- 14,803
- 8,720
let's hope things can go smoothly
As of recently, there has been a lot of contention in regards to Genjutsu in naruto and how it's Applicable to verse equalization, the lack of a consensus means that we have gotten dozens of threads asking the same question without a clear answer. It's for this reason that I wanted to create this revision thread so that future questions may be directed to this thread for the reason why or why not Genjutsu is applicable in versus debates.
Relevant Thread
'''Post Credit Scene'''
Next CRT
Agree: 19 (UchihaSlayer,Lordtracer,God900,Arckuroi,Rocker, AdNiBN002,Kidkinsey,animesfreaks2,Blastx2,Baken384,joshpiece,gokusparkle,Naruriasuzumaki, Painto12,Roygundam,XSoulofcinderx,Darkdragonmedeus,The_Alxhemist,XXKingxx69)
Neutral: 1 (LordGriffin9000,Loyd)
As of recently, there has been a lot of contention in regards to Genjutsu in naruto and how it's Applicable to verse equalization, the lack of a consensus means that we have gotten dozens of threads asking the same question without a clear answer. It's for this reason that I wanted to create this revision thread so that future questions may be directed to this thread for the reason why or why not Genjutsu is applicable in versus debates.
Relevant Thread
Scan 1
Scan 2
The first thing I think we should tackle is the Jiraiya statement which is often the source of all these discussions, the statement in question is often misinterpreted as saying “Genjutsu effects the 5 senses via controlling the flow of chakra in the brain” however the actual statement implies the inverse, Genjutsu effects the 5 senses to take control of the chakra within you, this might at first seem arbitrary but it in fact completely changes the mechanics of how genjutsu works because it implies the sensory manipulation happens first and the control of chakra is just a natural consequence of that.
This is consistent with how most genjutsu is portrayed within the series, where the idea is to target your opponent's senses first, because if the entirety of the genjutsu is created after the fact then that begs the question of what's actually being affected Initially, in which case i don't particularly find the other interpretation consistent or logical (why target the senses at all)
However the most important thing I want you to take away from this is that Jiraiya’s state is inherently an esoteric one, it’s a rule of thumb for shinobi dealing with genjutsu not a statement of fact in regards to how genjutsu operates in every instance, this is because Genjutsu isn't a specific ability, it’s an umbrella term for Illusion based techniques some that have their own internal mechanics, some genjutsu uses the chakra of the victim as a medium, some genjutsu directly sends the users chakra into the victim while other genjutsu has very little to do with internal anatomy of your opponent and are mostly external Genjutsu that act more like conventional illusions. so i find it weird that this statement has become the pillar and unifier for the series treatment of genjutsu regardless of how inconsistent it becomes with different variables, it often feels like the statement is often given the most importance because under certain interpretations it’s more charitable to the idea for a specialized system that cant be equalized that results in its ineffectiveness.
Scan 2
The first thing I think we should tackle is the Jiraiya statement which is often the source of all these discussions, the statement in question is often misinterpreted as saying “Genjutsu effects the 5 senses via controlling the flow of chakra in the brain” however the actual statement implies the inverse, Genjutsu effects the 5 senses to take control of the chakra within you, this might at first seem arbitrary but it in fact completely changes the mechanics of how genjutsu works because it implies the sensory manipulation happens first and the control of chakra is just a natural consequence of that.
This is consistent with how most genjutsu is portrayed within the series, where the idea is to target your opponent's senses first, because if the entirety of the genjutsu is created after the fact then that begs the question of what's actually being affected Initially, in which case i don't particularly find the other interpretation consistent or logical (why target the senses at all)
However the most important thing I want you to take away from this is that Jiraiya’s state is inherently an esoteric one, it’s a rule of thumb for shinobi dealing with genjutsu not a statement of fact in regards to how genjutsu operates in every instance, this is because Genjutsu isn't a specific ability, it’s an umbrella term for Illusion based techniques some that have their own internal mechanics, some genjutsu uses the chakra of the victim as a medium, some genjutsu directly sends the users chakra into the victim while other genjutsu has very little to do with internal anatomy of your opponent and are mostly external Genjutsu that act more like conventional illusions. so i find it weird that this statement has become the pillar and unifier for the series treatment of genjutsu regardless of how inconsistent it becomes with different variables, it often feels like the statement is often given the most importance because under certain interpretations it’s more charitable to the idea for a specialized system that cant be equalized that results in its ineffectiveness.
This is the section where it branches out into different sub-arguments but ill do my best to cover everything so let's first start with the premise.
Chakra isn't Inherently needed to be affected by Genjutsu, Chakra within the body that is, the easiest example to illustrate is the Infinite Tsukuyomi, a Genjutsu that was used to enslave mankind thousands of years ago, long before humans were gifted the ability to create chakra By Hagoromo and by proxy long before humans likely had a chakra system within their anatomy. However, this type of genjutsu isn't restricted solely to just that jutsu. It has been replicated by more pedestrian genjutsu Like Kabuto’s sleep genjutsu that affected an entire stadium of normal citizens or Itachi using genjutsu to control a regular woman.
These examples are important to highlight because normal people in naruto do not passively have large amounts of chakra flowing through them, specifically not the amounts that are needed for genjutsu chakra needs to be consciously created by mixing your physical and spiritual energy, so while everyone can make chakra they don't have it running through their system 24/7, at best they have small amounts located at their centre. This is exacerbated by the fact that's it’s extremely hard to actually get chakra to flow to specific parts of your body away from the centre, as a reference this is how shinobi look when they are not focusing chakra in specific parts] of their system let alone normal people, the discrepancy between normal people and shinobi is also further explored in the Shikamaru novel.
[https://imgur.com/PQRLK5s Scan 1]
[https://imgur.com/qCwRERA Scan 2]
However, this premise, in turn, has branched into different types of arguments so let's tackle them one by one.
'“ This does not Particularly matter if people don't themselves have chakra because chakra is still being sent into them"
This one isn't Super important to the overall point but I thought I'd discuss it anyway in which case this is Partially true, sharingan Genjutsu actively pours chakra into the enemy to take control of their senses, however more common genjutsu affects the senses to control the chakra already inside the person, yet these people still fall prey to the effects of Genjutsu despite actively not having chakra poured into them or having the required amount of chakra to control their flow, the implications here support the premise that Genjutsu is first and foremost sensory manipulation before chakra manipulation and that the latter is simply a consequence of the former as opposed to an intrinsic mechanic of the jutsu. It also supports the argument of Jiraiya’s statement being contextual to Shinobi’s who actually do have chakra flowing constantly within them during combat.
"Even if the characters send chakra into their opponents it wouldn't work because people outside naruto dont have an energy system connected to their nervous system which is what is required for the jutsu to take effect”'
This is Incorrect, this limitation is never established within the series and is entirely assumed based on a statement that infers a different meaning with a genjutsu mechanic that's entirely different from what the Sharingan genjutsu does, the only connecting tissue here is that they both happen to be called genjutsu. Another issue with this argument is that it adds characteristics to the chakra pathway system solely based on the fact that it’s connected to the actual thing that reproduces those characteristics, this doesn't really make a lot of sense because regardless of your stance of when the manipulation takes place, the fact of the matter is that it’s still the physical senses that are producing those effects, chakra is merely the catalyst and if you can replace that catalyst with something that can replicate the same effect then it really doesn't matter.
However, the biggest oversight this argument makes is that the mechanic of sending chakra into your opponent's eyes to take control of their chakra system involves the user's chakra flowing through the nervous system to connect to the chakra pathway anyway. It’s particularly egregious when Shinobi themselves have a specific ability called chakra flow which allows them to flow chakra into a variety of things, ranging from wood,steel,water,flesh,corpses ect yet we are expected to draw the line at the nervous system a feat that chakra has objectively demonstrated to do just from the opposite end of what this argument assumes. It's the equivalent of arguing that it's impossible to get nutrients into a man with no mouth despite the existence of IV's
Chakra isn't Inherently needed to be affected by Genjutsu, Chakra within the body that is, the easiest example to illustrate is the Infinite Tsukuyomi, a Genjutsu that was used to enslave mankind thousands of years ago, long before humans were gifted the ability to create chakra By Hagoromo and by proxy long before humans likely had a chakra system within their anatomy. However, this type of genjutsu isn't restricted solely to just that jutsu. It has been replicated by more pedestrian genjutsu Like Kabuto’s sleep genjutsu that affected an entire stadium of normal citizens or Itachi using genjutsu to control a regular woman.
These examples are important to highlight because normal people in naruto do not passively have large amounts of chakra flowing through them, specifically not the amounts that are needed for genjutsu chakra needs to be consciously created by mixing your physical and spiritual energy, so while everyone can make chakra they don't have it running through their system 24/7, at best they have small amounts located at their centre. This is exacerbated by the fact that's it’s extremely hard to actually get chakra to flow to specific parts of your body away from the centre, as a reference this is how shinobi look when they are not focusing chakra in specific parts] of their system let alone normal people, the discrepancy between normal people and shinobi is also further explored in the Shikamaru novel.
[https://imgur.com/PQRLK5s Scan 1]
[https://imgur.com/qCwRERA Scan 2]
However, this premise, in turn, has branched into different types of arguments so let's tackle them one by one.
'“ This does not Particularly matter if people don't themselves have chakra because chakra is still being sent into them"
This one isn't Super important to the overall point but I thought I'd discuss it anyway in which case this is Partially true, sharingan Genjutsu actively pours chakra into the enemy to take control of their senses, however more common genjutsu affects the senses to control the chakra already inside the person, yet these people still fall prey to the effects of Genjutsu despite actively not having chakra poured into them or having the required amount of chakra to control their flow, the implications here support the premise that Genjutsu is first and foremost sensory manipulation before chakra manipulation and that the latter is simply a consequence of the former as opposed to an intrinsic mechanic of the jutsu. It also supports the argument of Jiraiya’s statement being contextual to Shinobi’s who actually do have chakra flowing constantly within them during combat.
"Even if the characters send chakra into their opponents it wouldn't work because people outside naruto dont have an energy system connected to their nervous system which is what is required for the jutsu to take effect”'
This is Incorrect, this limitation is never established within the series and is entirely assumed based on a statement that infers a different meaning with a genjutsu mechanic that's entirely different from what the Sharingan genjutsu does, the only connecting tissue here is that they both happen to be called genjutsu. Another issue with this argument is that it adds characteristics to the chakra pathway system solely based on the fact that it’s connected to the actual thing that reproduces those characteristics, this doesn't really make a lot of sense because regardless of your stance of when the manipulation takes place, the fact of the matter is that it’s still the physical senses that are producing those effects, chakra is merely the catalyst and if you can replace that catalyst with something that can replicate the same effect then it really doesn't matter.
However, the biggest oversight this argument makes is that the mechanic of sending chakra into your opponent's eyes to take control of their chakra system involves the user's chakra flowing through the nervous system to connect to the chakra pathway anyway. It’s particularly egregious when Shinobi themselves have a specific ability called chakra flow which allows them to flow chakra into a variety of things, ranging from wood,steel,water,flesh,corpses ect yet we are expected to draw the line at the nervous system a feat that chakra has objectively demonstrated to do just from the opposite end of what this argument assumes. It's the equivalent of arguing that it's impossible to get nutrients into a man with no mouth despite the existence of IV's
While I feel that this topic should be put to rest, I should also mention that the fact that the Sharingan can affect tailed beasts while they are sealed in their host and lack a physical form is also fairly strong supporting evidence, while not inherently impressive because tailed beasts are entirely made out of chakra and thus likely easier to control than having to manipulate through a specific medium it does still dismiss the idea that it’s the chakra system’s unique anatomical position that allows genjutsu to work as opposed to what the system is carrying (chakra) something that can be replicated without the need for a pathway.
“Kurama can knead chakra which likely implies he has chakra network of some kind”
* Being able to build up chakra isn't evidence of a chakra network, because the chakra pathway doesn't create chakra it distributes it. You don't need to distribute it when your entire being is made out of chakra.
* You don't even need the chakra system to inherently channel and distribute chakra or even use ninjutsu, Sasori had an entirely artificial body with the only organic element being his heart and was doing very well for himself.
* Kurama was able to gather nature energy and create senjutsu while being a Chakra Avatar.
“Kurama can knead chakra which likely implies he has chakra network of some kind”
* Being able to build up chakra isn't evidence of a chakra network, because the chakra pathway doesn't create chakra it distributes it. You don't need to distribute it when your entire being is made out of chakra.
* You don't even need the chakra system to inherently channel and distribute chakra or even use ninjutsu, Sasori had an entirely artificial body with the only organic element being his heart and was doing very well for himself.
* Kurama was able to gather nature energy and create senjutsu while being a Chakra Avatar.
An excerpt was used as evidence that Sharingan Jutsu bypasses the need for a chakra pathway system, while the opposition argued that the mention of the chakra flow as evidence that it was needed even for the sharingan and that the only difference between the Mangekyo sharingan and the regular sharingan was the timeframe for the jutsu’s effect.
The issue with both of these interpretations is that it uses the term “Flow of chakra” as a synonym for the chakra pathway within someone, this isn't the case the term Flow of Chakra here is literally referring to the act of chakra flowing, it’s not a noun but a verb, we know this because the sentenced is attached to a larger one which is explaining the actions needed to perform the specific ability
“for the visual jutsu of a normal sharingan, your gaze has to intersect with
the gaze of your intended target to some degree. You need that direct action,
"and the flow of chakra.”
This is also because this is meant to contrast with what comes next
“But the Mangekyo sharingan allows me to sidestep all
that a bit. I just have to look at my target’s eyes, and I can pour my chakra in,
even if our gazes aren’t intersecting. And the amount of chakra is several
times more than with normal sharingan. So the target falls into the visual
jutsu instantly.”
Instead of requiring the gaze to intersect the user can now freely perform the genjutsu as long as they can see their target’s eyes, the Mangekyo also increases the amount of chakra improving the potency of the jutsu allowing the victim fall instantly into the genjutsu.
This Part of the sentence “and I can pour my chakra in,even if our gazes aren’t intersecting”
is referring to the same thing as “and the flow of chakra” in the earlier sentence because they are referring to the same action, the only difference is the removal of the limitations of the gaze and the chakra amount.
All that this proves is that Sharingan genjutsu is sent into the eyes of the target and awakening the Mangekyo gives you access to more chakra that makes the Jutsu deadlier. Nothing more and nothing less.
The issue with both of these interpretations is that it uses the term “Flow of chakra” as a synonym for the chakra pathway within someone, this isn't the case the term Flow of Chakra here is literally referring to the act of chakra flowing, it’s not a noun but a verb, we know this because the sentenced is attached to a larger one which is explaining the actions needed to perform the specific ability
“for the visual jutsu of a normal sharingan, your gaze has to intersect with
the gaze of your intended target to some degree. You need that direct action,
"and the flow of chakra.”
This is also because this is meant to contrast with what comes next
“But the Mangekyo sharingan allows me to sidestep all
that a bit. I just have to look at my target’s eyes, and I can pour my chakra in,
even if our gazes aren’t intersecting. And the amount of chakra is several
times more than with normal sharingan. So the target falls into the visual
jutsu instantly.”
Instead of requiring the gaze to intersect the user can now freely perform the genjutsu as long as they can see their target’s eyes, the Mangekyo also increases the amount of chakra improving the potency of the jutsu allowing the victim fall instantly into the genjutsu.
This Part of the sentence “and I can pour my chakra in,even if our gazes aren’t intersecting”
is referring to the same thing as “and the flow of chakra” in the earlier sentence because they are referring to the same action, the only difference is the removal of the limitations of the gaze and the chakra amount.
All that this proves is that Sharingan genjutsu is sent into the eyes of the target and awakening the Mangekyo gives you access to more chakra that makes the Jutsu deadlier. Nothing more and nothing less.
Genjutsu should work as long as one of two criteria are met, the person in question has senses tied to a Physical body or is made out of energy that can be equalized to chakra, of course, how effective the genjutsu is will entirely rely on a case to case basis, either the specific genjutsu, the person performing the ability and how it matches with other verse mechanics. however, the bigger point here is that not having chakra or a chakra pathway system does not give you Inherent resistance to Genjutsu.
'''Post Credit Scene'''
Next CRT
Agree: 19 (UchihaSlayer,Lordtracer,God900,Arckuroi,Rocker, AdNiBN002,Kidkinsey,animesfreaks2,Blastx2,Baken384,joshpiece,gokusparkle,Naruriasuzumaki, Painto12,Roygundam,XSoulofcinderx,Darkdragonmedeus,The_Alxhemist,XXKingxx69)
Disagree: (jieldre)Neutral: 1 (LordGriffin9000,Loyd)
Last edited:
good job!
^
