PrinceofPein
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Recording possibilities of earth or the solar system, and not timelines, since that makes it inflatedThe moon cell records different timelines and possibilities,
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Recording possibilities of earth or the solar system, and not timelines, since that makes it inflatedThe moon cell records different timelines and possibilities,
I'm here just to correct some thing in this comment.On this part, I will contend that the scan very directly says that the Mooncell is a device for observing earth, and says that the "parallel worlds" are the possibilities of earth. I haven't seen the evidence that suggests that possibilities are true timelines, but even if they were, it's very clear that the possibilities only entail Earth, not the universe.
I can't speak to the accuracy of the translation, but the progression seems very logical. If the Moon Cell is directly described as an Earth-observation device, recording the possibilities of Earth, and these possibilities are the parallel worlds, then they definitely aren't universes.
Regarding this, I haven't seen the evidence detailing that it contains an infinite amount, but there seems to be evidence against that notion in scans from Fate/Extella. For instance:
And this set of scans, which read:
So it seems fairly concrete to me, assuming that these translations are accurate, that the Moon Cell very definitively contains Earths, not Universes, and that the number of timelines is concretely finite, as is the amount of energy in the universe.
Correct something here too, it's not the barrier that is 8D. What the barrier does is cutting through 8 dimensions to protect the core from external threat. ( And it's not layer since it doesn't even exist 8 layers but 7 in moon cell and the kanji used for layers and the kanji used for dimmension is not the same but paul already showed this)..
I mean, if the only evidence is the Moon Cell barriers being 8D for 1-C I don't know if that's a legitimate 1-C justification. Not because it is or isn't Tier 1, but due to the size of the object. It had to be comparable to a universe in scope to get a Tier 1 rating afaik.
While Firestorm got the amount of staff wrong, ultimately speaking for Tier 1 revisions its staff input that matters. So they aren't wrong about that.
Because an area refers to a two-dimensional surface or region, such as a flat piece of land, then it does not have depth. It only has length and width.Again, how does an area having depth debunk their point?
Then I should have misunderstood, tho is there any visual feat for 8 dimension one because I am iffy that we take those statements at face value as we no longer do dimensional scalingBcz it's tell area? Area 36, first floor. And nobody tell that the infinite chimerie is a mathematical dimmension. It's just here to show that moon cell size is still infinite.
Visual feat? The feat is BB describing what she see and about to do (passing through the barrier), i could send you the scan when she tell it. But we don't see the barrier. Tho if it's can help, the core of moon cell is itself declared as being higher dimmensionalBecause an area refers to a two-dimensional surface or region, such as a flat piece of land, then it does not have depth. It only has length and width.
(seems the person below clarify it, you can ignore it)
Then I should have misunderstood, tho is there any visual feat for 8 dimension one because I am iffy that we take those statements at face value as we no longer do dimensional scaling
Alternate Translation:So, I will take there is absolutely no visual feat. Noted (wanted to make sure)
And do you mean the one with higher dimensional perspective? Because I differ to take as an evidence for straight-out 8 dimensions.
I'm aware that everyone who is participating got permission. If they hadn't I would've just removed them.I got authorized by Crimson, you can ask him
Well my participation here is mostly because i needed to show you that what you commented was not what is show in the verse. You didn't know these feat for sure, and so i needed to show them.I'm aware that everyone who is participating got permission. If they hadn't I would've just removed them.
Myself, Ultima, and Ant have already talked about changing the way we grant authorization for staff discussion threads and plan to have a wider discussion about it later on, but I think this thread is a good example of how the current system of "anyone who gets permission from any staff member at all can treat the thread like a regular CRT" is antithetical to the concept of a staff discussion and very quickly turns it into a hard-to-follow avalanche of circular arguing
In that case… Here’s the scan.the whole counter argument is that the moon cell is not infinite, so that would be helpful
I'll go through the earlier and new posts and clean up so we stick with just the scans, limited editorialism.@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808
Is there something we can do to make participation stricter? About half the page is shotgun-blast back and forth between non-staff which defeats the purpose of having a staff discussion IMO.
The subject I think is pretty important and if it gets bogged down by the kind of un-conclusive banter above its just going to go the way of the other threads where no one really wants to touch it due to how much of a mess it has become. I don't want to do it on my own, but I'd like to clean up the argument above and ask that users who receive staff permission to post here only make a single thorough comment providing their full views and evidence for it instead of just arguing back and forth in circles.
Not really. The point about a staff thread is to focus comments on a thing, not remove all other interaction entirely. The most we could do now would either limit it to one pro vs one con or just keep it as is and just remove off topic stuff.Is there something we can do to make participation stricter?
The setting of CCC.
If one thinks of the moon as having two sides, the side facing Earth is the Near Side, while the opposite...the side that cannot be observed from the Earth is the Far Side.
While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor of the Near Side and heads for the seventh floor ~ the core, CCC starts from the Far Side (no concept of floors). Though the path may differ, the end goal for both is the core of the Moon Cell.
The Far Side of the Moon is a place where data deemed unnecessary by the Moon Cell is kept, similar to a dumping ground.
It is imaginary number space that continuously takes in data categorized as malignant information――that which is nothing but harmful to humans as well as intelligent lifeforms in general.
The Far Side is territory so taboo that even the “Eye” in the core of the Moon Cell is forbidden to enter.
Data that have entered this place, after becoming engulfed in humanity’s malignance and losing sight of their purpose of existence, ultimately become deprived of meaning.
The Far Side can also be said to be an ocean that has amassed the pollutants that the Moon Cell accrues as it makes its observations.
The Backside of the Moon Cell (Setting)
The main setting of CCC
The moon is beautifully divided into two halves, with the front of the moon facing towards the Earth and the opposite side of the moon that isn't able to observe Earth, just think of it as the backside of the moon
Fate/Extra takes place on the surface of the moon (first layer) and players must progress towards the seventh layer, then to the core of the Moon Cell. CCC (with no layers) is on the backside of the moon, Although the paths that they travel are different, both polar sides aim towards the centre of the moon.
The backside of the moon contains information that Moon Cell deems unnecessary, similar to a garbage site.
This is known as the imaginary number space, which consumes the data that it deems as malicious. It is only harmful to humans or in other cases, to intelligent life forms.
The backside of the moon is the highest taboo area where even the "eye" of the Moon Cell's centre is unable to enter.
The data entered here are consumed by humanity's evil, losing its existence.
It is akin to an ocean, continuing to collect any polluted data coming from Earth.
Since I got complaints over on Discord I'll revoke Marsh's right to comment on the thread
They say it stores the possibilities, with it then being said that those possibilites are timelines, whether you argue they're stored as light or not is sorta irrelavant because the "light" used here isn't normal irl light anyway, and we see that these possibilities (timelines) exist as actual things as well, given the entire plot of Extella is hopping between them, like, the entire game ceases to function narratively if the idea that the timelines don't exist is true, therefore it just sorta has to be false. Additionally the idea that it's just Earth also has to be false, because even ignoring Nasu Cosmology and what the World really is, again stuff in space like the Horsehead Nebula and beyond are also in these timelinesAs requested by DeagonX here are some of the points that I think is misinterpreted with the Moon Cell, in my honest opinion
- Whether the Moon Cell universes or different versions of Earth
So, several characters in the game has described that the Moon Cell doesn't contain universes, but it contains different futures of the Earth
I remember that the Moon Cell stores these possibilities of Earth in the form of light. The Moon Cell is able to simulate those Earths depending on the user's wish to the Holy Grail.
According to this as I said, it's not that the worlds don't exist until called upon, it's that calling upon it with the core (grail) makes that reality for the outside.Holy Grail [Circumstances]
This had once been a term pointing out to the "wish granting machine that could grant any wish", but in Extra it's referring to the "right to use the Moon Cell."
If you browse through the vast records of Earth simulations stored in the Moon Cell, you are sure to find the Earth with the future you desire.
All you, you who have earned the right to use the Moon Cell, have to do is tell it this:
"Recreate my ideal future."
The Moon Cell should quickly move things forward so that the Earth will take the shape of that future.
For the Moon knows how, it knows all that is to be done to make it so.
Extella's materials and the Altera route intro specifically state that its the propagation (creating more of) worlds, specifically of dead end worlds which are useless and distinct from the "tree of time", and lack the ability to produce viable worlds themselves. If it's explicitly stated that the propagation or proliferation of these is the problem, then the initial amount being infinite, as FGO, CCC and FSN have all told us, is not clashing with this statement and both can coexist. This means that any amount of pruning wouldn't reduce the total amount under infiniteSo, according to Fate Extella the universe has finite energy, hence it regularly purges different timelines of these Earths. In my opinion, if the universe has finite energy and has to cull timelines on a regular basis, then it containing "infinite universes" honestly doesn't make sense.
The Klaeidostick, much like the jewled sword, siphons leaked energy from parallel worlds, and the amount is literally infinite. Not 'metaphorically infinite', not 'functionally infinite', Literally Infinite. If you say each world has finite energy, then this is only possible if there are infinite parallel worlds as stated explicitly in the franchise, another example besides the ones already used of there being infinite is the following, where First Lady just explicitly says it for us.Infinite Magic Energy Supply: C
A literally infinite supply of magic energy from the Kaleidostick.
But due to the output being restrained by the user's own Magic Circuit's ability, Illya still yet to be able to show the stick's original power.
Unlimited Mana Supply: B
Literally infinite mana is supplied from the Kaleidostick.
However, its output is restricted by the performance of the practitioner’s Magical Circuits.
Now this almost makes sense, but like, are we really going to pretend that power on par with the solar system is a 4-B amount of energy. Are we truly going to pretend that, when you yourself are admitting that Avalon is 6d, and located in the Earth. When Earth's top layer includes the known universe, and even the reverse side has outer space in it, along with INS and a ton of other stuff. Each celestial body is alive and able to prune entire timelines (the World, is specifically the name for the collective of Gaia and Alaya, and its what prunes whole timelines), and we're really going to pretend for even a moment that "solar system level power" is an anti feat?Lastly, the most concerning is if the Moon Cell energy output is the same as the solar system. it just doesn't add up if the Moon Cell is on-par with a solar system, and contains universes simultaneously, it is a a paradox.
This entire section is just "well you see in KKK X is true, therefore it must be true here" which is fallacious in and of itself and doesn't actually give anything to respond to.
- Whether the Moon Cell contains spatial dimensions
The 8-D in my opinion is talking about layers because in a similar case in Kajiri Kamui Kagura with Madara Yakou's shield, it mentions "dimensional dislocation", but the context talks about layers of the shield. They weren't spatial dimensions by any means, because he was deploying those shields in the gaps of spacetime. I don't recall that the shields themselves were made-up of spacetime. Hence, the argument doesn't make sense. Therefore, my suggestion is to downgrade the Moon Cell to Low 1-C, according to Avalon's statement, because it records every aspect of Earth's events, I think Low 1-C via Avalon's scaling is more appropriate than the vague 8-D statement that BB said.
Wait, I never said that the timeline/possibilities wasn't true. I meant that timeline = universes is what I disagree on. Don't misunderstand me.They say it stores the possibilities, with it then being said that those possibilites are timelines, whether you argue they're stored as light or not is sorta irrelavant because the "light" used here isn't normal irl light anyway, and we see that these possibilities (timelines) exist as actual things as well, given the entire plot of Extella is hopping between them, like, the entire game ceases to function narratively if the idea that the timelines don't exist is true, therefore it just sorta has to be false. Additionally the idea that it's just Earth also has to be false, because even ignoring Nasu Cosmology and what the World really is, again stuff in space like the Horsehead Nebula and beyond are also in these timelines
uhh... Zelretch's ability literally calls the world having limited lifespan... And infinite timelines of the universe =/= timelines of the human universe.The Klaeidostick, much like the jewled sword, siphons leaked energy from parallel worlds, and the amount is literally infinite. Not 'metaphorically infinite', not 'functionally infinite', Literally Infinite. If you say each world has finite energy, then this is only possible if there are infinite parallel worlds as stated explicitly in the franchise, another example besides the ones already used of there being infinite is the following, where First Lady just explicitly says it for us.
Abilities
The father of jewel magecraft—to store magical energy in minerals, stabilize them and use it for various applications in life and for supporting civilization.
Even if we assume that the Earth did not fall into the hands of humanity—remaining in the Age of Gods—he might have still piloted rockets using just his jewels
The Second Magic concerns the attestation and application of parallel worlds.
By making it possible to travel to parallel worlds, he proved that there is still room for the world to develop in alternate ways.
Thanks to this, the world’s lifespan has been extended. Even if our history fails, and we destroy ourselves, there might still be others of us out there—this concept granted hope to the planet, which had been in the process of losing its dreams.
Zelretch’s method for travelling through parallel words is a simple one—he transfers himself to a jewel in a different temporal axis.
For example: if he wants to transfer from World A to World B, he will gather jewels in World B until they gather up enough to take Zelretch’s shape, and then Zelretch’s soul will transfer over. In an instant, the jewel golem transforms into Zelretch. At that point, the Zelretch in World A will turn back into its original form as a pile of jewels.
Except this is just, not the case in CCC, they're never said or implied to be fake, in fact they're shown to be real because well, people really interact with them and go to them and whatever, like in that very scene for example.Thanks for clarifying with Paul. And I hope the staff do not mind me reply to Paul's contention.
The thing is, when Sessouyin Kiara sent Gilgamesh to the Horsehead Nebula she called it a "conceptual universe" and conceptual universe isn't equivalent to the real universe. Everything in the conceptual universe are all fake, including the galaxy and the Nebula Horsehead.
Kiara is surprised to see that Gilgamesh came back when she sent him to end of the galaxy and claimed that Gilgamesh had to go faster than light, in order to make it back. The thing is Gilgamesh made it back with the Ship of Light, calling Kiara an idiot, belittling her for not knowing that Gilgamesh wouldn't have something in his treasure that would allow him to travel at the speed of light 馬鹿め、我が宝物に、光の船がないとでも思ったのか?
And the fact that she said called it 概念宇宙であれ、一瞬で詰められる距離ではありません!光より速く飛んできたとでも!? which means it is the conceptual universe and we know that within the conceptual universe, everything is fake.
So this is just, really weird to use as evidence. These are simply not talking about the same things, this is Da Vinci calling a singularity a "conceptual" universe, with it being said there that she means it's a compact model of a universe.
Da Vinci says that the conceptual universe has no other celestial bodies, which indicates that the stars in it are fake. This is without mentioning the existence of other conceptual universes that are much smaller than a planet and whatnot.
So all they know is the basic layout, we know this is about all they know as well, because they weren't even able to locate the time temple prior to like, right before this briefing we're getting in this scene, and we hadn't entered the actual singularity yet, and so Chaldea had never had any visual information about the singularity at all (this one is unique in that they just outright can't really scan or interact with it without being inside, which is why there's the anchor point deadlines and everything, unlike other Singularites). I'm saying this to say that this preliminary analysis of the singularity might have been wrong, we're told the idea that there's no other Celestial Bodies in this "miniature universe", and then, when we enter it we see something rather interesting. Drake even says they're stars, specifically saying that if they're in the sky we can follow them. The entire idea they're fake is predicated on the fact that Da Vinci says there aren't any, but that fails to understand that she might have just been wrong, via not having any information at all to go off of.Yes. Thanks to Sheba's analysis, we know the basic layout of the enemy territory.
I... what?Goetia burned all of human history/human order and collected the energy from it. It totaled up to be enough to destroy his conceptual universe in a supernova explosion. Unless you are saying that the Moon Cell > Earth in the amount of energy it has, this doesn't make sense. Because the energy the Moon Cell has is from observing the Earth and storing its human history as light. The Moon Cell also follows the same Laws of Quantum Time Locks as the Foundation of Humanity as stated in the Fate/Extella scan, so it too has limited energy.
Again what? The entire first part of this just isn't true, you're for some reason assuming that Goetia destroying the foundation of humanity inherently means he can destroy the Moon Cell, these two things have no correlation at all, the foundation of humanity does not apply on the Moon, and we know this for sure. If the foundation of human history being destroyed would destroy the Mooncell, then BB and the Summer Festival event wouldn't have happened, because human order is gone as of the Lostbelt Prologue, with that taking place during SIN, the third lostbelt. So we just outright know the destruction of the human order foundation doesn't destroy the Mooncell as you seem to be implying. Your second portion is confusing. You're asking "if the Moon Cell is above Goetia, why can it do things he can't". Well, the Moon Cell being above him would be why.And, If Goetia can destroy the Foundation of Humanity, that means he's on a level to destroy the Moon Cell as well as the Moon Cell's Foundation of Humanity applies on the moon as well. Now you have to explain if Moon Cell > Goetia and then why can the Moon Cell can create a conceptual universe with stars and a nebula unlike Goetia who can't.
Now onto the Extella scans we know that those timelines are stated to be Earths, unless you are going to deny the scan saying that the real world has a singular universe that has limited energy, hence why Quantum Timelock kicks in, can I ask the staff how are there an infinite universe if a singular universe can't even maintain an endlessly branching of Earths/parallel worlds?? This is evident in both the English versions of the guidebook and the Fate/Extella scans.
What does this last sentence even mean. "Infinite timelines of the universe=/=timelines of the human universe", not only is this nonsensical its just untrue. Zelretch's ability is specifically just explicitly infinite universes, First Lady says as much, etc, its not infinite timelines of the human universe, its just infinite universes/infinite timelines. These timelines and universes also all have humans as the prime species, are the same in foundation, etc, therefore the two terms you made up right now, are quite literally the same, human universe and just the universe aren't two separate types of timeline as you're trying to imply based on literally nothing.We know from this context that the dimension it's referring to is the universe itself and that the Moon Cell follows this exact law.
uhh... Zelretch's ability literally calls the world having limited lifespan... And infinite timelines of the universe =/= timelines of the human universe.
Thanks for clarifying with me Paul. And I hope the staff do not mind me reply to Paul's contention.
Wait, I never said that the timeline/possibilities wasn't true. I meant that timeline = universes is what I disagree on. Don't misunderstand me.
We know that these timelines are in-fact Earth, not universes according to Fate Extella. I also argued saying that that the Moon Cell only simulates Earth virtually, it doesn't contain universes. And furthermore, the Moon Cell operates the same as the Order of Humanity, hence it it culls down on the possibilities of Earth as well via Quantum Timelock.
The Horsehead Nebula is outside of the Moon Cell, it isn't within the Moon Cell. As Gilgamesh said that if the Moon Cell doesn't take [Hakuno], then he will take her to another planet that's separate to the moon, with intelligent lives. Actually Fate/Extella actually says that these timelines or possibilities are not universes, but solely different versions of Earth.
Now onto the Extella scans, we know that those timelines are stated to be Earths, unless you are going to deny the scan because it is clear as day, saying that the real world has a singular universe that has limited energy, hence why Quantum Timelock kicks in, can I ask everyone present here, how are these infinite universes, if a singular universe can't even maintain an endless branch of Earths/parallel worlds?? This is evident in both the English versions of the guidebook and the Fate/Extella scans.
We know from this context that the dimension it's referring to is the universe itself and that the Moon Cell follows this exact law.
uhh... Zelretch's ability literally calls the world having limited lifespan... And infinite timelines of the universe =/= timelines of the human universe.
Height/Weight:160 cm ~ 74000000 km²・??kg
Source: Ancient Mesopotamian Mythology
Region: Mesopotamia
Alignment: Chaotic ・ Evil
Gender: Female
The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite. In other words, she is a four-dimensional pocket.
That's probably ideal.I suggest we start with defining the foundational Real World Characteristics before we get into the Moon Cell mechanics and its simulations.
However, that does not seem logical to me. If the initial amount is infinite, it seems impossible that the addition of more would somehow exhaust the universe. I would be more inclined to think that the ideal reconciliation of that information is that it's not truly infinite, but can be described as infinite because of this information:Extella's materials and the Altera route intro specifically state that its the propagation (creating more of) worlds, specifically of dead end worlds which are useless and distinct from the "tree of time", and lack the ability to produce viable worlds themselves. If it's explicitly stated that the propagation or proliferation of these is the problem, then the initial amount being infinite, as FGO, CCC and FSN have all told us, is not clashing with this statement and both can coexist. This means that any amount of pruning wouldn't reduce the total amount under infinite
If you ignore that for some reason, then that statement is simply the outlier, as it's contested by multiple statements made at multiple points over the years, and thus its the inconsistent one, either way results in it not actually proving there aren't infinite timelines. Just for the heck of it, some more stuff showing there are infinite timelines
The Real World "permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history."
I just want to tell but while Quantum time lock cull the timeline to prevent the needless expenditure of enerfy, these timeline still "exist" in some way. The best example are the lostbelt whose timeline got erased by Quantum time lock but then got anchored way later in the real world by Lostbelt Tree.To my understanding, The Real World "permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history."
However, "unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe."
So, Timelines "are culled so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy."
Basically, it could grow to such an amount, but if there are too many active timelines, The Real World would die.
If I may respectfully interject here... the original LN of Fate/Stay Night also establishes a decently explanation to infinite parallel worlds existing and it being a core aspect of why the final fight of Heaven's Feel played out the way it did (with the scene even pointing out the difference between seemingly infinite vs. actually infinite). So the infinite statements aren't 'one off' as you're saying.I tend to be inclined towards the Quantum Time Lock scan because it's not just a single off statement using the word infinity, it very concretely established a limitation and mechanism for solving it, so that is pretty serious to me.
I was under the impression that the beginning of time started with 1 timeline that branched off. It has the potential to reach infinity, but the culling prevents this.Yes, exactly. This was Paul's rebuttal to it:
However, that does not seem logical to me. If the initial amount is infinite, it seems impossible that the addition of more would somehow exhaust the universe. I would be more inclined to think that the ideal reconciliation of that information is that it's not truly infinite, but can be described as infinite because of this information:
Yeah, I think this is a good example of how the verse tends to play fast and loose with the word "infinite" and use it in a practical rather than literal sense.If I may respectfully interject here... the original LN of Fate/Stay Night also establishes a decently explanation to infinite parallel worlds existing and it being a core aspect of why the final fight of Heaven's Feel played out the way it did (with the scene even pointing out the difference between seemingly infinite vs. actually infinite). So the 'infinite' statements aren't one off as you're saying.
Here is the full scene for context... The stamped minute to minute 1:23:00. Minute 1:18:00 says that Sakura's magical supply is seemingly infinite, and minute 1:22:24 establishes literal infinite magic supply for Rin with the infinite parallel worlds. Rin uses something called Zelretch's Jewel Sword to extract mana from parallel worlds for context.
Yeah, I agree.I was under the impression that the beginning of time started with 1 timeline that branched off. It has the potential to reach infinity, but the culling prevents this.
Culled off Timelines eventually cease to exist, leaving the current number of active timelines as finite.
Your claim is that a single universe has parallel earths, which are finite due to QTL, but that there are infinite timelines that encompass the entire universe, which are infinite? That doesn't appear to be supported by the evidence at all. The Quantum Time Lock scans refer to possibilities of the universe.a singular universe concerns itself with many parallel earths and there are also completely separate timelines of the UNIVERSE. Those can be infinite in number but have nothing to do with the parallel earths which a singular universe CANNOT contain an infinite amount of due to finite energy.
I should've worded it better. I meant infinite timelines as in just standard universe timeline stuff. Then these timelines basically completely independent of each other can create or hold a countless amount of parallel earths. Nasuverse cosmology is confusing.Your claim is that a single universe has parallel earths, which are finite due to QTL, but that there are infinite timelines that encompass the entire universe, which are infinite? That doesn't appear to be supported by the evidence at all. The Quantum Time Lock scans refer to possibilities of the universe.
I don't really see any evidence of that being the case.I should've worded it better. I meant infinite timelines as in just standard universe timeline stuff. Then these timelines basically completely independent of each other can create or hold a countless amount of parallel earths. Nasuverse cosmology is confusing.