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Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

so that’s why douman couldn’t become a beast because he didn’t love humanity but what else was he missing?
B:Floating Text: Were you always this foolish, or is it because of your Alter Ego Spirit Origin's twisted nature? Well, no matter.

B:Floating Text: Ashiya Douman. No... Limbo.

B:Floating Text: It doesn't matter how many gods you devour. You will never be a Beast.

B:Floating Text: If you still don't understand why, then allow me to simplify:

B:Floating Text: A monstrous rakshasa devoid of love for humanity can never become a Beast.

Ouban Ashiya Douman: !!!



Fujimaru 1: The thing about Evils of Humanity is...





Fujimaru 1: They're not meant to eradicate humanity; they're meant for humans to overcome.



Fujimaru 2: Humanity's meant to overcome them, not the other way around!



Sakata Kintoki: I don't know what you guys are talkin' about, but I do know this!

Sakata Kintoki: His plan failed, didn't it!?

Danzo: Correct. Lord Seimei is saying that, regardless of how much magical energy his divine vessel may have...

Danzo: ...Limbo will never be able to truly transform into a Foreign God!

Danzo: Because no one without genuine love for humankind is qualified to become an Evil of Humanity!

Ouban Ashiya Douman: Mmmmmm! Mm, mmm, mmmmmmmmm!
As far as I remember, it was pretty much the part about loving Humanity that was the problem. Don't remember anything else being said.
 
As with a lot of villains, a lot of circumstances were just in our favor at the right moment. Kintoki regained his power from his youth, he accessed the Golden Huge Bear, Ibuki resisted Douman and gave Kintoki her sword.
 
he's just salty he's been debunked by me and several others when he comes up with random nonsense. dude can't even make an argument without contradicting his previous one every second.
Can't believe me singlehandedly stopping your weird takes from being accepted, i.e AE>Void, and 5-B base Melty Blood cast is me being debunked by you and your discord, unfortunate

@Violatas

There's no reason to not word it like that when it's true rip
 
Which part of "Berserker of White is the only one who could defeated Amaterasu no matter how small chance" statement you didn't understand? Amaterasu > Buddha > CCC Kiara.
it says she was just about the only one who could in good translations. Paul just used shitty MTL to translate what has been translated by actual translators.

so let me ask you, which part of "Only Saver, who has by all rights mastered the esoteric ability to completely turn off his sexual desire, is able to match up to this woman incarnate" did you not understand?

Kiara is described as True Demon while Amaterasu is described as Great Demon and Primordial Buddha. How could Kiara above the likes of Amaterasu by virtue of becoming close to a True Daemon? I don't understand a bit.
how is Kiara stronger than Amaterasu by being compared to what has been stated to be the third strongest group of entities in the verse? idk. you tell me. and tell me how a Sun Goddess is superior to a Bodhisattva of "universal scale and power."

but her CCC version will have no chance against Buddha while her current version believe she could defeat The Buddha it's about compatibility thing.
she thinks she can in GO. a lot different from a guidebook saying her stronger version cannot.

May i get citations for this? Because you forgot about the Gods, Buddha > CCC kiara. Then there's Zeus where his Terminal body is already compared to The Primordial Buddha aka Amaterasu.
it's the top 3 statement from Nasu. i've sent it to you before I believe. Zeus and the showings in GO are way too low to be anywhere near the top 3 or Extra level.

CCC world follows different rule than GO world. The same reason why Servantverse' Servant can casually destroy planets while GO need a lot of bullshit to do that and they still failed.
so you are admitting Extra Worlds work differently and have different lore? so you admit they can't scale?

Servantverse is a parody and its canon is questionable. no one really seems to have a straight answer on how to gauge it 100%. they generally consider it pseudo-canon or in a grey area.

@LehenDuo I think the main problem is that he looks at scaling as a sophist, not trying to reflect the work the best way possible. And, even if you don't like him, you gotta admit he is a good sophist if you watch his debate videos.
absolutely. he's definitely good at gaining a following by making bullshit sound more clever than it actually is. he's also entertaining to listen to even if you realize he's wrong.

It's basically a part of Gilgamesh character that he will never actually use 100% of his power.
not sure what this has to do with much, but Gilgamesh explicitly said he would unlock his treasury fully to face Kiara. that was one of his most rare exceptions but it did happen.

People always forget that BB had her NP sealed in the fight, also. The 1% chance is with her WITHOUT NP. (Going by memory, but I'm pretty sure it's like this.)
what? BB never had her NP sealed at any point in the story. she constantly used C.C.C for different things. i think you're confusing gameplay for lore. she only uses her NP on Turn 10 in the game. but this is just a gameplay mechanic in the same way Gilgamesh clearly doesn't have to be below 30% health to start blasting with Ea. Or wait 3 turns to use Enuma Elish.

About Kiara - Nasuverse is famous for it's Hax or "concepts" fights, so compability means a lot. Kiara is basically "Anything with senses" Murder. If she uses that ability, she has advantage, good luck trying to win.
yes but there is also statements that make her blatantly seem superior in general like some of the ones i mentioned up above in this post and earlier. and regardless of compatibility, it just shows that Arcueid being the only one who can defeat Amaterasu is not true. since it says she's just about the only one and Amaterasu was excluded from the people who can fight Kiara.

@Excaliburhuman While it is true a consistent scaling is always good to have, I won't say it is essential to a good story (it is to a great story but if there wasn't a consitent scaling but other parts of the story was good I really don't care too much.) Nasuverse has always struggled to try and keep a consitent scaling so I sort of tune it out when I read/watch them especially if they are by different authors.
honestly i think Nasuverse started getting inconsistencies when Fate came around. all of the old series can be fairly gauged without any issues really. FSN alone was somewhat inconsistent with its feats though and things slowly started to spiral out of control. though it seems more inconsistent than it actually is when you see battle boarders with the constant high-ball wank interpretations like FTL speed and or casual planet busting Servants without NPs and shit, which is just clearly not the case.

i do value consistent power scaling though. not as someone who cares about who is stronger than who, but to keep a story as consistent as possible.

I was just talking about the feats in the original Angle Notes not ultimate ones as a whole sorry if there was some confusion. I only remember one continetal feat by Jupiter. The problem with the three ultimate ones "dying" is that each one of them was suppose to be able to wipe of humanity by itself, and although we know V/V can do it we have no information on Jupiter and Pluto. Them being stopped also make it hard to see them each having the ability to end humanity. Personally Notes is one of my favorite works by Nasu, and I really liked the hopelessness it gave, but I wanted more of it. I'm pretty sure humanity got wiped out in the end (at least that is my head canon), but I wanted to be bleaker. I think this is just due to the fact that we never got to see the final fight and the Ultimate ones were rather passive during the story so it made them seem weaker to me. TL;DR my main problem is that most of the cool shit happened "off screen".
Jupiter was one. but the more impressive one was the death of Judgement. her death cry alone split a continent in half. imagine an actual attack. and she was killed by an Ether Liner, so they scale as well. and Types of course scale since Pluto could fight Judgement's 5 sisters and stalemate via mutual death.

he problem with the three ultimate ones "dying" is that each one of them was suppose to be able to wipe of humanity by itself,
well humanity throughout every era has always had outliers that are way above the rest of the lot. Zelretch is just one example of a few. i think it's very reasonable that a much more powerful humanity 500 years later would produce some outliers that can kill Types. and 8 known people out of potentially billions is an extremely smaller number. and now only Edem is left.

Type-Saturn also was fighting a entire continent's worth of people by itself successfully and killed one of the guys left who had the capability to kill it. it was only eventually brought down by Edem after the death of Godo. so it took on an entire continent worth of humans 500 years more advanced than the modern day, with the guy actually having the means to kill it. despite this it was winning, killed that one guy, and then lost when Edem came. i think that's pretty threatening in my opinion.

Personally Notes is one of my favorite works by Nasu, and I really liked the hopelessness it gave, but I wanted more of it. I'm pretty sure humanity got wiped out in the end (at least that is my head canon), but I wanted to be bleaker. I think this is just due to the fact that we never got to see the final fight and the Ultimate ones were rather passive during the story so it made them seem weaker to me. TL;DR my main problem is that most of the cool shit happened "off screen".
i agree that i wish we got to see more of it. though i do think humanity likely dies since it is stated to be a hopeless story. not concrete proof. but that seems to be nodding in that direction. rare to see a big Angel Notes fan. I know one other guy that liked it that much and started Nasuverse on it.
 
Hey guys

I feel like they did boudica dirty in fgo, like everyone else, I’m disappointed that they turned her into a goblin Rape joke and a loudspeaker for Nero.
 
Can't believe me singlehandedly stopping your weird takes from being accepted, i.e AE>Void, and 5-B base Melty Blood cast is me being debunked by you and your discord, unfortunate

@Violatas

There's no reason to not word it like that when it's true rip
i didn't make either of those threads. the only CRT I made that you commented on you agreed with and it passed, which was the biggest Tsukihime revision to date. so that "haha gatcha" attempt completely backfired on you.

you literally said that dropping a ******* moon is complex multiversal as an excuse for Sion tanking it to be an outlier. then you said the moon Aoko busted was likely complex multiversal. and you say I'm wanking? look in the mirror. you're projecting your own issues onto me. i would never argue for such blatant wank.

also no one in that thread was arguing for 5-B base Melty Blood. shows your lack of reading comprehension. do you down 7 bottles of Jack Daniels and light a bong before debating people?

you also didn't stop those threads. one thread died outright. the last comment was some guy asking if you were actually going to reply to me because you completely failed at debunking me. you of course never did and the thread died. oh but yeah, they were all from my Discord even though I don't even know who the last commenter was. way to try and dismiss anyone disagreeing with you as being part of the same group as if that even means anything.

but again, I didn't make that thread and no one was arguing for 5-B Melty Blood. you were really riding that 1-C moon drop wank though. I specifically have disagreed with Violatas arguments of planet level MB characters in a civil discussion. you can ask him yourself or look on my profile wall. along with several other things i thought were rated way too high. i've also stated 4-D resistances for MB (and in general) are wank. so why don't you look closely to see who is actually wanking?

and of course as usual, you don't even attempt to defend your other objectively wrong takes when they are called out. the fact you came in here shit talking me when everyone else was being civil is your inferiority complex kicking into gear on full display for all to see.
 
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I mean... that is exactly what a sophist is hahaha
Not really. A sophist doesn't use his previously established fame to gather mindless followers like moths to a flame. He finds arguments that can't easily be proven wrong even though they are or present his argument in such a way that you miss the flaws in logic. Seth does neither of these. He just straight-up states factually incorrect things.
 
Not really. A sophist doesn't use his previously established fame to gather mindless followers like moths to a flame. He finds arguments that can't easily be proven wrong even though they are or present his argument in such a way that you miss the flaws in logic. Seth does neither of these. He just straight-up states factually incorrect things.
a bit off topic, but Seth's ego is massive. I saw him saying he's above other debaters because he does it as his job. was funny as hell to listen to.
 
That and the whole TOP goku=true form darkseid thing (and all of his other bad takes)
when did he say this? you sure it was him? i know some people confuse what his even worse fans say with what he says. his fans tend to be more extreme. i know he wanks Goku but I didn't think that much for his DBS version. could be wrong though.
 
when did he say this? you sure it was him? i know some people confuse what his even worse fans say with what he says. his fans tend to be more extreme. i know he wanks Goku but I didn't think that much for his DBS version. could be wrong though.
Nah I vividly remember it being Seth. I can't find it on the spot because twitter is big but it was something along these lines

edit: youtube, not twitter, sorry.
 
@Violatas

There's no reason to not word it like that when it's true rip
Not really. This the second time on this thread someone has said its "necessary" they can just be rude whenever they want when its really not. Also rule 1 btw. You can literally just respectfully say why you don't agree.

@Pokemonfan807 alright I'm back from work. Will check that thread you posted later. Tired as hell.

Also small rant, but I've said this before, but I'm tired of Fate. Wish parts like Mahoyo, Garden of Sinners, and Tsukihime/Melty would get even half as much content and discussion as Fate does. I know Fate is clearly the most popular aspect of Nasuverse and is what has gathered most fans, but jesus do I think it can use a bit of rest.
 
Not really. This the second time on this thread someone has said its "necessary" they can just be rude whenever they want when its really not. Also rule 1 btw. You can literally just respectfully say why you don't agree.

@Pokemonfan807 alright I'm back from work. Will check that thread you posted later. Tired as hell.

Also small rant, but I've said this before, but I'm tired of Fate. Wish parts like Mahoyo, Garden of Sinners, and Tsukihime/Melty would get even half as much content and discussion as Fate does. I know Fate is clearly the most popular aspect of Nasuverse and is what has gathered most fans, but jesus do I think it can use a bit of rest.

I seriously wish that Nasu does something similar to El-Melloi novels, but for Mahoyo
 
it says she was just about the only one who could in good translations. Paul just used shitty MTL to translate what has been translated by actual translators.

so let me ask you, which part of "Only Saver, who has by all rights mastered the esoteric ability to completely turn off his sexual desire, is able to match up to this woman incarnate" did you not understand?
The point still stands, Berserker of white is the only one capable of defeating Amaterasu which mean Kiara can't. Here's the raw if you not believe it.

EXTRA、CCCだけの話なら、金色白面を『どれほど勝率が低くとも撃破できる状況にできる』のは彼女ぐらいである。(Berserker of white Material).

how is Kiara stronger than Amaterasu by being compared to what has been stated to be the third strongest group of entities in the verse? idk. you tell me. and tell me how a Sun Goddess is superior to a Bodhisattva of "universal scale and power."
You need to do your research on what's Bodhisattva means. Buddha (Sakyamuni) is above the average Bodhisattvas and Amaterasu is the Primordial Buddha which mean she's the strongest Buddha. Kama/Mara is also said to have universe as the domain. In this case Mara is at equal power to the Bodhisattvas.

she thinks she can in GO. a lot different from a guidebook saying her stronger version cannot.
She think so because he possess Nega-Saver skill.


it's the top 3 statement from Nasu. i've sent it to you before I believe. Zeus and the showings in GO are way too low to be anywhere near the top 3 or Extra level.
It's Primordial Daemon not True Daemon and you shouldn't say a part of it, Nasu says that if without counting Servant. Also Kiara is not a True Daemon she's just similar existence with power close to True Daemon.
What part of "Zeus Terminal body is compared to primordial Buddha" statement you didn't understand?

so you are admitting Extra Worlds work differently and have different lore? so you admit they can't scale?

Servantverse is a parody and its canon is questionable. no one really seems to have a straight answer on how to gauge it 100%. they generally consider it pseudo-canon or in a grey area.
In Extra world of data concept and legends became literal hence it holds absolute power within it. In case you don't know, Zeus' Lighting is stated to be able to incinerate universe. If Zeus' use it in Virtual world of extra it became literal thing and Kiara wouldn't be able to stand a chance against it because universe is her domain while Zeus could incinerate it with a single thunderbolt.

Servantverse is written by Nasu and he himself has said that world follow different rule than FGO world, if you talk about canonity GudaGuda world is the only one confirmed as non-Canon.
 
The point still stands, Berserker of white is the only one capable of defeating Amaterasu which mean Kiara can't. Here's the raw if you not believe it.

EXTRA、CCCだけの話なら、金色白面を『どれほど勝率が低くとも撃破できる状況にできる』のは彼女ぐらいである。(Berserker of white Material).


You need to do your research on what's Bodhisattva means. Buddha (Sakyamuni) is above the average Bodhisattvas and Amaterasu is the Primordial Buddha which mean she's the strongest Buddha. Kama/Mara is also said to have universe as the domain. In this case Mara is at equal power to the Bodhisattvas.


She think so because he possess Nega-Saver skill.



It's Primordial Daemon not True Daemon and you shouldn't say a part of it, Nasu says that if without counting Servant. Also Kiara is not a True Daemon she's just similar existence with power close to True Daemon.
What part of "Zeus Terminal body is compared to primordial Buddha" statement you didn't understand?


In Extra world of data concept and legends became literal hence it holds absolute power within it. In case you don't know, Zeus' Lighting is stated to be able to incinerate universe. If Zeus' use it in Virtual world of extra it became literal thing and Kiara wouldn't be able to stand a chance against it because universe is her domain while Zeus could incinerate it with a single thunderbolt.

Servantverse is written by Nasu and he himself has said that world follow different rule than FGO world, if you talk about canonity GudaGuda world is the only one confirmed as non-Canon.
you sending me a raw and just claiming actual people who have translated entire guidebooks are wrong is not a convincing argument. especially since I've seen several of you use those same translations. it's also especially bad when considering your supposed true translation contradicts another statement while the actual translation does not. makes you think doesn't it?

Amaterasu is the sun god and is also amped in conceptual space. without the conceptual space amp, each tail is a 9x amp if memory serves while Kiara is of universal scale and power. fact is she is explicitly excluded from the people who can defeat Kiara, which lines up exactly with the actual translation that says Arcueid is "just about" the only one who can defeat her. not sure if that primordial buddha power scaling you're pulling is from Nasuverse or actual Buddhism, but it's very clear in Extra that Kiara is superior. there is absolutely no reason for me to believe your supposedly accurate translation when it contradicts other statements in that same guidebook. going to trust the people who actually translate entire guidebooks and aren't involved in versus debates. and if you're asking me to put that through Google Translate or MTL that's just silly.

Primordial Demon is a term never used in-lore in regards to Nasuverse and DDD, so that is likely a translation thing since I've seen true interchanged with Primordial. DDD was also specifically asked in the question and should be referring to those. but if you want to disregard it, True Daemons based off their own scaling and even potentially showings would already be in that top 3 seat. and i never said Kiara was a True Daemon. i said she was on the level of one. and we have no idea why Nasu excluded Servants considering no Servant at any point in the franchise has even been close to top 3.

conceptual space wanking Zeus to actually destroy a universe with lightning is nothing to a walking hax machine of a comparable scale who would likely be amped to in such a place.

i never said it was non-canon. i said most people cannot figure out how canon it is. people just consider it to be in a grey area because of the weirdness of it.

basically your argument is that if GO god-tiers were in conceptual space that they would be amped massively to these Extra tiers? maybe? but there's not enough evidence of this. and Amaterasu in conceptual space has already been excluded from the people who can fight Kiara. there's really no way to reasonably get around this statement. hax also matter a lot, so they'd also need to get a lot of hax from conceptual space amping them. an ungodly amount that they don't currently possess since authority does not work like this website claims at all.
 
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Mash: One Saint Graph response...has vanished...

Merlin: ...

Mash: Artoria...even though it was so we could forge the Holy Sword...

Artoria: That's right. I think there's a problem with the forging process.

Artoria: I don't know if the human spirit isn't there, or if it's just not efficient enough.

Artoria: Still, the Inner Sea is where the planet's soul is kept. It didn't have a human soul to start with.

Mash:



Fujimaru 1:



Artoria: Sorry to have kept you waiting, Fujimaru, Mash.

Artoria: This is the “base model of the Holy Sword”—its “essence”. Please deliver it while you have the time.

Artoria: Da Vinci and the rest of Chaldea should be able to refine the formula using this as a base.

Artoria: I wish you could have gotten Excalibur, but...it seems like that didn't work out so well.



Fujimaru 1: It's just like a Holy Grail...!?

Mash: Yes, it's a fundamental truth of magecraft of the same quality, no, of the same rank! But that's not the problem here, Senpai!

Now this finally makes sense:
“Invocation” is an English word that means praying to God, exercising the law, etc. In modern magic, it refers to the technique of attracting higher spirituality into one's own self, and in Japanese, there is a fixed translation of "summoning." "Invocation" is also called "the work of the Grail (Holy Grail)".
By the way, in modern magic as well, the technique of invoking spirituality on the outside of the self is called "Evocation," and the regular translation of "evocation" is established. Also, "Evocation" is sometimes called "sword work"
(this is from 2019 IIRC)
 
or how you agree with Melty Blood Arcade Routes for one thread then say they are invalid the next one for reasons that anyone who played the games would know are bullshit.
Late here but I think Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter have scarred this site on ladder scaling. This site has a weird issue where, as far as fighting games go, many are hesitant on a good deal of the cast scaling to each other in some shape or form. I've seen plenty of threads on fighting games verses that I'm definitely not bull ******** when I say this. Heck, another verse that I've been trying to upgrade, DoA, has character profiles leagues below Ryu Hayabusa, even though while he's definitely somewhat "above" most of the cast, he absolutely shouldn't be magnitudes higher. Buuuut most won't accept the scaling so I've kinda just given up.
But yeah the ladder feats for the Melty games are fine and have been accepted on the profiles for years.
Question in nasuverse is immeasurable speed baseline or higher than baseline
Eh TBH I don't really agree with immeasurable speed myself. Immeasurable speed as a concept is something I've always had issues with admittedly. I'd say something like DC's Flash moving faster than the Speed Force itself is immeasurable though.
That being said, infinite speed is fine. Top tiers like Void, Archetype, Kiara, etc (anyone really that's > BB) should upscale her infinite speed feat by a massive amount.
But by this site's standards, the immeasurable rating would definitely be above baseline
 
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Late here but I think Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter have scarred this site on ladder scaling. This site has a weird issue where, as far as fighting games go, many are hesitant on a good deal of the cast scaling to each other in some shape or form. I've seen plenty of threads on fighting games verses that I'm definitely not bull ******** when I say this. Heck, another verse that I've been trying to upgrade, DoA, has character profiles leagues below Ryu Hayabusa, even though while he's definitely somewhat "above" most of the cast, he absolutely shouldn't be magnitudes higher. Buuuut most won't accept the scaling so I've kinda just given up.
But yeah the ladder feats for the Melty games are fine and have been accepted on the profiles for years.

Eh TBH I don't really agree with immeasurable speed myself. Immeasurable speed as a concept is something I've always had issues with admittedly. I'd say something like DC's Flash moving faster than the Speed Force itself is immeasurable though.
That being said, infinite speed is fine. Top tiers like Void, Archetype, Kiara, etc (anyone really that's > BB) should upscale her infinite speed feat by a massive amount.
But by this site's standards, the immeasurable rating would definitely be above baseline

what’s baseline immeasurable speed anyway?
 
Late here but I think Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter have scarred this site on ladder scaling. This site has a weird issue where, as far as fighting games go, many are hesitant on a good deal of the cast scaling to each other in some shape or form. I've seen plenty of threads on fighting games verses that I'm definitely not bull ******** when I say this. Heck, another verse that I've been trying to upgrade, DoA, has character profiles leagues below Ryu Hayabusa, even though while he's definitely somewhat "above" most of the cast, he absolutely shouldn't be magnitudes higher. Buuuut most won't accept the scaling so I've kinda just given up.
But yeah the ladder feats for the Melty games are fine and have been accepted on the profiles for years.
it's more so the fact he's for it and then against it back and forth constantly. wishy washy. and he made up things that are easily disproven by anyone who plays the games, like claiming anyone can beat anyone in the arcade routes which blatantly does not happen. i can understand being skeptical due to other fighting games that are all over the place, so long as you're consistent and try to research the series in question for yourself to reach a conclusion. but he was neither consistent nor just being skeptical nor doing any research. not like I suffered from these either since my CRT was the one where he was for it, so this isn't coming from a place of salt on my end.

Eh TBH I don't really agree with immeasurable speed myself. Immeasurable speed as a concept is something I've always had issues with admittedly. I'd say something like DC's Flash moving faster than the Speed Force itself is immeasurable though.
i mostly agree with this take. immeasurable speed is really just moving through time via some form of movement. it's just a different type of movement. it's not faster or slower than infinite speed on its own. someone with infinite speed could speed blitz someone with finite speed that can move through time with their movements before they take a single step. and you can't say immeasurable speed is just some arbitrary speed beyond infinite since you can't go beyond infinite speed. complete misuse of set theory any normal person would facepalm at.
 
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what’s baseline immeasurable speed anyway?
Well uh depends on your own standards for immeasurable speed. Like I said, I personally don't agree with this site's standards for it myself.
I mostly agree with this take. immeasurable speed is really just moving through time via some form of movement. it's just a different type of movement. it's not faster or slower than infinite speed on its own. someone with infinite speed could speed blitz someone with finite speed that can move through time with their movements before they take a single step. and you can't say immeasurable speed is just some arbitrary speed beyond infinite since you can't go beyond infinite speed. complete misuse of set theory any normal person would facepalm at.
Also yeah that's completely valid. I actually have some off site friends that don't really use "immeasurable" as a rating at all. I 100% can get why one wouldn't use a speed rating above infinite.
 
you sending me a raw and just claiming actual people who have translated entire guidebooks are wrong is not a convincing argument. especially since I've seen several of you use those same translations. it's also especially bad when considering your supposed true translation contradicts another statement while the actual translation does not. makes you think doesn't it?
What do you mean? The point still stands, stick to the main point. Berserker of white is the only one who could defeat Amaterasu, there's no better source than the raw itself, blame yourself for not being able to speak Japanese and relying on the translators. Where the contradiction? The scans please.

Amaterasu is the sun god and is also amped in conceptual space. without the conceptual space amp, each tail is a 9x amp if memory serves while Kiara is of universal scale and power. fact is she is explicitly excluded from the people who can defeat Kiara, which lines up exactly with the actual translation that says Arcueid is "just about" the only one who can defeat her. not sure if that primordial buddha power scaling you're pulling is from Nasuverse or actual Buddhism, but it's very clear in Extra that Kiara is superior. there is absolutely no reason for me to believe your supposedly accurate translation when it contradicts other statements in that same guidebook. going to trust the people who actually translate entire guidebooks and aren't involved in versus debates. and if you're asking me to put that through Google Translate or MTL that's just silly
Bruh, i don't know where you get that. Amaterasu is the primordial Buddha, it was stated multiple times that She is Dainichi Nyorai (大日如来) in Nasuverse. Bring that scans over here because I don't know which one you talking about. I too read the mats,
Kiara got power of Universal Scale because she is becoming the Devil Bodhisattva the power to govern solar system (Trichiliocosm) is not limited to Kiara but to all Bodhisattva in general, not to mention that Tamamo said her nine-tailed form could threaten Great Trichiliocosm which is not contradict anything (she said it's equal to Goetia and the statements about Goetia being more powerful than Kiara).

Primordial Demon is a term never used in-lore in regards to Nasuverse and DDD, so that is likely a translation thing since I've seen true interchanged with Primordial. DDD was also specifically asked in the question and should be referring to those. but if you want to disregard it, True Daemons based off their own scaling and even potentially showings would already be in that top 3 seat. and i never said Kiara was a True Daemon. i said she was on the level of one. and we have no idea why Nasu excluded Servants considering no Servant at any point in the franchise has even been close to top 3.
You need to look the Outer gods, they're described as similar being to true daemons.


basically your argument is that if GO god-tiers were in conceptual space that they would be amped massively to these Extra tiers? maybe? but there's not enough evidence of this. and Amaterasu in conceptual space has already been excluded from the people who can fight Kiara. there's really no way to reasonably get around this statement. hax also matter a lot, so they'd also need to get a lot of hax from conceptual space amping them. an ungodly amount that they don't currently possess since authority does not work like this website claims at all.
It is though. Regular servant normally cannot travel at the speed of light but it was possible in the world of data.

i never said it was non-canon. i said most people cannot figure out how canon it is. people just consider it to be in a grey area because of the weirdness of it.
How do you determine something as non-canon? What's the method to determine it? Please explain to me. Because Servanverse is written by Nasu himself and he never said that as non-canon.
 
Well uh depends on your own standards for immeasurable speed. Like I said, I personally don't agree with this site's standards for it myself.

Also yeah that's completely valid. I actually have some off site friends that don't really use "immeasurable" as a rating at all. I 100% can get why one wouldn't use a speed rating above infinite.

well yeah I remember people saying it doesn’t matter if infinite or above infinite Or infinite squared. It’s still infinite
 
I'll prolly going to continue the Bazett spam later on, maybe sion as well but her Etherlite can be such of a** to handled with
 
What do you mean? The point still stands, stick to the main point. Berserker of white is the only one who could defeat Amaterasu, there's no better source than the raw itself, blame yourself for not being able to speak Japanese and relying on the translators. Where the contradiction? The scans please.
all i'm seeing here is baseless claims of a guy baselessly claiming he knows Japanese and knows it better than people who translate guidebooks that many use and consider fine. i have zero reason to believe you. in fact i have reason to believe the opposition who translated all of this because their stuff does not contradict anything while yours does. honestly i think you're full of it.

Where the contradiction? The scans please.
the stuff i already sent that says Buddha is the only one in Extra that can fight Kiara which explicitly excludes Amaterasu. and the fact Kiara is stated to be of universal scale and power while Amaterasu is comparable to the Sun and each tail is only a 9x multiplier each from base Tamamo when not in conceptual space. Amaterasu is only real crazy with conceptual space amps and that still puts her nowhere near Kiara who is stronger even without that and also would likely be amped as well in it.

You need to look the Outer gods, they're described as similar being to true daemons.
True Daemons were compared to the actual Outer Gods written by Lovecraft. it specifically is a cross-fiction comparison to get a better idea of what they are. this statement even came out before Nasuverse Outer Gods were fully introduced IIRC. and the comparison wasn't a power comparison. it was just comparing their nature.

It is though. Regular servant normally cannot travel at the speed of light but it was possible in the world of data.
Gilgamesh flew across the galaxy very quickly outside of the Moon Cell's reality. so Extra Worlds in general work differently. not just the Moon Cell.

How do you determine something as non-canon? What's the method to determine it? Please explain to me. Because Servanverse is written by Nasu himself and he never said that as non-canon.
considering it's just goofy stuff that's all over the place? that's generally what makes people think this in the same way Carnival Phantasm isn't canon. regardless it doesn't change much.

not to mention that Tamamo said her nine-tailed form could threaten Great Trichiliocosm which is not contradict anything
contradicts all materials we know about her from Extra. this is just Tamamo's overconfidence.

you want me to resend everything I've already sent to you before? alright.

Only Saver, who has by all rights mastered the esoteric ability to completely turn off his sexual desire, is able to match up to this woman incarnate.

The reason why this attack’s power, visuals, and scale are so huge is because reincarnated Kiara is a being similar to Saver.
People who devote their life to bringing salvation to Sattvas (living things) are referred to as Bodhisattvas. People who have attained moksha (libertation/release) and become Buddhas are also Bodhisattvas. A Bodhisattva is a Deva [deity] of universe’s scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System.

here it compares Amaterasu to the sun and shows how far she scales above Servants.

Having lost most of her power, she is now on the same level as other human heroic spirits, however when the number of her tails increases and her spirit rank goes up to the highest level, it’s impossible for humans to comprehend her full power. This is only natural, as the foundation of her being came from an offering to the sun. Thus, the scale of her existence is equivalent to that of the sun.
By the way, for each tail that returns, Cas-ko’s power increases by 9x. This means that in her max power state with all nine tails her power has increased by 99.
Supposing that we represent an A rank Servant with a numerical power level of, say, 100 (not including Noble Phantasms), Cas-ko with 1 tail has a power of about 9, and as you can see could never defeat an A rank Servant. But, as the number of tails increases… well it’s silly to even try comparing.

so let's recap here.

Amaterasu is compared to the sun in power.

Kiara is compared to the universe in scale and power.

Amaterasu is 43,046,721 times stronger than One Tail Tamamo without conceptual space amps. And One Tail Tamamo is incredibly weak compared to A rank Servants. that is nowhere near even normal universe level, let alone Nasuverse's universe level. that's not even planetary going off the math. honestly doesn't speak well to the raw power of the Sun and Moon Cell since the latter's power was compared to the former. though the Moon Cell creates its multiverses with hax and whatnot and its clearly a multiversal reality warping machine. so i'm not trying to put it down from an overall perspective or even the sun.

Kiara is compared to True Daemon's in power which also seem to have some weird ass universal BS in DDD which is just a little side thing that further coincides with her already uncontradicted universe statements.

Amaterasu is only crazy OP in conceptual space. but nothing suggest she gets amped anywhere near Kiara's level. and Kiara would likely be amped in conceptual space too which would widen the gap again.

Kiara is also stated to be able to easily manage the solar system which would include the sun.

every single point of reference in Extra and CCC shows that Kiara is massively superior to Amaterasu. so am i to trust all of this along with Arcueid being stated to be "just about" the only one who can defeat Amaterasu, which all lines up with everything else pointing out the fact she is inferior to Kiara? or am I supposed to believe you who has no proven credibility in the slightest and whose supposed claims on what was really said contradicts everything established so far? how about no?
 
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