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Naruto's Genjutsu Equalized Electric Boogaloo thread
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
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I'll respond to some of Torsins points, maybe I didn't really clarify enough within the OP, as this CRT was initially 5 times larger than it is now and i had to cut a ton because i wanted to avoid making it too much of a hassle for people to read.
I have a few contentions that I hope to bring up before this thread concludes mainly regarding the Jiraiya statement and overall how we treat some resistances in Naruto. Overall however I do agree with the overall proposal that genjutsu should work under the verse equalization standards and would work on characters from other works as wellI disagree mainly with the suggestion given for the interpretation of the 2 scans provided here. Jiraiya states two separate sentences here. It is not perfectly clear to infer from these statements whether genjutsu controls the senses first which leads to a subsequent after effect of control of chakra in the opponent’s body or it’s the other way around as a case can be made for both the interpretations. The only way to infer more about this is to go through different scenarios of the usage of genjutsu and how it’s broken out of to come to logical conclusion on which one is it, which is what I will kinda do here.
I disagree here, outside of my Initial response to this in the OP another statement we can look at is Jiraiya's second statment on my second scan.
"While your caught your chakra is under the control of your opponent"
this sentence here gives a clear idea of the causation and timing of the jutsu. it implies the effect is happening while under the effects of Genjutsu, this would be impossible with the other interpretation because the control of chakra would be required for the genjutsu to work in the first place.
"While your caught your chakra is under the control of your opponent"
this sentence here gives a clear idea of the causation and timing of the jutsu. it implies the effect is happening while under the effects of Genjutsu, this would be impossible with the other interpretation because the control of chakra would be required for the genjutsu to work in the first place.
> First I would like to bring more attention to the statement made by Jiraiya on the control of chakra in the opponent’s cranial nerves. I feel this is important because the user of the genjutsu is targeting the brain specifically which is interlinked to all of your body’s 5 senses and helps us process the signals sent out by our sensory organs. The specific usage of cranial nerves also seems to point out to this as cranial nerves are what transfer sensory information from different parts of one’s body to their brain. This consist of sensory nerves which help transmit info on smell, touch etc you get the deal. This is important because controlling one’s chakra in the cranial nerves would help one control all their 5 senses and how a person perceives things.
Kakashi throughout the series notes how Sakura is a genjutsu type due to her adept and exceptional chakra control which would be very difficult for even seasoned and experienced shinobi like Jiraiya to accomplish. This is further backed up when she easily breaks out of Kabuto’s genjutsu during the chunin exams by disrupting her chakra as well as helping others out of it as well. . Sakura was considered a genjutsu type purely because of how exceptional her chakra control is which is essential for a genjutsu type since they would have to control the chakra in their opponent’s body with precision to make them fall into illusions.
Kakashi throughout the series notes how Sakura is a genjutsu type due to her adept and exceptional chakra control which would be very difficult for even seasoned and experienced shinobi like Jiraiya to accomplish. This is further backed up when she easily breaks out of Kabuto’s genjutsu during the chunin exams by disrupting her chakra as well as helping others out of it as well. . Sakura was considered a genjutsu type purely because of how exceptional her chakra control is which is essential for a genjutsu type since they would have to control the chakra in their opponent’s body with precision to make them fall into illusions.
The issue here lies with the fact that Shinobi do not freely have access to the cranial nerves, for them to have access to the chakra running they need to first catch someone within a genjutsu, It's impossible to have both at the same time, because if one is the aftereffect of the other then that begs the question of how they are being caught in the first place.
This is because most Genjutsu doesn't work by sending chakra into your opponent, it works through Jutsu that the opponents needs to succumb to first via one or more of their senses, this is why some Genjutsu has mechanics that require you first to create a conduit to work, these include things like feathers to let people fall asleep, getting people to enter within a specific tactical area, converting chakra to sound or leaves and so on and so forth, only Sharingan Jutsu and specific genjutsu have shown the properties of being able to directly pour chakra into a person, it's for this reason why conventional Genjutsu counters do not work on powerful Sharingan genjutsu, because it forces chakra directly into the person and makes the use of the chakra flow superfluous.
The reason why Chakra Control and the chakra flow is important in combating genjutsu isn't that it's important to the inception of the genjutsu but because if the person has control of their chakra they can repel the effects on their senses directly, it's the same reason why you can also dispel conventional genjtusu by external means like people bumping into you, or through physical pain that's not created by the genjutsu,because you're pushing away the Influence with real sensory effects.
> We see this trend of disrupting chakra all throughout the series one instance being Killer Bee breaking out of Sasuke’s MS genjutsu due to Hachibi disrupting his chakra flow for him and stating that it wouldn’t work on people who have timed their tailed beasts because they would do the same further reinforcing what Jiraiya stated. (Albeit Sasuke was new to his MS and might not know how to control it properly and use genjutsu’s as proficient as Itachi. )
You're correct with your later comment as Obito was able to easily place a perfect tailed beast host under his control for years (Yagura)
>Not disagreeing with anything specifically here. Just wanted to add that we see Hinata use the 8 trigrams 64 palms on the ten tail clones during the war which trargets acupoints in the chakra network. It could be that tailed beasts have chakra networks. If the ten tail clones have acupoints that Byakugan techniques work against meansthey would have a chakra network. If clones of ten tails has a chakra network I would assume that the main body does so as well as well as other biju since they are kinda similar in physiology overall even though there's a massive difference between each of their power.
It's why i mostly specified talking about Tailed Beast while they are sealed up, where they are demonstrably shown to us to be made of pure chakra, however, that being said being able to the acupoints isn't evidence of a chakra network, the Tenketsu points are just pressure points, the conventional kind, the only importance they have to the chakra system is that they allow chakra to be dispelled from their points, they connected to the system but are not physically part of it, for example like the hear and lungs ect, hopefully, that makes sense
This is because most Genjutsu doesn't work by sending chakra into your opponent, it works through Jutsu that the opponents needs to succumb to first via one or more of their senses, this is why some Genjutsu has mechanics that require you first to create a conduit to work, these include things like feathers to let people fall asleep, getting people to enter within a specific tactical area, converting chakra to sound or leaves and so on and so forth, only Sharingan Jutsu and specific genjutsu have shown the properties of being able to directly pour chakra into a person, it's for this reason why conventional Genjutsu counters do not work on powerful Sharingan genjutsu, because it forces chakra directly into the person and makes the use of the chakra flow superfluous.
The reason why Chakra Control and the chakra flow is important in combating genjutsu isn't that it's important to the inception of the genjutsu but because if the person has control of their chakra they can repel the effects on their senses directly, it's the same reason why you can also dispel conventional genjtusu by external means like people bumping into you, or through physical pain that's not created by the genjutsu,because you're pushing away the Influence with real sensory effects.
> We see this trend of disrupting chakra all throughout the series one instance being Killer Bee breaking out of Sasuke’s MS genjutsu due to Hachibi disrupting his chakra flow for him and stating that it wouldn’t work on people who have timed their tailed beasts because they would do the same further reinforcing what Jiraiya stated. (Albeit Sasuke was new to his MS and might not know how to control it properly and use genjutsu’s as proficient as Itachi. )
You're correct with your later comment as Obito was able to easily place a perfect tailed beast host under his control for years (Yagura)
>Not disagreeing with anything specifically here. Just wanted to add that we see Hinata use the 8 trigrams 64 palms on the ten tail clones during the war which trargets acupoints in the chakra network. It could be that tailed beasts have chakra networks. If the ten tail clones have acupoints that Byakugan techniques work against meansthey would have a chakra network. If clones of ten tails has a chakra network I would assume that the main body does so as well as well as other biju since they are kinda similar in physiology overall even though there's a massive difference between each of their power.
It's why i mostly specified talking about Tailed Beast while they are sealed up, where they are demonstrably shown to us to be made of pure chakra, however, that being said being able to the acupoints isn't evidence of a chakra network, the Tenketsu points are just pressure points, the conventional kind, the only importance they have to the chakra system is that they allow chakra to be dispelled from their points, they connected to the system but are not physically part of it, for example like the hear and lungs ect, hopefully, that makes sense
character like Sakura when facing off against such a character be able to break out of his/her mind manip/illusions regardless of potency of the hax? If yes why so?
under my Interpretation yes, she could potentially counter mind manip and illusions by using her chakra ( i mean even without this Sakura has a feat of seeing through an external illusion that's not tied to your body's own senses) however whether or not she can break free from it regardless of potency or hax then no that would be no limits fallacy and even genjutsu has different layers of potency, if all genjutsu was the same then there would only be 1 genjutsu ability after all. so in versus match ups it would be a case to case thing where we measure the resistance levels with the potency.
>he biju are able to break their hosts out of genjutsu in the same manner as pointed above i.e by disrupting chakra. Assuming in a vs debate both sides have complete knowledge of each other and their weaknesses and the opponent of the genjutsu user has proficient control of their energy would they be able to disrupt the flow of their energy to break out of the genjutsu? (Again I am talking about regular genjutsu here and not op ones's like izanami, izanagi etc.) If not why so?
For Conventional Genjutsu nor powerful occular Genjutsu then yes if the person in question has an energy that flows within them then they should be able to break free from the genjutsu, however once again it is dependant on the specific genjutsu and a question of potency vs resistance.
>he biju are able to break their hosts out of genjutsu in the same manner as pointed above i.e by disrupting chakra. Assuming in a vs debate both sides have complete knowledge of each other and their weaknesses and the opponent of the genjutsu user has proficient control of their energy would they be able to disrupt the flow of their energy to break out of the genjutsu? (Again I am talking about regular genjutsu here and not op ones's like izanami, izanagi etc.) If not why so?
For Conventional Genjutsu nor powerful occular Genjutsu then yes if the person in question has an energy that flows within them then they should be able to break free from the genjutsu, however once again it is dependant on the specific genjutsu and a question of potency vs resistance.
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for some reason my post-split Torsins points and mine into two different spoiler tags and now it looks way messier, (this is why i hate mobile)
PrinceofPein
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“Genjutsu is something that works on your opponent five senses, to control their flow of chakra”
“The power on button is something that works on the TV to turn the TV on”
Actually the entire chakra control thing is only relevant for breaking out of genjutsu not putting someone in one not even once did Sakura use genjutsu, chakra control is important for disrupting chakra flow when under genjutsu not for outing someone under it
I don’t know what this supposed to proof, someone who has fallen asleep would jerk awake when slapped. It’s simple disrupting your chakra wakes you up from genjutsu
Not sure what the point of this is she was not blocking the chakra path or hinted to or shown to she was simply repelling the clone, so what’s your point?
Here
Reading through your entire post and your intro I can’t really see anything here that points to anything so can you say your point and also izanagi is not genjutsu you seem mention it earlier
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Pretty sure Izanagi is a genjutsu
PrinceofPein
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Pretty sure it is not and just subjective reality where you turn reality to fiction
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Izanami is the Genjutsu, Izanagi is what Obito, Danzo and Madara used to rewrite their death.
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Izanagi is also classified under Genjutsu (somehow)
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If I remember correctly, Izanagi is treated as an overpowered self-genjutsu. Which will also make it a unique application of genjutsu because I don't remember any other genjutsu that the user casts upon himself
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There isn't a 'to' connecting the sentences. Jiraiya says "Genjutsu is something that works on you ropponent's five senses. You control the chakra running through their cranial nerves." There is no 'to' there so don't see why you are adding it
You have a point here in that chakra control is for breaking out of genjutsu's mainly. I assumed since Kakashi calls her suitable as a 'Genjutsu type ninja' if she tried to practice and use it she would be a pretty good one. Don't think he would call someone a genjutsu type jut because they can break out of one.
Like I said in the intro it was mainly to prove the order in which the genjutsu worked as in controls chakra which leads to control of senses. It isn't simple disruption though its first breaking the control of chakra that the opponent has on you. And anyways after Shadow's reply I concede on it for the most part.
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Alright thanks a lot for answering the few questions I had.
After reading through the second scan by Jiraiya and the rest of your reply, it makes sense. I concede.
PrinceofPein
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It should be subjective reality a CRT should be made
Don’t really know where all these is coming from but from the application
1. Madara died but before he did casted izanagi on himself to revive him after death
2. Obito died to konan paper bombs but then used izanagi to rewrite his own death
3. We have everyone’s favorite hokage using it multiple times and explaining that it is the power to turn reality to fiction and vice versa I.e. he gets hit by a sure death technique then he makes it so it’s never happened and to prove this the last time he was hit he tried to use it again but he had no eyes left. So yes the deed already happens before they try rewriting it not like they create an illusion to make it seem like the deed happen
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It already is in our Wiki, they're just pointing out that in Naruto the series itself, it's still classified as a Genjutsu
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Actually, I was misremembering. Izanagi is explained as casting a genjutsu on reality itself
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I agree with the OP.
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that’s not true.
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This covered within the first part of the OP, i even expanded on it with Torsin
i have an entire section dedicated to the Novel statement
This is covered within the second point of the OP.
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Disagree with the "CHAKRA AND THE CHAKRA PATHWAY SYSTEM" section...
This same idea of chakra existing within everyone is further reinforced in boruto. Case in point. This is basically a ninja creed explanation
Time and time again is chakra insinuated to be a fundemental life force within the naruto verse. We do not know it's origins but it has never not been there
Hard to argue this when chakra has been there since before the naruto story started. There has never been an instance that it was not present....
Common misconception. Hagoromo only brought about a way to spread chakra so that it could be used as a linking power. Mental energy, which every living thing in the verse has, is chakra. Only when chakra is mixed with physical energy can its volume be increased to a point where it can be used as a weapon e.g Ninjutsu. Implying that everyone, with proper training, can do jutsu and apply chakra externally. Here is what I'm talking about. Is there even a statement of Hagoromo giving people the ability to create chakra?It was always something like dispersing chakra iirc .More on Hagoromo as founder of ninja creed.
This same idea of chakra existing within everyone is further reinforced in boruto. Case in point. This is basically a ninja creed explanation
It states "releasing chakra" as opposed to creating it. Chakra is a dormant energy existing within everyone. Only through training can a person learn to release it so that it can be used externally.
Where is this from?
It really isn't though. This just further supports the chakra releasing point. A normal person cannot do this with just their dormant life force/chakra. An average person most likely just goes about their day without even knowing that the chakra inside of them can be used to the extent that shinobi do.
Boruto has effectively debunked this via a retcon. The whole Ōtsutsuki Clan plot would not make sense if normal people had no chakra. Also further supported by her getting the chakra fruit before Hagoromo was even born. Kaguya's goal has been consistent throughout. It would be impossible for her to be able to do that before the person that supposedly gave people the ability to create chakra was even born.
Time and time again is chakra insinuated to be a fundemental life force within the naruto verse. We do not know it's origins but it has never not been there
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You have some punctuation errors, can you fix them?
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Its stated in the Databook that even a body made of iron can be affected by the Tsukuyomi which is good supporting evidence
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All that is saying really is that durability is irrelevant when faced with Tsukuyomi because it ***** with the mind extensively
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I think this is accurate, but doesn't this also mean that in verse equalization with any similar fundamental life force/spiritual energy, it will be equated to chakra and genjutsu will be applicable?
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I'm confused i only see the Chakra stuff, i dont see the pathway part.
meaning of dispersed: distribute or spread over a wide area.
meaning of Distribute: give a share or a unit of (something) to each of a number of recipients.
Meaning of Spread: the fact or process of spreading over an area.
for Hagoromo to have done this he would have either had to have taught them how to use their mental and spiritual energies or to have literally given them chakra, either way, you want to take it, it still means until Hagoromo most people did not have chakra.
"Production of chakra"
Meaning of Production: the action of making or manufacturing from components or raw materials, or the process of being so manufactured.
either way if you are still not convinced, then feel free to disagree, like i stated in the OP this part isn't really relevant to the thesis of the post but more as a companion piece.
No.
He Spread Chakra by teaching people how to make chakra with the intended purpose of connecting them.
No, Mental energy is a component of chakra but it isn't chakra within itself.
No, the Physical energy is drawn from the cells within the body, this is then mixed with spiritual energy which is collectively known as stamina, stamina is then converted into chakra, once you have chakra you can start applying it to the different fields of Jutsu.
anyone can do Jutsu because everyone has spiritual and physical energy, they just need to train to create chakra.
... "the Chakra that the six paths dispersed"
meaning of dispersed: distribute or spread over a wide area.
meaning of Distribute: give a share or a unit of (something) to each of a number of recipients.
Meaning of Spread: the fact or process of spreading over an area.
for Hagoromo to have done this he would have either had to have taught them how to use their mental and spiritual energies or to have literally given them chakra, either way, you want to take it, it still means until Hagoromo most people did not have chakra.
Because Boruto takes place in the present thousands of years after Hagoromo....
No it doesn't? the Graph literally shows us that chakra volume is entirely empty while the stamina volume is full with notes indicating to us that it's made out of Spiritual and mental energy, when we follow the directions we two arrows forming a circle which indicates that you're converting your stamina to chakra.
"Production of chakra"
Meaning of Production: the action of making or manufacturing from components or raw materials, or the process of being so manufactured.
By the fact that chakra is created at the centre and Shinobi who train all their lives don't passively always have chakra running through their body, so why would people that do not train have chakra always flowing within them
this is referring to the flow of chakra within the body, not the creation im not sure what your point is, if Shinobi struggle to flow their chakra through their bodies then the same would be true for normal people.
Humans are not the only ones who have chakra and the Tree does not solely absorb chakra, it absorbs everything, including things like Tree's and water which are made out of nature energy, not chakra, it also absorbs genetic information.
See my point above
either way if you are still not convinced, then feel free to disagree, like i stated in the OP this part isn't really relevant to the thesis of the post but more as a companion piece.
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Sorry my responses will be a bit slower going forward as I'm currently at work.
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By the way, the existence of Rock Lee debunks this point no?
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Now I'm interested, has Lee been shown to walk on water and run up trees?
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You're right, there are a few shots of Lee standing on water in that fight
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This makes sense to me
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Either I'm completely misinformed or there is some special rule about retroactive continuity that I do not know about....
Why is a Databook passage from almost 8 years ago(secondary canon) more valid than exposition from almost 2 years ago(main cannon)?
Would this not be a retcon? The recent explanation also makes way more sense..
" Something that would connect the mental energies between people...">>That something is Ninshu/Ninja creed
"And yet time after time , people used chakra not to connect with others,but only to link the mental and physical energies within themselves">>Chakra is used interchangibly for mental energy. Unless I am missing something...
"As a way to amplify and greatly increase the volume of one's chakra">>>The addition of physical energy is said to amplify something that was already there(Chakra/mental energy) You cannot amplify something that was not already there and there was no mention of creation anywhere.
No one has ever trained to create chakra. Mixing the 2 grants more volume and it makes chakra manipulation possible(as per the madara explanation)
Which in turn would make your conclusion incorrect.
Here it is again
This graph is also severely outdated. Unless there is a reason that we would take this over literally anything that was explained after it.....
Also are you implying that your scan is supposed to illustrate Kidomaru initiating the flow of chakra??Cause that would be wrong. The non highlighted Keirakukei indicates a body in idle state where chakra is flowing(this is for every default human in the verse). The highlighted Keirakukei signifies active chakra manipulation. The default human cannot just do this. They would have to train.
The end result of this IT is no different from the one that Amado explained. Just different methods.
EdIt: we also see that no one was actively creating chakra because they really do not need to. The shinobi were just standing there
Jesus Christ Kishi.....
Why is a Databook passage from almost 8 years ago(secondary canon) more valid than exposition from almost 2 years ago(main cannon)?
Would this not be a retcon? The recent explanation also makes way more sense..
Do you have a scan that says this specifically?? preferably after the Madara explanation....
That's directly going against what Madara said though. It's very clear cut
" Something that would connect the mental energies between people...">>That something is Ninshu/Ninja creed
"And yet time after time , people used chakra not to connect with others,but only to link the mental and physical energies within themselves">>Chakra is used interchangibly for mental energy. Unless I am missing something...
"As a way to amplify and greatly increase the volume of one's chakra">>>The addition of physical energy is said to amplify something that was already there(Chakra/mental energy) You cannot amplify something that was not already there and there was no mention of creation anywhere.
This pre-timeskip explanation of chakra has also been retconned. Spiritual energy is not even mentioned anymore in the latter half of the story. This just gives more context as to where physical energy is gotten from.
Mental energy not spiritual energy...
No one has ever trained to create chakra. Mixing the 2 grants more volume and it makes chakra manipulation possible(as per the madara explanation)
The scans point to the former being true. It is literally the essence of Ninshu. Spiritual energy has also never been mentioned in that context(unless you have scans)
Which in turn would make your conclusion incorrect.
Here it is again
It was moreso a reply to this general sentiment(below⬇⬇⬇)in which it it implied that chakra was not needed or that regular humans did not have any. These events basically also took place not too long ago. What you're insinuating would be considered a plothole.
Oops. The OP did not have this official scan lol
This graph is also severely outdated. Unless there is a reason that we would take this over literally anything that was explained after it.....
Proof for this? Cause the story disagrees. There also was no distinction between regular humans and superhumans in the explanation. And to this day no other information contradicts this iirc.
Also are you implying that your scan is supposed to illustrate Kidomaru initiating the flow of chakra??Cause that would be wrong. The non highlighted Keirakukei indicates a body in idle state where chakra is flowing(this is for every default human in the verse). The highlighted Keirakukei signifies active chakra manipulation. The default human cannot just do this. They would have to train.
Because the story says so or atleast heavily implies it....
Scan for this?? Where was it stated that shinobi struggled with something they do not even have to think about (most of the time)??
What are you even inferring this from? We have scans of "The endlessly annoying gardening" in which we can see the siphoning of chakra only happening to the populace..
The end result of this IT is no different from the one that Amado explained. Just different methods.
EdIt: we also see that no one was actively creating chakra because they really do not need to. The shinobi were just standing there
right back at ya..
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Its also talking about how it can work on an iron body
PrinceofPein
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PrinceofPein
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I will say misinformed
Anyway using Naruto explanation does not even debunk anything said in the OP as we have kawaki probably one of the most knowledgeable on the issue of ninja given his background saying and I quote “I can’t manipulate what you ninjas can” iirc and in this case he means chakra then we have Naruto explaining to him what chakra should have been which is a way to connect people
That does not mean that ninjas don’t have to link their mental and physical energy together to create chakra he is just explaining the general thing hagoromo wanted
It is literally in the scans you sent he said he taught people how to connect their mental energies but instead people used it for a different thing and started connecting their physical and mental energies within themselves to make them stronger
Mental energy = spiritual energy? No?
And yes you are right chakra is a liberal word in naruto as it is used for almost any form of energy
And this would be your own head canon
Read above
And why should there be a distinction in this explanation that is clearly just explaining the chakra flow??
Not really my argument so I can’t really address everything as that would require you both arguments
But you got prove of chakra before Kaguya?? I mean the one that requires you mixing mental and physical energy together?? Cause I don’t even know your claim but I guess a single disagree to the thread
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No, it says having an iron body is useless (because Tsukuyomi **** your brain)
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Yeah, so it can work on people with inorganic physiology
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You could have just said this to begin with. For what it's worth though, I don't know if this would be true, someone would have to try genjutsu on Code or Delta
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So all genjutsu users get Sense Manipulation, right?
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Nope, the term body is very broad. You can have a body made of iron and still have a brain or nervous system, so no.
Very vague wording by the way.
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