My point is that the "inexhaustibility" of her magical supply was in direct relation to the finite quantity that couldnt be used in a lifetime, which means either interpretation allows this delineation to still be sensible, contradicting your earlier objection. So, no, my interpretation does not contradict the fight scene between Rin and Sakura.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Paul_Frank

Can you please explain your logic that "proliferation of unnecessary worlds" or "growing new timelines" doesn't require energy when we are told that energy shortages cause timelines to end early?

 

[Migue79]

Ok, had a long day today (final year of Masters degree final exam preparation be ******* damned). 3 things…

The reason why they’re equal is because not only is their AP equal, neither of them have a mana supply issue. Kind of the whole point with Sakura even being shook as to why Rin wasn’t running out of mana.

Firstly, I’d like to clarify that I’m not saying this to say I agree with the notion that there aren’t infinite timelines. I still disagree with the contentions…

Secondly, found this pretty cool scan from the FGO Materials (which came out after Fate/Extella) about one of Chloe’s abilities which involve the Kaleidostick (which operates the same way as Rin’s Jewel Sword in extracting energy from parallel worlds). And down below… is the translation:

Infinite Magic Power Supply: B
Literally infinite magical energy is supplied from the Kaleidostick.
However, its output is limited by the performance of the caster's magic circuit.

Even uses the kanji for literally, ‘文字通り’. So… Yeah. This does indeed prove that the Rin vs. Sakura’s point is inexhaustible vs. literally infinite. Heck, I remember awhile back I read the JP raws of the scene and they literally use different kanji for ‘unlimited’ and ‘infinite’. So that’s also interesting to consider.

And thirdly, screw me for not saying this earlier, but I’m in agreement with Paul & Crimson here. Sorry, you two. I foolishly thought me kudosing your messages would’ve made that clear. Now to my sleep cavern I go.

 

[Firestorm808]

To reiterate, we are discussing whether the cosmological mechanic of QTLs and Culling is compatible with infinite concurrently active timelines.

We acknowledge that there are various energy statements throughout the franchise. However, what energy statements hold up when held against the lore and story?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Ok, had a long day today (final year of Masters degree final exam preparation be ******* damned). 3 things…

Firstly, I’d like to clarify that I’m not saying this to say I agree with the notion that there aren’t infinite timelines. I still disagree with the contentions…

Secondly, found this pretty cool scan from the FGO Materials (which came out after Fate/Extella) about one of Chloe’s abilities which involve the Kaleidostick (which operates the same way as Rin’s Jewel Sword in extracting energy from parallel worlds). And down below… is the translation:

Even uses the kanji for literally, ‘文字通り’. So… Yeah. This does indeed prove that the Rin vs. Sakura’s point is inexhaustible vs. literally infinite. Heck, I remember awhile back I read the JP raws of the scene and they literally use different kanji for ‘unlimited’ and ‘infinite’. So that’s also interesting to consider.

And thirdly, screw me for not saying this earlier, but I’m in agreement with Paul & Crimson here. Sorry, you two. I foolishly thought me kudosing your messages would’ve made that clear. Now to my sleep cavern I go.

Infinite Magic Energy Supply: C
A literally infinite supply of magic energy from the Kaleidostick. But due to the output being restrained by the user's own Magic Circuit's ability, Illya still yet to be able to show the stick's original power.

I'd like to mention that this skill has a rank of C and not EX
It means this ability can be measured, whereas a skill that has a rank of EX has this rank because it cannot be measured normally within the classification of skills and other stuff.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I'd like to mention that this skill has a rank of C and not EX
It means this ability can be measured, whereas a skill that has a rank of EX has this rank because it cannot be measured normally within the classification of skills and other stuff.

Ranks do not matter at all, they're easily the most inconsistent part of the verse, with them really only being there because it looks nice

 

[Deagonx]

On the subject of the timelines and 8-D Moon Cell, the evidence I have seen to me strongly suggests that the timelines are best interpreted as non-physical, that there are a finite amount of them, and that the "cuts to the eighth dimension" scan is not best interpreted as layers of superiority. I'll break my view on that down here:

Moon Cell's Nature:

There are many scans and statements in the series that explain rather concretely that the timelines in the Moon Cell are non-physical, and only represent data, not space time continuums. The wizards who enter them exist as spiritrons, but the worlds themselves are digital.

The said evidence is provided below, important parts bolded:

Wizards [Circumstances]
Wizards are the A-Rank hackers in the Fate/EX series.
Compared to other hackers, they possess an unusually high level of talent, and can send their very souls into digital worlds. They transform their souls, minds, and bodies not into digital information, but into spiritrons.
With their engineering skills, they can then use these avatars to navigate cyberspace. In other words, they are able to fashion "physical" shells, called Cyber Frames, within the digital world. Sentient beings within the digital world, whether they have truly physical bodies are not, can still be considered "alive.' in that they can affect change in their environments according to their own will and conditions.
While knowledge and skill are both obviously important to hackers, what's most important is their sense of connection between mind and body.
To be a true hacker, one 'must have the rare ability to clearly imagine the nature of one's body virtually as a sequence of numbers, utilizing a set of imaginary "nerves" known as "magical circuits." The Moon Cell recognizes beings with this ability, and allows them to cultivate its virtual space, pioneering new expansions as has been mankind's greatest purpose, and greatest sin, since the beginning.
For Wizards who have access to these possibilities, one could even say that cyberspace is a second reality to them. A Wizard's original body, hack on Earth, is merely its "house." Even if one's body on Earth should perish, they will be only be unable to return to that house, arid nothing more. They can remain in the new frontier of cyberspace, and as long as they are not extinguished there, their existence will continue on.
(However. Wizards who do lose their physical bodies also lose those bodies' natural resistance to change. While they can continue to exist as collections of data and values, they can then be much more easily manipulated.)
For a Wizard. "true death" is the death of his or her digital brain. The moment his or her soul burns out in the cyber world, they irrevocably turn to dust, impossible to revive.
The Main Character is a Wizard who now lacks a body on Earth, due to past events explained in a previous game, Fate/EXTRA.

Moon Cell [concept]

Formally called Moon Cell Automaton.
It is the energy storage device discovered within the Moon.
It is an artifact made by some non-human intelligent lifeforms, and is the super computer used as the setting for Fate/EXTRA.
There are seven layers confirmed so far in its cyber world structure. The first layer, which is the surface of the Moon, is accessible even to run-of-the-mill hackers.
To intrude into the second layer or deeper into the Moon is probably too difficult for non-wizards… or perhaps I should say that there is just no physical way to do so.
Transference of the soul — a body transformed into spiritrons, is necessary to be able to peek any further into the abyss.
Old world magi could connect with the interior portions of Moon Cell as part of meditation without using radio waves.
To put it simply Moon Cell is, “The eye that observes the Earth.”
Moon Cell is a computational device that accurately simulates all of Earth and its life forms, and can even accurately predict the future.
Moon Cell is a database of humanity. A colossal memory device that has recorded mankind’s ecology and history, and even the thoughts and souls of [all] people.
A Pandora’s Box that promises the next stage of evolution, promises god-like power to those intelligent lifeforms who have become technologically advanced enough to scan the interior of the moon.

Moon Cell's Core [location]
Moon Cell‘s core is Moon Cell.
As far as Moon Cell is concerned, the seven layers that make up the interior of the Moon are just “additional memory.”
Moon Cell‘s core is what really manages the Moon and observes the Earth. It is the brain that stores the data about the past and future.
It observes the determination of every possible destiny every second, computes further results, and stores everything inside itself as light.
There are untold tens of millions of lights years of light trapped within the core, and the entire photonic crystal structure is also powered by it.

Pseudo-Spiritron [concept]
Before, consciousness was thought to only manifest through a physical body. But magi managed to measure the position of “the soul” and redirect its output into a new world; the cyber world. They succeeded in allowing one to create a digital copy of themselves (a bunshin).
After this magi could transfer themselves into the digital world and carry out higher level information gathering.
The soul is a energy body that resides in a higher dimension, and is actually an unbelievably excellent information medium.

Soul [concept]
A soul resides in all life forms that are intelligent. It is spiritual life that is not part of any physical phenomenon.

The setting makes it abundantly abundantly clear that the world of the Moon Cell is a digital one, and that one must abandon their physical body and take on Spiritron form in order to enter. It is also clear that the "higher dimension" of the soul is not spatial or physical in any way.

Amount of Timelines

It is also the case that these timelines are finite. We can note that it says "Untold tens of millions of light years of light trapped within the core" but in addition to that, the Quantum Time Lock mechanism that prevents the Universe from having infinite timelines also applies to the Moon Cell:

"You understand, yes? There are no parallel worlds for a world that has evolved too fast or crumbled too quickly. Such worlds are merely dead ends whose outcomes are predetermined."

"And so, there is a set time frame in which these branches are trimed, extra possibilities are removed, and future histories, once fluid, turn to stone."

Such laws apply to the Moon Cell as well. The Moon Cell is a self-updating observatory, which continues to record every incident and possibility on Earth. You could say it makes the same observations on parallel worlds. It's all quite vexing."

"But in any case, the so-called Foundation of Humanity governs the Moon just as it does the Earth, tracking the various spiritron worlds and determining where their futures will come to an end."

"Once one passes that event horizon, there is no turning back, nor turning aside. Any lingering 'ifs' become 'might-have-beens.'"

By all indication, the Moon Cell also culls timelines, and avoids wasting data.

Dimensions of the Moon Cell

Finally, the dimensions. We've established that the term "higher dimensional" is used in a non-physical sense to refer to the soul, and that the Moon Cell is an entirely non-physical setting. From this perspective the idea of additional spatial axes seems illogical, but even moreso when you consider the evidence.

For a verse to be given qualitative superiority for spatial dimensions (which the evidence rejects in the first place) there must be proof of qualitative superiority. The following text is the basis for said qualitative superiority:

Rin :: The observed universe…? Ah, I mentioned that in my explanation, I guess. “There’s no passage of time here. If it were a loop we might still have hope…” was that it? A time loop is when time goes in a circle. It means you return to the past, so theoretically you could alter not only known situations, but also unknown ones. But we don’t have dreams like that here. Because no matter what happens the “result” can’t be changed. The far side of the moon is a world made of imaginary numbers. There’s a concept of time here, but the way it works is different from the real thing.

You would call it the difference between “recognized time” and “recorded time,” I guess. See, right now we’re standing here talking, and that’s the present, right? But, …one, two, three, and. Right. So now the previous me…what I said three seconds ago has become the “past.” Even though we’re still in the middle of the “same conversation.” That’s the flow of time according to your cognizance. Humans divide time and space into past, present, and future according to their own cognizance. That’s the very simple physical law of observed space. As we can’t see what will come after the present, there fluctuations in related parties can change the future. It’s too late now, but the real world and the near side of the moon are both operated as this observed universe. You understand so far?


Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that.

This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don’t know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware of “this present moment.” …your head gets mixed up thinking about it though. So as soon as she became the Moon Cell, BB was able to convey “this present moment” even to her past self. …So, BB knew from the beginning. That no matter what we wouldn’t make it in time.

It's very clear that BB's higher dimensional perspective is temporal, and allows her to transcend the restrictions of linear time, but this is primarily because she reached the peak of a supercomputer that stores these timelines as data, so the "data" of the past, present, and future, are all accessible to her simultaneously, which is natural given her position in the network.

Even setting aside the other problems with this, there is no way we could use this set of information to confer multiple degrees of infinity based on a higher number of dimensions, because this is clearly not a spatial form of transcendence, but temporal, and it would be meaningless to extrapolate that further upward, as the effect cannot meaningfully be stacked.

But that is secondary to the fact that this higher dimensional existence is explicitly not physical and can be directly accounted for through the lens of BB being able to view the data timelines in their entirety from the Core, because they are just data.

The following scan is what mentions an "eighth dimension."

"I am currently standing in front of the Moon Cell's last line of defense that's guarding the core"
"The Sakura Labyrinth will finally be able to penetrate into the core of the Moon Cell."
"The Moon Cell is being somewhat impudent, or its defenses seems to be impenetrable."
"Even though I was able to pass through the imaginary numbers with the speed of light."
"A giant wall now appears to stand before the devilish heroine BB-Chan"
"It's a perfectly circular-shaped protective barrier made up of spirit particles that is able cut up to the eighth dimension"

BB is attempting to reach the Core of the Moon Cell. Recall the earlier text:

Moon Cell‘s core is Moon Cell.
As far as Moon Cell is concerned, the seven layers that make up the interior of the Moon are just “additional memory.”
Moon Cell‘s core is what really manages the Moon and observes the Earth. It is the brain that stores the data about the past and future.

The core is separate from the seven layers. I think Chase's argument is probably that the phrase "cuts up to the eight dimension" could very easily just be referring to the Core, because it is explicitly guarding the Core that BB is attempting to enter.

However, even if that were not the case, we would still not be able to interpret these as spatial dimensions, because the Moon Cell does not have spatial dimensions. This world is purely digital, and BB describes herself as a being of information.

BB
Yes, this is Seraphix.

BB
Think of it as a zone made entirely out of light, where everything has been digitized into Pseudo-Spiritrons.

BB
As long as intellectual activity is taking place here, an information life-form like myself and an organic life-form like you can interact in the same space-time.

BB
Furthermore, knowledge, experience, and power sources you attain here will be carried over when you return to the physical world.

So in conclusion, I do not think that the Moon Cell should not be treated as containing infinite universes, rather, a finite amount of purely digital timelines. I also believe that BB's higher dimensional perspective is best view through the lens of the temporal transcendence she gains over these digital timelines by reaching the core, and I do not believe the "cuts to the eight dimension" phrase about the wall should not be seen as layers of infinite superiority, as that is a one-off line in a single bad ending, it could very well just refer to the core, it can't be spatial, and it can't be qualitative superiority.

From what I have seen, the phrase about Avalon "blocking communication up to the sixth dimension" is based on a similar premise referencing the BB "higher dimensional perspective" scans, so with that being the case, Avalon should likely also stop being interpreted as something that requires several layers of infinity to damage, as there is not evidence of that being the case.

It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).

 

[Regidian]

On the subject of the timelines and 8-D Moon Cell, the evidence I have seen to me strongly suggests that the timelines are best interpreted as non-physical, that there are a finite amount of them, and that the "cuts to the eighth dimension" scan is not best interpreted as layers of superiority. I'll break my view on that down here:

Moon Cell's Nature:

There are many scans and statements in the series that explain rather concretely that the timelines in the Moon Cell are non-physical, and only represent data, not space time continuums. The wizards who enter them exist as spiritrons, but the worlds themselves are digital.

The said evidence is provided below, important parts bolded:






The setting makes it abundantly abundantly clear that the world of the Moon Cell is a digital one, and that one must abandon their physical body and take on Spiritron form in order to enter. It is also clear that the "higher dimension" of the soul is not spatial or physical in any way.

Amount of Timelines

It is also the case that these timelines are finite. We can note that it says "Untold tens of millions of light years of light trapped within the core" but in addition to that, the Quantum Time Lock mechanism that prevents the Universe from having infinite timelines also applies to the Moon Cell:




By all indication, the Moon Cell also culls timelines, and avoids wasting data.

Dimensions of the Moon Cell

Finally, the dimensions. We've established that the term "higher dimensional" is used in a non-physical sense to refer to the soul, and that the Moon Cell is an entirely non-physical setting. From this perspective the idea of additional spatial axes seems illogical, but even moreso when you consider the evidence.

For a verse to be given qualitative superiority for spatial dimensions (which the evidence rejects in the first place) there must be proof of qualitative superiority. The following text is the basis for said qualitative superiority:



It's very clear that BB's higher dimensional perspective is temporal, and allows her to transcend the restrictions of linear time, but this is primarily because she reached the peak of a supercomputer that stores these timelines as data, so the "data" of the past, present, and future, are all accessible to her simultaneously, which is natural given her position in the network.

Even setting aside the other problems with this, there is no way we could use this set of information to confer multiple degrees of infinity based on a higher number of dimensions, because this is clearly not a spatial form of transcendence, but temporal, and it would be meaningless to extrapolate that further upward, as the effect cannot meaningfully be stacked.

But that is secondary to the fact that this higher dimensional existence is explicitly not physical and can be directly accounted for through the lens of BB being able to view the data timelines in their entirety from the Core, because they are just data.

The following scan is what mentions an "eighth dimension."


BB is attempting to reach the Core of the Moon Cell. Recall the earlier text:

The core is separate from the seven layers. I think Chase's argument is probably that the phrase "cuts up to the eight dimension" could very easily just be referring to the Core, because it is explicitly guarding the Core that BB is attempting to enter.

However, even if that were not the case, we would still not be able to interpret these as spatial dimensions, because the Moon Cell does not have spatial dimensions. This world is purely digital, and BB describes herself as a being of information.



So in conclusion, I do not think that the Moon Cell should be treated as containing infinite universes, rather, a finite amount of purely digital timelines. I also believe that BB's higher dimensional perspective is best view through the lens of the temporal transcendence she gains over these digital timelines by reaching the core, and I do not believe the "cuts to the eight dimension" phrase about the wall should be seen as layers of infinite superiority, as that is a one-off line in a single bad ending, it could very well just refer to the core, it can't be spatial, and it can't be qualitative superiority.

From what I have seen, the phrase about Avalon "blocking communication up to the sixth dimension" is based on a similar premise referencing the BB "higher dimensional perspective" scans, so with that being the case, Avalon should likely also stop being interpreted as something that requires several layers of infinity to damage, as there is not evidence of that being the case.

The wizard that enter the digital world still have physical body just different one, like this scan show where the avatar of her soul was destroyed. While these timeline are simulated they are still very much having space/time. (And in first being digital doesn't not having space/time see digimon).

We see here tamamo and Kiara clearly talk about space, reversal of time and distance.

殺生院キアラ
銀河の果てに飛ばしたのに??！
概念宇宙であれ、一瞬で
詰められる距離ではありません！
光より速く飛んできたとでも！？

Sesshouin Kiara
Even though you were flung to the edge of the galaxy......!
Even if this is a conceptual space, you shouldn't have been able to cross that distance in an instant!
Are you able to fly faster than light?

キャス
もち、光より早く飛んできました！
なにしろ、ダンナ様が悪魔に
たぶらかされるかの瀬戸際ですから。

Caster
Of course, I came flying faster than light!
At any rate, I won't let my master by seduced by a demon in this critical moment.

時間の逆行もなんのその、
馬頭星雲から銀河系まで無に短縮！
これがゼロ距離恋愛というものです！

The reversal of time is nothing special as well, just reduce to zero the distance from the Horsehead Nebula to this galaxy.
This is called zero distance love!





Or with here the Fate Extella MC who we clearly talk about his BODY being separated inside moon cell, meaning it's physically here. (And we can't talk about not being fiable as it's the premise of the story of the game. Without that no game.)

In Fate/EXTELLA, as the ruler of SE.RA.PH, Hakuno demonstrates a serious and level-headed calm to situations, though can be surprised and shocked by certain situations like any other character. This kingly aptitude has earned them loyalty of other Servants - including former enemies they fought in the Grail War such as Gawain and Li Shuwen. However, after splitting themselves into three different parts to prevent the Regalia from being used to destroy the Moon Cell, Hakuno's self is broken up amongst his three selves.

The Soul of Hakuno, the Master of Caster, shows a cool and level-headed approach while at the same time being something of a pushover, easily folding under Caster's tyrannical actions. That said, they are very passionate and like their Mind and Body counterpart, they show nothing but the utmost faith and love for their Servant.


For the second part i don't understand what it would mean that the soul is not really higher dimmensionnal (concept can be higher dimmensionnal too without being physical and like the 9D soul of DMC existed) We know from multiples source that it's one.

It is something independent from the body, not belonging to the same material world. It is an existence of a higher order in concept of the astral plane, acting as a record of the body containing the memories, mind, and Magic Circuits. The body itself can be called a terminal for the soul to move around, and the soul itself can be considered an invincible command structure.

These feat too.




For the part of QTL your own scan show clearly that it's Moon cell that do it too itself and not QTL that do it to the moon cell + one of the IA of Moon cell tell it have infinity possibility




And moon cell tell itself that the QTL exist only for the Universe of Awareness.

However, as the unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe, at set intervals, those extraneous worldsroutes removed of the category of "routes characterized by survivability and stability" are culled, so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy.

The Mooncell has concluded that the means by which our Universe of Awareness -- fundamentally unstable by nature -- is stabilized across the Past, Present, and Future lie in the execution of "culling" and the formation of "records".


For the last part is already discussed in discord with Ultima and compagnie so we can talk it later since it's these part that it's really important.