Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Aight, i have a question
Everyone knows Rokka? Ok, i assume she is from a parallel world where chaldea failed to stop ORT
So.....ORT devoured all her servants
and likely screwed up the throne of heroes as well.
Now, if that is the case, how are we still able to summon OUR servants? Since there is only one throne of heroes, wouldn't that mean we can't resummon our servants either? OR it is a plot hole?

 

[Maxeez]

Oh I know. Shiki's goated, but the rest aren't that good. Hence why I don't like it that much

Yeah, though it personally doesn't bother me when they fill their function, in this case being an addition to Shiki's character.

I said arguably. But I can't really think of a single Nasuverse character that's even remotely as good as him

Well, Johan isn't that "complex" while still being layered and basically the center point of Monster's plot.
Though, Shiki massively outplays him in the complexity/depth area (mostly psyche) and is very much layered too as she benefits from the multiple dynamics she has with the other characters. Not to mention the symbols, the (visual) characterization, etc.
Using these criteria, Manaka also shines bright as her quality comes from the same type of things (symbolism through command seals, fleshed out dynamics, and her role as the "judge of humanity").

 

[Maxeez]

Feels weird to discuss character quality on this site ngl .

 

[LehenDuo]

Aight, i have a question
Everyone knows Rokka? Ok, i assume she is from a parallel world where chaldea failed to stop ORT
So.....ORT devoured all her servants
and likely screwed up the throne of heroes as well.
Now, if that is the case, how are we still able to summon OUR servants? Since there is only one throne of heroes, wouldn't that mean we can't resummon our servants either? OR it is a plot hole?

The whole thing about screwing up the throne is Kadoc conjecture, and even then, he only refers to the data of the specific HS, not of damage to the throne as a whole.

Someone has gone into details about this.
TL;DR - Throne is all fine and dandy, ORT goes Majin Buu on Servants but can't actually digest them anyway. ORT is a thief that has to always carry whatever he stole - ORT is killed, the data he stole goes back.

 

[Tdjwo]

Yeah, though it personally doesn't bother me when they fill their function, in this case being an addition to Shiki's character.

Well, Johan isn't that "complex" while still being layered and basically the center point of Monster's plot.
Though, Shiki massively outplays him in the complexity/depth area (mostly psyche) and is very much layered too as she benefits from the multiple dynamics she has with the other characters. Not to mention the symbols, the (visual) characterization, etc.
Using these criteria, Manaka also shines bright as her quality comes from the same type of things (symbolism through command seals, fleshed out dynamics, and her role as the "judge of humanity").

I think Araya and Touko aren't too bad as characters as well. They could compete with Johan in complexity tbh. But Shiki clears in woting and complexity.

 

[Maxeez]

I think Araya and Touko aren't too bad as characters as well. They could compete with Johan in complexity tbh. But Shiki clears in woting and complexity.

Idk about them toping him in that area. While not being his strong point, he's still complex enough to put some characters to shame.
I feel like characters like Oberon or Arjuna Alter could easily argued to be better than Johan on multiple aspects, starting from characterization alone.
Can think of Kirei too, of course, bro is too good to be true and peaks much higher than Johan does.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

The whole thing about screwing up the throne is Kadoc conjecture, and even then, he only refers to the data of the specific HS, not of damage to the throne as a whole.

Someone has gone into details about this.
TL;DR - Throne is all fine and dandy, ORT goes Majin Buu on Servants but can't actually digest them anyway. ORT is a thief that has to always carry whatever he stole - ORT is killed, the data he stole goes back.

so ORT screwed up only our iteration of the servants , not the heroic spirits in the throne?

 

[Tarang123]

Well, Johan isn't that "complex" while still being layered and basically the center point of Monster's plot.
Though, Shiki massively outplays him in the complexity/depth area (mostly psyche) and is very much layered too as she benefits from the multiple dynamics she has with the other characters. Not to mention the symbols, the (visual) characterization, etc.
Using these criteria, Manaka also shines bright as her quality comes from the same type of things (symbolism through command seals, fleshed out dynamics, and her role as the "judge of humanity").

Eh, yes he is. I'd recommend reading Monster again cause he's quite the complex character. Deceptively interesting is how I view him. He originally seems to be the devil incarnate, but by the end your views on him completely change.

Shiki doesn't take either complexity nor depth from what I remember from the novel. She was great and all, but I don't see her topping the nihilism, psychological depth, and the complexity of Johan. But agree to disagree

 

[Tarang123]

I think Araya and Touko aren't too bad as characters as well. They could compete with Johan in complexity tbh. But Shiki clears in woting and complexity.

Neither of those two characters are as complex as he is and Shiki imo doesn't have nearly the same level of psychological depth as Johan does

 

[BoastJr]

so ORT screwed up only our iteration of the servants , not the heroic spirits in the throne?

its like this.

Servants = Cash

Throne of Heroes = Bank

Ort = Thief

So the Thief (ORT) stole from the Bank(Throne of heroes) but later that Cash (Servants) is returned to the Bank (Throne of Heroes)

 

[Maxeez]

Eh, yes he is. I'd recommend reading Monster again cause he's quite the complex character. Deceptively interesting is how I view him. He originally seems to be the devil incarnate, but by the end your views on him completely change.

Shiki doesn't take either complexity nor depth from what I remember from the novel. She was great and all, but I don't see her topping the nihilism, psychological depth, and the complexity of Johan. But agree to disagree

What I meant by complex is the journey he goes through and emotional depth, which Shiki explores far more than Johan.
Both are what I call « Symbolic Characters » but Shiki has the upper hand when it comes to characterization and layers alone.

Shiki imo doesn't have nearly the same level of psychological depth as Johan does

Can’t agree with that ngl, I’ve never seen a character with a more complex psyche ever before. But yeah let’s agree to disagree.

 

[Tdjwo]

Shiki's existence itself is built on how complex she is. Being the personality of Akasha, she is bound to be complex as hell.

 

[Tarang123]

Shiki's existence itself is built on how complex she is. Being the personality of Akasha, she is bound to be complex as hell.

That doesn’t really make any sense, but I won’t push the topic much further

 

[Tdjwo]

That doesn’t really make any sense,

Why not?

 

[Tarang123]

What I meant by complex is the journey he goes through and emotional depth, which Shiki explores far more than Johan.
Both are what I call « Symbolic Characters » but Shiki has the upper hand when it comes to characterization and layers alone.

Can’t agree with that ngl, I’ve never seen a character with a more complex psyche ever before. But yeah let’s agree to disagree.

I mean, it’s a bit strange to expect some huge emotional journey from a character whose backstory is related to him having his emotions forcefully removed.

His emotional depth is more subtle imo as it’s often not done directly. It’s more indirect and how you can connect the dots through other explanations. Like how Grimmer explaining that monsters aren’t just emotionless and suffer quite a bit psychologically makes it easy to connect that to Johan.

Shiki is the protagonist of KnK, so obviously she has to be empathetic. Johan’s an enigma. You aren’t supposed to care for him but to figure him out

 

[Tarang123]

Why not?

Because those two things don’t connect the way you want them to. Being the “personality” of another “character” doesn’t somehow mean she’s going to be really complex. That makes zero sense

 

[Tdjwo]

Because those two things don’t connect the way you want them to. Being the “personality” of another “character” doesn’t somehow mean she’s going to be really complex. That makes zero sense

A personality can be complex. I don't really understand what you mean. Shiki and Akasha are more or less the same even without her 3rd personality interfering. Most of Shiki's characterization is influenced by the Root.

 

[Tarang123]

A personality can be complex. I don't really understand what you mean. Shiki and Akasha are more or less the same even without her 3rd personality interfering. Most of Shiki's characterization is influenced by the Root.

Can be complex. They aren't automatically complex. I'm not saying Shiki isn't complex. She absolutely is. I'm saying that just because she's Akasha's personality (or something like that) doesn't automatically make her a complex character. Those two things don't really connect. It's not a causal relationship.

 

[Maxeez]

I mean, it’s a bit strange to expect some huge emotional journey from a character whose backstory is related to him having his emotions forcefully removed.

That's true. However emotional depth and character journey is mostly what makes a character complex and Johan lacks it, even if he shines in other areas (like a "Symbolic Character", as I like to call them).

His emotional depth is more subtle imo as it’s often not done directly. It’s more indirect and how you can connect the dots through other explanations. Like how Grimmer explaining that monsters aren’t just emotionless and suffer quite a bit psychologically makes it easy to connect that to Johan.

It's indeed subtle, but the fact that it is not very much fleshed out in other ways than just being mentionned by other characters is enough to say that he lacks on that aspect compared to someone like Shiki whose concept basically revolves around her psyche.

Shiki is the protagonist of KnK, so obviously she has to be empathetic.

Shiki actually started by being emotionless and cold. Her character started to change when she met and fell in love with Mikiya with her actually caring about him to the point they had a child. Not to mention the other characters as well.

Johan’s an enigma. You aren’t supposed to care for him but to figure him out

Yes, hence why I said :

basically the center point of Monster's plot.

He fits his position as a symbol really well but so does Shiki, who also has her progression as a "human character" which makes her comfortably better imo.

 

[Tarang123]

That's true. However emotional depth and character journey is mostly what makes a character complex and Johan lacks it, even if he shines in other areas (like a "Symbolic Character", as I like to call them).

That's not at all true and I explained why later. You can't really use development and emotional stuff on an antagonist. That doesn't really make sense. Johan, as an antagonist, doesn't need to develop. His depth is what makes him good.

It's indeed subtle, but the fact that it is not very much fleshed out in other ways than just being mentionned by other characters is enough to say that he lacks on that aspect compared to someone like Shiki whose concept basically revolves around her psyche.

It is fleshed out. The point is that it does it through more indirect methods by letting us come to that conclusion. The reason they don't go out of their way to make him seem like some tragic character is because he's the main villain of the story. He's supposed to be terrifying, not sad. He becomes sad once you finish it and think about his character. That isn't at all a good argument against him.

Shiki actually started by being emotionless and cold. Her character started to change when she met and fell in love with Mikiya with her actually caring about him to the point they had a child. Not to mention the other characters as well.

The point is that she has to capture our feelings. We have to care about her because she's the protagonist. Not that has to be super emotional or whatever

He fits his position as a symbol really well but so does Shiki, who also has her progression as a "human character" which makes her comfortably better imo.

That doesn't make much sense. Her having progression in her character as a protagonist shouldn't be a deciding factor over another character who also has that. Johan's journey is re-attaining his humanity and regaining his existence. That's his journey (hence why Monster ends the way it does).

While KnK goes quite in-depth into Shiki's psyche, I don't think it's a fair comparison to a story fundamentally based on delving into this man's psychology. It's two entirely different playing fields. Addressing psychology to make a layered and complex character and structuring a story specifically about a character's psychology give two different results. Hence why I think Johan is by far the better character.

But I'll just try understanding your argument:

-Johan lacks an emotional core (depth as you put it) while Shiki has plenty
-Shiki has better development as a "human character"


Those were the two main ones apart from some throwaway stuff like how Shiki was more layered (disagree with that) and how she was more complex (definitely disagree with that).

I'll just address them concisely:

-Johan's emotional core isn't supposed to be as blatant because he's the main antagonist of the story and is supposed to be intimidating. It's still there, but not as blatant as with someone like Shiki due to the different roles they play. It's a complete non-factor when comparing different characters.
-Johan's entire journey leads up to him regaining his humanity, and the story itself progresses towards the conclusion that Johan is human like other people. It doesn't develop him in the sense that you can feel a tangible change within Johan, but the perception of Johan from this inhuman monster to something far more human is done in a better manner, just due to the types of characters being dealt with.

 

[LehenDuo]

Shiki is complex, I can't think of any way of denying this.

But the way Nasu uses and develops this complexity is the unique thing in KNK. At least in my opinion, she's used not exactly as a protagonist, in a way, even though the story is about her. It's like science fiction using robots to question about humans and humanity. A character that is different enough that it is something apart from humans while being a human - add to that the inherent existential search for meaning of a character that lacks the very "directional impulse" that gives it existence meaning, but somehow was awoken and forced to exist.

Her depth in a certain way is = how deep you allowed itself to question your own existence. How far are you willing to question this "Garden of Sinners" that is human civilization.

Nasu does make some really ??????????? dialogues sometimes, but when you are actually willing to engage with the questions proposed, you can see they are actually very meaningful. The best example of this in my opinion will always be Kokotou & Tohko "licenses and contracts"

A contract. Weakly uttering her reply, Touko-san picked up the glasses on the bedside table.

Normally, she seems so sinister that one doesn't quite notice that she is a beautiful woman, but the current Touko-san, who was suffering from a cold, was so gentle and pretty that you could think she was someone else.

In order to clear her still drowsy consciousness, Touko-san keeps talking.

"That, you see, is a contract saying you have mastered driving. It says that you have learnt something important, but the objective has changed. In this country, it's no longer a matter of getting a qualification as a result of learning, but learning in order to get the qualification. When you obtain the qualification, what you learnt loses its meaning. A qualification which has degraded to merely being evidence saying 'I have learnt this much' is like a contract."

KNK is Nasu's open question of "What are Humans? What Humans do?", the story is there to hide it in plain sight. It's expected, given he graduated Human Sciences, in a way.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

He’s from comicvine. Low end interpretations for everything

Isn't that space battles those mfs don't care about higher dimensional stuff at all its pretty funny to watch them argue who vs who because they downplay everything, like literally every verse

Not too long ago, Tony_di_bugalu’s comment was deleted for pointing out that the thread should be closed & concluded due to staff disagreements.

 

[Tarang123]

Isn't that space battles those mfs don't care about higher dimensional stuff at all its pretty funny to watch them argue who vs who because they downplay everything, like literally every verse

They do use things like dimensional tiering. They just lowball the hell out of all other things.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

KNK is Nasu's open question of "What are Humans? What Humans do?", the story is there to hide it in plain sight. It's expected, given he graduated Human Sciences, in a way.

The beauty of nasu's writing

For people who argue that Zeus used his full power

Didn't Zeus like say he didn't get a chance to use his full power lel

Completely off topic, why is Gilgamesh so downplayed by people discussing Nasuverse?

Probably because he hasn't been as relevant as he used to be in fgo for example

He only really evolved into a chad in Fate Zero onwards

Man fate zero gilgamesh is a pure Chad, and fate strange fake too.

Gil has always been a Chad from day 1

I ******* detest fate stay night gil
Fate zero Gil>strange fake Gil>Babylonia singularity Gil>ccc gilgamesh>everything else>fsn gil

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

They do use things like dimensional tiering. They just lowball the hell out of all other things.

I haven't seen them use dimensional tiering tbh, but I've seen insane wanks in comicvine they sometimes even treat omnipotence as something that actually exists in fiction and use it to argue one character being above the other

 

[Tarang123]

Shiki is complex, I can't think of any way of denying this.

But the way Nasu uses and develops this complexity is the unique thing in KNK. At least in my opinion, she's used not exactly as a protagonist, in a way, even though the story is about her. It's like science fiction using robots to question about humans and humanity. A character that is different enough that it is something apart from humans while being a human - add to that the inherent existential search for meaning of a character that lacks the very "directional impulse" that gives it existence meaning, but somehow was awoken and forced to exist.

Her depth in a certain way is = how deep you allowed itself to question your own existence. How far are you willing to question this "Garden of Sinners" that is human civilization.

Nasu does make some really ??????????? dialogues sometimes, but when you are actually willing to engage with the questions proposed, you can see they are actually very meaningful. The best example of this in my opinion will always be Kokotou & Tohko "licenses and contracts"


KNK is Nasu's open question of "What are Humans? What Humans do?", the story is there to hide it in plain sight. It's expected, given he graduated Human Sciences, in a way.

Yeah, KnK is quite a bit about the nature of man, the value of life and death, and humanity itself. And Shiki absolutely is a complex character. The psychology involved with the inner conflict between her multiple personalities, the feelings of love she gains throughout the story, and the constant struggle between her value of life and her natural bloodlust is extremely well executed.

I said that I don't think she's complex just because she's connected to the Root. That doesn't seem like it makes sense. I believe I even said this. I don't think being connected to the Root automatically makes a character complex. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

 

[Tarang123]

Man fate zero gilgamesh is a pure Chad, and fate strange fake too.

Fate Zero Gil is one of the best characters Nasu has ever written. Everything about him works.

I ******* detest fate stay night gil
Fate zero Gil>strange fake Gil>Babylonia singularity Gil>ccc gilgamesh>everything else>fsn gil

Fairly accurate. FSN Gil's like a 5/10.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Can we just agree this is a subjective topi-

 

[Tdjwo]

Can we all agree that they are better written than any DKD or Umineko character?

 

[Tarang123]

Can we just agree this is a subjective topi-

It is absolutely subjective. It's just that saying stuff like "Johan's character lacks in complexity" is a pretty dumb thing to say. But yeah, comparing the quality of writing between different fictional verses is lame anyway.

Besides, Beatrice from Umineko probably negs both verses in writing anyway

 

[Ubdon]

Can we just agree this is a subjective topi-

No, everyone has right to cook.

 

[Ubdon]

Can we all agree that they are better written than any DKD or Umineko character?

Did you just put DKD and Umineko on the same level or did I miss something?

 

[Tdjwo]

Did you just put DKD and Umineko on the same level or did I miss something?

Both are kinda snorefest materials. Especially DkD. So boring and made solely for battleboarding.

 

[Tarang123]

Can we all agree that they are better written than any DKD or Umineko character?

Have you read Umineko? You make it seem like Umineko's characters suck when they really don't.

 

[Tarang123]

Both are kinda snorefest materials. Especially DkD. So boring and made solely for battleboarding.

Huge L take. DkD is pretty bad, but Umineko is universally considered one of the best VNs out there. For good reason too. It's a slow burner, but you shouldn't go around trying to slander the actual merits of its writing just because it didn't suit your tastes.

 

[Tdjwo]

Have you read Umineko? You make it seem like Umineko's characters suck when they really don't.

Huge L take. DkD is pretty bad, but Umineko is universally considered one of the best VNs out there. For good reason too. It's a slow burner, but you shouldn't go around trying to slander the actual merits of its writing just because it didn't suit your tastes.

Not once did I ever claim either series were bad. I simply said that they were snorefest materials which means they were boring asf. I completed the Umineko manga which I found just ok at best. I couldn't get into the VN tbh. DkD has a very self insert fantasy crap that didn't even let me give it much chance to read. DkD was meh but Umineko was ok but boring.

 

[Tarang123]

Not once did I ever claim either series were bad. I simply said that they were snorefest materials which means they were boring asf. I completed the Umineko manga which I found just ok at best. I couldn't get into the VN tbh. DkD has a very self insert fantasy crap that didn't even let me give it much chance to read. DkD was meh but Umineko was ok but boring.

The manga isn't very good apart from its god tier ending. DkD is garbage. Umineko's VN is something you do have to give time. If you do there's a solid payoff.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

To a different topic, Old Moriarty vs Takasugi, both have a prep time (since Takasugi NP requires some of resource and prep from what i read), who win?

 

[LehenDuo]

Didn't Zeus like say he didn't get a chance to use his full power lel

It goes beyond that even - Zeus is using said "power" to maintain both the Fantasy Tree and Olympus. So, if Zeus ever go full power, both of these wouldn't have their power source anymore.

 

[LehenDuo]

I said that I don't think she's complex just because she's connected to the Root. That doesn't seem like it makes sense. I believe I even said this. I don't think being connected to the Root automatically makes a character complex. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Oh, yeah, the fact by itself wouldn't make her necessarily complex.
But the choices Nasu made of what would be the consequences of it, and how they were developed in the story I believe are.