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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
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Lostbelt 7 is in the 25th.
Ashiya Douman had no love for humanity, so he couldn't become a Beast.
Goetia was pained by the suffering he viewed through his clairvoyance and he wanted to end it, so he wanted to reboot the entire timeline of the planet so that it no longer has a concept of death.
Tiamat loves her children like a mother, but she didn't want them to grow so independent of her that she becomes useless. Her love is also why she was nerfing herself and why she was Talk no Jutsu'd by Ritsuka.
Kama hates humanity and views them as pathetic, so she thinks that they should just fall into depravity, and she wants to force her 'love' onto them to corrupt them. She is unable to love herself, but she loves anything but herself.
Kiara is the embodiment of narcissism and self-love. She views humanity in general as unworthy and no better than wild beasts, so she declared herself as the only true human, and she wants all love to be directed towards her and for her to be worshipped as a savior.
Koyanskaya hates humanity for destroying nature, but she also loves humans as exotic animals who are part of nature, and she doesn't care if they go extinct like many species did. She likes to express her love through predation and taming, and enjoys having beasts survive in the wild so she wouldn't like humans to be reduced to defanged livestock. She agreed to travel to space towards an other planet because she wants to stop hating humanity.
"In EXTRA and CCC, she is about the only one who is “Capable of defeating Konjiki Hakumen (Golden White Face), no matter how small the chance might be."
This would include Kiara, and Saver whom Kiara would be forced to flee from.
Amaterasu can beat BB whose stats are immeasurable, and FGO mentions that Amaterasu's power becomes immeasurable once she receives her nine tails.
FGO also mentions that Amaterasu becomes able to destroy the Trichiliocosm, which in Nasuspeak is an other word for 'multiverse' with separate timelines and parallel worlds.
We can get fixated on old specific numbers that are disconnected from feats such as Bellerophon's charge having a maximum speed of 400-500 km/h and Servants being 10-50 times stronger/faster than regular humans. Or we can go with feat consistency and more recent statements.
In the Tsukihime remake, Kiara is confirmed to be a member of the Burial Agency, and Roa recounts a story about her; she demonized to acquire a higher dimensional perspective and become more powerful than those of lower dimensions, but she decided to continue living as a human after witnessing how immensely weak and insignificant she is in the True Demon hierarchy.
You can have a True Demon in the top 5 strongest characters, and Kiara can still be weaker than Amaterasu.
I agree that some True Demons are comparable to the Outer Gods. But the same entry also defines True Demons as higher dimensional beings from a non-human planet/civilization, and DDD mentions that in medical terms "they are aliens". So for all we know not all of them are Outer God level.
Beasts candidates need to love humanity to qualify; the norm is that they have a twisted forms of love that would end human civilization. Some of them simultaneously hate and love humanity, but they need to love them to qualify as a Beast.
Ashiya Douman had no love for humanity, so he couldn't become a Beast.
Goetia was pained by the suffering he viewed through his clairvoyance and he wanted to end it, so he wanted to reboot the entire timeline of the planet so that it no longer has a concept of death.
Tiamat loves her children like a mother, but she didn't want them to grow so independent of her that she becomes useless. Her love is also why she was nerfing herself and why she was Talk no Jutsu'd by Ritsuka.
Kama hates humanity and views them as pathetic, so she thinks that they should just fall into depravity, and she wants to force her 'love' onto them to corrupt them. She is unable to love herself, but she loves anything but herself.
Kiara is the embodiment of narcissism and self-love. She views humanity in general as unworthy and no better than wild beasts, so she declared herself as the only true human, and she wants all love to be directed towards her and for her to be worshipped as a savior.
Koyanskaya hates humanity for destroying nature, but she also loves humans as exotic animals who are part of nature, and she doesn't care if they go extinct like many species did. She likes to express her love through predation and taming, and enjoys having beasts survive in the wild so she wouldn't like humans to be reduced to defanged livestock. She agreed to travel to space towards an other planet because she wants to stop hating humanity.
Here is the translated profile, which was translated years before this argument:
| Berserker (White) [Servant?] Berserker is the second Servant you end up fighting during the fourth round. Her master is Monji Gatou. She is a Funny Vamp [localized as Temptress] with tousled blond hair and crimson eyes. She is a fan service character. Technically not a wizard, she is just some strange creature that Gatou brought along from Earth. Sometimes a cat, sometimes Yuzu-nee, sometimes a silicon creature, Berserker is a princess that doesn’t seem to have a proper place in the game. She desperately awaits a redesign. Incidentally, in the world of EXTRA where the information world (digital) takes precedence over the physical world, she is no longer the strongest. This is because in the information world legend becomes reality, and natural phenomena that have been incarnated as “Gods” can often hold more power than their original natural existence does. Well even with that being said, if Berserker regained her sanity she would easily be considered a cheat-tier Servant. Her power, “The stage is the Moon, so all targets have their power reduced to a sixth of their usual.” would be extremely useful against other similar cheat-tier Servants. It’s a conceptual numerical alteration, so it is unavoidable when on the Moon. Even the Moon Cell transformed version of BB would be limited by it. In EXTRA and CCC, she is about the only one who is “Capable of defeating Konjiki Hakumen (Golden White Face), no matter how small the chance might be. |
"In EXTRA and CCC, she is about the only one who is “Capable of defeating Konjiki Hakumen (Golden White Face), no matter how small the chance might be."
This would include Kiara, and Saver whom Kiara would be forced to flee from.
If celestial objects like planets and even the Oort Cloud can have their own will and concepts, and Earth can create higher dimensional realms and infinite-sized Textures, then we simply don't have any metric to evaluate the sun.
Amaterasu can beat BB whose stats are immeasurable, and FGO mentions that Amaterasu's power becomes immeasurable once she receives her nine tails.
| Tamamo Cat When a demon fox gains a tail, its power will grow exponentially. When it becomes a nine-tailed demon fox, its power is immeasurable. |
FGO also mentions that Amaterasu becomes able to destroy the Trichiliocosm, which in Nasuspeak is an other word for 'multiverse' with separate timelines and parallel worlds.
| Tamamo-no-Mae A long time ago, you see, I had nine fluffy tails and would go around... ...causing havoc everywhere. The follies of youth, you understand I'll spare you the details, but eventually I became deeply, deeply repentant. I sealed away eight of my evil tails... and became a weak, one-tailed fox. Dr. Roman The famous story of the nine-tailed fox. I've never heard that she lost her tails, though. Tamamo-no-Mae I'd like to be stronger so that I can be of use to you, Master, but... Mash Is there a problem? Tamamo-no-Mae Yes, when I get stronger, I get more tails. But you see... When I get more tails, I become a very different sort of creature than I am now... Yes, I kind of... I become a great demon strong enough to destroy the multiverse. Dr. Roman Y-You get that strong? Tamamo-no-Mae Yes. Understand that this isn't an exaggeration. I become a great demon... ...that is an avatar of the apocalypse itself. |
| Trichiliocosm: EX A skill that would originally be treated as a Noble Phantasm. By exposing Suzuka Gozen’s favorite sword - the Kenmyouren - to the morning sun, it is possible to create and survey the trichiliocosm (all worlds, including parallel worlds) in the blade. ...Suzuka Gozen does not reveal what sort of meaning this has. If employed for a long period of time, her qualifications as a Heroic Spirit will be revoked. |
We can get fixated on old specific numbers that are disconnected from feats such as Bellerophon's charge having a maximum speed of 400-500 km/h and Servants being 10-50 times stronger/faster than regular humans. Or we can go with feat consistency and more recent statements.
Not all True Demons are equal.
In the Tsukihime remake, Kiara is confirmed to be a member of the Burial Agency, and Roa recounts a story about her; she demonized to acquire a higher dimensional perspective and become more powerful than those of lower dimensions, but she decided to continue living as a human after witnessing how immensely weak and insignificant she is in the True Demon hierarchy.
You can have a True Demon in the top 5 strongest characters, and Kiara can still be weaker than Amaterasu.
I agree that some True Demons are comparable to the Outer Gods. But the same entry also defines True Demons as higher dimensional beings from a non-human planet/civilization, and DDD mentions that in medical terms "they are aliens". So for all we know not all of them are Outer God level.
I mean even regular Gilgamesh has access to FTL spaceships.
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Finally found it
@CrystalValley here's the leak about the possibility of the Len that's gonna be in the Remake being the one from the original timeline. Like I said though we obviously have to wait until the DLC is released to confirm. Interestingly enough, this was also leaked before Len was even confirmed in the newest Boss Rush.
@CrystalValley here's the leak about the possibility of the Len that's gonna be in the Remake being the one from the original timeline. Like I said though we obviously have to wait until the DLC is released to confirm. Interestingly enough, this was also leaked before Len was even confirmed in the newest Boss Rush.
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Actually posted it earlier:
The new Melty Blood is an alternative timeline for Tsukihime, and there are crossovers between new Melty, old Melty, and FGO.
Not really conductive for arguing that we should split timelines and powerscaling.
There is commentary from Nasu hidden in Melty Blood Type Lumina's script, where he teases a crossover between old Tsukihime and the Tsukihime remake, and confirms that their characters fought each other in a tournament.
It is commentary to these lines about Mash and Neco Arc going on a journey to different worlds:
The reassuring presence:
/*-comment-
ＭＢvsＦateにしか見えないが、実は旧月姫（レン）vs月姫Ｒの戦いなのである
*/
/*-comment-
いつか、とっておきの時にお話しますので、
それまでお待ちください。
*/
\lIt only looks like MBvs Fate, but it's actually a battle between Old Tsukihime (Len) vs Tsukihime R.
I'll tell you about it someday, at a special time.
Please wait until then.
The new Melty Blood is an alternative timeline for Tsukihime, and there are crossovers between new Melty, old Melty, and FGO.
Not really conductive for arguing that we should split timelines and powerscaling.
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absolutely. and it coincides exactly with everything else. the other guy is arguing that this is wrong. not me.
this would not exclude Kiara or Saver. it says in this translation as well that Arcueid is about the only one. not the only one. again it directly excludes Amaterasu from the people capable of fighting Kiara.
creating concepts and laws shouldn't be related to the amount of power one can dish out. that's more so related to hax. when it comes to metaphysics as well there is no rule that says you need to have X amount of power to create a certain sized space. the planets are certainly multiversal in scale absolutely. but the creation of those realms weren't really achieved with power. a clear example is the Moon Cell. it undeniably shows planets galaxies and universes in it. it also has explicitly infinite sized realms. but the Moon Cell's actual raw power is compared to the sun, which is not infinite due to Amaterasu's power being equal to it. and she's only 43,046,721 stronger than One Tail Tamamo without the Mystic Code of the Sun obtained in the end game. despite this, power means little when you're a multiversal reality warping hax machine who clearly doesn't rely on that for the most part. but Kiara is also like this and should be even more busted since her existence is on a universal level and can manage the celestial bodies within them which are all their own distinct realities.
higher dimensions aren't actual higher levels of infinite power of course. that's now how Set Theory works and this website has got that all wrong. this is purely a battle boarder myth. so i won't really get into this since this isn't a Nasuverse specific issue.
Amaterasu being stated to be immeasurable doesn't really mean anything? i think you're assuming that Nasuverse and other fictions use these words in the way this website does. they don't. it either is just hyperbole to mean she's really powerful or perhaps that they don't have any device good enough to fully measure her power. the guidebook explicitly in great detail tells how how strong Amaterasu's raw power is. of course Amaterasu should be way stronger in conceptual space. but that's only in conceptual space and absolutely nothing indicates it would amp her to Kiara's universal level of power, which very well may be infinite outright depending on interpretations. then when you factor in that Kiara would also be amped in conceptual space and that Amaterasu does not have any known proper counters to her hax to the point she is excluded from the list of people who can fight her in Extra and you got yourself a mighty big stomp.
Amaterasu in conceptual space absolutely beats BB. Nine Tails Tamamo is equal to Amaterasu and she has hax capable of ignoring causality and resetting the Moon Cell. also Amaterasu's time axis movement shenanigans are a problem for BB who has much more limited manipulation on time. it's possible Amaterasu could outhax BB even outside of conceptual space. who knows? unfortunately for Amaterasu BB is nowhere near Kiara.
this is just more evidence that some old Nasuverse stuff completely does not fit with current lore. either this is Tamamo overhyping herself massively or this is just an outright contradiction to Extra. the guidebooks explicitly state she has power comparable to the Sun and is only 43,046,721 times stronger than someone who is mountain level physically at absolute high ball.
yeah. this is just canons straight up clashing with each other. Amaterasu's power is explicitly equal to the Sun which is equal to the Moon Cell in Extra. the Sun just has special authority over the Moon Cell per Karna's words in CCC when speaking of his armor. we are basically talking past each other by talking about two entirely contradicting series that do not properly co-exist with each other.
of course. Kaie after all created four of them by himself. but they shouldn't be unfathomable leagues apart considering Nasu seems to treat them as being in the same general league.
even in this it states she is on their level but on an extremely lower end level. she is still on the level of what is stated to be the top 3 and of universal power still. granted that top 3 statement was old canon. and this is the Remake. not sure how strong True Daemons are here but they seem to be around the same surprisingly which is nice. though for the current canon, Kiara Vs. Amaterasu is wonky because it doesn't follow Extra. as you can see with your GO statements contradicting entire guidebooks.
i never said they are Outer God level. I said the comparison of True Daemons to Outer Gods wasn't a comparison of power. and True Daemons were not compared to Nasuverse Outer Gods (which didn't even exist at the time of the statement IIRC) but to the actual Outer Gods written by Lovecraft. it was just a comparison of nature. Nasu was trying to draw parallels to the most similar thing in another fiction to let you have a better idea of what's going on. wasn't a power or battle comparison. True Daemons though should be massively above Nasuverse Outer Gods if memory serves. regardless i don't really see how it's too relevant here.
from my current reading of DDD, Kaie seems to say that True Daemons are imaginary and come from nothingness (nothingness seems to be a word for conceptual in DDD given the context). they seem to be from another realm entirely. likely Hell since such a place was mentioned in Prelude. as for the comparison to them and aliens from another planet. we aren't sure what type of aliens or civilization is being referred to. also not sure if it's a power/tier comparison. maybe though.
i know this wasn't directed towards me but Mash's old vs new statement is pretty vague. i think you're jumping to conclusions a bit. it's also been fairly obvious that Neco Arc was never canon for Old Tsukihime. it was just a joke side thing with its own gag routes and power levels all of the place. using it would get us disturbing stuff like Star Level MB cast which is just... no.
for power scaling, the Remake has some of the worst Nasuverse feats ever. it's impossible to reasonably scale it to the original series. i was taken aback by how weak it was actually.
edit: saw Violatas comment. my reply to him also should be relevant to the reply here.
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for some reason this didn't come up in my notifications.
interesting. also terrible. though if Neco Arc is involved in any capacity the canonicity is entirely in question for both sides. she's never been canon to old Tsukihime and this is common knowledge. not sure if it's the same for Remake. but all of this is needs to be confirmed first, so we'll wait and see.
and before anyone says Neco Arc and joke routes were canon to the OG Melty Blood. Melty Blood cast are not Star Busters. Melty Blood cast are not shaking Gaia. the maids are not superhuman. the power levels are not all over the place. all of this would be the case if such things were canon. just throwing out some common knowledge here.
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Is the argument here Nasuverse post CCC is a different continuity entirely? Haven't really been following the convo going on besides light skimming. Y'all have fun with that though lol.
Anyways, I did talk to Crystal about this before, but uhh
This site currently has peak Roa scaling to Archetype Earth when narratively, that version of Roa was beaten by normal Arcueid and Church members from a long ago era. Really surprised this got accepted and no one thought "wait a minute." Just thought I'd bring this up.
I'll probably make a thread correcting this laaaaaaaater but that'll be a hot minute since I'm on break from Nasuverse sans reading Mahoyo
Anyways, I did talk to Crystal about this before, but uhh
This site currently has peak Roa scaling to Archetype Earth when narratively, that version of Roa was beaten by normal Arcueid and Church members from a long ago era. Really surprised this got accepted and no one thought "wait a minute." Just thought I'd bring this up.
I'll probably make a thread correcting this laaaaaaaater but that'll be a hot minute since I'm on break from Nasuverse sans reading Mahoyo
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other people have actually asked if Nasuverse canons will be separated on here and have even recommended it. though the final answer was less of correcting them and more of just lowkey admitting that's too much work to separate them, which i can sympathize with.
as for the Roa thing, it's because this site has some inaccurate scaling of comparing Type-Moon to Archetype-Earth, even though he is explicitly compared to Red Arcueid in power with Archetype far surpassing Red Arcueid with her basic feats alone. since Prime Roa is objectively above Type-Moon with both feats and statements, he is by extension placed above Archetype as the strongest Nasuverse 1-C on the wiki currently. while i don't agree with half of these multiversal rating (for raw power at least i'm more ok with the idea of Types being multiversal reality warpers via hax), the main issue here is the Type-Moon and Archetype scaling. some of the ORT wank was corrected and removed in that CRT. perhaps its time to do the same with Type-Moon.
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Oh. I'd definitely say this should happen soon if most agree with it. Thought it'd be more controversial. Will lead to inaccurate scaling otherwise. Would take a minute to complete but nothing ventured nothing gained, yeah?
It should be fixed but maaaaaan I feel that'd 100% be controversial lol. You know how long they've been multi on this site? Then again, like you said, Crimson Moon has been compared to normal Arcueid plenty and given how Roa in story was beaten by her w/ help from the Church, not sure how one would argue against it unless we scale base Arc to Archetype Earth (which doesn't work). So IDK maybe a downgrade would get accepted.
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can't speak for an entire website. but i've seen it mentioned here and there without any noticeable opposition aside from Paul out of the blue. but normal people all around seem to accept this. at least in Tsukihime circles i've come across. not that majority opinion dictates truth or anything. but Paul was making out that this is some obscure view i made up when it's fairly common from what I've seen.
Red Arc can't be argued to be 1-C because she is literally just 100% full power Arcueid. and 30% is rated as Island Level here and people scaling above 100% Red Arc (Akiha and Nanaya) are still around that tier. there's no way a little over 3x increase goes from at least 6-C to 1-C. Gaia amps are its own thing and not her base power. and Type-Moon wouldn't have that anyways. Archetype has also stomped people scaling above Red Arcueid even ignoring all she can do so that is impossible. i generally consider Types to be in the continental range physically via a mountain of feats and scaling via Angel Notes and Melty Blood. but their edge is multiversal reality warping with hax since Type-Moon was somewhat compared to the Moon Cell and Types should embody and have full control over their respective celestial bodies. further implied since ORT can rewrite Gaia's entire reality with his own. so Type-Moon should be superior to Red Arcueid in regards to abilities. but it's blatantly clear his physical power is dead equal.
crazier shit has happened. there was a time this website for many years would insult and laugh at anyone rating Nasuverse at anything above solar system level and MFTL+. then in a very short time frame the verse went from 4-B to Low 2-C to 2-A to 1-C to some 1-A shit. the verse somehow went from being memed as a wanked fodder verse to surpassing this website's old heavy hitters like Umineko and Dies Irae before it was deleted. now here we are with a lot of 1-C immeasurable speed characters who shouldn't even be 1-C or multiversal at all and clearly have finite speed. crazy how times change.
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Honestly I think this is where some confusion comes from. I've seen plenty think "100%" Arcueid is referring to Archetype Earth when in reality, it's just her base at full power, with Archetype Earth being something else entirely. Even seen some scale Aoko to Archetype Earth in other places because of the whole "Arc actively avoids fighting her" thing.
Also cool to see someone else rank Shiki Tohno pretty high. I think he's underestimated because of that old Nasu statement about not standing a chance against Servants. Funny how this site acknowledges on Shiki's profile its contradicted, but only scales his speed to them.
Anyways, fun chat. Gonna sleep now. Almost 1 a.m
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Lostbelt 7 is in the 25th.
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Lets admit Nasu doesn't help in how they present the characters/personas.
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One thing 30% and 100% arc is never a 3x increase of power. I don't even know how do you think of it.
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i explicitly stated "a little over 3x" since 3x would be 90%.
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Except % was never ever showed to be linear. Even in term of feat it's not.
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...do you know what a percent is?
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@CrystalValley btw, how's that CRT coming along? Wanna make sure I drop by and hopefully it doesn't become another dead Melty thread 
.
Also asking since next year, I'm likely gonna be muuuuuch less active here
.Also asking since next year, I'm likely gonna be muuuuuch less active here
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As if non-sensical things like Toguro goind beyond 100% never happened...
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first, Chad Yu Yu Hakusho enjoyer.
second, just because another fiction does something stupid does not mean all fictions do. literally nothing supports 100% Arcueid being 1-C. Akiha surpasses her and is not 1-C. Tohno and Nanaya are not 1-C. Types and Angel Notes characters are explicitly in the continental ranges with raw physical power too who scale to around 100% Arcueid level. and if a character did break fundamental logic and math, there would be no way to feasibly discuss them since discussion takes place in the domain of logic. you cannot draw a logical conclusion from something illogical.
third, Toguro just was estimating his level of power the entire time. he did not illogically break math itself, he was just completely off in his estimations or even perhaps outright trolling considering he admitted to lying to Yusuke about his power percentage.
i honestly got sidetracked and haven't gotten around to it. i'm not active much on here. i don't know when or potentially even if i'll ever get around to it. shouldn't be controversial at all. just both too busy and too lazy to go around gathering scans.@CrystalValley btw, how's that CRT coming along? Wanna make sure I drop by and hopefully it doesn't become another dead Melty thread
Also asking since next year, I'm likely gonna be muuuuuch less active here
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yeah same here. i fixed the Tsukihime profiles enough to be passable (along with some side CRTs that were helpful like yours and hyper's), even if a lot more work is needed and the tiers and ratings are wrong along with 99% of the rest of the verse. that was really my main thing. i don't care about the profiles enough to go much further. not like any of it will be truly accurate in the end so it's whatever. i sometimes stick around here because it's interesting to debate characters within these made up tiering rules as a fun little game. it's more like having a little fun debating fan fiction versions of characters and fan fiction rules of a verse rather discussing the actual characters and using the actual rules of a verse. i go back and forth on being slightly active to inactive, but i will likely start getting a little less active over time again. busy and i feel i've had all my share of minor fun on the site at this point. was a neat little side thing for a while. i may still reply to direct questions asked towards me though on here which are pretty frequent. and if i see a major CRT of value by someone else i may comment. otherwise i'll likely be toning down the activity.
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Definitely feel ya. Also, imma go ahead and unfollow this thread for awhile. Feel VS has been dragging me away from other stuff I want to do
Also wanna say rn: even if we don't agree on Nasu stuff completely, was definitely fun discussing certain aspects with ya, and hey, we do agree on some stuff at least! And hope I never came across as aggressive on some threads and discussions we've had. This is all just dumb vs shenanigans at the end of the day.
But yeah, gonna unfollow this thread for the time being now
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Togashi is a master, what can I say
Let me just clarify something - I'm 100% on board with this. If anything, I think I am the one who ranks Nasuverse the lowest in power scaling as far as joule/watt-calc power potency and I just think the whole dimensional babble is a serious case of people speaking about things that do not make any sense/do not refer to anything objective so that it can be evaluated and measured.
Yes, because Nasuverse is mostly about concepts and stories clashing - Paper, Rock, Scissor but with 10 thousand options. Akiha's Origami, specially, is a a case that any attempt to measure will just lead to non-sense.
The problem here is that the Types don't even follow the same rules, LITERALLY. You can argue and use physical laws in HO, but they are things that are explictly no following them.
Using as example Ploys, that have a similar system in Tradition Protection. They don't have Endurance > Shotgun - they don't even recognize the shotgun shell as an attack even as it spatially "hits" its body.
Wait until you hear some of the dimension talk that happens around here /s
Following that logic, one of the inherent qualities of ME is that it cannot be measured (Aoko forming her circuit, that she describes as her blood vessels, in Mahou Tsukai). There, 30% doesn't make any sense if it refers to an immeasurable thing.
But going a bit further - who says that "acess to 100%" of her power translates to "attack potency 100%"? It may not be linear. There's nothing that suggests that.
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yeah. it's a complete misunderstanding only battle boarders and versus debater people in general have. dimensional tiering, cardinal tiering, whatever the hell one may call it is all a massive misuse of Set Theory applied to measuring the size of space in some vein attempt to determine who has more power by seeing who can blow up some bigger infinite sized realm, despite size measurements being the domain of Measure Theory where anything transfinite does not exist and how hax tend not to care either. to put it simply you cannot have more than infinite power or a bigger size of something above infinite. that's a complete misuse of Set Theory. no one in Nasuverse is transfinite. no one in fiction is transfinite or at least should be considered transfinite in a logical debate. using transfinite in such a way is inherently illogical. if a verse makes a seemingly illogical statement, attempts should be made to find a logical alternative interpretation to make the statement make sense. if not, then the next best thing is to try and ignore the statement. if the statement is too essential to the story to ignore, well you can't reasonably debate them then because debates require logical analysis. granted most fictions don't even mean to use higher dimensions in the way battle boarders think they work. Nasuverse is an example of this. and while i rate it as incredibly strong with several characters reaching multiversal power in either pure physical power or some form of reality warping/range of destruction, none of them are transfinite and most of the cast rated on here as multiversal aren't. hell i'd argue building level physicals for 90% of the Fate cast is reasonable. mountain level at absolute high-ball/borderline wank. generally around subsonic to in the supersonic ranges as well.
i'm just talking about in a purely physical stat comparison, Akiha is superior to full power Arcueid per statements and scaling and Nanaya is even more absurd, but neither have immeasurable speed or are 1-C. in terms of how an actual fight between Akiha and Arcueid would go down is questionable. they are several potential outcomes based on their respective abilities. it's actually one of the more interesting fights to think about when you really factor in everything. but there is really nothing nonsensical about Origami at all. i don't see how you came to that conclusion. it's just a good hax that is explained adequately in how it works without any issues.
you must remember that to an extent one must follow the laws of a reality they step forth in unless they can just flat out rewrite it like ORT. so while the laws of physics may operate differently in their realities, they seem to abide by them within Gaia. and in Gaia they should be around 100% Arcueid since that is who Type-Moon is equal to in raw strength. though I think he is superior when factoring in everything he should be capable of as a Type.
this raises another problem though that you're probably aware of. it's really hard to judge how strong some things are in terms of how much raw power they have if they are some physics ignoring crazy ass dudes to the point i can see just skipping a defined attack potency value entirely to focus on their abilities. though again, Types in specific while in Gaia seem to abide by physics to an extent. we at least know Type-Moon's exact raw power and it is compared to someone nowhere near multiversal without Gaia amps.
i'm well aware. but this isn't really relevant to Arcueid's power percentages which are pretty obviously related to physical stats. she is mostly a physical fighter after all despite some good hax here and there.
you talking about Ploys makes me wonder yet again why Alice doesn't have a page or Soujuurou.
except it can be measured. at most it cannot be measured through more mundane means, and that's a very key distinction. if it wasn't able to measured, Touko would not have attacks millions of times stronger than Aoko's and other clear basic math used to figure out what type of magecraft attacks are stronger than what. mystery is a side thing of course that is more related to a verse-specific (more so Gaia specific) authority system. not to be confused with Authorities in Nasuverse. i am using the word in its normal way here. not the Nasuverse specific concept.
there are several problems with this. the first one is the fact that this is reaching a lot considering normal Arcueid is considered a mainly raw power physical fighter with some hax as backup. naturally percentages here should line up with her physical stats, especially since that's what we see get weakened in Tsukihime explicitly. the second problem is that Arcueid even while extremely weakened can still use things such as Marble Phantasm and even Gaia's backup. she just has a stamina issue. this further implies that her percentage thing is regarding her physical stats, not her overall loss of some unknown abilities. third problem is we see no difference in how Red Arcueid fights compared to 30% Arcueid compared to weakened Arcueid. they all mainly fight physically with the same hax as backup. this further shows that her percentages are all about physical stats and not losing some weird abilities we don't know of. it's not mystery either before you try to imply that since no one in Tsukihime negs each other with mystery meaning there is no huge mystery gaps between tiers.
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But that's the problem - The "laws of reality" here, Physical Laws, are not OF THE REALITY, but of the Human Order. The ability one has to interact with the World following the physical laws literally depends on their channel to the Human Texture. Whatever law or rule why as Human attribute as an inherent property of reality itself is no more than a principle "Human Order" has as a setting that is "imposed" on us because we, as Humans, live connected to such texture.
One example of something that makes no sense in reality - Vlov "taking away" heat itself. Heat can't exist "in itself". Does he care? No. Because that's literally his ability, to impose his Principle over the texture of the planet.
Good question.
Considering Arcueid's powers are so much more than "I'm strong", I can't really accept a "physical brawler" 100%, but okey, I guess if you consider it like that you are correct. But remember most true displays of power of Arc were Marble based, not really physical.
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Hey guys wanna see some Minecraft skins of fate characters?
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don't see how this is relevant. regardless of the source, Types still when entering the dead Gaia of Angel Notes are bound to physical attributes. that doesn't mean they don't have abilities or things beyond the physical, but they have a physical power limit. when not abiding by physics they have no actual definable raw power to gauge. Arcueid however is clearly a physical fighter and abides by physics.
we're talking about the original canon. i have no idea why you're bringing up the Remake. regardless Nasuverse elements also work differently from real life. this doesn't make them illogical since they have actual explanations to how they work and rely on non-paradoxical axioms to an extent. however defying the laws of physics is different from defying the laws of logic, such as math. hell there is already places IRL where physics do not exist as we know them (black holes). physics are not the core of logic. heat, light (especially light), etc working differently from real life doesn't break logic. it's alternative physics. 2+2=75, being beyond omnipotence, above perfection, or a square circle is illogical and none of that is just an issue of different physics or laws.
Archetype? yes. Extra Arcueid? yes. normal Tsukihime Arcueid? no. not that much at least. Marble Phantasm has some potentially decent hax at best. the Millennium Chains may be fairly haxy (and strong) since Ether Liners who potentially have real good hax cannot destroy the Millennium Castle and that is required to be able to break the chains. outside of that Arcueid almost always uses physical attacks with very little of her other abilities. she even uses physical attacks against people far her superior (Nanaya) in vein and just transforms into Archetype Earth to settle it as if she knows her abilities are not wild enough to turn the tables at all.
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Decided to use ten tickets again guys.
I ended up getting Beowulf and Vritra.
I ended up getting Beowulf and Vritra.
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I gonna say one thing.
Who ever made this arcade exclusive....is a bi*ch a** mo**f*ck
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It's here, we are in endgame now
Will it be topped LB6? We'll find out tomorrow
Interestingly, it will divided only to two parts compared to LB6 which was divided into three parts
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,
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Just thought I’d bump this up again since the current topic seems to have settled down a bit. Hope that’s okay.
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ORT-chan wants human sacrifices for Christmas.
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I'm going to cross the **** out of my fingers for Simon bolivar or even cortez servant holy shit.
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This is off-topic but I noticed there are many language thread on this forum: Indonesian, Spanish, Vietnamese, etc.
I was just curious to ask, if you don’t understand/speak the language but wish to join. Is google translate acceptable then? (You want to participate but can’t due to reasons mentioned above so you use google translate to translate the messages and then post messages using it)
I was just curious to ask, if you don’t understand/speak the language but wish to join. Is google translate acceptable then? (You want to participate but can’t due to reasons mentioned above so you use google translate to translate the messages and then post messages using it)
