- 10,901
- 14,204
Hello everyone, I hope you're all having a wonderful day because it's about to get a whole lot worse/better depending on which side of this fence you stand.
Despite what the bold title may suggest, I'm not here today to spite anyone or cause any trouble. On the contrary, my main aim with this thread is to actually help the verse finally reach a consensus in regards to one of the most polarizing topics in the fandom. Every revision thread inevitably devolves into a pointless debate about this very subject at some point, causing derailment, disagreements, and leaving the verse in a scaling limbo. Well, no more. We will settle this for good, and hopefully reach a unanimous, or nearly unanimous, agreement on this subject. If that happens, it'll make future revisions so much simpler, and will actually open up more options for the verse to finally be fixed and accurately rated.This will be the first in a series of CRTs marking the beginning of the long, LONG, awaited Naruto revisions. This may not be a thread that actually revise anything per se, but if it's accepted, it will potentially shape all of the future revision CRTs. Needless to say, this might be the most vital one of all. I have researched and worked on this thread for nearly a month at this point, and I hope for nothing more than a civil, friendly, and productive discussion that is free of biases and only aimed at helping to fix the verse and make scaling it easier, not more convoluted and contrived.
This will be a lengthy one, so please bear with me and read everything carefully. There's also a lot of Imgur galleries linked, so I also recommend going through them all in order to grasp the full context of everything.
Without further adieu, LESSSSSSSSSSSSSSGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The nature of Chakra:
Chakra is the source of energy for a Jutsu’s activation, and as I'll be attempting to prove here today, also a means for Shinobi to greatly enhance their physical capabilities. Moreover, we will also cover the nature of Chakra as a universal energy system, the components of Chakra, Taijutsu vs Ninjutsu, Examples, Counterarguments, and much more in between.To quote the first Databook:
As both the Databook and Manga described it, Chakra is comprised of two components: Mental/Spiritual energy + Physical/Bodily energy. (Please go over the entire gallery for full context and explanations)
These two components are ever present, circulating through a Shinobi's Chakra Pathway System at all times, and are collectively referred to as 'Stamina' (Essentially synonymous with 'Chakra reserves'). The physical energy component of chakra/stamina, which is produced by the body's cells, can be strengthened through physical training. The mental/spiritual component on the other hand can be developed through meditation, mental training, studying, and experience. The development of one or both of the components will lead to more stamina, and ultimately stronger chakra. Of course, the inverse is also true. Gaining more raw chakra through any means (Such as gaining access to Tailed-Beast chakra for instance) would lead to more stamina as a result.
So, what is the difference between 'Stamina' and 'Chakra'? Well, they are very closely related, and are even occasionally used interchangeably. Stamina, or chakra reserves, are the fuel with which chakra is created. In essence, the mental and physical energies that comprise Stamina are internally mixed (often referred to as 'Kneading Chakra') in order to create Chakra, which is then used for Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, or whatever else a Ninja needs at the time. So in a sense, they are two sides of the same coin. Stamina is, more or less, Chakra in its passive form while its circulating around the Ninja's Pathway System, while 'Chakra' is the actively kneaded form of chakra that is then transformed or shaped into different techniques such as Ninjutsu or Genjutsu. On the other hand, 'Stamina' is utilized for Taijutsu and physical activities.
Now, onto Ninjutsu vs Taijutsu.....
Simply put, Ninjutsu utilizes 'Chakra', while Taijutsu utilizes 'Stamina'. Both of them rely on the same energy source, but in different forms. Taijutsu utilizes the body's energy in Stamina in order to perform techniques, enhance one's strikes and defenses, and perform superhuman physical feats. Ninjutsu on the other hand utilizes kneaded, shaped, and/or transformed 'Chakra' in order achieve various effects that are not otherwise physically possible such as walking on water, manipulating elements, creating illusions, etc...
Taijutsu relying on 'Stamina' instead of 'Chakra' helps us prove and understand a few key things. For starters, we know through Rock Lee (and other examples as well) that one's Taijutsu, and thus Stamina/Chakra, improves and becomes stronger through physical training. This ties into my earlier point about physical training enhancing the physical aspect of Stamina/Chakra. This explains how Ninja are just naturally far stronger than any regular human, even with no or minimal training, as simply having a Chakra Pathway System where the physical and mental energies flow is more than enough to empower them and allow them to perform superhuman feats of strength, speed, endurance, and the like. This also helps us explain how physical training, improving one's chakra control, and/or gaining more raw chakra can all make a Ninja much stronger, as they either translate to more stamina/chakra, or better control of said stamina/chakra. This makes sense, since both Ninjutsu and Taijutsu rely on the same energy source, but just utilized differently.
Chakra/Stamina simply flowing through objects or people (namely their chakra pathway systems) has been consistently shown to significantly empower them. Of course, chakra being concentrated in specific regions also enhances certain abilities further such as concentrating chakra at the user's feet to enhance speed or in their arms to enhance punching power. So there's a somewhat passive enhancement in the form of the stamina/chakra flowing through the chakra network, and then there's more active enhancements such as shuunshin for instance.
(Source of the above DB quotes: Narutoversity)
Below I'll go over numerous examples where Chakra has directly been shown or stated to enhance a user's physical abilities. This will also serve to prove that Shinobi are perfectly capable of enhancing their capabilities with chakra very frequently and consistently.
Note: There are obviously numerous examples of Chakra greatly enhancing Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, but this is not necessarily important to highlight for the purposes of this thread and is pretty much self-explanatory and unanimously agreed upon to be the case. As such, I will mainly focus on chakra enhancing physical capabilities for the most part.
Examples of Chakra Enhancement:
- Naruto: He consistently gains massive power boosts as he gains access to more and/or stronger chakra. I will list some of the more prominent examples below for convenience, as there's simply way too many to count here.
- Juugo's Curse Mark: Juugo's Curse Mark functions exactly the same as Sage Mode, more or less. It allows him to naturally absorb Senjutsu Chakra from the surroundings to grant himself a significant increase in all of his stats. This article from Narutoversity greatly illustrates how it functions and the mechanics behind it. It's derivative, Orochimaru's Cursed Seal, functions in much the same way, with the only difference that its fuel is Orochimaru's own Senjutsu Chakra instead of directly absorbing it from nature. There are many instances that greatly showcase the amp, but I feel like the most straightforward one is when Sasuke was first adapting to the Cursed Seal of Heaven's power in his fight against Naruto, and we see his physical abilities dramatically increase to the point of completely dominating Naruto physically, and even blitzing him at one point. This is a very clear cut example of a chakra increase enhancing physical abilities, which even Sasuke acknowledges as his power rapidly increasing.
- Tsunade and Sakura's Chakra Enhanced Strength: Tsunade and Sakura employ very fine and delicate chakra control in order to enhance their fists with maximum chakra at a rapid pace in order to enhance their strength dramatically and achieve almost unparalleled destructive power.
- Byakugo no Jutsu: This technique releases the chakra that Tsunade has been accumulating on her forehead using her "Strength of a Hundred Seal" Jutsu, which results in a dramatic boost to her power; enough to severely damage Uchiha Madara, punch a hole through his torso, destroy his Susano'o, and even boast a strength superior to that of an Ohnoki Enhanced 4th Raikage. Another example of this is when Sakura's own strength increased dramatically when she stopped having to accumulate chakra for the "Strength of a Hundred Seal", essentially giving her access to more of her chakra. Two very clear examples of chakra greatly enhancing physical abilities.
- Shapeshifting Technique: This technique allows the caster to allot sacrificial bodies a portion of their or another person's chakra, which results in the creation of an identical clone. The catch is that the limited chakra allocation also limits the clone's strength and the type of Jutsu they can use. Essentially, more proof that more chakra grants more power.
- Itachi's Chakra Enhanced Strength: In Itachi Shinden: Book of Bright Light, a 5 year old Itachi was able to enhance his fist with chakra in order to smash a massive boulder to pieces. This was attributed to him simply keeping up with his basic Ninja training, further cementing that this is merely a basic Ninja skill, which explains why most, if not all, Genin can perform superhuman feats and completely outclass regular humans.
- Kaguya: After absorbing more chakra from the Shinobi trapped within the IT, Kaguya's strength and speed increased significantly.
- Eight Gates: The Eight Gates function by removing the body's natural chakra inhibitors, which gradually unlocks more and more chakra that then flows directly in the users' Chakra Pathway System, resulting in dramatic increase in the user's physical abilities. This is an extremely clear cut example of more chakra resulting in physical enhancement, even when the two main users of this ability don't have much aptitude for delicate chakra control or Ninjutsu, but are instead Taijustu experts.
- Pain/Nagato: Pain's power at any given point is determined by how many bodies are active at a time and how far they are from Nagato. This is due to Nagato's chakra being distributed among the 6 bodies, so him focusing his chakra on less bodies increases their power overall. This culminates when he goes down to a single body, as was the case with Tendo needing to be the only one active in order to perform the CST. Tendo's (and the other Paths' such as the Preta Path) physical capabilities also improved significantly, as he was capable of withstanding attacks from Sage Mode and KN6 Naruto, when Sage Naruto previously one-shot multiple Paths with the greatest of ease. Distance also greatly affect's Pain's power, as he functions by transmitting Nagato's chakra to the bodies like a sort of signal. So the closer the receivers are to Nagato, the stronger the signal, and thus the stronger the chakra received. Nagato's peak is when he operates with his own body, as he no longer needs to split his chakra among different bodies or suffer from weak chakra signals. Naruto makes note of this when he faces Edo Nagato during the War Arc, noting that both his power and Jutsu are far stronger now that he doesn't operate with 6 dead bodies and is instead facing them himself.
- Rock Lee: Contrary to popular belief, Lee actually can and does use Chakra. He showcased this when he used chakra to enhance his arms in order to block Sasuke's kick, which Sasuke makes note of as he noticed his chakra had changed from when he was getting beat up by the other Genin earlier. His durability had clearly improved since he was beaten to the point of bleeding earlier, but is now completely unfazed by a head on kick from the same guy in addition to Sasuke. Additionally, he showcased the minimum level of Chakra control required by all Shinobi due to being able to stand and walk on water, and likely other surfaces as well. So, yes, Lee can create and control Chakra for a variety of purposes; he just doesn't have the skill for subtly shaping and/or transforming it to create Jutsu of any kind. Furthermore, his Front Lotus is a technique that greatly increases his strength and speed as we saw against Sasuke and Dosu, both of whom were able to react to his base form, but not when he opened the 1st Gate in order to use the Front Lotus. As Guy described it, the technique works by allowing the user to access and use all of his chakra and let it flow through their chakra pathway system, which the body naturally inhibits, resulting in a great boost to all physical attributes. This is as clear cut as it comes.
- Raiton Armor: The Raikage is capable of enhancing his speed, power, reflexes, and durability significantly with Raiton Chakra. The Raiton chakra emphasizes speed, reflexes, and durability, but it has been shown and stated that as the speed increases, so does the user's power.
- Tailed Beast Chakra Drug: The drug, which is based on Naruto's Tailed-Beast cloak, increases the number of tails, and thus enhances the power, speed, durability, and Ninjutsu of the user with Tailed-Beast Chakra proportional to their own chakra levels.
- Shuunshin no Jutus: A basic and common, D-rank, Ninja technique that functions by enhancing the legs and feet with chakra to greatly enhance the user's speed.
- Water Clone Technique: Water Clones hold only a tenth of the original's strength.
- Jigen: Jigen absorbed Ten-tails Chakra in preparation to his going to infiltrate Konoha, and fight Naruto and Sasuke. Additionally, having his chakra drained from his battle with Naruto and Sasuke severely weakened him.
- Kakashi Retsuden:
- KN0: Naruto himself described that when Kurama's chakra floods into his system, he gains incredible strength. In his fight against Neji, Kurama's chakra flooded through his chakra pathway system, which gave him an incredible strength and speed boost that allowed him to match Neji who'd been thrashing him thoroughly up to that point. In his fight against Sasuke, Kurama's chakra increased Naruto's power and speed to such an extent that he completely overwhelmed Sasuke, even though he was previously losing and getting overwhelmed himself. This only changed when Sasuke got a power-up of his own, in the form of his 3rd Sharingan Tomoe.
- KN1: Blitzed and overpowered sick Orochimaru with ease.
- KN3: Effortlessly demolished Kabuto with a simple roar, and was even able to rip off Orochimaru's arm.
- KN4: Became so powerful in this state to the point of being able to completely overwhelm a sick Orochimaru, and was also able to mortally wound Jiraiya earlier during their training.
- Sage Mode: Naruto gains significant amps in all facets when he enhances himself with Sage Chakra/Natural energy, which we clearly saw on multiple accounts; the most notable instance being when he overpowered Tendo Pain immediately after being on the backend of Pain's assault when he was in base form.
- KN6: Withstood and overpowered Pain's Shinra Tensei, which had utterly overpowered SM Naruto previously even when Pain was weaker.
- KCM: Having access to more of Kurama's chakra than ever before has enhanced Naruto's abilities to the point of being able to keep up with the Raikage's speed and withstand attacks from him, tussle with Edo Itachi in h2h and withstand a Shinra Tensei from Nagato, match Rinnegan Obito and withstand many of his Edo Jinchuriki's assaults head on, have enough physical strength to stop Four-Tails from crushing him with his bite or hand, and even stagger the Gedo Mazo with a punch alongside Gyuki. Also worth noting that Naruto got weaker as his chakra gradually decreased from protecting the Alliance as noted by Obito.
- KCM2: Upon gaining access to Kurama's full unrestricted chakra reserves, Naruto's abilities were enhanced to such a degree that he was able to physically intercept and deflect 5 incoming Biju Bombs, shatter Obito's mask with a Rasengan, physically break his Mokuton and overpower him with a headbutt, and have enough raw speed to intercept both Madara and Obito's assaults from a fair distance away.
- Alliance Kyuubi Chakra: Naruto giving his transformed Kyuubi Chakra to the Alliance members has been shown to dramatically increase all of their abilities, including their physical abilities; mainly durability and Jutsu potency have been emphasized, but pretty much all assets have received a power boost as I'll show. Kakashi gained enough physical strength to physically harm Obito with his punches, and even match him in battle later on when he receives more chakra, even though he was being dominated by him prior to the boost. Kakashi's Kamui also received a massive power boost, being able to teleport objects as large as Eight-Tails in the heat of battle successfully now. Other alliance members have also gained massive power boosts in their own right. Hinata's Air Palm became powerful enough to push back one of the Ten-Tails' tentacle arms, Choji and Choza grew powerful enough to hold down the Ten-Tails' arms (even though they previously had major issues contending with just the Gedo Mazo), Shikamaru's Shadow Possession became strong enough to temporarily paralyze the Ten-Tails when he received help from other Nara clan members, and base Rock Lee became fast and strong enough to blitz and bisect Madara with a kick. Additionally, the cloaks are durable enough to withstand enormous Katons from Obito and Madara, as well as attacks from Madara's Susano'o and Obito's Kamui arsenal.
- The Last: BSM Naruto concentrated his chakra in his arm in order to overpower Toneri's GWRE and one-shot him.
- Juugo's Curse Mark: Juugo's Curse Mark functions exactly the same as Sage Mode, more or less. It allows him to naturally absorb Senjutsu Chakra from the surroundings to grant himself a significant increase in all of his stats. This article from Narutoversity greatly illustrates how it functions and the mechanics behind it. It's derivative, Orochimaru's Cursed Seal, functions in much the same way, with the only difference that its fuel is Orochimaru's own Senjutsu Chakra instead of directly absorbing it from nature. There are many instances that greatly showcase the amp, but I feel like the most straightforward one is when Sasuke was first adapting to the Cursed Seal of Heaven's power in his fight against Naruto, and we see his physical abilities dramatically increase to the point of completely dominating Naruto physically, and even blitzing him at one point. This is a very clear cut example of a chakra increase enhancing physical abilities, which even Sasuke acknowledges as his power rapidly increasing.
- Tsunade and Sakura's Chakra Enhanced Strength: Tsunade and Sakura employ very fine and delicate chakra control in order to enhance their fists with maximum chakra at a rapid pace in order to enhance their strength dramatically and achieve almost unparalleled destructive power.
- Byakugo no Jutsu: This technique releases the chakra that Tsunade has been accumulating on her forehead using her "Strength of a Hundred Seal" Jutsu, which results in a dramatic boost to her power; enough to severely damage Uchiha Madara, punch a hole through his torso, destroy his Susano'o, and even boast a strength superior to that of an Ohnoki Enhanced 4th Raikage. Another example of this is when Sakura's own strength increased dramatically when she stopped having to accumulate chakra for the "Strength of a Hundred Seal", essentially giving her access to more of her chakra. Two very clear examples of chakra greatly enhancing physical abilities.
- Shapeshifting Technique: This technique allows the caster to allot sacrificial bodies a portion of their or another person's chakra, which results in the creation of an identical clone. The catch is that the limited chakra allocation also limits the clone's strength and the type of Jutsu they can use. Essentially, more proof that more chakra grants more power.
- Itachi's Chakra Enhanced Strength: In Itachi Shinden: Book of Bright Light, a 5 year old Itachi was able to enhance his fist with chakra in order to smash a massive boulder to pieces. This was attributed to him simply keeping up with his basic Ninja training, further cementing that this is merely a basic Ninja skill, which explains why most, if not all, Genin can perform superhuman feats and completely outclass regular humans.
- Kaguya: After absorbing more chakra from the Shinobi trapped within the IT, Kaguya's strength and speed increased significantly.
- Eight Gates: The Eight Gates function by removing the body's natural chakra inhibitors, which gradually unlocks more and more chakra that then flows directly in the users' Chakra Pathway System, resulting in dramatic increase in the user's physical abilities. This is an extremely clear cut example of more chakra resulting in physical enhancement, even when the two main users of this ability don't have much aptitude for delicate chakra control or Ninjutsu, but are instead Taijustu experts.
- Pain/Nagato: Pain's power at any given point is determined by how many bodies are active at a time and how far they are from Nagato. This is due to Nagato's chakra being distributed among the 6 bodies, so him focusing his chakra on less bodies increases their power overall. This culminates when he goes down to a single body, as was the case with Tendo needing to be the only one active in order to perform the CST. Tendo's (and the other Paths' such as the Preta Path) physical capabilities also improved significantly, as he was capable of withstanding attacks from Sage Mode and KN6 Naruto, when Sage Naruto previously one-shot multiple Paths with the greatest of ease. Distance also greatly affect's Pain's power, as he functions by transmitting Nagato's chakra to the bodies like a sort of signal. So the closer the receivers are to Nagato, the stronger the signal, and thus the stronger the chakra received. Nagato's peak is when he operates with his own body, as he no longer needs to split his chakra among different bodies or suffer from weak chakra signals. Naruto makes note of this when he faces Edo Nagato during the War Arc, noting that both his power and Jutsu are far stronger now that he doesn't operate with 6 dead bodies and is instead facing them himself.
- Rock Lee: Contrary to popular belief, Lee actually can and does use Chakra. He showcased this when he used chakra to enhance his arms in order to block Sasuke's kick, which Sasuke makes note of as he noticed his chakra had changed from when he was getting beat up by the other Genin earlier. His durability had clearly improved since he was beaten to the point of bleeding earlier, but is now completely unfazed by a head on kick from the same guy in addition to Sasuke. Additionally, he showcased the minimum level of Chakra control required by all Shinobi due to being able to stand and walk on water, and likely other surfaces as well. So, yes, Lee can create and control Chakra for a variety of purposes; he just doesn't have the skill for subtly shaping and/or transforming it to create Jutsu of any kind. Furthermore, his Front Lotus is a technique that greatly increases his strength and speed as we saw against Sasuke and Dosu, both of whom were able to react to his base form, but not when he opened the 1st Gate in order to use the Front Lotus. As Guy described it, the technique works by allowing the user to access and use all of his chakra and let it flow through their chakra pathway system, which the body naturally inhibits, resulting in a great boost to all physical attributes. This is as clear cut as it comes.
- Raiton Armor: The Raikage is capable of enhancing his speed, power, reflexes, and durability significantly with Raiton Chakra. The Raiton chakra emphasizes speed, reflexes, and durability, but it has been shown and stated that as the speed increases, so does the user's power.
- Tailed Beast Chakra Drug: The drug, which is based on Naruto's Tailed-Beast cloak, increases the number of tails, and thus enhances the power, speed, durability, and Ninjutsu of the user with Tailed-Beast Chakra proportional to their own chakra levels.
- Shuunshin no Jutus: A basic and common, D-rank, Ninja technique that functions by enhancing the legs and feet with chakra to greatly enhance the user's speed.
- Water Clone Technique: Water Clones hold only a tenth of the original's strength.
- Jigen: Jigen absorbed Ten-tails Chakra in preparation to his going to infiltrate Konoha, and fight Naruto and Sasuke. Additionally, having his chakra drained from his battle with Naruto and Sasuke severely weakened him.
- Kakashi Retsuden:
- Kakashi can cloak his body in "Battle spirit", or chakra, which caused him to get overpowered by his assailants and get easily restrained.
- Ninja who can mold chakra can send it around their bodies for various purposes.
- Rahyo's technique, which collected great amounts of chakra in his arms, greatly improved his power.
- Kakashi can manipulate and concentrate the chakra circulating through his entire body.
- Kakashi molded his chakra in order to strengthen his arms for the purpose of climbing.
Countering the Counters:
- If Chakra is used to enhance AP, then how come Kid and Part 2 Naruto wasn't the strongest character at the time? He had way more chakra than everyone else! He had more chakra as Kakashi and about as much as Kisame, but was far weaker than both, so obviously chakra has no bearing on AP!
- Naruto had more chakra than most, true, but he had little to no control over it. His aptitude for chakra control was already far below his peers, Sasuke and especially Sakura. This was in great part due to the Nine-Tails and its seal interfering heavily with his chakra control and making it far worse than it normally would be. Additionally, Kakashi described both his and Sasuke's massive chakra reserves as untapped reserves that required training to properly draw out, meaning that even without the Nine-Tails disrupting Naruto's ability to control chakra, he still had a long way to go before fully mastering his abilities anyway.
- Another relevant detail is that he doesn't always have access to the Nine-Tails enormous chakra reserves, because it's, well, sealed away. As I've proven above, whenever some of his chakra does leak, it offers Naruto incredible enhancements in all categories, be it physical stats or Ninjutsu. The more chakra that gets released, the stronger he becomes in proportion. It's very simple.
- All in all, Naruto is about as much of an exception as it comes, so using him as some sort of example that should apply to what regular Shinobi can or cannot do is, quite frankly, absurd and very questionable. Naruto is very clearly his own thing, and should be treated as such.
- Note: To further prove my point about the Nine-Tails' seal disrupting his ability to manipulate and control chakra properly, we directly see a massive shift in his abilities to control and manipulate chakra after he befriended and unsealed Kurama. Not only did his abilities improve drastically, and become much stronger in every conceivable way, but he also showed much better chakra control and manipulation. He was able to transform and transfer his and Kurama's chakra to thousands of other Shinobi without them suffering any adverse effects and gaining incredible boosts to their abilities; a feat that made Kurama declare that Naruto's skills surpassed those of Minato and Kushina. He was also now able to perform one handed Rasengans and Rasenshurikens without much trouble, a testament to how much his chakra control has improved.
- This is only partially true. Yes, Neji (and other top tier Hyuuga) are one of the rare few who can outwardly emit chakra from their entire bodies, while most Shinobi usually only do so in specific regions such as the hands or feet. However, this has absolutely nothing to do with chakra enhancement, or the chakra circulating through the pathways increasing in volume or strength, which does not involve outwardly emitting chakra like Neji does. Instead, the chakra is contained within the chakra pathways or enveloping a shinobi's body, not emitted outwards.
- Kisame is a character that's often used to debunk chakra enhancing physical capabilities or having any bearing on AP, much like Naruto. Also much like Naruto, people are often either misinformed or dishonest with their arguments. First of all, he's not actually stated to literally have Biju level chakra or power. In his fight against B, it was clearly explained that his title is mainly due to Samehada's ability to absorb an opponent's chakra and transfer it to Kisame in order to replenish his stamina, heal his wounds, and give him more strength while weakening his opponent; effectively giving the illusion that he has nearly unlimited chakra reserves like those of a Biju. Of course, his natural chakra reserves are still massive, being compared to those of a Jinchuriki and directly to those of Naruto on a few occasions, but in both of those cases that is still not quite Biju level, but a peg below at Jinchuriki level chakra reserves.
- An important thing to make not of is that the chakra Samehada absorbs is NOT passively transferred to Kisame, but he has to manually take it for himself from Samehada. The only way to take all the power for himself directly is by fusing with Samehada, which greatly increases his abilities as it gives him direct access to all of the chakra that Samehada stole and stored. This further cements that his 'Biju level' status really is mainly thanks to that blade. Kisame's power output was also described to be Jinchuriki level when he fuses with Samehada, which is consistent with both his performance against V2 Bee, where even Gyuki thought that he'd be able to overpower and kill B which he almost did, and the conclusions I already presented here. So, yeah, no Biju level shenanigans I'm afraid.
- Ahhh, where to begin? How about the fact that this is a classic example of the Association Fallacy? Saying 'Tsunade can do X, therefor nobody else can!' is the equivalent of me making the claim that because notable and famed Shuunshin users like the Raikage, Shisui, Minato, and KCM Naruto exist, then nobody else can use this common D-rank Jutsu. It's frankly absurd. Tsunade and Sakura excel at enhancing their strength with chakra, and may very well be the absolute best at it due to their supreme chakra control, but that doesn't mean that others can't replicate the ability or that the established mechanics of the verse don't apply just because certain characters are 'special'. Chakra can be, and is used to enhance physical capabilities; it just so happens that not many people can do it on the scale or with as much proficiency as Tsunade and Sakura. This brings me to my next point.
- Tsunade and Sakura ARE special, but not because they CAN enhance their physical abilities with chakra. They are special due to their proficiency with it, and due to their trademark 'Monster Strength'. Their trademark strength is achieved through the rapid and fine control of chakra to instantly apply their maximum chakra output at the moment of impact to achieve the maximum level of power and damage. This is obviously a bit more skillful than what most Shinobi do, and as a result, Tsunade and Sakura's strikes usually having far higher AOE and causing more damage to the environment than most other characters. This is, more than anything, meant to display the gap between them and the rest of the shinobi world when it comes to the application of this ability. So like I said before, in a similar manner to the Raikage and Shisui excelling with the Body Flicker technique, so does Tsunade and Sakura with enhancing their strength through chakra.
- Uhhh, yeah, kinda. I've already outlined up above the difference between Chakra and 'Stamina'. Ninjutsu and Genjutsu utilize Chakra, essentially molded Stamina, while Taijutsu directly utilizes Stamina, or "raw" chakra. To use the Danzo example, he likely had Chakra molded and ready to use for some Ninjutsu in case he needs it, so when he used Taijutsu to "conserve his chakra", he utilized stamina instead to keep that molded chakra ready for Ninjutsu use whenever the need arises, but it still wasn't exactly a free action or anything. As I've also explained, even Taijutsu experts like Lee and Guy use 'Chakra', but it's just in the form of Stamina, not molded or transformed for the purposes of Ninjutsu or Genjutsu; they instead utilize the Stamina/chakra that's already running through their chakra pathways that they strengthen through physical training. (I know the whole stamina/chakra thing is confusing, but that's because the series almost always uses both interchangeably, and only rarely is the difference obvious outside of the initial explanations we got from Ebisu and Sakura)
- So yeah, uhhh, Taijutsu "doesn't use chakra", buuuuuuuuuuuut it also kinda does lol. As I've extensively proven above, having more/stronger chakra running through your chakra pathways results in great amps to all categories, which we've seen with Sage Mode, the Eight Gates, general physical or chakra control training, Biju Chakra, and more.
- This is a pretty understandable concern. Basically, there's a lot of techniques that are just blatantly and objectively above the user physically, sometimes by an extremely wide margin. Examples include, but obviously not limited to, Kakashi's Raikiri and Deidara's Bombs. An obvious counter would be "Well, if Chakra dictates AP, then how come certain techniques are objectively above the character's regular capabilities? Shouldn't their power be more consistent and on the same level with most of their techniques?". These "Ace Techniques", however, differ from even regular Ninjutsu, not just physicals. They are usually FAR above everything in a character's arsenal, be it Ninjutsu or Taijutsu, and there's usually a very clear discernable reason for that being the case beyond raw power. I'll go over a few prominent "special moves" in hopes of explaining how they differ from regular techniques, and why their existence does NOT contradict the premise of this thread.
- Let's start with Kakashi's Raikiri. It has always been portrayed as far superior to his regular abilities in general. For instance, it allowed him to easily pierce the likes of Haku, Kakuzu, Pain, the Edo Jinchuriki, and Obito just to name a few. All of these are character that were clearly established as either comparable to or superior to Kakashi, yet the Raikiri went through all of them like hot knife through butter. Why is that? To me the answer is obvious. The Raikiri functions by focusing a user's chakra in a single point and making use of Raiton chakra's affinity for increased piercing and cutting power to achieve the maximum piercing power possible for Kakashi to muster. It is mechanically designed to be the ultimate piercing spear, similar to the 3rd Raikage's Hell Stab, and pierce it does. It really is that simple, the technique is just designed to magnify the user's piercing power at a single point, and it does just that.
- Deidara has stated that anything above C1 can physically harm him. This is also consistent with him being physically harmed by an exhausted base Sasuke and KN0 Naruto, when his C2 level bombs can severely injure CS2 Sasuke. I obviously don't even need to bring up his stronger bombs', such as C3 and C0, feats. Point being, there really is no way to scale his physicals to his stronger bombs in any way shape or form. So how does this make sense? Well, Deidara's bombs aren't like regular Ninjutsu in the sense that it doesn't take X amount of chakra and then transfer it into an equivalent technique residing in one of the 5 Natures. Instead it takes a designated level of chakra, ranging from C1 to C4/0, and through some unknown means and mechanics, transforms it into increasingly larger explosions. This is just.......magic. It doesn't behave or function like regular Genjutsu, and we literally know nothing about how Deidara's ability works besides the fact that each subsequent chakra signature creates a bigger and more dangerous explosion (in the case of C4 it's just pure hax). As such, it's clearly more of an exception than anything; simply something unique to Deidara's ability that shouldn't really be used to judge how regular basic Ninjutsu behaves.
- Kaguya's ETSB probably comes to mind in this category of techniques. It is so far above anything else displayed in the verse, yet it uses an amount of chakra that is not necessarily unique to Kaguya. As in, other characters on her level or above it should have a similar level of chakra reserves as the Shinobi Alliance she absorbed the chakra required for the technique from. So how does this make any level of sense? Well, once again, the answer lies in the mechanics of the technique. How does the ETSB destroy and recreate dimensions exactly? Well, it does it through a combination of gradually growing in size until it envelops the whole space and EE/Space-Time hax. The Ball literally grows slowly until it becomes the size of the dimension, so it's not like the attack is a simple chakra blast that just blows up a dimension or something; it's much more intricate than that. So once again, the technique has a special "gimmick" that makes it special beyond just raw power.
- Obviously there's way more examples, but this thread is already dragging on long enough, and I'm sure we all have places to be lol. I can provide more examples, but I trust everyone's intelligence enough to understand the gist of the concept. "Special Techniques" that go beyond the user's regular capabilities is not a concept unique to Naruto. It exists in nearly all battle manga, even those with blatantly universal energy systems. The fact that I have to go to such lengths to explain such a basic concept just goes to show the issue with this verse; everything is made infinitely more complicated and tedious than it needs to be, but alas, I am here to put an end to this debate anyway, so I might as well get it out of the way.
- An interesting point came to my attention some time ago, and it got me thinking: "If Chakra is directly linked to AP, then techniques like the Susano'o don't make much sense", let me explain. The Susano'o is almost always portrayed as massively stronger and more durable than the user's physical body, so if chakra = AP then how would that make any sense? Wouldn't Shinobi be naturally as strong as their Susano'o, or at least be able to physically amp themselves to such levels? Well, the answer is a resounding no. As we've seen with Sasuke, Shisui, and others for example, Dojutsu like the Mangekyo Sharingan have their own chakra pool that is not usable normally without the Dojutsu. They can't, for example, take the Susano'o chakra and use it for some other technique. That power is designated only for the Susano'o, Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or whatever else. The Dojutsu also offers more chakra and power for use in certain techniques than normal. The proof for this is the fact that characters can simply run out of their "Ocular Powers", but still have enough chakra to function, fight, and even use regular Ninjutsu. Let's go over some examples to help explain how it works.
- Itachi had run out, or nearly run out, of normal chakra throughout his long battle against Sasuke where he utilized a lot of techniques when his condition was already terrible and his reserves at an all time low. However, he still had the ability to use the Susano'o to save himself from Kirin, fight and seal Orochimaru, and then approach Sasuke to give him one final gift. After he ran out of that last ounce of Ocular Chakra he had access to, he simply dropped dead as you do when you completely run out of chakra.
- In Sasuke's case, he'd run out of his Ocular powers while fighting Kakashi, which caused him to undo his Susano'o and his Sharingan; however, he still had enough chakra to somewhat battle Kakashi and Team 7, and even use Ninjutsu like the Chidori. As an adult, his ocular powers were diminished to the point of not being able to use the EMS or Susano'o, but he was still capable of using certain non-draining techniques like Amenotejikara, regular Sahringan, and even regular Ninjutsu like the Fireball technique.
- So clearly, while Dojutsu do offer some strain on a user's chakra reserves and stamina, the power utilized by certain Dojutsu abilities is simply not possible to use outside of these abilities. It's like a different power source/pool that's only usable with these specific Dojutsu techniques.
- To start with, the statement only says that the user "becomes able to face physically stronger opponents", it also emphasizes the additional range advantage it can offer. It does NOT say that Ninjutsu is always superior in raw power to Taijutsu or that Ninja cannot use chakra to enhance themselves. What the entry is actually trying to convey is that Ninjutsu are extremely versatile, and have a variety of effects that are not possible to achieve physically, and in some cases, even contend with physically. For instance, many a Jutsu outright negate physical durability or offer advantages that are simply impossible to counter with raw physical might. Fire Style Jutsu can burn people, Water Style Jutsu can take away their terrain advantage or drown them, Mist can obstruct their vision, Wind can cut them, Lightning can paralyze and pierce them, and so on. The effects of Ninjutsu are varied, and the examples we can list are nearly countless, but I'm sure you all get the idea. Ninjutsu can of course offer higher AP than the user's regular abilities, but as we already covered those techniques are usually "special techniques" that offer certain advantages over even their regular Ninjutsu, let alone physical abilities. The Databook entry also doesn't contradict what I established already. Ninjutsu and Taijutsu operate on the same energy source inherently, but offer different utility with different pros and cons. Taijutsu is inherently faster and easier to use in combat than Ninjutsu, as you don't need to build up the chakra necessary to use Ninjutsu in the heat of battle. Instead, you just......physically attack your opponent and call it a day. On the other hand, Ninjutsu completely trumps Taijutsu in terms of range and versatility, and in some, raw power as well. Both have clearly defined advantages and disadvantages beyond one being simply stronger than the other, and both have uses depending on the situation.
- This interpretation, as I see it, is also exceedingly consistent with what is constantly portrayed in the manga. There's countless examples of comparable characters withstanding each other's Ninjutsu physically, and still being capable of harming each other physically later on. I'll list many examples below to illustrate this point. Of course, I'll try to stick to comparable characters, because it's obviously unfair to use a much stronger character tanking a weaker character's Jutsu and then overpowering them physically.
- Naruto physically counters Neji's Kaiten. I know it's technically Taijutsu, but it utilizes a lot of a person's chakra just like a Ninjutsu.
- KCM2 Naruto managed to push back and bruise Obito with a headbutt, despite Obito previously withstanding two of Naruto's Rasengans with little to no injury. This counts as a double feature, really. Obito can withstand Naruto's Ninjutsu, and Naruto can still harm him physically.
- Kakuzu can physically contend with and even overpower Kakashi, who can both withstand his Jutsu and match it with his own.
- Shinra Tensei is capable of overpowering Naruto's strongest Jutsu, the Rasenshuriken, with ease, yet Pain was able to withstand the recoil of one of his stronger STs with no real damage. Naruto was also capable of withstanding both Pain's ST and his physical attacks (albeit with visible pain in both cases, showing that both him and Pain are pretty close in power), and was also capable of physically overpowering Pain with varying degrees of success depending on how strong or weakened Pain was at the time.
- KN0 Naruto can withstand Sasuke's Jutsu, and both can harm each other physically and/or withstand each other's attacks at many points throughout the fight.
- Hebi Sasuke easily broke Yamato's Mokuton physically.
- Madara withstood SM Naruto's FRS, and he is physically comparable to the likes of Hashirama, with both of them being able to harm each other physically.
- Juubidara is capable of withstanding SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke's Jutsu, and Naruto can match him physically. Sasuke can also harm him with Jutsu and withstand attacks from him.
- Toneri and Naruto can withstand each other's Jutsu at many point during their fight, but can still physically contend with each other. When Naruto went all out with his final punch, he overpowered Toneri's strongest Jutsu.
- SPSM Naruto is capable of withstanding a Chidori to the face.
- Killer B can physically dispel Itachi's Katon, and both of them matched each other's blows later in the fight.
- An extremely exhausted and nearly out of chakra Tsunade physically deflects Madara's Katon.
- During the Sakura Hiden novel, Sakura was capable of physically withstanding and overpowering many of Kido's Jutsu such as his Raiton Jutsu and his Biju Bombs, but Kido was still capable of harming her physically on more than one occasion and vice versa.
- This one's pretty simple, so I'll keep it brief. Edo Tensei Zombies don't have an infinite volume of chakra, they have infinite stamina (like regular stamina, not Naruto 'Stamina' lol) as they lack the organic bodies that would feel fatigue, they also don't suffer from illnesses or technique related fatigue that they may have suffered from in life as we saw with Itachi. Their chakra reserves are not infinite, as we clearly saw that there is a cap to their maximum chakra volume; however their reserves are infinitely replenished. Let's think of it this way: We have a regular battery that provides 5000 Volts representing a regular alive Shinobi's chakra. Once that battery runs out, he dies, and he obviously can't exceed his maximum output. The only way to replenish his energy would be to recharge it, or wait until he recovers in a Shinobi's case. An Edo Tensei on the other hand would never run out of energy or need to recharge, but just like a regular Shinobi he also can't exceed his maximum output of 5000 V (or probably a bit less because Edo's are inferior, so let's say 4000 V).
- As we all know, Shadow Clones evenly distribute a user's chakra among the clones. This throws a bit of a wrench in this whole thing because as we've seen many times with Naruto, his clones can keep up with foes that are comparable to him. In Kid and Early Shippuden Naruto's cases, we can argue that because his chakra control is so abysmal, him having slightly less chakra probably would not affect his chakra that much; not to mention his clones really don't have the greatest of feats early on in the series, as they were mostly used for distractions or utility. His recovery rate has also been noted to be extraordinary, so any lost chakra would probably be replenished relatively quickly anyway.
- His clones got their best feats of all during the War Arc. His clone was able to somewhat combat the Reincarnated 3rd Raikage, though he was notably inferior to him. Later on, his KCM2 clone was able to blitz and intercept Obito and Madara's attacks. Another prominent instance is when his clones could contend with Madara's Limbo Clones, though they did seem to be somewhat struggling a bit. These are pretty much the main feats that come to mind where the clones were impressive or showcased nearly as much power/speed/durability as the original. In most other instances, clones are portrayed and noted to be weaker than the original and lacking in finishing power; mainly utilized for distraction, extra numbers, or general utility rather than a big power move.
- Considering that clones are Naruto's main move for 700+ chapters, there's bound to be inconsistencies in their portrayal, but having looked into many examples of Naruto and other characters, I believe that the most consistent portrayal is for them being significantly weaker than the original. Of course there's also their inconsistent durability portrayal to take into account as well. We even have multiple direct statements pointing towards this being the case, so I'd say that Naruto's clone feats should probably be evaluated on a case by case basis during revision threads to account for any inconsistencies that may exist. But overall, I don't believe said minor inconsistencies should have much bearing on this thread's premise in all honesty.
Official Sountracks for the thread:
Last edited:
