Nasuverse - Moon Cell Cosmology Re-Evaluation Part 1

[Chasekilleen]

Hi everyone,

Before I start the thread, I just wanted to let everyone know that I have permission from Qawsedf234 to post this CRT and on the Staff Discussion forum.​

I just want to make it clear that I would like to keep this thread civil and rational as I am aware this topic can rough a lot people's feathers. However just hear me out before you make any judgement, please. Please do not be aggressive and if you do disagree with my translations, please elaborate on why you disagree and I will try my best to explain how I got to that conclusion. I do not think it is appropriate to insult me just because you disagree with my interpretations.

The only reason why I am this downgrade thread is because it seems over the past few years due to the lack of an adequate fan-translation, Fate Extra CCC has been severely misrepresented since 2016.
And judging from the translations I have seen Tsukinoura. I think they have misinterpreted many things regarding Fate Extra CCC (in my honest opinion)

The first misconception is that the Moon Cell has supposed 8-dimensions, but that is taken out of context and if you take into account of BB's entire statement it makes sense. There is no evidence that those are actual spatial dimensions, this is a similar case to how someone used argue that Yakou Madara's shields are 24-dimensions, but the context talks about how the shield is 24-layers in order to block Ootake's assualt, we know that as the correct context, because the kanji uses 障壁, the game never stated that the shields were made up of time and space, the only time where they mentioned that was when Madara deployed those shield through the gaps of space-time.

This is the same case here where it is talking about the amount of layers that the Moon Cell has, as there are various characters calling it a literal moon.
Just think of those layers as onion layers, which I'll be going into later.

Spoiler: 8D debunk

"I am currently standing in front of the Moon Cell's last line of defense that's guarding the core"

"The Sakura Labyrinth will finally be able to penetrate into the core of the Moon Cell."

"The Moon Cell is being somewhat impudent, or its defenses seems to be impenetrable."

"Even though I was able to pass through the imaginary numbers with the speed of light."

"A giant wall now appears to stand before the devilish heroine BB-Chan"

It's a perfectly circular-shaped protective barrier made up of spirit particles that is able cut up to the eighth dimension (Cut off any intruders from infiltrating towards the core of the Moon Cell).

"It seems that this is going to pose quite a challenge for me to break through this barrier."

"However, if I just cut down this wall then I'll be able to reach my goal."

"So, please continue to entertain me with your futile struggle in this layer, sempai."

I think it is clear from the Japanese context that it is referring to the defensive barrier cutting anyone off to its eighth layer, which is where the core resides in. It isn't talking about spatial dimensions, whatsoever.

Well, you might be asking "What is the Moon Cell"?
As the in-game characters from Fate/Extra CC and the guide book has said, it is a literal supercomputer within a moon, made to observe the human history, its purpose is to record every aspect of Earth. The scans below are from the CCC game and the Fate Extra CCC guidebook

Spoiler: Moon Cell observing Earth

The Moon Cell is a different beast altogether when it comes to observation.
The Moon Cell seems to have been meticulously recording and persevering Earth, no, the entire aspect of human history. It is the Eye of the God.

Spoiler: The Moon Cell Core

The Moon Cell's Core 「Location」
The Moon Cell and the core. Within the moon itself there are seven known layers. In fact, it is nothing more than additional memory to the Moon Cell. The core of the Moon Cell manages the moon itself. It observes and preserves the Earth's past and future. It observes and calculates everything including the very fine details of Earth's history, even the fate branching from the different timelines.
Named by a certain individual, this crystal structure is powered by billions upon billions of light that it had stored.
It is a system that observes fate. It is able to converge light with just data, enabling it to rewrite the laws of physics.

Spoiler: The Backside of the Moon Cell

The Backside of the Moon Cell (Setting)
The main setting of CCC
The moon is beautifully divided into two halves, with the front of the moon facing towards the Earth and the opposite side of the moon that isn't able to observe Earth, just think of it as the backside of the moon
Fate/Extra takes place on the surface of the moon (first layer) and players must progress towards the seventh layer, then to the core of the Moon Cell. CCC (with no layers) is on the backside of the moon, Although the paths that they travel are different, both polar sides aim towards the centre of the moon.
The backside of the moon contains information that Moon Cell deems unnecessary, similar to a garbage site.
This is known as the imaginary number space, which consumes the data that it deems as malicious. It is only harmful to humans or in other cases, to intelligent life forms.
The backside of the moon is the highest taboo area where even the "eye" of the Moon Cell's centre is unable to enter.
The data entered here are consumed by humanity's evil, losing its existence.
It is akin to an ocean, continuing to collect any polluted data coming from Earth.

Spoiler: Moon Cell itself

The Moon Cell 「Setting」
Officially known as the Moon Cell Automaton is an energy storage device that was discovered within the moon itself.
It is an artifact built by a group of intelligent species that differs from humanity. It is a super-computer that serves as the stages of Fate/EXTRA, the structure has been confirmed up to the seventh layers. With the first layer serving as the surface of the moon itself, able to be hacked by any run-on-the-mill hackers. However, up to the second layer, it is impossible to physically access the deeper layers without being a wizard.
The Moon Cell is described as "the eye that observes Earth." It is a computer that's able simulate all lives on Earth, even can make accurate predictions of the future.
It houses a massive collection of database about humanity, it records everything from ecology, history and thoughts to souls itself.

As we have seen in the scans posted above, the Moon Cell is nothing more than an observation tool used to observe and record Earth. The Moon Cell takes into account everything, predicting the Earth's future, storing everything as light itself. This includes animals, humans, souls, history. As stated by Rani, the Moon Cell does not contain universes, but only virtual simulations of predicted versions of Earth. As you with the scans posted below in the Fate/Extra CCC game.


Furthermore, the backside of the moon having no concept of time and distance doesn't amount to much either, because according the full context of the scans between Rani, Rin, Leo and Gado; it's flowery language and the characters constantly self-contradict whether the Backside of the Moon Cell has concept of time or not. Characters like Rani claims that there the concept of space nor time, yet Sakura suggested to distort time itself on the Backside of the Moon Cell. And Rin told Hakuno that there is a concept of time on the Backside of the Moon.

Spoiler: Regarding the Moon Cell having concept of time

"Although the Backside of the Moon does have a concept of time, it is a world made up of imaginary number, the way it works here is different to our reality."

Well, now that you might be asking, what about BB's "higher-dimensional view of the timelines"? Well, it is simple to understand. Considering the context, talks about the fact that BB has essentially became the Moon Cell and the core operates under the recorded universe. The Moon Cell is essentially an eye that records human history and stores it in the form of data that is composed of light. Therefore giving BB a higher perspective. She is acasual, but she isn't multiversal.



The scan talks about how 3-D beings and people from the Observed Universe can still move and interact inside a space that's operating in the laws of the Recorded Universe. Space that operates in the laws of the Recorded Universe however allows for beings with higher perspective to view this space from above. It wouldn't work in the observed universe. Because that works in different laws. So even if BB had this higher dimensional perspective, she can't utilize it in the observed universe. Because CCC takes place in the Backside of the moon and not in the the Frontside of the Moon.

My new proposal:
I would like to propose to make Fate/Extra's Moon Cell to Low 1-C. The main reason is due to the fact is that the 8-D is misrepresented and that the Moon Cell being Low 1-C via scaling from Avalon is more appropriate, as the Moon Cell was never stated to have dimensions, the dimension is referring to the layers that the Moon Cell. And because the Moon Cell records everything about the Earth, this includes the Avalon. Hence my justification to downgrade the Moon Cell to Low 1-C.
The Moon Cell doesn't contain universes, but different versions of Earth itself. The words "timeline", "parallel worlds" are all synonymous to the Moon Cell recording and storing possibilities of Earth itself (可能性、並行世界 in Japanese)

Spoiler: The Moon Cell's operation

This is also how the Moon Cell operates.
The Moon Cell is an automated observation device that continuously record all events and possibilities of the Earth. You could also consider this to be the observation of parallel worlds. It is quite ominous.

Oh boy, here comes the big elephant in the room everyone.
So everyone remembers Saver's profile here, it details how the Moon Cell Chakravatin will "all parallel universes will cease operation." and that "in about 1200, seconds, the discontinuation of all possibilities will begin."
That is a gross mistranslation by the English sub group.
Never does the Japanese state that the Moon Cell was shutting down a single universe, let alone all parallel universes.

The correct statement should be:

Spoiler: Chakravatin's correct translation

事象選択樹選定機構
チャクラヴァルティン伐採準備を整いました
全ての並行世界運営停止
全ての可能性断絶開始まであと１２００秒

Phenomenon Selection Tree
Preparations for the purging of all timelines has been completed by Chakravatin
All parallel worlds will now begin to cease operation
In about 1200 seconds, all possibilities will begin to discontinue

The context of the Japanese script talks about the possibilities/timelines of Earth itself, and not the multiverse. Therefore, the Moon Cell is only low 1-C via the Avalon. The Moon Cell doesn't contain universes, nor a multiverse, it only contains timelines of recorded Earths.

Thank you very much for your attention, if you disagree or have any concerns whatsoever, please put it in reply and please, and please be specific on where you feel it is incorrect. And remember to please stay rational and I really do appreciate it everyone could back off on the insults. Thank you.

 

[Firestorm808]

Please submit a translation request to our request thread to verify the context of the original Japanese text.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/official-translation-requests-thread-new-forum.107531

 

[Deagonx]

I agree, I have long felt the same way but didn't have the time to formulate it so succinctly. I always felt as thought the 8-D scan was using on far too speculative a basis. I think it is ideal for this to take place in Staff Discussion so that it does not become clogged with impassioned arguing. Once we get confirmation on the translations, we should definitely discuss this amongst staff.

 

[Paul_Frank]

I got permission to comment here because the Nasu staff is too lazy to comment themselves

Anyway oh boy, time to tackle the crux of this thread, and the most objectively wrong part, the translations, most specifically the layers part

You'll note that in the part where BB mentions 8 dimensions, they use 八次元., which is literally, inarguably, 8 dimensions, this part literally can't be argued, so unlike your previous attempts where you wanted to translate that directly to layers, you're instead trying to argue context implies it. The only issue is, it doesn't.

You see, your argument is that its implying that its a barrier that cuts off the 8th layer from anyone reaching it, this doesn't work for a few reasons. Firstly, that's just not what the sentence says, it says 八次元までカットする霊子防壁ですね. A key part of that is をカットする, which is directly modifying it, to say that the wall is cutting through the 8 dimensions, not protecting an 8th dimension. With this in mind, this tl can not function, it can not cut through 8 dimensions if you're arguing the dimensions are actually the layers of the Mooncell, since, not only does it not have 8 layers, it can't be cutting through the thing its supposed to protect, that's like building a wall going through my house and saying its stopping people from accessing my house, its just not true

Lets get into why you think this layers argument is even possible. In the Fate/Extra Materials Book (Note, this is for Extra, not even the same game this statement comes from which is CCC, which should already show anyone with any logical deduction that its weird to apply it here) they say this

Moon Cell [Circumstances]
Official name: Moon Cell Automaton.
An energy-storing body discovered inside the moon.
An artifact constructed by non-human intelligent life.
A super computer that is the setting for Fate/EXTRA.

Up to a seventh level has been structurally identified in cyberspace, and the first level, the surface of the moon, is accessible by even normal hackers.
Going beyond the inner second level is difficult for non-wizards, there is no way to get inside physically.
Without soul transference, without having a data body converted into virtual spiritrons, it isn't possible to look into the abyss.

This is in fact saying that there are layers to the Mooncell, well done yes, but you'll note, its never once related to the dimensions mentioned in CCC, as you're trying to imply, in fact the Japanese text in that mat line entirely lacks the word dimension, as you know, much like the Japanese text in BB's line completely lacks the word layer. So not only is this in a book entirely unrelated to the scene you're applying it to, neither scene mentions the key word from the other, in other words, there's not a single thread connecting these two and this argument is illogical.

However, you know what context does support here? That it meant dimensions as in dimensions, because, you see, not too far away from when this line is mentioned, do we get our explanations of the nature of higher dimensions. This means it is far more likely, and logical, for this line to be referring to actual dimensions, which are elaborated on not that far away, as opposed to the layers mentioned in a guidebook for Fate/Extra. To further corroborate this, CCC has an interesting line in specific that applies to it, further shutting down the idea that it could possibly mean layers or floors. This line is also interesting, in that it shows that there's no way for your 8 layers argument to work because there's only 7, one you yourself included in the OP

While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor of the Near Side and heads for the seventh floor ~ the core, CCC starts from the Far Side (no concept of floors). Though the path may differ, the end goal for both is the core of the Moon Cell

As I stated, this line directly states that the Far Side (where CCC takes place) has no concept of floors (layers), meaning it can't be cutting through those, but even ignoring that, another part is that according to this the seventh floor, or seventh layer, is the core of the Mooncell. There are not 8 layers for your tl to work with, and thus it falls apart. You added in something in your tl though, to try and avoid this point, adding "and then the core" to differentiate the 7th layer from it, however that's not in the raws like, just at all, the line is 第一層から第七層～中心に向かうものとしたら. You're taking the tilde there as saying from the 7th to the core, for some reason. This just, doesn't actually make sense when you think about it at all, because that makes the sentence read "While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor and heads for the seventh floor then to the center" Rather than the much more realistic sentence of "While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor and heads to the center". So given that, it actually makes more sense that the sentence is merely saying something along the lines of identifying the given 7th layer in the sentence, as the core, making the line read more like "While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor and heads for the seventh floor~the center, CCC blah blah blah"

Now even if you want to argue its separating the 7th and the core, despite my disagreement, as I said above this doesn't make sense, because you can't protect the core (asserted as being the 8th layer) from intruders to it, by cutting straight through it, that simply does not defend it at all, meaning by literally every possible way of looking at things, the layer angle is objectively incorrect, undefendably so.

As we have seen in the scans posted above, the Moon Cell is nothing more than an observation tool used to observe and record Earth. The Moon Cell takes into account everything, predicting the Earth's future, storing everything as light itself. This includes animals, humans, souls, history. As stated by Rani, the Moon Cell does not contain universes, but only virtual simulations of predicted versions of Earth. As you with the scans posted below in the Fate/Extra CCC game.

Furthermore, the backside of the moon having no concept of time and distance doesn't amount to much either, because according the full context of the scans between Rani, Rin, Leo and Gado; it's flowery language and the characters constantly self-contradict whether the Backside of the Moon Cell has concept of time or not. Characters like Rani claims that there the concept of space nor time, yet Sakura suggested to distort time itself on the Backside of the Moon Cell. And Rin told Hakuno that there is a concept of time on the Backside of the Moon.

I'm not even sure how to begin responding to this section because it is hilariously wrong.

First part, "its only an observation tool and it just stores simulations and not universes" Issue is, these simulations simply are universes, like, plain and simple. They're entire universal timelines themselves, each and every one of them, this has always been a weird argument because it seems to just try to go "well you see they're said to be simulations therefore they're actually 11-C" but that's simply not how it works. Possibilities in Nasu are timelines that exist, this is something mentioned in like 5 different works, the Mooncell specifically contains an infinite amount, we've seen that they're all timelines unto themselves which exist in the Mooncell, I don't really have much else to say to this, its just wrong, so next

"No concept of distance and time is contradicted". Ngl I'm not sure what the point of this section is but I'll address it anyway?

Firstly, Rin does say there is one, however what's important to note is that its completely alien to what we know as time, that's the whole point. Second literally who is Gado, do you mean Gatou? Thirdly, and most importantly, arguing it was just flowery language is illogical when you actually look at the full context, contrary to what you say, because the entire point of the scene is to explain how INS works, this is elaborated on again more recently in FGO. In imaginary numbers space, the concepts of existence there are not the same, to the point in order to even be in there you have to no longer be registered as something which exists, and even then you're still alien to it. Due to this, and its position as something similarly above our idea of time as other higher dimensional things (its explicitly said multiple times to be higher dimensional, and higher dimensional things in relation to time have been explained, seen here)

This is the same thing. We're in imaginary space, a higher-dimensional infosphere formed of light.

Due to this, time does not function the same at all, and entering it at all has effects on time as perceived outside of it specifically. This is to say, time won't pass within it (we see this with Trisha Fellows for instance, and Tamamo's tails, time does not exist and thus pass in INS, therefore those things don't die or change), however time outside of it is different, with time waves and other such things that can throw you through time when you leave, because to INS, all of time is the same.

This line explains what Rin was saying, you yourself have seen this line, but to explain precisely why it explains anything, we need to look at the explanation of higher dimensions, they see time all at once as flat yada yada. INS "has a concept of time" that is different from ours because its above our concept of time, its quite simple. However this brings me to your next part in the op

Well, now that you might be asking, what about BB's "higher-dimensional view of the timelines"? Well, it is simple to understand. Considering the context, talks about the fact that BB has essentially became the Moon Cell and the core operates under the recorded universe. The Moon Cell is essentially an eye that records human history and stores it in the form of data that is composed of light. Therefore giving BB a higher perspective. She is acasual, but she isn't multiversal.


The scan about talks abou how 3-D beings and people from the Observed Universe can still move and interact inside a space that's operating in the laws of the Recorded Universe Space that operates in the laws of the Recorded Universe however allows for beings with higher perspective this ability to view this space from above It wouldn't work in the observed universe. Because that works in different laws. So even if BB had this higher dimensional perspective, but she can't utilise it in the observed universe. Because CCC takes place in the Backside of the moon and not in the the Frontside of the Moon.

You just, completely misread and or mistl'd this entire section. So lets start with the idea that this only works in the recorded universe if you have a higher dimensional perspective, because that's not at all what's being said. What's happening is Rin is literally just explaining how higher dimensional perspective works, with her quite literally just saying

Viewed from a higher dimension, even a three-dimensional object is the same as a flat scroll.

Like... If the three-dimensional world was mere writing in a book, and you jumped to escape from the book, right?

The past, present, and future of the "You" that was just in that book... You'll be able to look down upon all of it as mere records.

This would be a higher-dimensional perspective. Get it?
In cases like those, the entirety of time within that book would become interchangeable.

This does not at all say that a higher dimensional perspective can only be used in the universe of record, instead that if you were able to view them, its the same as if you were higher dimensional. In fact, they even further conflate it with the given imaginary numbers statement, saying that the INS itself is a higher dimensional thing, and so with BB gaining that as part of her, she assumes a higher dimensional perspective by also being higher dimensional.

Your version of the story, where BB is just the recorded universe and can only use her power there, is also further proven wrong in the literal following statements

Whereas the core of the Moon Cell is a parallel world simulator, an entity that views the past, present, and future as one and calculates all possibilities.

In short, an existence of the Universe of Records.
BB has become that very same Moon Cell, and gained a higher-dimensional perspective.

This is saying that BB, having become the Mooncell and consumed the core, has gained the mentioned higher dimensional perspective which allows her to see the past present and future at once, rather than her being in and exercising power over a universe of records, its instead saying that she, as the mooncell, is an existence capable of perceiving the universe as that. The idea that she can somehow only use her power in a universe of records is also contradicted by the fact that we are shown that's not true, you see, CCC only exists because she has used her power to begin with, pulling us into the predetermined outcome that is her becoming the Mooncell. This means that prior to her pulling our world into it, our world was not even arguably a universe of records, because it wasn't the backside.

Even worse, this logic doesn't actually make any sense when you think about other things you've shown. If the Mooncell's core, which records and views the past present and future as one, observes the actual World, how can it possibly only be the case in the Universe of Records? It observes the actual world, which isn't the universe of records, as one, past present and future, meaning it has that higher dimensional perspective and influence over the observed world too. I'm not even sure how I can further respond to this part its just, grossly wrong and filled with headcanon which your own scans contradict. Even worse, even if you wanted to argue that, for some reason, BB doesn't have higher d perspective in this scene, and its only in the universe of record, that doesn't change the fact that the scene itself explains how higher dimensions work, meaning the 8 dimensions she got through and the Mooncell contained before she consumed it, qualified as truly higher d, and thus she's still higher d via it, so not only is it wrong, but it fails to address the 8d entirely

Oh boy, here comes the big elephant in the room everyone.
So everyone remembers Saver's profile here, it details how the Moon Cell Chakravatin will "all parallel universes will cease operation." and that "in about 1200, seconds, the discontinuation of all possibilities will begin."
That is a gross mistranslation by the English sub group.
Never does the Japanese state that the Moon Cell was shutting down a single universe, let alone all parallel universes.

The correct statement should be:

Spoiler: Chakravatin's correct translation

事象選択樹選定機構
チャクラヴァルティン伐採準備を整いました
全ての並行世界運営停止
全ての可能性断絶開始まであと１２００秒

Phenomenon Selection Tree
Preparations for the purging of all timelines has been completed by Chakravatin
All parallel worlds will now begin to cease operation
In about 1200 seconds, all possibilities will begin to discontinue

The context of the Japanese script talks about the possibilities/timelines of Earth itself, and not the multiverse. Therefore, the Moon Cell is only low 1-C via the Avalon. The Moon Cell doesn't contain universes, nor a multiverse, it only contains timelines of recorded Earths.

Thank you very much for your attention, if you disagree or have any concerns whatsoever, please put it in reply and please, and please be specific on where you feel it is incorrect. And remember to please stay rational and I really do appreciate it everyone could back off on the insults. Thank you.

This is just

No kek. So you're hyperfocusing on 並行世界 to argue "okay see, this doesn't say parallel universe, but parallel world, and thus it means the planet only gg" but this is wrong for a few reasons. Firstly, 並行世界 also translates to parallel universe (this is because everyone, including the Japanese, has them as interchangeable terms, no one has ever looked at parallel world and thought "yeah, just another planet existing in parallel"). So the line does in fact have the timelines as parallel universes but to further show why it literally can't be just the planet earth, you are aware that the simulations contain stuff far out from Earth right, to name one thing, the Horsehead Nebula is explicitly in there, this on top of literally everything saying parallel universe for the timelines, and further things showing its more than just Earth means this idea is just completely impossible.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I got permission to comment here

This is true not the second part I am genuinely too busy for this

 

[Deagonx]

If the main point of contention is the translations, it would be best not to have Paul and Chase go back and forth about the translations themselves and to simply have one of our trusted staff translators to settle the points of contention.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

If the main point of contention is the translations, it would be best not to have Paul and Chase go back and forth about the translations themselves and to simply have one of our trusted staff translators to settle the points of contention.

It's not, in fact, the main point, the main point is the existence of layers, which is argued independantly of translations.

 

[Deagonx]

It's not, in fact, the main point, the main point is the existence of layers, which is argued independantly of translations.

I was just going off of what Paul said:

time to tackle the crux of this thread, and the most objectively wrong part, the translations

 

[Deagonx]

First part, "its only an observation tool and it just stores simulations and not universes" Issue is, these simulations simply are universes, like, plain and simple. They're entire universal timelines themselves, each and every one of them, this has always been a weird argument because it seems to just try to go "well you see they're said to be simulations therefore they're actually 11-C" but that's simply not how it works. Possibilities in Nasu are timelines that exist, this is something mentioned in like 5 different works, the Mooncell specifically contains an infinite amount, we've seen that they're all timelines unto themselves which exist in the Mooncell, I don't really have much else to say to this, its just wrong, so next

On this part, I will contend that the scan very directly says that the Mooncell is a device for observing earth, and says that the "parallel worlds" are the possibilities of earth. I haven't seen the evidence that suggests that possibilities are true timelines, but even if they were, it's very clear that the possibilities only entail Earth, not the universe.

This is also how the Moon Cell operates.
The Moon Cell is an automated observation device that continuously record all events and possibilities of the Earth.
You could say that the Moon Cell records these possibilities as parallel worlds. It is quite ominous.

I can't speak to the accuracy of the translation, but the progression seems very logical. If the Moon Cell is directly described as an Earth-observation device, recording the possibilities of Earth, and these possibilities are the parallel worlds, then they definitely aren't universes.

Possibilities in Nasu are timelines that exist, this is something mentioned in like 5 different works, the Mooncell specifically contains an infinite amount

Regarding this, I haven't seen the evidence detailing that it contains an infinite amount, but there seems to be evidence against that notion in scans from Fate/Extella. For instance:

Quantum Time Lock:

This universe allows countless possibilities to exist, thus allowing it to create many parallel worlds and historical developments. However, letting the expansion of these possibilities will lead to the universe's energy to be completely exhausted. During regular intervals, in order to conserve the universe's energy, these "strongest and most stable route" will be culled accordingly.

According to Moon Cell's conclusion, process of these constant culling is what stabilises the unstable Perceived Universe across the present, past, and future.

If left unchecked these branches would endlessly branch out, therefore the easiest way to visualise this situation is by continuously culling down these unnecessary branches and only leaving the trunk.

Even if one were to interfere with the Quantum Time Lock by altering the past and future, it will not affect it. Events that were caused by the Time Lock can never be changed, no matter what.

If someone were to alter the past by arrive at the Time Lock then history will forcefully restore itself.
Even if the time traveler were to alter something, they can only change the "process" but they are unable change the "results" that has already been set into stone.

And this set of scans, which read:

There is a certain hypothesis on Earth known as "Parallel Worlds" According to this hypothesis, Earth does not have a single possibility, but it is assumed to expand endlessly like a mirrored reflection.
As such, having an excessive amount parallel worlds will exceed the capacity of this universe's energy. Parallel worlds are essential, however too many can prove to be fatal. I have roughly calculated that if the course of human history on Earth continues to progress at this rate for another hundred years, then the solar system would burst.
Unfortunately no, they cannot. This universe itself has finite amount of energy, therefore it cannot expend any more energy to create new worlds that are too far gone.
The reasoning behind this is simple. Once the world has progressed up to a certain point in time, the universe selects which possibilities to preserve and those possibilities that are preserved will oversee and manage up to "the next era". However, parallel worlds that are deemed to be unnecessary will have their futures locked.

So it seems fairly concrete to me, assuming that these translations are accurate, that the Moon Cell very definitively contains Earths, not Universes, and that the number of timelines is concretely finite, as is the amount of energy in the universe.

 

[Firestorm808]

IIRC, there's a reason the other types can come and kill humanity without destroying the actual universe.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Weren't there multiple threads arguing over the Mooncell simulating just earths vs universes already, with each one coming to the conclusion that it is universes

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Yeah, unlike the issues regarding translations, these are under the purview of the Discussion Rule that had been made.

Not to mention how this ignores the rest of the cosmology, like the Textures and the fact that FGO has an event where a character gains an infinite amount of energy anyway and that character is said to be comparable to Buddha, who is really not that strong

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

IIRC, there's a reason the other types can come and kill humanity without destroying the actual universe.

The world is maintained by two (mostly opposing) forces, Gaia and Alaya, Gaia being the earth and alaya being humanity. The earth died in notes, yea but humanity still lived on in notes despite being evolved to the point that they can barely be considered human. This and the fact that Gaia and Alaya span across infinite timelines, meaning that you need to destroy infinite instances of both the planet and humanity before the world can be considered “dead”

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yeah, unlike the issues regarding translations, these are under the purview of the Discussion Rule that had been made.

Not to mention how this ignores the rest of the cosmology, like the Textures and the fact that FGO has an event where a character gains an infinite amount of energy anyway and that character is said to be comparable to Buddha, who is really not that strong

Yah going over the current Nasu Discussion Rule this thread isn't even allowed to begin with lol

 

[Firestorm808]

We currently have the following discussion rule:

Nasuverse Rules​

• Do not attempt to downgrade the tier 1 ratings of Nasuverse characters. Its cosmology, consistency, and ratings have been debated heavily over the years, and attempts at downgrades have frequently been rejected before (Examples include: this, this and this. Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen here and here). Debates over this have grown tiring, and proven to be a waste of time for all parties involved.

However, when I skimmed through the linked threads, none of them mentioned "qualitative superiority" or referenced the site's FAQ regarding our standards for higher dimensions.

This seems like an oversight. Is there a differenct thread/page that addresses our site standards more precisely?

 

[Paul_Frank]

However, when I skimmed through the linked threads, none of them mentioned "qualitative superiority" or referenced the site's FAQ regarding our standards for higher dimensions.

Why would any downgrade attempts, that are trying to say the dimensions don't count because X, specifically mention "qualitative superiority" or quote the FAQ directly, no normal human being does that and just fills every post with meaningless buzzwords

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions... think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you're able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record - that's the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There's no past or future. It's the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies...no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell's Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She's obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So - BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously. The moment BB reached the core, she obtained the power to select and determine the future. The Moon Cell, when used to be only the eyes of god, by combining with the AI BB, has become the brain of god. I don't know how many hours in the future it is, but at any rate BB has reached the Moon Cell. That fact alone is completely immovable. Having thus become a being of the recorded
universe, BB, able to make things true retroactively, became aware

The viewing of lower dimensions as flat imply there is an extra axis being added, which complies with the standards.

 

[Firestorm808]

Why would any downgrade attempts, that are trying to say the dimensions don't count because X, specifically mention "qualitative superiority" or quote the FAQ directly, no normal human being does that and just fills every post with meaningless buzzwords

Due to the complexity of such a franchise, that's why I'm asking if we have an existing thread or resource page that elaborates on our current rating of the cosmology.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Due to the complexity of such a franchise, that's why I'm asking if we have an existing thread or resource page that elaborates on our current rating of the cosmology.

Nasuverse: Cosmology Explained

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Firestorm808]

Nasuverse: Cosmology Explained

vsbattles.fandom.com

This is an incomplete cosmology blog draft.

Do we have the threads previously agreed by staff regarding the dimensions and reasons for their qualitative superiority for us to reference?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Due to the complexity of such a franchise, that's why I'm asking if we have an existing thread or resource page that elaborates on our current rating of the cosmology.

The crts that gave it the rating to begin with

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This is an incomplete cosmology blog draft.

Do we have the threads previously agreed by staff regarding the dimensions and reasons for their qualitative superiority for us to reference?

This is the thread that upgraded Nasu to tier 1 iirc https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-3-god-tiers.119096/

 

[Firestorm808]

This is the thread that upgraded Nasu to tier 1 iirc https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-3-god-tiers.119096/

Thank you.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hi. One thing I have to say is that the main premise of this post doesn't really fall under the discussion rule. The main premise is that the "8 dimensions" only refers to the defense mechanism of the moon cell to where it cuts off intruders at certain layers/barriers rather than it being actual higher dimensions. The other stuff is just supplementary to scale to avalon/earth which would downgrade it to 6D and supporting evidence to the not referring to literal dimensions. It's just pointing out how "dimensions" is essentially a homophone used for layers or barriers of the moon cell's defense mechanism. The extra stuff was just used as supporting evidence to new evidence/an interpretation. The discussion rule doesn't prevent tier 1 downgrades as a whole, but tier 1 downgrades off those premises. It's not really fair to close the thread because of the discussion rule.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Hi. One thing I have to say is that the main premise of this post doesn't really fall under the discussion rule. The main premise is that the "8 dimensions" only refers to the defense mechanism of the moon cell to where it cuts off intruders at certain layers/barriers rather than it being actual higher dimensions. The other stuff is just supplementary to scale to avalon/earth which would downgrade it to 6D and supporting evidence to the not referring to literal dimensions. It's just pointing out how "dimensions" is essentially a homophone used for layers or barriers of the moon cell's defense mechanism. The extra stuff was just used as supporting evidence to new evidence/an interpretation. The discussion rule doesn't prevent tier 1 downgrades as a whole, but tier 1 upgrades off those premises. It's not really fair to close the thread because of the discussion rule.

The 6D also still holds due to the R>F scroll analogy even if the earth is not big enough in size.

 

[Firestorm808]

Here's what I brokedown regarding the previous threads referenced in the discussion rules:

• Examples include:
  • this
    • No real staff discussion took place.
    • It mostly had Matt being hostile.
  • this
    • Just a low-effort copy-and-paste thread from Reddit.
    • No real discussion took place
  • this
    • Only CrimsonStarFallen participated.
• Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen
  • here
    • In regards to the Root.
  • here
    • Regarding the Moon Cell
    • Ant, Ultima, The_real_cal_howard, and QuasiYuri participated. Ultima being the only one going in-depth.

I have concerns regarding the peer review amount for a Tier 1 revision for such a large franchise. It would be beneficial if other staff knowledgeable on the Tier 1 requirements were to give their input regarding our standards to validate the certainty of the current ratings and reasonings.

@Ultima_Reality
@DontTalkDT
@Agnaa
@Qawsedf234
@Elizhaa

Your assistance is appreciated in this matter.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Hi. One thing I have to say is that the main premise of this post doesn't really fall under the discussion rule. The main premise is that the "8 dimensions" only refers to the defense mechanism of the moon cell to where it cuts off intruders at certain layers/barriers rather than it being actual higher dimensions. The other stuff is just supplementary to scale to avalon/earth which would downgrade it to 6D and supporting evidence to the not referring to literal dimensions. It's just pointing out how "dimensions" is essentially a homophone used for layers or barriers of the moon cell's defense mechanism. The extra stuff was just used as supporting evidence to new evidence/an interpretation. The discussion rule doesn't prevent tier 1 downgrades as a whole, but tier 1 downgrades off those premises. It's not really fair to close the thread because of the discussion rule.

This is the most "well technically" post I've seen, and it's not even correct. The discussion rule itself says to avoid downgrading the tier 1 ratings of the verse (this falls under that) then lists a few of the attempts along with the thread that upgraded them itself. Something you'll notice is that even in the initial thread upgrading it (and the downgrades) the idea of the opposition was "these aren't spatial dimensions", that is similarly exactly the idea here, just this time it's also (incorrectly) throwing the word layers around. The extra stuff wasn't even used as support really, it's just thrown in as well with no differences to argue the same thing it's always been used to argue rip
But I digress

I have concerns regarding the peer review amount for a Tier 1 revision for such a large franchise. It would be beneficial if other staff knowledgeable on the Tier 1 requirements were to give their input regarding our standards to validate the certainty of the current ratings and reasonings.

I have concerns with the fact you seemingly think only staff agreeing matters, and not the multiple others who are actually knowledgeable in there. Your observations such as "only Ant and Ultima participated" also are incorrect, people who were staff at the time like Cal and Yuri also agreed, along with more staff, it was pretty unanimously agreed on by staff there.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This seems like an oversight. Is there a differenct thread/page that addresses our site standards more precisely?

From the look of it there was just a lot of low/minimal effort threads to reverse an upgrade and they were so bad that a discussion rule was made.

The discussion rule itself says to avoid downgrading the tier 1 ratings of the verse (this falls under that)

Well it does, but that doesn't ban discussion. What it really means is that the arguments presented in previous threads shouldn't be used to make other CRTs to downgrade the verse. If someone came up with a new argument, which I feel this CRT does, then the discussion rule wouldn't apply.

Just think like this: Plenty of discussion rules have been changed or removed. Why? Because new arguments or information that was presented. It was never meant to be iron clad as much as to stop repeat discussions with the same information.

I have concerns regarding the peer review amount for a Tier 1 revision for such a large franchise. It would be beneficial if other staff knowledgeable on the Tier 1 requirements were to give their input regarding our standards to validate the certainty of the current ratings and reasonings.

I mean, if the only evidence is the Moon Cell barriers being 8D for 1-C I don't know if that's a legitimate 1-C justification. Not because it is or isn't Tier 1, but due to the size of the object. It had to be comparable to a universe in scope to get a Tier 1 rating afaik.

I have concerns with the fact you seemingly think only staff agreeing matters

While Firestorm got the amount of staff wrong, ultimately speaking for Tier 1 revisions its staff input that matters. So they aren't wrong about that.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have concerns with the fact you seemingly think only staff agreeing matters, and not the multiple others who are actually knowledgeable in there. Your observations such as "only Ant and Ultima participated" also are incorrect, people who were staff at the time like Cal and Yuri also agreed, along with more staff, it was pretty unanimously agreed on by staff there.

Apologies, I skipped over the "retired" tags by accident. I'll adjust my previous post accordingly.

 

[Deagonx]

I think the issue is worth revisiting, I agree with Firestorm.

With that said, these types of threads are prone to getting people worked up, so I am hoping we can be more stringent about participation, and to what extent. I think Paul gave thorough and well formulated input, but if every Nasu/Anti-Nasu regular gets carte blanche to make as many comments as they want here, this is going to devolve into a similar situation. I think it should be limited to initial posts like Pauls which give a full assessment, and responses to direct questions or follow ups, not just free reign to chime in at will. That's just me personally though.

 

[Deagonx]

Here's what I brokedown regarding the previous threads referenced in the discussion rules:

• Examples include:
  • this
    • No real staff discussion took place.
    • It mostly had Matt being hostile.
  • this
    • Just a low-effort copy-and-paste thread from Reddit.
    • No real discussion took place
  • this
    • Only CrimsonStarFallen participated.
• Threads that compile evidence for the tiers can be seen
  • here
    • In regards to the Root.
  • here
    • Regarding the Moon Cell
    • Ant, Ultima, The_real_cal_howard, and QuasiYuri participated. Ultima being the only one going in-depth.

I have concerns regarding the peer review amount for a Tier 1 revision for such a large franchise. It would be beneficial if other staff knowledgeable on the Tier 1 requirements were to give their input regarding our standards to validate the certainty of the current ratings and reasonings.

@Ultima_Reality
@DontTalkDT
@Agnaa
@Qawsedf234
@Elizhaa

Your assistance is appreciated in this matter.

I went through a few of these threads and I think there's definitely plenty that ought to be discussed. I found/still find a lot of the counter arguments pretty compelling, and when reading the rebuttals I'm left with a lot of questions or reasoning that I don't really agree with, but it's entirely possible that most staff will agree with the rebuttals instead. I'm being told this is all well-treaded ground and isn't worth discussing any more, but I don't think these points were debunked as definitively as some might have us believe, and there's no harm done in checking our work, no?

As an aside, I temporarily thread-banned Tdjwo, because he made three separate unauthorized comments in this thread, and all of them were inflammatory, so I strongly suggest he not be given permission to comment here by other staff, either.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I mean, if the only evidence is the Moon Cell barriers being 8D for 1-C I don't know if that's a legitimate 1-C justification. Not because it is or isn't Tier 1, but due to the size of the object. It had to be comparable to a universe in scope to get a Tier 1 rating afaik.

While Firestorm got the amount of staff wrong, ultimately speaking for Tier 1 revisions its staff input that matters. So they aren't wrong about that.

The moon cell governs entire timelines and such. You just need to have qualitative levels of superiority over a standard low-2c model, not actually be universe sized. Like how each of the books in the city of books are high-1c, despite appearing the size of a normal book to people who can access that area

 

[Qawsedf234]

Like how each of the books in the city of books are high-1c, despite appearing the size of a normal book to people who can access that area

Aren't the people who can get to the books the witches who can cross multiple other dimensional barriers including things that contain entire Multiverses? Overall I don't think using Umineko is the best comparison here.

EDIT: Came off a bit snarky there, so I toned down my comment. My apologies.

 

[Agnaa]

@Agnaa


Your assistance is appreciated in this matter.

It will not be provided.

 

[Firestorm808]

It will not be provided.

Thank you for letting us know.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The viewing of lower dimensions as flat imply there is an extra axis being added, which complies with the standards.

However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case.

Stated in the FAQ, any other evidence? Because this is weak implication that in matter of fact, is not complied with the standards.

 

[ImmortalDread]

It's worth noting that despite over 20 discussions about upgrades and downgrades, no one has created an updated cosmology page linked to the Nasuverse verse page.

This is important because all series are considered canon to each other, making it difficult to find reliable information. It would strengthen the argument if there was a dedicated page that people could refer to at any time.

This applies equally to the tier 1 Nasuverse. Therefore, the outcome of this or other discussions should include the creation of a cosmology page.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Aren't the people who can get to the books the witches who can cross multiple other dimensional barriers including things that contain entire Multiverses? Overall I don't think using Umineko is the best comparison here.

EDIT: Came off a bit snarky there, so I toned down my comment. My apologies.

The moon cell records different timelines and possibilities, the point i was trying to make is that higher dimensional objects can be viewed as finite from the outside, but can be infinite inside

 

[Qawsedf234]

The moon cell records different timelines and possibilities, the point i was trying to make is that higher dimensional objects can be viewed as finite from the outside, but can be infinite inside

Well recording data of something, even if it's the entire universe doesn't require something to be universal in scope. It can be higher dimensional without being 1-C. It would need to be spatially universal to get that rating based on dimensional axis alone.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This is dimensional manipulation.

what does that change? higher-d characters being able to do pretty much anything to lower ones implies qualitative superiority very strongly