Guidebooks/Databooks fall under secondary canon rules
A databook can be used as valid evidence without supporting scans from series, it just can't be used if scans from primary canon contradict the claim its making (EDIT: As an example this guidebook claim that Superman's reactions = speed has no contradicting elements while this one saying Orochimaru's snake summon counters all defense has dozens of contradicting elements and can't be used)
There's this.
In this case, we do have the game statement of the Moon Cell being finite. However, we should iron out the QS and dimension stuff before hashing out anything else, as Paul seems to think that whether or not the Moon Cell is infinite doesn't affect that.
You seem to have completely missed everything else I said. To reiterate, she says it is "finite" and thus the labyrinth must follow rules or whatever. However given everything else she's not actually saying things in the Mooncell, or the Mooncell itself, can't be infinite. At most she's referring to the idea that the outside is the Moon, as I've shown that the inside has infinite stuff, and is endless or bottomless or whatever according to explanations of it, in fact, Rani herself says it contains infinite stuff, the whole infinite possibilities being present thing.
Where is what in the text, that it's in the Moon? That's uhh, everywhere, just, literally every mention. Or do you mean where is "the inside isn't finite" in which case I posted numerous things showing it
Cubic x-folds definitely do exist in mathematics. With a Klein cubic threefold, or Klein cube, being one of those types. But as I said, the actual existence of them in the real world isn't as important as their explanation in verse, it merely is supporting evidence due to what they are.
No, its a very bad argument. The argument is "this isnt said in game too therefore its unusable" this idea renders databooks completely redundant and pointless then, as the entire point of a data book is to explain things which aren't fully explained outside of them
I'm going to ignore the "not physical dimensions therefore fake" thing because this was addressed above already and you seem to have just ignored it, so moving on, no it doesn't need to be infinite sized if its established as valid superiority or whatever, Ultima has said this as well when asked.
Indeed, and in this case, as I've posted it doesn't contradict the games, the Mooncell being infinite or being able to have infinite spaces in it is consistent within the series, with even Rani herself (who is being used to say its finite) saying as much, not just that one statement saying there's infinite distance.
That's in the settings section of BB's servant matrix, this is the in game version of the databook explanation I quoted before
it's simply a more fleshed out explanation of something already stated in game. The in game version also stops the idea that 404 light years is actually finite, as otherwise it wouldn't be impossible to hack no matter how much time was taken, with BB needing infinite time, it'd be very much finite, 404 years at the speed of light to be exact.
I understand that your argument is that other evidence contradicts the scan, but that does not mean the scan doesn't mean what it clearly means. The value of the various pieces of evidence for and against an infinite moon cell can be discussed later on, but the fact remains that the scan concretely defines the Moon Cell as finite. There are other scans which do the same.
No, it is not. The analogy used does not "show" that it is higher spatial dimensions, and it is in-fact directly shown not to be the case through a variety of canonical information about the Moon Cell. You can argue that spatiality is the best interpretation if you wish, but I think that's a pretty poor argument that isn't supported by what Rin actually said or what we know about the Moon Cell. Even BB said so:
No, I have not ignored any of those things, rather, your arguments for those opinions have been unconvincing and what Rin actually said paints a different story. Your interpretation is not a dogmatic truth, so it would be best if you did not repeat it at me as one over and over again each time I state my disagreement.
No, the statement is a general explanation for the Observed Universe. It is literally a response to the question "What is the observed universe." Rin's explanation primarily revolves around the difference in how time is perceived in an observed universe and a recorded universe. The Moon Cell is explicitly described as a "concurrent world simulator" and is a Recorded Universe, and that when BB became the Moon Cell she was able to freely view past and future simultaneously (which is obvious given that she became the computer simulating the worlds). It is absolutely not the case that the statement was a "general explanation of how higher dimensional things view stuff" and certainly isn't the case that the "higher dimensional perspective" is spatial, given how much that contradicts everything else that has been said about the Moon Cell, BB, and that such an approach depends entirely upon your opinion that the analogy used should be taken literally, which is just an opinion and nothing more.
This is not my only argument there it's just one. My argument as a whole though is that the scan doesn't mean what you're interpreting it as. The entire point of it is to give a reason why the labyrinth has to follow a set shape and size or whatever, but we see in that same stage that the area around 11th floor itself doesn't follow those rules, only the actual floor of the labyrinth, with the rest having no boundaries or whatever.
Even if you say it isnt infinite or whatever, this contradicts what Rani says about the actual floor, that it must be a set shape with a set entrance and exit, something with no walls is not a set shape. Even saying its not infinite size, this shows that her statement is purely applying to the labyrinth, not every part of the Mooncell.
"Even a three dimensional object is flat, time within the 'book' is interchangeable" if I recall correct, the 3 dimensions below time are spatial, and those 3 dimensions including time are seen as a flat scroll or the stuff written on the pages of a book, as said here and in FSF, where Zelretch reads through timelines, deciding which are good or bad and changing stuff
Or Case Files, where Zepia calculates the world as scripts because of a transcendent, and higher dimensional perspective
BB saying its made of light doesnt mean anything? I've explained this with the whole spiritron thing already. This seems to be trying to go for "the Mooncell just records it this way and that's what BB got" which again, ignores the core being said to be higher d as the explanation for this, and more importantly, the 29 sentences before BB was even mentioned, showing that Rin was not explaining BB's stuff, but rather general higher dimensions and then applying it to BB at the end, so this argument doesn't work.
This isn't a matter of interpretation, the core being higher d is directly said, you know this. Beyond that I have literally counted the number of sentences between Rin starting and mentioning BB, if the subject of it was how things worked for BB, she'd have been mentioned before she got 29 sentences in. This isn't an interpretation thing, this is just reading the actual scene and seeing "wow, she's not talking about BB specifically"
It doesn't contradict anything said about the Mooncell and BB though, that's the issue, besides your idea that "it's light and not physical gg".
I think it's quite telling that you have to repeatedly strawman my argument in order to forward your position.
It's the opposite, you're attempting to reinforce your position by stating it as fact when it clearly isn't. There's insufficient evidence to suggest the wall statement refers to higher spatial dimensions. The Rin rant concretely cannot refer to higher spatial dimensions, and BB's superiority over the timelines is definitively not a result of higher spatial dimensionality.
Well, as note, there's no evidence in your view. Ultima, Crimson, myself and a thread mod all have said that there were.
A higher dimensional perspective in of itself wouldn't, but if your 4th dimension views the third dimension as flat and time as a book then that space would be qualitatively superior. They're ultimately being scaled to the entire 8th dimensional realm by being over seven other dimensions, not just having 8 dimensional axis.
Paul counterclaim regarding those were sufficientlyrics convincing to me. Like with Tiamat the Moon Cell seems like a larger space that's located within a smaller space.
Well it's not any other justifications, I just disagree that they're current justifications aren't useable. From my reading I think they fit enough requirements for a standard higher dimensional space. The only thing I can see being at odds is them scaling to 8-D rather than 7-D.
I'm saying the following:
I think you're inverting the burden of proof here with regard to these eight dimensions.
Despite the lack of sufficient evidence described above (I mean really, we're granting several higher infinities based on an extremely specious set of information), there actually is strong evidence against them being spatial. The first and most obvious which is the nature of the Moon Cell: It isn't physical, which means it isn't spatial.
This is incorrect, only 2D can be viewed as flat since it has only 2 Dimensions (length and breadth with no height), and since we has 3D view 2D as flat it became a misconception to equate it to higher dimensions than 3D when viewing 3D. But when a 4D still views 3D, they will still see the height axis hence we cannot be flat to higher Dimensional beings.
In no way is them moving up higher spatial dimensions in this case, the term "the density of space increases" is probably used to refer to how harder it is to move up, The higher dimensions are not denser than lower dimensions, all they have is an extra axis. A 3D being will move in a 4D and above space just fine without any hindrance, as we cannot even perceive this extra axis to begin with.
The statement which I have a great deal of problem with since the cast themselves are 3-D so BB is supposed to also view them as flat according to the quotes but somehow she does not view them as flat.
It is like it, it is not exactly it. Used to refer to BB gaining the perspective of the mooncell that records all the things that has happened and all possibilities.
Lest I forget, they are going through this layers one by one, and getting stopped and it getting harder for them to advance, if they were 8D, they should not be stopped by things they view as flat to begin with. And since we know the cast are 3D, they are supposed to be flat in contrast to this space, so how they broke through the layers is another hole.
That doesn't seem to be the point being made. As for the 2D thing. It isn't that we view 2D as flat. It literally is flat. So idk why you're bringing 2D here. The whole point is that the "flat" thing is just saying that Higher dimensions view lower dimensions akin to a flat scroll. To connect this to another work with a similar property, Shinza Bansho uses a R>F analogy in a similar manner saying that higher dimensions view lower ones as if they were a painting.
we view 2-D as flat cause 2-D is flat, that was the point of that statement, I really do not see any point in this post aside a needless nitpicking
And which part of my posts says there are no other form to qualify for higher dimensions? honestly your posts has no point here. This is a fate thread and the reasons for fate qualitative superiority is spatial dimensions i.e. extra axis between each higher dimensions, so I really do not understand what you are saying here.
You're reading to deep into the comparison here. This a common and universal way to explain higher dimens perspectives in a way most people understand.
Agree, besides the fact that there are the visual examples showing how this perspective makes them see timelines as pages of a book and manipulate them as such.
This scan is also interesting because the character itself say how she is just a speck of dust in the higher dimension to which she ascended despite her omnipotence in the lower dimension.
Can I ask what convinced you of the 8 dimensions being qualitatively superior spatial dimensions? I feel that the counter evidence proposed in the latter half of this comment is very important, as largely the premise through which Avalon and the Moon Cell are being ascribed several higher infinities is through the assumption that they are spatial and that the Rin scan speaks to how higher dimensions are treated as qualitatively superior.
I feel as if others can explain better than I can, but I was asked offsite and I saw more elaborate explanations. But it sounds more like the "Lower Dimensional Universes" are perceived as digital data files stored on a computer. I try to avoid using examples that might be considered whataboutisms, but it's similar to how Bravely characters got Low 1-C via perceiving an entire 2-A sized multiverse as a saved data file stored on a game cartridge, and that multiple of those can be saved on a single cartridge and that the villain was gonna destroy the multiverse but "Overpowering the player, taking their 3DS system, and deleting the save file" before the party also joined in to save the player.
Well, let me clarify. Within the Moon Cell that's not just perception, the timelines literally are data. However, this isn't something that applies to the universe outside the Moon Cell. The Moon Cell is a concurrent world simulator that has been recording the events of Earth since ancient times, and it can predict the future due to being an advanced supercomputer, and it's always calculating many different timelines. Fate/EXTRA and CCC take place in these digital timelines, but the worlds themselves aren't lower dimensional, they're just data and numbers stored in light.
For the time being I am tabling the discussion on the nature of the Moon Cell's timelines (I don't think they should be treated as proper universes, as they are explicitly stated to be non-physical worlds made of data), but even if we grant BB qualitative superiority over them, it's important to recognize why that is the case. It isn't because she has a higher spatial dimension (she has no spatial dimensions at all, neither do the worlds of the Moon Cell), but because she became the Moon Cell and is thus literally controlling the computer simulating these timelines.
Well, no two ways about it, this is just untrue. There's nothing indicating that in the verse at all. But if you look at the counter-evidence, souls are also explicitly said to be higher dimensional and transcend time, and are used in the Moon Cell and used in computers, but despite this, they aren't a higher infinity. Souls can be harvested for magic energy by normal 6-B servants. Souls are also explicitly not physical, so they do not have spatial dimensions. So it's clear that "higher dimensional" in the verse doesn't really mean higher spatiality, and they aren't higher infinities. The only reason BB has superiority over the Moon Cell is due to taking over the computer that runs it. There's no computer above her, or a ladder hierarchy of computers, each with a higher level of superiority. There's just one Moon Cell, made of 3-D photonic crystals and light information, with digital timelines modeled after observations made of Earth that BB controls due to taking over the computer.
That's not a strawman, you're asserting "its not higher d because BB has it because of being the Mooncell" but the reason the Mooncell has it is because it is also referred to as higher d. As noted as well, you just keep saying its supported by nothing and contradicted by everything and just asserting that, with nothing behind it
Another thing where you read a response and just sorta go "no that can't be true there's so much evidence it isn't, and there's no evidence it is"
I can't reciprocate because you haven't ever given anything. You just keep asserting something is not true despite the text, and then going "well there's a bunch of evidence it isn't" and that's your entire point, there's nothing to be polite to
No he's not really, he's saying there's proof that the dimensions count, thus its on you to prove that the proof is wrong and they don't count, not on everyone else to continue to try and make you see something you've very clearly refused to accept already.
You started out so strong, but then you instantly lost it. You keep trying to go "They describe it this way but only because that's how the Mooncell sees it", any amount of reading comprehension will allow you to realize that's concretely, not the case. Rin's monologue is not about how the Mooncell sees stuff, otherwise she wouldn't go "this is a higher dimensional perspective, and here's how that works", she'd just simply go "the Mooncell can see things this way because of muh data" like you're implying and that would be the entire monologue, as its written, its very clearly a general terms thing, reinforced by other showings of higher dimensional perspectives outside of the Mooncell. The whole seeing the world as a book and being able to see all of time as one and unimportant isn't a Mooncell thing, or a Universe of Records thing, its written as a higher dimensions thing, this explanation is then applied to the Universe of Records and to BB.
So in essence your argument is currently:
They then note that there's no ai installed to avoid what the mats have mentioned
We see what this means in the case of Zelretch in interview statements as I've mentioned, its literally true, if someone with a higher dimensional perspective is to view things, as an observer it will make what it wants true, and erase the rest.
The fact its in the same game one chapter apart????????
This is incorrect as I've addressed above, she's giving the explanation for a higher dimension and then applying it to the Universe of Record, furthermore, the reason we have to take it literally is the other showings like Zelretch, Zepia's script statement, the Mooncell core clearly viewing our world like that as well, with all of time at once and inconsequential, fun fact by the way, that's why its able to summon heroes from any point in time like the Throne can, because its already recorded all of the past and future, and as Rani said, already knows how mankind will end, etc
Its her control over the computer (her) that allows her to influence the Moon Cell (her) in order to affect stuff in the outside because she (the explicitly higher dimensional Mooncell) has already seen the future of the outside world, so as a highly logical AI she'd take steps to just get rid of it early, and that's why Rani is worried? Interesting, sounds to me like its in fact, her being higher d and viewing time as one that allows such things
?????????
Addressed with the multiple comments about spiritrons, and how the worlds are equal to if not more real than the outside world, and how the Mooncell can affect the outside equally as well, so moving on
Incorrect these crystals can not be found and mined on Earth, that's why nothing on Earth has ever come close to the Mooncell, the Mooncell is made of ultra high purity photonic crystal which predates the Earth as a whole (Mooncell was built before Earth existed), the likes of which can not be reproduced by man. Rin's explanation has been talked about to death, its very clear with its wording, and you're sticking to the "but its just light I swear" thing again, which has been addressed, so moving on
I see you've used this translation again
Which was already said to be wrong, its simply saying that the soul is the spiritual life not the physical body
Which is a very different statement, this one simply saying that the soul is the spiritual life as opposed to the physical body of a person, and then the mind is the mental life, as mentioned in CCC and Extella, there is a physical life and consciousness (the body) a spiritual life and consciousness (the soul) and the mental (the mind), with the soul containing the mind and blah blah blah. Its not that the soul is something which can never affect anything physical or whatever like you're trying to imply.
Literally nothing said here is true. Your argument is "souls can't be higher infinities because there exists specialized methods to interact with them" which isn't a defeater to higher d stuff at all, this is a complete non argument and an argument from incredulity to go "See, how could someone possibly interact with this if this was true, it must be false."
No we don't have that at all kek. You've just sorta determined they aren't higher spatial dimensions or infinities, by going "well some people can interact with some of it therefore fake" and neglecting all context possible. Hell, the argument that they can be interacted with on the same level as normal magicians and servants is explicitly super false with them noting that humans can only even possibly summon servants, and even then they need something on the level of power as the Grail's hax to do so
Summoning only weak emanations, with other stuff noting even Magicians can't control heroic spirits
We aren't, that's the issue, the glaring issue you're simply powering over to assert your idea that everything else is fake therefore BB's stuff is too. And repeating the same addressed arguments about "its not being higher d its just the computer ignore everything else"
There's no way a cosmology page will be made off of what's here, there's so much more that would have to be explained its absurd. I've been working on one that's currently 17 pages long in google docs, which should be telling of how much stuff there is to explain beyond just "do we think dimensions count? do we think there's infinite universes?"
I've addressed all of these points already so I won't address it further, but I do have to say, going from saying on discord "If it seems reasonable then staff should agree, no one has to try and convince me" to ignoring people explaining things on discord to you because they can't be on the thread as bluenames, thread banning Regidan twice after he was given permission to argue as one of the few knowledgeable members, and constantly quoting every staff who disagrees and going "pls read my comment everything is wrong guys", and then attempting to keep the thread going because you in specific are unconvinced as to the evidence, is a bad look
No, it isn't. The "higher dimensional perspective" is a description of the Moon Cell's ability to view time simultaneously, as a recorded universe, but BB's control over the worlds of the Moon Cell has nothing to do with that. You don't need to have an additional dimension in order to view past and present simultaneously if "past and present" are numbers stored in a computer you control. We also know, definitively, that the "higher dimensional perspective" has nothing to do with spatiality, as this world is strictly non-physical.
This is inaccurate. The Moon Cell cannot view past and present of the Observed Universe simultaneously, not really. It has records of the past and can accurately predict the future, so in practice it can, but that isn't due to it having a "higher dimensional perspective" over the Observed Universe. Rin's entire explanation is to delineate the OU and the RU of the Moon Cell, which follow different physical laws. The Moon Cell cannot violate that, and it's influence over the real universe is quite limited as shown with the explanation of the Holy Grail wish. It could take up to 10 years for the Moon Cell to change society in a way that grants your wish, or to influence humanity in such a way that they could create a virtual experience for it. This directly disproves such a claim.
You're mistaken, or perhaps you're just misunderstanding my point. The photonic crystal in the Moon Cell can't be reproduced by man because it is absolutely massive, but the basic material of photonic crystals can be found on earth. My point was that the photonic crystals that constitute the Moon Cell are not 4-D or 8-D objects, they are normal crystals used in the vein of fiber optic cables, storing light as information.
This appears to be another case of misunderstanding my point.
No, that's not my argument. I'm not denying that they are higher dimensional, I am contesting your interpretation of what that means. Namely that it refers to an additional geometric dimension and that it confers a higher infinity. In the case of souls, I have proven this to be false. For heroic spirits likewise, this can also be proven false. Heroic spirits and the Throne do not have spatial dimensions, they are a spiritual existence independent of the axis of time, so we know definitively that this is not referring to geometric dimensions. Moreover, we know that they are not a higher infinity either. Even though they are much more powerful than their servant versions and earth magicians, their level of power is simply not that high.
No, that's not the case. They aren't higher spatial dimensions because they are explicitly described as non-physical entities in over a dozen instances, so imposing a physical concept like spatiality on them for the sake of justifying these higher infinities would be directly contrary to what is established in the verse. I have proven they are not higher infinities due to the level of power they display in the verse, particularly for souls.
Yeah, that's a completely inaccurate way of describing my argument. I think it's more the reverse, in order to think of BB as having higher spatial dimensions, you have to ignore pretty much all of the information we are given about the Moon Cell.
There's more discussion to be had, and in the case that it's rejected, nothing changes, so there's no reason not to continue as long as people are interested in continuing to discuss it.
Again, The thread as a whole is not a simple binary yes/no. It's an evaluation of the various scans and statements. We are sifting through and formally establishing what material meets the requirements of our Qualitative Superiority Standards.
Just because Kirby fans do not know how to be concise doesn't mean we need to be too, not to mention that this entire thread is going over stuff already discussed in other threads.
I informed the other staff upon their invitation that their purpose of coming was to validate and formalize current ratings and reasonings. The discussion rule doesn't ban discussion. It was made to prevent copy and paste/low-effort threads. Having an honest discussion and cross-examining the current reasonings is allowed. According to the OP, other staff saw his thread as not copy and paste/low-effort.
If I may comment here, I don't even think it's just a tiering system thing, this is relevant to the in-verse mechanics of Nasuverse, so wouldn't it be appropriate to also let more knowledgeable members of Nasuverse's scaling contribute as well?
They've been invited to the thread but I believe they have been busy or perhaps not interested. @Executor_N0 @DontTalkDT
We sometimes do staff discussions for specific verses when deemed appropriate, and given how incredibly dense this thread has become even with strictly limited participation, I think its clear that allowing it to be a free for all would be very very ill advised. Having 6 people saying the same thing isn't better than having 1 person say it.
