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I mean... the same thing can be said of you.
No offense but you're pretty stonewalley on things
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Nasuverse: 6-C Mages
- Thread starter CRIMPSUMPSKI2
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No offense but you're pretty stonewalley on things
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KingNanaya
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nah, not mine
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- #124
Oh yeah I found this too lol, average third-rate noble Mage is also 1/10th Servant level
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Makes a little more sense. I misread.
Still, Nasu statements are not super reliable. So I guess put me down for neutral.
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if he makes multiple statements affirming the same thing, i dont see how theyc ant be taken into consideration
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- #127
innocent until proven guilty imo
KingNanaya
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taken from the verse page
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nasu wog has the unique property of being disregarded even without contradiction
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It's not Nasu specific. WoG is always limited in value compared to canon feats
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yet we have no real reason to reject said WoG in this case
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We have a great reason: None of these characters have any feats that get them anywhere close to that.
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- #133
feats aren't the only way to grant scaling
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I'm aware, but this would be an extreme upgrade backed by nothing in the source material. It's not reasonable to think that somehow literally any feat between 9-A and 6-C was conspicuously absent from any of these characters' portrayals. He likely wasn't attempting to be very precise with his statement of a "tenfold increase" and we're giving it way more credit than it deserves.
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Your opinion on what seems like an extreme leap doesn't change anything. What matters is the internal consistency in what we're told and shown, and there's enough to argue that maybe Kuzuki and these people being that strong isn't a random one-off thing. Nasu even restates the same value when he says average third-tier noble mages are 10x below people who can fight servants.
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Well, it changes my vote to "disagree" but I don't anticipate changing your mind.
Yeah, I wouldn't take that literally either.
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well noble mage bloodlines are much stronger than regular mage bloodlines on average
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Actually, the wording of Nasu answer is a bit different than that. It's not straightforward, but it can be basically divided into two parts - first, Medea/Caster, because she worried about her "Master", gave him 10x more "PUFF than an ordinary human". Important here is that there is no mention of strength, power or something similar. This is important because of how we have been said Reinforcement works. The second part then explains that, as Kuzuki was, base, far above "an ordinary human", the result was something that impressed even Medea/Caster.
So, she did "Reinforcement", and through it, gave Kuzuki "10x more puff" than an ordinary human. Reinforcement is "enhanced the target's meaning of existence", "elevating the target's existence through the infusion of mag. energy" - but, even in FSN we learn that this "infusion of mag. energy" isn't really infusion as in "putting the mag. energy IN the object" (the thing Shirou tries to do and fails every single time.), but at least for Rin, when she uses it in an external object, it's more like "layering", as if an armor, of ME. Considering Kuzuki is said to have reached the apex of Breathing and Walking, and the use of the word "puff", I think the relation of she giving him an "armor", by layering of mag. energy, and giving him more to work with through his Breathing and Walking, is at the very least implied.
So, this may have been more (maybe a lot more) than 10x, as Kuzuki, as a master of Breathing and Walking, would be capable of actually making use of the "extra puff" Caster provided. Basically, Kuzuki's extra strength and etc weren't a direct result of Caster's spell (ME, in the end, is a resource, and the power of the attacks was entirely generated BY Kuzuki), the spell gave him the extra resources, which Kuzuki had the capacity to properly use given he is B&W "master", so to say.
This is a bit problematic... First, base Kuzuki at the Teraton range is ridiculous and makes no sense whatsoever, the story itself shows him as nowhere near that. But, in the end, that's a problem of the scaling of the series and the chain scaling more than a problem in your argument itself, so I don't know what exactly to say.
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There's a problem with the scaling as a Magus and actual power that Nasu gives.Oh yeah I found this too lol, average third-rate noble Mage is also 1/10th Servant level
Many many times we have been given "X person is Y level as a magus" - an example I always remember is Aoko vs Alice, in Mahou Tsukai. He says Aoko would have no chance in a battle of Magecraft - and then says Alice would lose in a actual battle, and the VN itself shows Aoko destroying ******* Flat Snark (even though she definitely (FAR) surpassed her limits and reached a level she had never reached before (and was only able to reach said power level BECAUSE of Flat Snark, in the first place), SHE STILL DESTROYED ******* Flat Snark).
Having X rank as Magus =/= having X rank as a fighter/in battle.
Nasu is somewhat careful in this separation, shown by his answer about Aoko/Toko vs Caster, for example:
Another example that comes to mind is Kiritsugu's "ranking". Nasu said it was something like 40, IIRC - yet, he defeated Kayneth, the YOUNGEST BRAND in ******* history, who is considered a genius among geniuses.
And then there are things like Aoko's Circuit being Quality C / Quantity E, but she magically (sorry for the pun) becomes capable of generating sound/noise by the mere functioning/activation of said Circuit, which we literally know jack shit what means, but is one more "oddity" in capacity that isn't accounted by any of the previously given parameters of ability.
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I blame the trying to scale it as a pure power/DBZ-like setting, when power itself is sometimes the least important. The interactions of what Nasu calls Advantages make this become non-sensical too fast and too obviously.
Kiritsugu, the guy with the bullet that literally short-circuits anything with magic flow and is an ignore defense/ignore all/****-you-button?
I can kinda of understand Prime Kirei being called that, but Kiritsugu can only reach Island-level by buying explosives...
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also, the einzbern homunculi are equal or stronger than servants, and bazett fought with liz
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Yeah, Nasu interviews should be taken with a grain of salt unless we get proper stuff in canon supporting it.
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I don't even think it's the interviews themselves that are a problem most of the time, even though Nasu has given some very... awkward answer, let's put it that way, but the translation/interpretation of them.
Examples being people thinking that because Nasu said "Arcueid can defeat X" it means it's Arcueid 30%+Weakened post-body rebuilding, while she literally has the ability to receibe near inifinite support form the World itself through World Backup.
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^also, the einzbern homunculi are equal or stronger than servants, and bazett fought with liz
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Yet, the only Einzbern homunculus who showed any capacity whatsoever of actually fighting a Servant was Filia - while possesed by a literal goddess.
I actually think Filia was the only one NOT one-shot of the Einz Homunculi... (vs. Servants, but memory may be playing tricks on me on this one)
Even little miss Wishgranter Illya was basically one-shot. And okay, that was vs Gil, but really... does anyone think Herakles is weaker than Illya? Because, given the showings of Emiya vs Herakles and Saber vs Herakles, we can pretty reliably say Illya would be one-shot just as easily by any one of those.
Also, Servants in HGW are "partially" supplied by the grails themselves, which are considerably stronger than magi.
So, even if they have the same engine/muscles, Servants are from the very beginning far ahead in their capacity to actually use said power because they have the resources.
And then there's the whole difference in the skills and etc, like NPs and such. Saber couldn't even START her Magic Core with 1000+ ME of her own... Think about that. (Though you can reasonably argue this is one of the cases of a quality problem, as she needed something external to move her ME, not a quantity one.)
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Q: What's Leysritt's arm-wrestling rank in the world of Fate?
A: Leysritt's arm-wrestling... is about an even match with Rider using Monstrous Strength? Rank value is about B-.
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Now put the Rank 1 arm-wrestler vs Connor McGregor in a cage... and you understand why that means literally nothing in an actual fight.
"Just because you are correct (as in, the quote you give is a true statement of Nasu) doesn't mean you are right (as in, what you are implying with said statement)."
Saber loses in the arm-wrestling vs Shirou and Rin.
Also Saber:
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well nasu gives a value to leysritt's strength, being b-
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Well a guy with E-Rank strength kept up in a battle involving multiple people with C and A-rank strength. Yes. I'm talking about Edison.
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No, he just isn't.
He's answering a question about arm-wrestling and begins the answer with "Leysritt arm-wrestling".
Even the Rank, the translation completely forgets about the "能力値的" in the original answer, and just says Rank B-, for some reason.
One - the "Leysritt arm-wrestling" is marked by "ha/は", a topic marker. Japanese has no subject proper, which is hard to explain, but basically/simplifying, the topic is equivalent to the subject. All afteer that is referig TO THIS.
Two - he could've just as easily used the "筋力" he has used as a Parameter, roughly "physical power/strength", but deliberately chose to use "ability power/strength".
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well liz's signature weapon is one so heavy, that even a lot of servants would be better off using hand to hand combat.
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That's a different thing.
I'm not saying Leysritt isn't clearly far stronger than any normal human.
But it's a misinterpretation of the phrase, given, derived partially from a rough translation, to say that Nasu is saying Leysritt STRENGTH parameter is Rank B-.
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If in Nasuverse jokes are cannon, Parameters are the joke
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what other parameter could he be referring to here?
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None. It's refering to her arm-wrestling. As i said, it's not really implicit, the topic marker literally marks that explictly. The part after the "?" doesn't have anything marked as topic because the topic was marked before - Leysritt's Arm-Wrestling.
The "Rank X" has been used for random things and jokes a reasonable amount of times, which is one of the reasons for the memes of "Shirou's Rank EX Cooking" and etc. Can only really remember Kiyohime Cleaning (which is her actually using fire to burn thrash, lol) as an example. but I'm pretty sure it's used as far as original FSN.
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Disagree with this as everyone else outlined and plus iirc the original statement said Kuzuki got amped ten times to regular human or something so that alone debunks the OP
KingNanaya
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