I think it's quite telling that you have to repeatedly strawman my argument in order to forward your position.
I never denied jt being referred to as having a higher dimensional perspective. The interpretation of this phrase -- that it denotes an additional spatial dimension -- is supported by next to no evidence and contradicted by a large body of evidence. In addition to the fact that this higher dimensional perspective does not grant qualitative superiority and has no connection to the wall mentioned by BB.
That's not a strawman, you're asserting "its not higher d because BB has it because of being the Mooncell" but the reason the Mooncell has it is because it is also referred to as higher d. As noted as well, you just keep saying its supported by nothing and contradicted by everything and just asserting that, with nothing behind it
It's the opposite, you're attempting to reinforce your position by stating it as fact when it clearly isn't. There's insufficient evidence to suggest the wall statement refers to higher spatial dimensions. The Rin rant concretely cannot refer to higher spatial dimensions, and BB's superiority over the timelines is definitively not a result of higher spatial dimensionality.
Another thing where you read a response and just sorta go "no that can't be true there's so much evidence it isn't, and there's no evidence it is"
I've been polite to your viewpoint as a matter of courtesy, but since you have routinely refused to reciprocate that I see no point in it. The facts are very clear, there is no evidentiary basis for these levels of superiority. It's a house of cards based on extremely generous interpretations of one off statements and a willful blind eye towards all the reasons it can't work. It's just that simple, you aren't right here at all.
I can't reciprocate because you haven't ever given anything. You just keep asserting something is not true despite the text, and then going "well there's a bunch of evidence it isn't" and that's your entire point, there's nothing to be polite to
I think you're inverting the burden of proof here with regard to these eight dimensions.
No he's not really, he's saying there's proof that the dimensions count, thus its on you to prove that the proof is wrong and they don't count, not on everyone else to continue to try and make you see something you've very clearly refused to accept already.
We have two pieces of information. The first and simplest is the scan from BB where the wall guarding the Moon Cell Core is described as "cutting through eight dimensions." The second, and more complicated, is Rin's monologue. She is asked about the concept of the Observed Universe, and explains the difference between it and the Recorded Universe, how time passes linearly and irreversibly in the OU but in the RU, past present and future exist at the same time. This is referred to as a higher dimensional perspective. The ability to view time non-linearly, to flip back and forth.
She uses an analogy of a three-dimensional world as a book that you come outside of and then you can view past and present simultaneously, because the Moon Cell follows the laws of a Recorded Universe, it's a concurrent world simulator. This is crucial. Ask yourself why BB can view the past and present of the Moon Cell simultaneously. Is it because she is a four dimensional or eight dimensional being? No, it is because she became the computer that is processing the timelines of the moon cell as data.
You started out so strong, but then you instantly lost it. You keep trying to go "They describe it this way but only because that's how the Mooncell sees it", any amount of reading comprehension will allow you to realize that's concretely, not the case. Rin's monologue is not about how the Mooncell sees stuff, otherwise she wouldn't go "this is a higher dimensional perspective, and here's how that works", she'd just simply go "the Mooncell can see things this way because of muh data" like you're implying and that would be the entire monologue, as its written, its very clearly a general terms thing, reinforced by other showings of higher dimensional perspectives outside of the Mooncell. The whole seeing the world as a book and being able to see all of time as one and unimportant isn't a Mooncell thing, or a Universe of Records thing, its written as a higher dimensions thing, this explanation is then applied to the Universe of Records and to BB.
Also you've again resorted to "she's not higher d, she's just the Mooncell which sees things this way" but that argument is fundamentally flawed because the Mooncell is said to see things that way because its higher d as well
Rani :: …Indeed. We can conjecture that it is in order to prevent them from deviating from their function as observational mechanisms, but…In truth, it may have been to prevent cases like the present one from occurring. The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence.
So in essence your argument is currently:
"BB isn't higher d, this monologue was just talking about how the Mooncell sees things" (wrong) and "BB just has that because she became the Mooncell, which sees things that way, so she's not higher d" (ignores the Mooncell being higher d in the first place to say BB isn't)
Of note, the Mooncell doesn't just have this view over its own timelines, as I've posted before in this thread, it has them over the world outside too, its higher dimensional view over reality isn't limited to stuff its simulated, with Rani noting that it already knows how mankind will end and thus if an AI was present it would simply erase the mankind as its destruction is already inevitable
The Moon Cell Core knows how the human race will end. But there is no valuation of any kind in that result. The Moon Cell has within it no basis to judge the options, how to create a better future — to judge between good and evil, you could say. This is the management of the Earth was left to humanity. Or, why a third party overlooked it and did not intervene. But, if an AI with a clear basis for judgment were inserted, the Moon Cell would select the best future according to a single intelligence. — which is to say, the erasure of mankind. If they are to be ultimately destroyed, it is because now they must be destroyed. I think that as a decision to prevent waste of resources, it is highly rational.
They then note that there's no ai installed to avoid what the mats have mentioned
The observer must not have a mind.
For the observer to have a mind would result in the meaning of things being decided by the observer.
Thus, it kept to maintaining its absolute objectivity as an eye, doing so while always dismantling the emerging semblances of sapience that it had incorporated to administrate its functions.
Thus, this computer has no conception of good and evil, no desire for the future, not even an outcome.
We see what this means in the case of Zelretch in interview statements as I've mentioned, its literally true, if someone with a higher dimensional perspective is to view things, as an observer it will make what it wants true, and erase the rest.
So the Mooncell, which is higher dimensional, has had to nerf itself in order to not simply erase the World because of observing it, showing its higher dimensional view extends over the outside too, meaning any possible argument of "the core isn't higher d it just views its own data" is incorrect
-----------------------------------------
So with regard to BB's statement about the wall that cuts through eight dimensions, what evidence do we have to connect it to Rin's monologue in the first place and assume that it's eight spatial dimensions?
The fact its in the same game one chapter apart????????
The fact that that's the explanation for dimensions in the verse?????
There's grasping at straws, and then there's whatever you're doing here by trying to imply Rin's explanation about dimensions doesn't apply to dimensions as mentioned in the verse, especially in the same game, and instead it means layers or whatever, from a different game, which don't exist in this one
What reason do we have to take Rin's metaphor for viewing time differently literally in terms of spatiality anyways? The only concept of a "higher dimension" we've been given is the concept of a recorded universe where time exists simultaneously.
This is incorrect as I've addressed above, she's giving the explanation for a higher dimension and then applying it to the Universe of Record, furthermore, the reason we have to take it literally is the other showings like Zelretch, Zepia's script statement, the Mooncell core clearly viewing our world like that as well, with all of time at once and inconsequential, fun fact by the way, that's why its able to summon heroes from any point in time like the Throne can, because its already recorded all of the past and future, and as Rani said, already knows how mankind will end, etc
This isn't what grants BB control over these timelines, it is her control over the computer that allows her to influence the Moon Cell.
Its her control over the computer (her) that allows her to influence the Moon Cell (her) in order to affect stuff in the outside because she (the explicitly higher dimensional Mooncell) has already seen the future of the outside world, so as a highly logical AI she'd take steps to just get rid of it early, and that's why Rani is worried? Interesting, sounds to me like its in fact, her being higher d and viewing time as one that allows such things
Her perception is a different matter. There's no evidence that this is something that can be stacked multiple times, and there is no evidence of such a hierarchy in the verse (there aren't 5D, 6D, 7D beings in a hierarchy, it's just a random jump to eight dimensions based on this single statement).
?????????
"Okay guys here is how dimensions work in this work, and here's a number for the amount of dimensions present here"
"Okay now repeat the explanation four more times or it doesn't count, merely counts one single time and that's it"
This is your argument dumbed down. You're of course going to say this is a strawman but I hope you can actually see how dumb that is
Despite the lack of sufficient evidence described above (I mean really, we're granting several higher infinities based on an extremely specious set of information), there actually is strong evidence against them being spatial. The first and most obvious which is the nature of the Moon Cell: It isn't physical, which means it isn't spatial.
There is a wealth of information both in the game and in the various guidebooks that the Moon Cell cannot be accessed physically, there aren't any spatial dimensions in these worlds, they are directly stated to be made of numbers and photons.
Addressed with the multiple comments about spiritrons, and how the worlds are equal to if not more real than the outside world, and how the Mooncell can affect the outside equally as well, so moving on
As you can see, we actually can quite easily prove that the dimensions of the Moon Cell aren't geometric. Everything that occurs within Extra and CCC is data stored in photonic crystals. These crystals aren't 8-D, they can be found and mined on Earth. Rin's talk of a three-dimensional book is given in a metaphor used to explain a perspective that sees time simultaneously, not a higher spatial dimension, not a higher infinity.
Incorrect these crystals can not be found and mined on Earth, that's why nothing on Earth has ever come close to the Mooncell, the Mooncell is made of ultra high purity photonic crystal which predates the Earth as a whole (Mooncell was built before Earth existed), the likes of which can not be reproduced by man. Rin's explanation has been talked about to death, its very clear with its wording, and you're sticking to the "but its just light I swear" thing again, which has been
addressed, so moving on
This can be proven further with other instances in the verse where "higher dimensional" is used in a way that explicit refers to neither higher spatiality nor higher infinites. For instance, the Soul, a non-physical thing from a higher dimension:
Souls, as well as Heroic Spirits, are explicitly stated to be higher dimensional, non-physical, and are said to transcend time. Using this same logic, we would be forced to conclude that human souls are a higher infinity to the entire physical world, and that so are Heroic Spirits. Problem is, we literally know this isn't the case.
I see you've used this translation again
A soul resides in all life forms that are intelligent. It is spiritual life that is not part of any physical phenomenon.
Which was already said to be wrong, its simply saying that the soul is the spiritual life not the physical body
"知性持つ生命ひとつひとつに宿る、肉体的ではなく精神的な命。" Translating to something more along the lines of
Residing within every living being with intelligence, is a life that is not physical, but spiritual
Which is a very different statement, this one simply saying that the soul is the spiritual life as opposed to the physical body of a person, and then the mind is the mental life, as mentioned in CCC and Extella, there is a physical life and consciousness (the body) a spiritual life and consciousness (the soul) and the mental (the mind), with the soul containing the mind and blah blah blah. Its not that the soul is something which can never affect anything physical or whatever like you're trying to imply.
Moving on from the tl thing though
Souls in particular, there are spells through which souls can be captured, destroyed, forcefully separated from one's body, materialized, used in computers, quantified as data, created, et cetera.
Heroic Spirits literally exist in a realm that views the timeline of Earth in the same manner as the Moon Cell is able to see the timelines that it calculates. They explicitly are said to transcend time and to be a spiritual phenomenon of a higher order, but we know definitively that the world they are in isn't higher spatial, it's also just information, and it isn't a higher infinity.
Literally nothing said here is true. Your argument is "souls can't be higher infinities because there exists specialized methods to interact with them" which isn't a defeater to higher d stuff at all, this is a complete non argument and an argument from incredulity to go "See, how could someone possibly interact with this if this was true, it must be false."
Beyond that, as you've posted stuff about Heaven's Feel, I'm sure you know a few of the other lines about it, such as it being called an invincible command structure in our world because of being a, as Zouken put it, existence of a higher order. You also should know that within our world, a soul that's actually made manifest by the third sorcery and given form through that has infinite power, explicitly.
That's unimportant though I suppose, simply having infinite power and being invincible in our world as an existence of higher order doesn't mean anything of course. Moving on back to your argument about people quantifying or creating them. No, people are not able to create actual souls, the closest are the artifical souls given to Hommunculi using pseudo spiritrons but those only exist to give them magic circuits, as for quantifying it, that is arguably sorta the case in Extra sure, the best minds in existence over thousands of years have managed to find out where the soul is, and project it into the Mooncell, however you've missed that Roa being able to quantify his own soul was such an absurd feat that immortals on the scale of thousands of years consider it absurd. Its not a feat that's casual at all, or normal, to be able to even slightly quantify the soul is something which the entire world seeks, its the jurisdiction of True Magic, you're acting like everyone can do it but that's not the case.
People destroying them with very special things that are noted to be special when used is also like, okay??? Like okay sure, I can believe that the Seventh Holy Scripture, an item specifically made to affect souls, can affect them, that doesn't suddenly mean everything else said about them is incorrect.
You also say that Heroic Spirits aren't higher d because they're just able to view the timeline of Earth the way the Mooncell views timelines it calculates (isn't true btw as said above the Mooncell views the outside like that too), and that it isn't spatial its just info. But this is wrong, you see we almost never actually see Heroic Spirits in action, as the mat you posted said, they simply can not be summoned, this includes by True Magicians, they are too powerful to be called on and controlled by anyone in our world. However note I say almost never, because this addresses your argument of "its just info, its fake", you see, Heroic Spirit Jeanne who is in the Throne of Heroes eventually makes her way to the reverse side of the World, summoning herself there
To recap, we have three things that are called higher dimensional, all of them transcend time, all of them are explicitly non-physical, and two of them are definitively not higher spatial dimensions nor are they a higher infinity, they can be interacted with on the same level as normal magicians and servants from Fate.
No we don't have that at all kek. You've just sorta determined they aren't higher spatial dimensions or infinities, by going "well some people can interact with some of it therefore fake" and neglecting all context possible. Hell, the argument that they can be interacted with on the same level as normal magicians and servants is explicitly super false with them noting that humans can only even possibly summon servants, and even then they need something on the level of power as the Grail's hax to do so
The ones summoned by humans are Servants. However, Heroic Spirits cannot be controlled by humans, and to summon them, the Holy Grail or something with power of that sort must be used.
The Servant system of Fuyuki summons Heroic Spirits with the power of the Greater Grail. Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.
Summoning only weak emanations, with other stuff noting even Magicians can't control heroic spirits
So why on earth would we fly in the face of everything we know about the franchise and use a single vague statement about a wall in the Moon Cell to highball the verse four levels of infinity it clearly doesn't actually have? BB's transcendence over the Moon Cell's worlds has nothing to do with her higher dimensional perspective. It's due to becoming the computer that controls the data.
We aren't, that's the issue, the glaring issue you're simply powering over to assert your idea that everything else is fake therefore BB's stuff is too. And repeating the same addressed arguments about "its not being higher d its just the computer ignore everything else"
To reiterate the purpose of this discussion, it is to sift through and formally establish what material meets the requirements of our Qualitative Superiority Standards. The thread as a whole is not a simple binary yes/no. It's an evaluation of the various scans and statements of which we're only on the second page. The final product of this evaluation is a cosmology page showing all the reasonings the staff can agree on.
There's no way a cosmology page will be made off of what's here, there's so much more that would have to be explained its absurd. I've been working on one that's currently 17 pages long in google docs, which should be telling of how much stuff there is to explain beyond just "do we think dimensions count? do we think there's infinite universes?"
Can I ask what convinced you of the 8 dimensions being qualitatively superior spatial dimensions? I feel that the counter evidence proposed in the latter half of
this comment is very important, as largely the premise through which Avalon and the Moon Cell are being ascribed several higher infinities is through the assumption that they are spatial and that the Rin scan speaks to how higher dimensions are treated as qualitatively superior.
Setting aside the fact that I think the evidence for such assumptions are insufficient, I think particularly the latter point is contradicted heavily by the many statements of souls and heroic spirits being higher dimensional and transcend time, and their concrete interactions within the verse that prove they are not a higher infinity.
With that in mind, it seems very clear to me that Rin's rant is not best interpreted as "higher dimensions are qualitatively superior" as BB's superiority over the timelines of the Moon Cell is by controlling the computer, not gaining an additional dimension (or several).
I think it'd be a real shame if we left a verse with 3 to 5 levels of higher infinity undeservedly. I'd be appreciative if you take the time to look over my linked comment, as IMO this is one of the more egregious instances of undeserved higher infinities.
I've addressed all of these points already so I won't address it further, but I do have to say, going from saying on discord "If it seems reasonable then staff should agree, no one has to try and convince me" to ignoring people explaining things on discord to you because they can't be on the thread as bluenames, thread banning Regidan twice after he was given permission to argue as one of the few knowledgeable members, and constantly quoting every staff who disagrees and going "pls read my comment everything is wrong guys", and then attempting to keep the thread going because you in specific are unconvinced as to the evidence, is a bad look
