Nasuverse - Moon Cell Cosmology Re-Evaluation Part 1

[PrinceofPein]

The moon cell records different timelines and possibilities,

Recording possibilities of earth or the solar system, and not timelines, since that makes it inflated

 

[Deagonx]

Let's limit the amount of back and forth here. This is a staff discussion thread and if the argument snowballs too much no one will be able to read it.

 

[Regidian]

On this part, I will contend that the scan very directly says that the Mooncell is a device for observing earth, and says that the "parallel worlds" are the possibilities of earth. I haven't seen the evidence that suggests that possibilities are true timelines, but even if they were, it's very clear that the possibilities only entail Earth, not the universe.

I can't speak to the accuracy of the translation, but the progression seems very logical. If the Moon Cell is directly described as an Earth-observation device, recording the possibilities of Earth, and these possibilities are the parallel worlds, then they definitely aren't universes.


Regarding this, I haven't seen the evidence detailing that it contains an infinite amount, but there seems to be evidence against that notion in scans from Fate/Extella. For instance:

And this set of scans, which read:



So it seems fairly concrete to me, assuming that these translations are accurate, that the Moon Cell very definitively contains Earths, not Universes, and that the number of timelines is concretely finite, as is the amount of energy in the universe.

I'm here just to correct some thing in this comment.

While it's directly say that moon cell is a device that observe earth, we have direct feat that show that the the "universe/space" simulated by moon cell are way bigger.
One of the exemple is Kiara sending the servant we have in the Norsehead nebula while still being inside moon cell.

殺生院キアラ
銀河の果てに飛ばしたのに??！
概念宇宙であれ、一瞬で
詰められる距離ではありません！
光より速く飛んできたとでも！？

キャス
もち、光より早く飛んできました！
なにしろ、ダンナ様が悪魔に
たぶらかされるかの瀬戸際ですから。

時間の逆行もなんのその、
馬頭星雲から銀河系まで無に短縮！
これがゼロ距離恋愛というものです！

Now for the parallele world it's too directly contradicted in multiple instance. The most obvious one are in fate grand order with the parrallele world "Servant Universe" who is a parrallele world where the universe had reached and update and a new universe was created and the boss is a galaxy of the old universe.

In case of moon cell the case would be that moon cell itself exist in the different parrallele world of earth. Were we have artoria that have killed Sefar and the harvest star in the Nameless timeline.

.



For the infinity possibilities we have instance in Fate Extra where it's tell they are infinite number of these. Here is the raw and traduction we have.





I can give more feat about them if you want. And if you have any question about moon cell size or anything just ask.

 

[Regidian]

.

I mean, if the only evidence is the Moon Cell barriers being 8D for 1-C I don't know if that's a legitimate 1-C justification. Not because it is or isn't Tier 1, but due to the size of the object. It had to be comparable to a universe in scope to get a Tier 1 rating afaik.

While Firestorm got the amount of staff wrong, ultimately speaking for Tier 1 revisions its staff input that matters. So they aren't wrong about that.

Correct something here too, it's not the barrier that is 8D. What the barrier does is cutting through 8 dimensions to protect the core from external threat. ( And it's not layer since it doesn't even exist 8 layers but 7 in moon cell and the kanji used for layers and the kanji used for dimmension is not the same but paul already showed this).

Now for the size of Moon cell. Moon cell is composed of two part the near side and far side.

In one of tha arena we have a space that is an infinite labyrinth.

.

And in Far side we have Imaginary number space, who is an infinite space that can contain Tiamat who true self volume is infinite.


Female
The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite.

黒い泥もティアマトの身長となる。ただし泥は虚数なので重さは計量できない。
反面、体積は無限となる。

 

[ImmortalDread]

Again, how does an area having depth debunk their point?

Because an area refers to a two-dimensional surface or region, such as a flat piece of land, then it does not have depth. It only has length and width.

(seems the person below clarify it, you can ignore it)

Bcz it's tell area? Area 36, first floor. And nobody tell that the infinite chimerie is a mathematical dimmension. It's just here to show that moon cell size is still infinite.

Then I should have misunderstood, tho is there any visual feat for 8 dimension one because I am iffy that we take those statements at face value as we no longer do dimensional scaling

 

[Regidian]

Because an area refers to a two-dimensional surface or region, such as a flat piece of land, then it does not have depth. It only has length and width.

(seems the person below clarify it, you can ignore it)

Then I should have misunderstood, tho is there any visual feat for 8 dimension one because I am iffy that we take those statements at face value as we no longer do dimensional scaling

Visual feat? The feat is BB describing what she see and about to do (passing through the barrier), i could send you the scan when she tell it. But we don't see the barrier. Tho if it's can help, the core of moon cell is itself declared as being higher dimmensional

 

[ImmortalDread]

So, I will take there is absolutely no visual feat. Noted (wanted to make sure)

And do you mean the one with higher dimensional perspective? Because I differ to take as an evidence for straight-out 8 dimensions.

 

[Regidian]

So, I will take there is absolutely no visual feat. Noted (wanted to make sure)

And do you mean the one with higher dimensional perspective? Because I differ to take as an evidence for straight-out 8 dimensions.

Alternate Translation:

Rani :: …Indeed. We can conjecture that it is in order to prevent them from deviating from their function as observational mechanisms, but…In truth, it may have been to prevent cases like the present one from occurring. The Moon Cell is the eyes of god. The photon-based recording medium in the Core is a higher dimensional existence.

 

[Migue79]

I remember there being a statement suggesting the 7th layer of the Near Side of the Moon & the core’s distance being infinite. Not sure how impactful that’ll be here.

 

[Deagonx]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808

Is there something we can do to make participation stricter? About half the page is shotgun-blast back and forth between non-staff which defeats the purpose of having a staff discussion IMO.

The subject I think is pretty important and if it gets bogged down by the kind of un-conclusive banter above its just going to go the way of the other threads where no one really wants to touch it due to how much of a mess it has become. I don't want to do it on my own, but I'd like to clean up the argument above and ask that users who receive staff permission to post here only make a single thorough comment providing their full views and evidence for it instead of just arguing back and forth in circles.

 

[Deagonx]

I got authorized by Crimson, you can ask him

I'm aware that everyone who is participating got permission. If they hadn't I would've just removed them.

Myself, Ultima, and Ant have already talked about changing the way we grant authorization for staff discussion threads and plan to have a wider discussion about it later on, but I think this thread is a good example of how the current system of "anyone who gets permission from any staff member at all can treat the thread like a regular CRT" is antithetical to the concept of a staff discussion and very quickly turns it into a hard-to-follow avalanche of circular arguing

 

[Regidian]

I'm aware that everyone who is participating got permission. If they hadn't I would've just removed them.

Myself, Ultima, and Ant have already talked about changing the way we grant authorization for staff discussion threads and plan to have a wider discussion about it later on, but I think this thread is a good example of how the current system of "anyone who gets permission from any staff member at all can treat the thread like a regular CRT" is antithetical to the concept of a staff discussion and very quickly turns it into a hard-to-follow avalanche of circular arguing

Well my participation here is mostly because i needed to show you that what you commented was not what is show in the verse. You didn't know these feat for sure, and so i needed to show them.

 

[Migue79]

the whole counter argument is that the moon cell is not infinite, so that would be helpful

In that case… Here’s the scan.

From the Fate/Extra Materials (lower right corner).

And here… is a translation of the scan.

Also, I agree with Deagonx here. It should only be staff members, the OP and notably knowledgeable Nasuverse members (like Regidian & Paul Frank) commenting here.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808

Is there something we can do to make participation stricter? About half the page is shotgun-blast back and forth between non-staff which defeats the purpose of having a staff discussion IMO.

The subject I think is pretty important and if it gets bogged down by the kind of un-conclusive banter above its just going to go the way of the other threads where no one really wants to touch it due to how much of a mess it has become. I don't want to do it on my own, but I'd like to clean up the argument above and ask that users who receive staff permission to post here only make a single thorough comment providing their full views and evidence for it instead of just arguing back and forth in circles.

I'll go through the earlier and new posts and clean up so we stick with just the scans, limited editorialism.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Is there something we can do to make participation stricter?

Not really. The point about a staff thread is to focus comments on a thing, not remove all other interaction entirely. The most we could do now would either limit it to one pro vs one con or just keep it as is and just remove off topic stuff.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Alternate Translation:

The setting of CCC.
If one thinks of the moon as having two sides, the side facing Earth is the Near Side, while the opposite...the side that cannot be observed from the Earth is the Far Side.
While Fate/EXTRA starts from the first floor of the Near Side and heads for the seventh floor ~ the core, CCC starts from the Far Side (no concept of floors). Though the path may differ, the end goal for both is the core of the Moon Cell.
The Far Side of the Moon is a place where data deemed unnecessary by the Moon Cell is kept, similar to a dumping ground.
It is imaginary number space that continuously takes in data categorized as malignant information――that which is nothing but harmful to humans as well as intelligent lifeforms in general.
The Far Side is territory so taboo that even the “Eye” in the core of the Moon Cell is forbidden to enter.
Data that have entered this place, after becoming engulfed in humanity’s malignance and losing sight of their purpose of existence, ultimately become deprived of meaning.
The Far Side can also be said to be an ocean that has amassed the pollutants that the Moon Cell accrues as it makes its observations.

Spoiler: The Backside of the Moon Cell

The Backside of the Moon Cell (Setting)
The main setting of CCC
The moon is beautifully divided into two halves, with the front of the moon facing towards the Earth and the opposite side of the moon that isn't able to observe Earth, just think of it as the backside of the moon
Fate/Extra takes place on the surface of the moon (first layer) and players must progress towards the seventh layer, then to the core of the Moon Cell. CCC (with no layers) is on the backside of the moon, Although the paths that they travel are different, both polar sides aim towards the centre of the moon.
The backside of the moon contains information that Moon Cell deems unnecessary, similar to a garbage site.
This is known as the imaginary number space, which consumes the data that it deems as malicious. It is only harmful to humans or in other cases, to intelligent life forms.
The backside of the moon is the highest taboo area where even the "eye" of the Moon Cell's centre is unable to enter.
The data entered here are consumed by humanity's evil, losing its existence.
It is akin to an ocean, continuing to collect any polluted data coming from Earth.

 

[Firestorm808]

Please refrain from posts backlogging the thread. We are waiting for further staff participation.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Since I got complaints over on Discord I'll revoke Marsh's right to comment on the thread

 

[Deagonx]

Since I got complaints over on Discord I'll revoke Marsh's right to comment on the thread

With that said

@Chasekilleen

I'd like to reorient the discussion back towards the matter at hand. Can you help by providing a concise bullet-point list of the points of contention? Please do your best to list them in a neutral way, such as "Whether the Moon-Cell is 8-D"

And then, if you can, explain how that point of contention would affect the current tiering, such as "The Moon Cell being 8-D is currently the basis for [tier] scaling, and without it would be downgraded to [tier]" or that sort of thing, and then we can have a more organized discussion about the evidence and arguments for them.

 

[Chasekilleen]

As requested by DeagonX here are some of the points that I think is misinterpreted with the Moon Cell, in my honest opinion

• Whether the Moon Cell universes or different versions of Earth
  So, several characters in the game has described that the Moon Cell doesn't contain universes, but it contains different futures of the Earth
  I remember that the Moon Cell stores these possibilities of Earth in the form of light. The Moon Cell is able to simulate those Earths depending on the user's wish to the Holy Grail. So, according to Fate Extella the universe has finite energy, hence it regularly purges different timelines of these Earths. In my opinion, if the universe has finite energy and has to cull timelines on a regular basis, then it containing "infinite universes" honestly doesn't make sense. Lastly, the most concerning is if the Moon Cell energy output is the same as the solar system. it just doesn't add up if the Moon Cell is on-par with a solar system, and contains universes simultaneously, it is a a paradox.
  
  
• Whether the Moon Cell contains spatial dimensions
  The 8-D in my opinion is talking about layers because in a similar case in Kajiri Kamui Kagura with Madara Yakou's shield, it mentions "dimensional dislocation", but the context talks about layers of the shield being deployed in the gaps of spacetime. They weren't spatial dimensions by any means nor do I recall that the shields themselves were made-up of spacetime. Hence, the argument doesn't make sense. Therefore, my suggestion is to downgrade the Moon Cell to Low 1-C, according to Avalon's statement, because it records every aspect of Earth's events, I think Low 1-C via Avalon's scaling is more appropriate than the vague 8-D statement that BB said.

 

[Paul_Frank]

To respond to these again as well so it's easy to see

As requested by DeagonX here are some of the points that I think is misinterpreted with the Moon Cell, in my honest opinion

• Whether the Moon Cell universes or different versions of Earth
  So, several characters in the game has described that the Moon Cell doesn't contain universes, but it contains different futures of the Earth
  I remember that the Moon Cell stores these possibilities of Earth in the form of light. The Moon Cell is able to simulate those Earths depending on the user's wish to the Holy Grail.

They say it stores the possibilities, with it then being said that those possibilites are timelines, whether you argue they're stored as light or not is sorta irrelavant because the "light" used here isn't normal irl light anyway, and we see that these possibilities (timelines) exist as actual things as well, given the entire plot of Extella is hopping between them, like, the entire game ceases to function narratively if the idea that the timelines don't exist is true, therefore it just sorta has to be false. Additionally the idea that it's just Earth also has to be false, because even ignoring Nasu Cosmology and what the World really is, again stuff in space like the Horsehead Nebula and beyond are also in these timelines

The Mooncell also doesn't simulate them only when a wish is made, the wishes are to overwrite the outside world with a desired reality, and since the Mooncell has infinite possibilities simulated already, it knows how to make it so

Holy Grail [Circumstances]
This had once been a term pointing out to the "wish granting machine that could grant any wish", but in Extra it's referring to the "right to use the Moon Cell."
If you browse through the vast records of Earth simulations stored in the Moon Cell, you are sure to find the Earth with the future you desire.
All you, you who have earned the right to use the Moon Cell, have to do is tell it this:
"Recreate my ideal future."
The Moon Cell should quickly move things forward so that the Earth will take the shape of that future.
For the Moon knows how, it knows all that is to be done to make it so.

According to this as I said, it's not that the worlds don't exist until called upon, it's that calling upon it with the core (grail) makes that reality for the outside.

So, according to Fate Extella the universe has finite energy, hence it regularly purges different timelines of these Earths. In my opinion, if the universe has finite energy and has to cull timelines on a regular basis, then it containing "infinite universes" honestly doesn't make sense.

Extella's materials and the Altera route intro specifically state that its the propagation (creating more of) worlds, specifically of dead end worlds which are useless and distinct from the "tree of time", and lack the ability to produce viable worlds themselves. If it's explicitly stated that the propagation or proliferation of these is the problem, then the initial amount being infinite, as FGO, CCC and FSN have all told us, is not clashing with this statement and both can coexist. This means that any amount of pruning wouldn't reduce the total amount under infinite

If you ignore that for some reason, then that statement is simply the outlier, as it's contested by multiple statements made at multiple points over the years, and thus its the inconsistent one, either way results in it not actually proving there aren't infinite timelines. Just for the heck of it, some more stuff showing there are infinite timelines

Infinite Magic Energy Supply: C
A literally infinite supply of magic energy from the Kaleidostick.
But due to the output being restrained by the user's own Magic Circuit's ability, Illya still yet to be able to show the stick's original power.



Unlimited Mana Supply: B
Literally infinite mana is supplied from the Kaleidostick.
However, its output is restricted by the performance of the practitioner’s Magical Circuits.

The Klaeidostick, much like the jewled sword, siphons leaked energy from parallel worlds, and the amount is literally infinite. Not 'metaphorically infinite', not 'functionally infinite', Literally Infinite. If you say each world has finite energy, then this is only possible if there are infinite parallel worlds as stated explicitly in the franchise, another example besides the ones already used of there being infinite is the following, where First Lady just explicitly says it for us.

Lastly, the most concerning is if the Moon Cell energy output is the same as the solar system. it just doesn't add up if the Moon Cell is on-par with a solar system, and contains universes simultaneously, it is a a paradox.

Now this almost makes sense, but like, are we really going to pretend that power on par with the solar system is a 4-B amount of energy. Are we truly going to pretend that, when you yourself are admitting that Avalon is 6d, and located in the Earth. When Earth's top layer includes the known universe, and even the reverse side has outer space in it, along with INS and a ton of other stuff. Each celestial body is alive and able to prune entire timelines (the World, is specifically the name for the collective of Gaia and Alaya, and its what prunes whole timelines), and we're really going to pretend for even a moment that "solar system level power" is an anti feat?

• Whether the Moon Cell contains spatial dimensions
  The 8-D in my opinion is talking about layers because in a similar case in Kajiri Kamui Kagura with Madara Yakou's shield, it mentions "dimensional dislocation", but the context talks about layers of the shield. They weren't spatial dimensions by any means, because he was deploying those shields in the gaps of spacetime. I don't recall that the shields themselves were made-up of spacetime. Hence, the argument doesn't make sense. Therefore, my suggestion is to downgrade the Moon Cell to Low 1-C, according to Avalon's statement, because it records every aspect of Earth's events, I think Low 1-C via Avalon's scaling is more appropriate than the vague 8-D statement that BB said.

This entire section is just "well you see in KKK X is true, therefore it must be true here" which is fallacious in and of itself and doesn't actually give anything to respond to.

It also just isn't correct. That's because context here unlike KKK, doesn't talk about layers of anything. Like, context here is them explaining dimensions as having r>f differences over lower dimensions. The layers or floors of the Mooncell are mentioned in the Fate/EXTRA (not CCC) material book. Notably, CCC has a note that this concept of floors isn't even present, so not only does context not support it being layers, but rather the dimensions being cut through being the type they described in the game itself, but context implies layers as you're arguing simply aren't present period. Layers are quite literally just not mentioned in that entire segment in CCC, context can not possibly point to them in any reasonable person's mind.

I'm not sure how else to really respond to this part because it's really just "KKK does this so I think Nasu does too"

 

[Deagonx]

Tomorrow or perhaps Monday I will go over my assessment of the information provided so far and my main concerns.

 

[Firestorm808]

I have taken the liberty of collecting and transcribing all the raw Japanese scans presented here to text form.

Fate - Raw Scans and Text

docs.google.com

 

[Chasekilleen]

Thanks for clarifying with me Paul. And I hope the staff do not mind me reply to Paul's contention.

They say it stores the possibilities, with it then being said that those possibilites are timelines, whether you argue they're stored as light or not is sorta irrelavant because the "light" used here isn't normal irl light anyway, and we see that these possibilities (timelines) exist as actual things as well, given the entire plot of Extella is hopping between them, like, the entire game ceases to function narratively if the idea that the timelines don't exist is true, therefore it just sorta has to be false. Additionally the idea that it's just Earth also has to be false, because even ignoring Nasu Cosmology and what the World really is, again stuff in space like the Horsehead Nebula and beyond are also in these timelines

Wait, I never said that the timeline/possibilities wasn't true. I meant that timeline = universes is what I disagree on. Don't misunderstand me.
We know that these timelines are in-fact Earth, not universes according to Fate Extella. I also argued saying that that the Moon Cell only simulates Earth virtually, it doesn't contain universes. And furthermore, the Moon Cell operates the same as the Order of Humanity, hence it it culls down on the possibilities of Earth as well via Quantum Timelock.
The Horsehead Nebula is outside of the Moon Cell, it isn't within the Moon Cell. As Gilgamesh said that if the Moon Cell doesn't take [Hakuno], then he will take her to another planet that's separate to the moon, with intelligent lives. Actually Fate/Extella actually says that these timelines or possibilities are not universes, but solely different versions of Earth.




Now onto the Extella scans, we know that those timelines are stated to be Earths, unless you are going to deny the scan because it is clear as day, saying that the real world has a singular universe that has limited energy, hence why Quantum Timelock kicks in, can I ask everyone present here, how are these infinite universes, if a singular universe can't even maintain an endless branch of Earths/parallel worlds?? This is evident in both the English versions of the guidebook and the Fate/Extella scans.

We know from this context that the dimension it's referring to is the universe itself and that the Moon Cell follows this exact law.

The Klaeidostick, much like the jewled sword, siphons leaked energy from parallel worlds, and the amount is literally infinite. Not 'metaphorically infinite', not 'functionally infinite', Literally Infinite. If you say each world has finite energy, then this is only possible if there are infinite parallel worlds as stated explicitly in the franchise, another example besides the ones already used of there being infinite is the following, where First Lady just explicitly says it for us.

uhh... Zelretch's ability literally calls the world having limited lifespan... And infinite timelines of the universe =/= timelines of the human universe.

Abilities
The father of jewel magecraft—to store magical energy in minerals, stabilize them and use it for various applications in life and for supporting civilization.
Even if we assume that the Earth did not fall into the hands of humanity—remaining in the Age of Gods—he might have still piloted rockets using just his jewels

The Second Magic concerns the attestation and application of parallel worlds.
By making it possible to travel to parallel worlds, he proved that there is still room for the world to develop in alternate ways.
Thanks to this, the world’s lifespan has been extended. Even if our history fails, and we destroy ourselves, there might still be others of us out there—this concept granted hope to the planet, which had been in the process of losing its dreams.

Zelretch’s method for travelling through parallel words is a simple one—he transfers himself to a jewel in a different temporal axis.
For example: if he wants to transfer from World A to World B, he will gather jewels in World B until they gather up enough to take Zelretch’s shape, and then Zelretch’s soul will transfer over. In an instant, the jewel golem transforms into Zelretch. At that point, the Zelretch in World A will turn back into its original form as a pile of jewels.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Thanks for clarifying with Paul. And I hope the staff do not mind me reply to Paul's contention.

The thing is, when Sessouyin Kiara sent Gilgamesh to the Horsehead Nebula she called it a "conceptual universe" and conceptual universe isn't equivalent to the real universe. Everything in the conceptual universe are all fake, including the galaxy and the Nebula Horsehead.
Kiara is surprised to see that Gilgamesh came back when she sent him to end of the galaxy and claimed that Gilgamesh had to go faster than light, in order to make it back. The thing is Gilgamesh made it back with the Ship of Light, calling Kiara an idiot, belittling her for not knowing that Gilgamesh wouldn't have something in his treasure that would allow him to travel at the speed of light 馬鹿め、我が宝物に、光の船がないとでも思ったのか？
And the fact that she said called it 概念宇宙であれ、一瞬で詰められる距離ではありません！光より速く飛んできたとでも！？ which means it is the conceptual universe and we know that within the conceptual universe, everything is fake.

Except this is just, not the case in CCC, they're never said or implied to be fake, in fact they're shown to be real because well, people really interact with them and go to them and whatever, like in that very scene for example.

Spoiler: Nebula Horsehead

Da Vinci says that the conceptual universe has no other celestial bodies, which indicates that the stars in it are fake. This is without mentioning the existence of other conceptual universes that are much smaller than a planet and whatnot.

Spoiler: Conceptual Universe

So this is just, really weird to use as evidence. These are simply not talking about the same things, this is Da Vinci calling a singularity a "conceptual" universe, with it being said there that she means it's a compact model of a universe.

So there's a few reasons this just doesn't work to prove everything in the universe in CCC is fake. For one, you're doing that thing again where you take something from a completely unrelated scene in a completely unrelated game and try to connect it, this time this scene is from 3 years after CCC. That's already bad, but to go further, this scene is specifically talking about the Time Temple. She's saying a Reality Marble in INS, is a conceptual universe devoid of other celestial bodies. Now some important stuff to note for this explanation, this is based on preliminary analysis from the SHEBA lens, as seen in the line right before the first one you posted

Yes. Thanks to Sheba's analysis, we know the basic layout of the enemy territory.

So all they know is the basic layout, we know this is about all they know as well, because they weren't even able to locate the time temple prior to like, right before this briefing we're getting in this scene, and we hadn't entered the actual singularity yet, and so Chaldea had never had any visual information about the singularity at all (this one is unique in that they just outright can't really scan or interact with it without being inside, which is why there's the anchor point deadlines and everything, unlike other Singularites). I'm saying this to say that this preliminary analysis of the singularity might have been wrong, we're told the idea that there's no other Celestial Bodies in this "miniature universe", and then, when we enter it we see something rather interesting. Drake even says they're stars, specifically saying that if they're in the sky we can follow them. The entire idea they're fake is predicated on the fact that Da Vinci says there aren't any, but that fails to understand that she might have just been wrong, via not having any information at all to go off of.

As for other reasons this is bad, as I mentioned above, this scene and the scene in FGO are just completely different context wise. In FGO she is calling it a conceptual universe because it is a Singularity that is a Reality Marble, Reality Marbles themselves are just sorta, exactly that, they're conceptual universes that place your inner world onto the outer world and overwrites reality following the theory of the world egg. You'll note, the world in CCC is uhh, well its neither a reality marble, the things that are reality marbles are the buldings and such in the Serial Phantasm within the Near Side (very much not where CCC is), nor a singularity, so already they just aren't talking about the same thing. And even besides that, the "there's no other Celestial Bodies" isn't even being applied generally to conceptual universes in Da Vinci's statement, but rather specifically to the Time Temple, that line is exclusively being said about that single place, like she says "its a conceptual universe" and then says that unlike CHALDEAS this is a model of the universe, and then amends that statement to give the line about celestial bodies, following that up by saying that there's also only one life form in this universe, the entire scene is talking only about the Time Temple, its not giving some explanation of "conceptual universes"

So to go over why this angle of "the horsehead nebula and everything but earth is fake" we currently have

1- Da Vinci made that statement with an absurd lack of knowledge, and is shown to just outright be wrong
2- The scenes are talking about two completely different things (reality marble and singularity vs literally just a universe in CCC), in games 3 years apart and unrelated at that point
3- The scene in question doesn't even describe this as a characteristic of conceptual universes as a whole, or singularities as a whole, instead establishing it specifically as a characteristic of exclusively the Time Temple

With these three things being said, especially the last one, its just impossible to use this scene to argue that the entire galaxy outside of Earth in the CCC universes isn't real, and thus the rest of space isn't either and its only earth and not a universe (that's also not even what she says, she doesn't say "the celestial bodies in it aren't real, she says there are none period, to take that to mean that they are present but not real is grossly stretching her words too, which is another issue)

Goetia burned all of human history/human order and collected the energy from it. It totaled up to be enough to destroy his conceptual universe in a supernova explosion. Unless you are saying that the Moon Cell > Earth in the amount of energy it has, this doesn't make sense. Because the energy the Moon Cell has is from observing the Earth and storing its human history as light. The Moon Cell also follows the same Laws of Quantum Time Locks as the Foundation of Humanity as stated in the Fate/Extella scan, so it too has limited energy.

I... what?
Nothing in this section makes any sense at all. First you go "Goetia collected energy and that energy could destroy his singularity, therefore this doesn't make sense unless you say the Moon Cell has more energy than Earth". Not only does the first part of this just not lead into the second at all by any stretch of the imagination, it also doesn't even argue or disprove anything. The Mooncell having more energy than the Earth or the Earth having more than the Mooncell doesn't at all conflict with any points I've made in this thread, this is a complete non argument.

As for the part where you say that the energy the Mooncell has is from observing Earth, uhh, no? How would the Mooncell only get power from observing Earth if Earth didn't exist when it was made. How was it powered on to observe then, nothing existed to observe, so where did the power come from? The actual power source of the Moon Cell is the ultra high purity Photonic Crystal. This is similar to Tri-Hermes, Paracelsus's NP and many other things which use Photonic Crystals as power sources in verse, it can just power stuff because reasons.

And, If Goetia can destroy the Foundation of Humanity, that means he's on a level to destroy the Moon Cell as well as the Moon Cell's Foundation of Humanity applies on the moon as well. Now you have to explain if Moon Cell > Goetia and then why can the Moon Cell can create a conceptual universe with stars and a nebula unlike Goetia who can't.

Again what? The entire first part of this just isn't true, you're for some reason assuming that Goetia destroying the foundation of humanity inherently means he can destroy the Moon Cell, these two things have no correlation at all, the foundation of humanity does not apply on the Moon, and we know this for sure. If the foundation of human history being destroyed would destroy the Mooncell, then BB and the Summer Festival event wouldn't have happened, because human order is gone as of the Lostbelt Prologue, with that taking place during SIN, the third lostbelt. So we just outright know the destruction of the human order foundation doesn't destroy the Mooncell as you seem to be implying. Your second portion is confusing. You're asking "if the Moon Cell is above Goetia, why can it do things he can't". Well, the Moon Cell being above him would be why.

Assuming you meant to put Goetia above the Moon Cell, then uhh, who says Goetia can't? Like, this argument is essentially just, "well, someone stronger than the Mooncell didn't do it, so that means the Mooncell could never have done it" which is a terrible argument, its equivalent to saying "well this guy blew up a mountain but this other guy I said is stronger didn't do that, and just sat at home, so how could the first guy blow up a mountain?", he just simply didn't have to or didn't want to works as a perfectly fine explanation here.

Now onto the Extella scans we know that those timelines are stated to be Earths, unless you are going to deny the scan saying that the real world has a singular universe that has limited energy, hence why Quantum Timelock kicks in, can I ask the staff how are there an infinite universe if a singular universe can't even maintain an endlessly branching of Earths/parallel worlds?? This is evident in both the English versions of the guidebook and the Fate/Extella scans.

Yes, I am going to deny the assertion that the mat is saying that the timelines are only Earths and that its saying in the real world there's only a singular universe which has limited energy and so then there's only Earths in each timeline, because again, we see they're more than that in literally every time we see one, since you're getting into other timelines outside of CCC, how about stuff like Tsuki no Sango or Notes, where threats from outer space exist, or humanity takes to the stars and leaves, neither of those functions if those timelines are only Earth, in fact, using this assumption that there's no outer space in these timelines and just Earths, Gaia can never call the Types because they'd be elsewhere because of Notes, with some being dead, rather than on their home planet where she calls from, ORT can never make it to Earth because he can never make it from the Oort Cloud, although we see he does, we're told the moon is different in some timelines, we see that Velber comes from space in each timeline despite Velber 02 dying and then her remnants being obliterated in the Gigantomachia, and that comes from outside the galaxy and flies through it each time. When you take exactly 2 seconds to realize that all of these things in space existing in each timeline independent of eachother means that, well space itself and these things exist as part of these timelines, the idea that the timelines only have Earth becomes impossible.

Beyond that though, this is a really weird reading of this (again). The line says universe yeah, but this doesn't at all mean suddenly its the universe, there's only one, and everything else is just Earths. Specifically, when talking about universe as in actual universes people go to or are from, they use world, or sekai as seen in the explanations for the universe of record and universe of observation, and Waver's dialogue in FGO and just about literally everywhere. As I said above, its impossible to argue against these worlds including the far reaches of space and being the actual universe in each timeline, because of the existence of those things independently in each timeline. Universe as a term here then, can just be used to refer to the totality of existence rather than the physical area known as space. This is what universe actually means afterall when you get down to it (multiverse is technically a nonsensical term because of that). Using universe like this makes the line not conflict with what we're shown, and thus is a more likely and logical way to look at the statement,

The alternative (the one you want where it means there's only one universe and everything else is just a bunch of timelines with earth only) requires us to ignore the entire franchise for it to be true (Sefar stuff and ORT stuff is intrinsic to a ton of the series), which, I don't think I need to tell you why that's bad. All of this is of course without getting into all of the other cosmology stuff for the verse, like the descriptions Tsukihime gave for Textures, or what FGO has told us about the World, which further make this point impossible to be true

We know from this context that the dimension it's referring to is the universe itself and that the Moon Cell follows this exact law.

uhh... Zelretch's ability literally calls the world having limited lifespan... And infinite timelines of the universe =/= timelines of the human universe.

What does this last sentence even mean. "Infinite timelines of the universe=/=timelines of the human universe", not only is this nonsensical its just untrue. Zelretch's ability is specifically just explicitly infinite universes, First Lady says as much, etc, its not infinite timelines of the human universe, its just infinite universes/infinite timelines. These timelines and universes also all have humans as the prime species, are the same in foundation, etc, therefore the two terms you made up right now, are quite literally the same, human universe and just the universe aren't two separate types of timeline as you're trying to imply based on literally nothing.

The description there is saying that the 2nd magic gave hope to humanity because the existence of parallel worlds, since they essentially meant that even if you died out along with your world, there's another world where you're just fine, that's what it meant by increasing lifespan.

Additionally, by you yourself saying they have limited lifespan (energy), you're accepting what I said. If the sticks have infinite energy by drawing it in from other universes, and if each has limited lifespan according to you, then there's an infinite amount of them. Your single argument against everything that says there's infinite universes, is saying there's finite energy in a universe and thus can't be infinite universes, this argument itself makes the existence of infinite universes a necessity via descriptions of the kaleido sticks. If you then say that universes can have infinite energy to try and counter that, the only counter argument against everything that says there's infinite universes goes away, and so the multiple things saying that get used as further proof.

In either case you come to the conclusion that there are infinite universes.

 

[Regidian]

Thanks for clarifying with me Paul. And I hope the staff do not mind me reply to Paul's contention.

Wait, I never said that the timeline/possibilities wasn't true. I meant that timeline = universes is what I disagree on. Don't misunderstand me.
We know that these timelines are in-fact Earth, not universes according to Fate Extella. I also argued saying that that the Moon Cell only simulates Earth virtually, it doesn't contain universes. And furthermore, the Moon Cell operates the same as the Order of Humanity, hence it it culls down on the possibilities of Earth as well via Quantum Timelock.
The Horsehead Nebula is outside of the Moon Cell, it isn't within the Moon Cell. As Gilgamesh said that if the Moon Cell doesn't take [Hakuno], then he will take her to another planet that's separate to the moon, with intelligent lives. Actually Fate/Extella actually says that these timelines or possibilities are not universes, but solely different versions of Earth.




Now onto the Extella scans, we know that those timelines are stated to be Earths, unless you are going to deny the scan because it is clear as day, saying that the real world has a singular universe that has limited energy, hence why Quantum Timelock kicks in, can I ask everyone present here, how are these infinite universes, if a singular universe can't even maintain an endless branch of Earths/parallel worlds?? This is evident in both the English versions of the guidebook and the Fate/Extella scans.

We know from this context that the dimension it's referring to is the universe itself and that the Moon Cell follows this exact law.

uhh... Zelretch's ability literally calls the world having limited lifespan... And infinite timelines of the universe =/= timelines of the human universe.

Well first the feat of Kiara sending the servant to Norsehad Nebula (tamamo/Nameless/Nero or Gilgamesh) is not the same as Gilgamesh leaving Moon cell in the end of the game to go to Golden city. (In first this planet is not on Norsehead Nebula but close to it). Kiara at this moment in time is inside the moon cell in one of the conceptual universe (which i tell you but being a conceptual universe/galaxy doesn't make is a false. The best exemple is Servant Universe)

Like i tell before telling timeline/parrallele world are only Earth is impossible. Servant universe is a parrallele world. Where a being of the old universe wake up after the Universe update. Even here the universe is called a conceptual universe. Yet S.Ishtar is a real galaxy (She is the Milky Way).


So anyways i'm going to deny the Extella scan because Fate grand order and even your own scan before this one tell it (Gilgamesh taking the mc in another planet in your own scan happen in a timeline/possibility/route so you counter yourself on this one).

And the real world having only one universe wuth only earth timeline is already counter by having the outer god universe existing and the universe of the mecha god existing. And that these universe still exist on the different timeline (in each timeline the greek god go from their universe to our because their universe was destroyed). Servant universe wouldn't possible. Ort existing in the Lb lostbelt wouldn't be possible.

And having finite energy wouldn't let the existence of Tiamat be possible. She a being who volume is infinite. You can't make infinite volume being with finite energy.




The Starlog wouldn't be able to exist as it's an infinite sized conceptual universe that hold the record of Earth memory.


The Starlog exists within a "deep, endless darkness", as a conceptual universe. A domain which the lifeforms on Earth do not recall, with laws which are yet out of reach from humanity's observation. A hollow, the infinite whilst smallest, reaching into the furthest depths of space. Looking similar to constellations, the lights of the Starlog that shine within the darkness are the Logs: Constellations, interconnected memories of all life that has been born and perished on the planet. Though an infinity of stars may release their light, their density and time is insufficient in lighting up the infinite extent that the universe possesses. The universe seen from earth is but a mere 13.8 billion light-years of information. One cannot illuminate the dark, cold universe with a light source of only that degree.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I'm gonna have to agree with Paul here.

The translation argument in OP turned out to not have mattered at all, even without debunking any translations it's super easy to see that the layers argument doesn't make any sense. In particular, I don't get why they would use the word for spatial dimensions when talking about what is essencially different floors, aye? It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Also, here are some extra statements about characters possessing infinite energy or infinite power. The solar system argument has been debated for years at this point, no use going over it now.

 

[Migue79]

For the Tiamat scan that Regidian posted, here’s a translation of it:

Height/Weight:160 cm ~ 74000000 km²・??kg
Source: Ancient Mesopotamian Mythology
Region: Mesopotamia
Alignment: Chaotic ・ Evil
Gender: Female
The black mud is also included in Tiamat’s height. However, the mud is made of imaginary numbers, so her weight is unquantifiable.
Meanwhile, Tiamat’s volume is infinite. In other words, she is a four-dimensional pocket.

 

[Firestorm808]

Please refrain from making these long back-and-forth posts. We're still trying to get everything organized for easy access and understanding for other staff.

@Deagonx
I suggest we start with defining the foundational Real World Characteristics before we get into the Moon Cell mechanics and its simulations.

 

[Deagonx]

I suggest we start with defining the foundational Real World Characteristics before we get into the Moon Cell mechanics and its simulations.

That's probably ideal.

The scans about the Quantum Time Lock seem to pretty clearly and deliberately establish a limited amount of timelines. It also speaks to a limited amount of energy, but that contradicts with other scans that describe infinite energy. Not sure what to make of it. I tend to be inclined towards the Quantum Time Lock scan because it's not just a single off statement using the word infinity, it very concretely established a limitation and mechanism for solving it, so that is pretty serious to me.

 

[Firestorm808]

To my understanding, The Real World "permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history."

However, "unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe."

So, Timelines "are culled so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy."

Basically, it could grow to such an amount, but if there are too many active timelines, The Real World would die.

 

[Deagonx]

Yes, exactly. This was Paul's rebuttal to it:

Extella's materials and the Altera route intro specifically state that its the propagation (creating more of) worlds, specifically of dead end worlds which are useless and distinct from the "tree of time", and lack the ability to produce viable worlds themselves. If it's explicitly stated that the propagation or proliferation of these is the problem, then the initial amount being infinite, as FGO, CCC and FSN have all told us, is not clashing with this statement and both can coexist. This means that any amount of pruning wouldn't reduce the total amount under infinite

If you ignore that for some reason, then that statement is simply the outlier, as it's contested by multiple statements made at multiple points over the years, and thus its the inconsistent one, either way results in it not actually proving there aren't infinite timelines. Just for the heck of it, some more stuff showing there are infinite timelines

However, that does not seem logical to me. If the initial amount is infinite, it seems impossible that the addition of more would somehow exhaust the universe. I would be more inclined to think that the ideal reconciliation of that information is that it's not truly infinite, but can be described as infinite because of this information:

The Real World "permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history."

 

[Regidian]

To my understanding, The Real World "permits the birth of unlimited possibilities, numerous adjacent worlds, and divergent developments of history."

However, "unrestricted propagation of this process would exhaust the lifespan of the universe."

So, Timelines "are culled so as to prevent the needless expenditure of energy."

Basically, it could grow to such an amount, but if there are too many active timelines, The Real World would die.

I just want to tell but while Quantum time lock cull the timeline to prevent the needless expenditure of enerfy, these timeline still "exist" in some way. The best example are the lostbelt whose timeline got erased by Quantum time lock but then got anchored way later in the real world by Lostbelt Tree.

 

[Migue79]

I tend to be inclined towards the Quantum Time Lock scan because it's not just a single off statement using the word infinity, it very concretely established a limitation and mechanism for solving it, so that is pretty serious to me.

If I may respectfully interject here... the original LN of Fate/Stay Night also establishes a decently explanation to infinite parallel worlds existing and it being a core aspect of why the final fight of Heaven's Feel played out the way it did (with the scene even pointing out the difference between seemingly infinite vs. actually infinite). So the infinite statements aren't 'one off' as you're saying.

Here is the full scene for context... The stamped minute to minute 1:23:00. Minute 1:18:00 says that Sakura's magical supply is seemingly infinite, and minute 1:22:24 establishes literal infinite magic supply for Rin with the infinite parallel worlds. Rin uses something called Zelretch's Jewel Sword to extract mana from parallel worlds for context.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yes, exactly. This was Paul's rebuttal to it:

However, that does not seem logical to me. If the initial amount is infinite, it seems impossible that the addition of more would somehow exhaust the universe. I would be more inclined to think that the ideal reconciliation of that information is that it's not truly infinite, but can be described as infinite because of this information:

I was under the impression that the beginning of time started with 1 timeline that branched off. It has the potential to reach infinity, but the culling prevents this.

Culled off Timelines eventually cease to exist, leaving the current number of active timelines as finite.

 

[Deagonx]

If I may respectfully interject here... the original LN of Fate/Stay Night also establishes a decently explanation to infinite parallel worlds existing and it being a core aspect of why the final fight of Heaven's Feel played out the way it did (with the scene even pointing out the difference between seemingly infinite vs. actually infinite). So the 'infinite' statements aren't one off as you're saying.

Here is the full scene for context... The stamped minute to minute 1:23:00. Minute 1:18:00 says that Sakura's magical supply is seemingly infinite, and minute 1:22:24 establishes literal infinite magic supply for Rin with the infinite parallel worlds. Rin uses something called Zelretch's Jewel Sword to extract mana from parallel worlds for context.

Yeah, I think this is a good example of how the verse tends to play fast and loose with the word "infinite" and use it in a practical rather than literal sense.

"Matou Sakura's stock of magical energy reaches a trillion. As it cannot be used within a lifetime, it can be called an infinite supply."

Then it talks about Rin being able to match her by repeatedly drawing mana into the sword from the same individual cavern, over and over again, from "one of the infinite parallel worlds."

But as we can see above, Sakura's infinite magical supply isn't actually infinite, so why not the same for these parallel worlds? The text then says "If your supply is inexhaustible, mine is limitless!" But this doesn't necessarily mean that the timelines are infinite, because the various possibilities will continue to branch off and never stop, so even if they are eventually culled by the Quantum Time Lock, Rin will always have new possibilities to draw mana from.

I was under the impression that the beginning of time started with 1 timeline that branched off. It has the potential to reach infinity, but the culling prevents this.

Culled off Timelines eventually cease to exist, leaving the current number of active timelines as finite.

Yeah, I agree.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'll butt in. I have a problem. Zelretch with his Kaleidoscope does not interject with parallel earths but with ACTUAL timelines. These are two separate things. Moon cell and or a singular universe concerns itself with many parallel earths and there are also completely separate timelines of the UNIVERSE. Those can be infinite in number but have nothing to do with the parallel earths which a singular universe CANNOT contain an infinite amount of due to finite energy.

 

[Deagonx]

a singular universe concerns itself with many parallel earths and there are also completely separate timelines of the UNIVERSE. Those can be infinite in number but have nothing to do with the parallel earths which a singular universe CANNOT contain an infinite amount of due to finite energy.

Your claim is that a single universe has parallel earths, which are finite due to QTL, but that there are infinite timelines that encompass the entire universe, which are infinite? That doesn't appear to be supported by the evidence at all. The Quantum Time Lock scans refer to possibilities of the universe.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Your claim is that a single universe has parallel earths, which are finite due to QTL, but that there are infinite timelines that encompass the entire universe, which are infinite? That doesn't appear to be supported by the evidence at all. The Quantum Time Lock scans refer to possibilities of the universe.

I should've worded it better. I meant infinite timelines as in just standard universe timeline stuff. Then these timelines basically completely independent of each other can create or hold a countless amount of parallel earths. Nasuverse cosmology is confusing.

 

[Deagonx]

I should've worded it better. I meant infinite timelines as in just standard universe timeline stuff. Then these timelines basically completely independent of each other can create or hold a countless amount of parallel earths. Nasuverse cosmology is confusing.

I don't really see any evidence of that being the case.