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In the canon event. And b4 the "Then let's use evrything from the anime then" argument comes around, this just shows an action that's being debated. No Anime only events, attempting to calc from the anime or the like.
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Naruto Upgrades
- Thread starter TheFinalOrder
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #162
"Adaptation of a canon event in a noncanon medium"...Hst master said:
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"Adaptation of a canon event in a noncanon medium"...
So you just admitted that the Limbo Clone didn't attack Sasuke.....
So you just admitted that the Limbo Clone didn't attack Sasuke.....
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@HsT
Ah yur correct my apologies (must have been looking at a fanmade one then lol) HOWEVER this can be Bass Naruto chakra given the fact that in this movie, his chakra is golden and
EDIT: I looked at the Naruto wiki and they said that it was his own chakra not KCM. Don't forget though that Naruto and Kuramas chakra has fused ever since the war (when he undid the seal for BM)
Ah yur correct my apologies (must have been looking at a fanmade one then lol) HOWEVER this can be Bass Naruto chakra given the fact that in this movie, his chakra is golden and
EDIT: I looked at the Naruto wiki and they said that it was his own chakra not KCM. Don't forget though that Naruto and Kuramas chakra has fused ever since the war (when he undid the seal for BM)
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Okay, so let's say we're left with Sasuke cutting Momoshiki's ninjutsu and Madara in half. Kinshiki took a Chidori sword from Sasuke in a stabbing / thrusting motion. Also, how about Kinshiki's statement that was accepted?
Putting Naruto aside, this Kage example is absurd and reaching in my opinion. I agree with TFO in this instance. Momo defeated them with ease. You don't have to splatter someone in fiction for us to know you're far above them, especially good guys like the Kage. I really find this argument to be incredulous.
Momoshiki took hits from SPSM Naruto. TFO already posted about the durability ~ striking strength thing in Naruto, with real life examples to back his point up. If Momoshiki is 7-A normally, we need a thread urgently.
And it's not really hard to grasp the concept of PIS. Momo and Kinshiki vs the Kage has been accepted to be for plot, so I really don't get some of these arguments. Are we to say the Kage are Relativistic now? Come on now, guys. With this Kage logic being passed off as legit, we should upgrade their speed and upgrade Sakura to somewhere in Tier 5. She has a larger amount of chakra than SPSM Naruto's clone and has the great chakra skill and control to go with it, along with knocking Kaguya's horn off.
Except we accept Sakura's "feats" as PIS, but don't do so for the Kage against Momokinshiki, even as they easily got stomped and could literally do nothing to him? Obviously, both situations should be disregarded in the same manner so I don't get this recurrent Kage example.
By the way, I don't know if Naruto vs Momoshiki is enough for him to scale, but it's not PIS for him in my opinion. What reason is there for it to be PIS? The big issue I see is the backwards and roundabout scaling. Comparing Post Six Paths Naruto to the Kage is just a big no from me. They demonstrably have much inferior feats. Base Naruto could even react to Sasuke. Their standings in the verse alone is enough to dictate what is logically PIS and what is not.
Putting Naruto aside, this Kage example is absurd and reaching in my opinion. I agree with TFO in this instance. Momo defeated them with ease. You don't have to splatter someone in fiction for us to know you're far above them, especially good guys like the Kage. I really find this argument to be incredulous.
Momoshiki took hits from SPSM Naruto. TFO already posted about the durability ~ striking strength thing in Naruto, with real life examples to back his point up. If Momoshiki is 7-A normally, we need a thread urgently.
And it's not really hard to grasp the concept of PIS. Momo and Kinshiki vs the Kage has been accepted to be for plot, so I really don't get some of these arguments. Are we to say the Kage are Relativistic now? Come on now, guys. With this Kage logic being passed off as legit, we should upgrade their speed and upgrade Sakura to somewhere in Tier 5. She has a larger amount of chakra than SPSM Naruto's clone and has the great chakra skill and control to go with it, along with knocking Kaguya's horn off.
Except we accept Sakura's "feats" as PIS, but don't do so for the Kage against Momokinshiki, even as they easily got stomped and could literally do nothing to him? Obviously, both situations should be disregarded in the same manner so I don't get this recurrent Kage example.
By the way, I don't know if Naruto vs Momoshiki is enough for him to scale, but it's not PIS for him in my opinion. What reason is there for it to be PIS? The big issue I see is the backwards and roundabout scaling. Comparing Post Six Paths Naruto to the Kage is just a big no from me. They demonstrably have much inferior feats. Base Naruto could even react to Sasuke. Their standings in the verse alone is enough to dictate what is logically PIS and what is not.
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Also, I'm not sure where TFO is getting 2 yottatons from, but I want to point out that if this proposal gets accepted, multipliers can't be used for Naruto's cloaked forms due to the roundabout scaling back to his base.
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Sasuke also scales physically to Kinshiki. Sasuke was in damaged by Momoshikis jutsus as well. Sasuke's Base is physically portrayed as 5B over and over. Kinshiki is 5B for being able to harm Sasuke who has 5B durability. This is how taijutsu in the verse works.
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@BFF
I think your issue is that you keep labeling consistent repeated similar feats as PIS. Why not call it what it is, anti-feats?
It's not that the Kages and Sakura should be upgraded much higher, it's that we should be looking at their opponents who even struggled with them in the first.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki are literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis.
Kinshiki literally had to dodge an attack from Chojuro.
Chojuro could literally react and dodge an attempted blitz from Kinshiki. Then Chojuro even crossed blades with Kinshiki and took a hit from him.
Kurotsuchi then sends Kinishiki flying and into roots of the God Tree with a punch.
Kinishiki is pierced by a Jutsu from Chojuro.
Kinishiki is then incapacitated physically by Kurotsuchi's Jutsu with Kinishiki physically strained and in pain.
A flying Momoshiki is literally slower than Darui running on sand since Darui catches up to Momoshiki despite having started from further back.
Momoshiki had to defend himself from a strike from Darui and Momoshiki was still running away from Darui.
An angered upgraded Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick.
Angered and upgrade Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara and has to go around the sand to attack Gaara. Yet, Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well. Gaara reacts to that blitz to block as well.
Same Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro.
Same Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi. Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave the same Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Momoshiki but it breaks his Jutsu as well.
The only thing that appears 5-B about either is Momoshiki Post-Upgrade in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B. There are more 7-A feats for Kinshiki and Momoshiki (pre upgrade) than 5-B feats.
The attempt occuring in this thread is trying to make Rinnegan Sasuke and Base Adult Naruto physically 5-B, trying to use their currently debated rating to justify Momoshiki and Kinshiki as 5-B isn't going to work when the whole point of this thread is literal circular logic:
Making Rinnegan Sasuke physical 5-B through Madara's Limbo Clones (who are 5-B from SPSM Naruto) to scale Rinnegan Sasuke to Momoshiki and Kinshiki to scale back to Base Adult Naruto (then an added attempt on the OP to scale back to Toneri) or claim Base Adult Naruto is 5-B from clashing with Rinnegan Sasuke in Vote2 to make Momoshiki 5-B for fighting Base Adult Naruto.
PIS stands for Plot Induced Stupidy, when an absurb event takes place in the story in order for the plot to advance. None of this was needed for the plot to advance and there are too many instances to just brush it off as PIS or WIS. They are all consistent with one another and explicit.
Edit: Halloween today, may not get back around till tomorrow.
I think your issue is that you keep labeling consistent repeated similar feats as PIS. Why not call it what it is, anti-feats?
It's not that the Kages and Sakura should be upgraded much higher, it's that we should be looking at their opponents who even struggled with them in the first.
Momoshiki and Kinshiki are literally held back by Shikamaru's Shadow Paralysis.
Kinshiki literally had to dodge an attack from Chojuro.
Chojuro could literally react and dodge an attempted blitz from Kinshiki. Then Chojuro even crossed blades with Kinshiki and took a hit from him.
Kurotsuchi then sends Kinishiki flying and into roots of the God Tree with a punch.
Kinishiki is pierced by a Jutsu from Chojuro.
Kinishiki is then incapacitated physically by Kurotsuchi's Jutsu with Kinishiki physically strained and in pain.
A flying Momoshiki is literally slower than Darui running on sand since Darui catches up to Momoshiki despite having started from further back.
Momoshiki had to defend himself from a strike from Darui and Momoshiki was still running away from Darui.
An angered upgraded Momoshiki only knocks out Darui with a kick.
Angered and upgrade Momoshiki has his punched blocked by Gaara and has to go around the sand to attack Gaara. Yet, Momoshiki only knocks out Gaara as well. Gaara reacts to that blitz to block as well.
Same Momoshiki kicking and only knocking out Chojuro.
Same Momoshiki punching and only knocking out Kurotsuchi. Absorbing the Chakra from several Jutsu fired from a Scientific Ninja Tool gave the same Momoshiki the chakra to cast a Shadow Paralysis Jutsu to physically restrain Chojuro, Kurotsuchi, Gaara, Darui, Base Adult Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.
A Vanishing Rasengan from Boruto not only knocks back this Momoshiki but it breaks his Jutsu as well.
The only thing that appears 5-B about either is Momoshiki Post-Upgrade in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B. There are more 7-A feats for Kinshiki and Momoshiki (pre upgrade) than 5-B feats.
The attempt occuring in this thread is trying to make Rinnegan Sasuke and Base Adult Naruto physically 5-B, trying to use their currently debated rating to justify Momoshiki and Kinshiki as 5-B isn't going to work when the whole point of this thread is literal circular logic:
Making Rinnegan Sasuke physical 5-B through Madara's Limbo Clones (who are 5-B from SPSM Naruto) to scale Rinnegan Sasuke to Momoshiki and Kinshiki to scale back to Base Adult Naruto (then an added attempt on the OP to scale back to Toneri) or claim Base Adult Naruto is 5-B from clashing with Rinnegan Sasuke in Vote2 to make Momoshiki 5-B for fighting Base Adult Naruto.
PIS stands for Plot Induced Stupidy, when an absurb event takes place in the story in order for the plot to advance. None of this was needed for the plot to advance and there are too many instances to just brush it off as PIS or WIS. They are all consistent with one another and explicit.
Edit: Halloween today, may not get back around till tomorrow.
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Then it's an outlier for the Kages 
did u see how easily Kinshiki jumped it of those sealingsnlike it was nothing? Tbh I think their objective was more into getting Kuramas chakra then everyone themselves he'll even with the Shadow possession Jutsu Momo was very calm about it and all not only that but it came as a suprise for Kinshiki as well (if Base Momo is calm about it then it wouldn't be a suprise that Kinshiki was also calm
did u see how easily Kinshiki jumped it of those sealingsnlike it was nothing? Tbh I think their objective was more into getting Kuramas chakra then everyone themselves he'll even with the Shadow possession Jutsu Momo was very calm about it and all not only that but it came as a suprise for Kinshiki as well (if Base Momo is calm about it then it wouldn't be a suprise that Kinshiki was also calm
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It's hard to call it an outlier when it consistently happens
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I don't think you know what classifies as outlier then. Outliers are by definition:
A person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.
These feats do not differe because of how consistent they are and how numerous they are. They are legit, consistent and numerous showings of Momoshiki and Kinshiki struggling with 7-A characters.
As I said with BFF that I will explain to you (I'll just switch some words):
I think your issue is that you keep labeling consistent repeated similar feats as outliers for the Kage. Why not call it what it is, anti-feats for Momoshiki and Kinshiki?
It's not that the Kages should be upgraded much higher, it's that we should be looking at their opponents (Momoshiki and Kinshiki) who consistently and repeatedly struggled with them in the first.
A person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.
These feats do not differe because of how consistent they are and how numerous they are. They are legit, consistent and numerous showings of Momoshiki and Kinshiki struggling with 7-A characters.
As I said with BFF that I will explain to you (I'll just switch some words):
I think your issue is that you keep labeling consistent repeated similar feats as outliers for the Kage. Why not call it what it is, anti-feats for Momoshiki and Kinshiki?
It's not that the Kages should be upgraded much higher, it's that we should be looking at their opponents (Momoshiki and Kinshiki) who consistently and repeatedly struggled with them in the first.
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Tbh IMade is Correct
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@2017
Then we need a thread for Kinshiki and Momoshiki's stats. Simple as that. The way things are currently accepted, the arguments can't hold up.
So we'd need to discuss Kinshiki and Momoshiki's stats, keeping up with Naruto and Sasuke including Kinshiki taking an attack from Sasuke's Chidori sword and Momoshiki taking an attack from SPSM Naruto - TFO explained durability and striking strength - + Kinshiki's statement. The way I'm seeing your post, you're suggesting Kinshiki and Momoshiki should be downgraded to 7-A and MHS+. Even if I don't agree with your posts about Fused Momoshiki.
Base Momoshiki is already 5-B with the Bijuudama for making Naruto struggle with it, and then knocking him out.
Then we need a thread for Kinshiki and Momoshiki's stats. Simple as that. The way things are currently accepted, the arguments can't hold up.
So we'd need to discuss Kinshiki and Momoshiki's stats, keeping up with Naruto and Sasuke including Kinshiki taking an attack from Sasuke's Chidori sword and Momoshiki taking an attack from SPSM Naruto - TFO explained durability and striking strength - + Kinshiki's statement. The way I'm seeing your post, you're suggesting Kinshiki and Momoshiki should be downgraded to 7-A and MHS+. Even if I don't agree with your posts about Fused Momoshiki.
Base Momoshiki is already 5-B with the Bijuudama for making Naruto struggle with it, and then knocking him out.
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Like seriously it's either PIS or Outlier like come on it's not hard to even identify it. U even missed the point of what I've said about Momo being very calm about being in shadow possession which in turn would mean Kinshiki would also be calm about it. Did y'all Miss the fact that Kinshiki jumped out of the sealing like it was nothing when he was about to be eaten by Momo yet y'all say that he struggled...
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> Boruto killed Momoshiki with a Rasengan that was amplified by Naruto's Chakra
So wait, you're saying Base Naruto > Momoshiki > SPSM Naruto = Momoshiki > Base Naruto?
Because Boruto is obviously not on Momoshiki's level going by your scaling chain, with or without his Rasengan chakra, and this is obvious. So what you are saying here is that Naruto, without being amped at all, can provide the chakra to blast Momo to pieces, despite being forced into SPSM as soon as Momoshiki landed the literal first hit on him, and he can provide said chakra nigh effortlessly at that?
Do I even have to point out what's wrong with this feat?
> Naruto was able to Block and Tank hits and keep up with Moomoshiki before needing RSM to keep up, here and here
Base Naruto did not even get affected by said hit. He met it evenly and didn't have his arm broken, nor even scratched. And, despite performing such a good durability feat, he still felt entitled to go to RSM. Despite the fact Momo was unable to do significant damage to Base Naruto, he easily made both RSM Naruto and Kurama struggle significantly with his Golem. In fact, it was difficult enough that Kurama needed the Susanoo armor in order to compete with it. He could also one-shot said Susano'o protection from Sasuke, despite Base Naruto being enough to clash with him evenly. So Base Naruto has a durability feat putting him at stronger or at least comparable levels to a massively amped state.
From all of this...do you realize how just messy and illogical scaling becomes if you accept one single panel where a lower character is shown not being destroyed in one hit by the stronger one as proof of anything solid, at all? Do you know why we need entire battles to solidify a tier, and to demonstrate the character is indeed on that level? Because of stuff like this.
Base Naruto is clearly not comparable to Momoshiki. He is forced into RSM as soon as Momoshiki is about to land his second hit, and has one single panel where he lands a hit on him. He is not meant to be able to tank and give back such hits, and to say he is makes for disastrous scaling.
Sasuke:
People have already said what I think about Limbo for me, so I'll skip that one.
> Able to withstand being Tossed around by Kaguya whom made both him and SPSM Naruto exclaim
Yet another brief, one-panel scan that, if taken literally, leads to disastrous scaling. So, we're seeing Sasuke take a direct hit from Kaguya. He is not sent flying any farther than Naruto is, is not roughed up any further by the hit too. He tanked that hit just as well as SPSM Naruto did.
Yet this exact same Sasuke needed his Susano'o in order to match SPSM Naruto evenly, as shown several times in VOTE. The track record is consistent with Base Naruto = Rinnegan Sasuke without Susano'o physically. Yet we are supposed to believe that Rinnegan Sasuke can take hits from Kaguya just as well as SPSM Naruto can.
Sort out that scaling for me now in a manner that won't require headcanons and another batch of 1,000 threads in the matter that wouldn't be necessary if we analyzed each battle in depth instead of picking one single scan and latching into it permanently.
The rest speaks for itself.
So wait, you're saying Base Naruto > Momoshiki > SPSM Naruto = Momoshiki > Base Naruto?
Because Boruto is obviously not on Momoshiki's level going by your scaling chain, with or without his Rasengan chakra, and this is obvious. So what you are saying here is that Naruto, without being amped at all, can provide the chakra to blast Momo to pieces, despite being forced into SPSM as soon as Momoshiki landed the literal first hit on him, and he can provide said chakra nigh effortlessly at that?
Do I even have to point out what's wrong with this feat?
> Naruto was able to Block and Tank hits and keep up with Moomoshiki before needing RSM to keep up, here and here
Base Naruto did not even get affected by said hit. He met it evenly and didn't have his arm broken, nor even scratched. And, despite performing such a good durability feat, he still felt entitled to go to RSM. Despite the fact Momo was unable to do significant damage to Base Naruto, he easily made both RSM Naruto and Kurama struggle significantly with his Golem. In fact, it was difficult enough that Kurama needed the Susanoo armor in order to compete with it. He could also one-shot said Susano'o protection from Sasuke, despite Base Naruto being enough to clash with him evenly. So Base Naruto has a durability feat putting him at stronger or at least comparable levels to a massively amped state.
From all of this...do you realize how just messy and illogical scaling becomes if you accept one single panel where a lower character is shown not being destroyed in one hit by the stronger one as proof of anything solid, at all? Do you know why we need entire battles to solidify a tier, and to demonstrate the character is indeed on that level? Because of stuff like this.
Base Naruto is clearly not comparable to Momoshiki. He is forced into RSM as soon as Momoshiki is about to land his second hit, and has one single panel where he lands a hit on him. He is not meant to be able to tank and give back such hits, and to say he is makes for disastrous scaling.
Sasuke:
People have already said what I think about Limbo for me, so I'll skip that one.
> Able to withstand being Tossed around by Kaguya whom made both him and SPSM Naruto exclaim
Yet another brief, one-panel scan that, if taken literally, leads to disastrous scaling. So, we're seeing Sasuke take a direct hit from Kaguya. He is not sent flying any farther than Naruto is, is not roughed up any further by the hit too. He tanked that hit just as well as SPSM Naruto did.
Yet this exact same Sasuke needed his Susano'o in order to match SPSM Naruto evenly, as shown several times in VOTE. The track record is consistent with Base Naruto = Rinnegan Sasuke without Susano'o physically. Yet we are supposed to believe that Rinnegan Sasuke can take hits from Kaguya just as well as SPSM Naruto can.
Sort out that scaling for me now in a manner that won't require headcanons and another batch of 1,000 threads in the matter that wouldn't be necessary if we analyzed each battle in depth instead of picking one single scan and latching into it permanently.
The rest speaks for itself.
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- Thread starter
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I'll get back to you, Kep.
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THis hilarious forgive me though it seems many who oppose this revision seem to genuinely believe 6th paths madara is relative to (base) momoshiki keep in mind base momoshiki is above (prime)kaguya meaning before her chakra/ energy was shared throughout the world by hogaromo so now you have a weaker kaguya in the 4th war trying to gather back her energy is stated to be greater then madara by naruto and Sasuke who just literally fought madara senses his energy gauges his strength now ff to boruto the author the god of the verse tells us the readers that (prime) kaguya fears base momoshiki not even fused with kinshiki base naruto gives his son enough power to defeat (fused) momoshiki it should also be noted he wasn't at full power upon doing this not the mention prior to base momoshiki drained 50% of his energy nor was he influenced by the foxes energy upon sharing his power with his son also naruto and sasuke are rivals they have always been relative to one another keep that in mind so I don't know why madara is being used when adult naruto and sasuke will absolutely one shot 6th paths madara adult naruto and sasuke are massively more powerful then during the 4th war not even relative at all if anyone thinks otherwise let's debate this vocally either google+ or discord
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And just so we're clear:
@Kep
Your main issue is that Base Naruto doesn't Scale SPSM or Momoshiki (All the other stuff can be addressed later, i want to single out the important stuff first)
@IMade
Your main issue is that nobody but SPSM Naruto and Madara scales to 5-B physically with Momoshiki only scaling to 5-B physically in Durability (I saw what you posted above, but I want to get to the overall argument)
I'm gonna cut them down to size today.
@Kep
Your main issue is that Base Naruto doesn't Scale SPSM or Momoshiki (All the other stuff can be addressed later, i want to single out the important stuff first)
@IMade
Your main issue is that nobody but SPSM Naruto and Madara scales to 5-B physically with Momoshiki only scaling to 5-B physically in Durability (I saw what you posted above, but I want to get to the overall argument)
I'm gonna cut them down to size today.
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@Kep
I 100% sure that Naruto used his all his chakra for the Rasengan also during that little PvP that SPSM Naruto and Fused Momo had, Naruto was keeping up with him and even gotten a hit off him him (RinneS. Sasuke/SOSP Naruto were lol fighting Fused Momo together and by themselves they could keep up with Fused Momo)
they did this with 50% of their chakra as well
I 100% sure that Naruto used his all his chakra for the Rasengan also during that little PvP that SPSM Naruto and Fused Momo had, Naruto was keeping up with him and even gotten a hit off him him (RinneS. Sasuke/SOSP Naruto were lol fighting Fused Momo together and by themselves they could keep up with Fused Momo)
they did this with 50% of their chakra as well
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@IMade
yes it is not outlier, so we'll downgrade god tier
Hope you guys will finish this as soon as possible.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2292803
yes it is not outlier, so we'll downgrade god tier
Hope you guys will finish this as soon as possible.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2292803
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I guess Momoshiki is now 8-A physicallyIMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
I guess Naruto and Sasuke in base are actually 7-B because they got hurt by Shin's Sword, also Sasuke's Speed should be downgraded because a Chunin level ninja got the best of him.
Naruto was also having some trouble with the mini clones in Bijuu Mode, i guess his Bijuu mode is 8-B
I guess we should also downgrade Gyuki to 7-C Because he got hurt my Sasuke,
The second hokage should be 8-A aswell, he got taken out by some jonin level ninja.
Madara's Durability should also get a drastic downgrade because he was stabbed by Zetsu who is weaker than Darui who is 8-A to 7-C at best.
also None of the Naruto characters should be even Tier 5, the plot doesnt need them to be this powerful, they are protecting the structure of the world' not the planet itself , they can do that with Mid end tier 6 level feats.
┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»
if this is how we are going to start treating the scaling of characters, then i dont want anything to do with it, ill remove myself from the "I know some stuff about the verse" list because it clearly doesnt matter, there's no point in it anyway, because only one persons opinion matters.
Cheerio
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> Your main issue is that Base Naruto doesn't Scale SPSM or Momoshiki.
That's literally what your post leads to. Naruto being able to tank a hit from Momoshiki without any collateral damage means his durabiity irrefutably scales to Momoshiki's AP. If you disagree then the feat is null and void via being inconsistent like I'm arguing.
That's literally what your post leads to. Naruto being able to tank a hit from Momoshiki without any collateral damage means his durabiity irrefutably scales to Momoshiki's AP. If you disagree then the feat is null and void via being inconsistent like I'm arguing.
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@Kep
So, I'm about to kill your argument about SPSM being narratively Naruto's "Most Powerful" form any any significant way from his base.
Hagoromo gives Naruto and Sasuke each half of his Chakra:
Note: It's confirmed he gave half of his Chakra by Naruto, here
Now, let's start by saying there is no basis for Base Naruto not equaling Base Sasuke. They both recieved SPC in their base states. Naruto is using SPC the same as Sasuke in a base state, the only difference is, Sasuke in addition to SPC, recieved Rinnegan and Naruto recieved SPSM, but neither ability contains SPC. Naruto is using SPC in conjunction with SPSM/Kurama Chakra/Biju Chakra. The Later two form together to create SPC, but to an unquantifiable degree outside of the SPC that Naruto recieved from hags. This is proven because of the Juubi Jinchiriki. Naruto's SPSM Chakra Mode, isn't "SPSM" actually. SPSM has noting to do with Naruto's outward appearce except for the eyes:
Naruto's Cloak is a Byproduct of using all Biju Chakra:
Now, before you start with more unfounded claims, let's see what's actually said about what SPSM actually is from the Databook:
SIx Paths Sage Mode (Naruto Databook):
"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature
The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi." ^SPSM is only supernatural State of Mind and also according to the DB,it also grants Naruto:
Time and Time again, Sasuke has demonstraighted 5-B AP without Susanoo and is stated to have SPC, which is necessary for his feats. Base Naruto scales to Sasuke, this isn't up for debate.
But let me explain further why Naruto's Chakra Mode "Isn't significantly above his base" , nor significantly above Sasuke.
So, Naruto and Sasuke both recieved SPC from Hagomomo, each gaining half his chakra as stated. Prior to this, Naruto's max was 6-B with BM (Not Counting BSM for obvious reasons). Kurama's Chakra outside of BM has no bearing on Naruto's Chakra. Naruto without BM or KCM or SM, pre having Kyuubi extracted is 7-A, maybe At least 7-A. That Chakra he had was amplified by recieving Half of Hags Chakra, wheich amplified his base as well as Sasuke's.
Naruto's Power (Pre-Extraction):
Kurama Mode (Naruto Databook):
Kurama mode simply put is Naruto combining His Chakra with Kurama's to use Kurama's Full power. When they are not in BM, they are not combined and thus, Kurama's Chakra is not amped.
So, when I say Naruto's Forms are not "Significantly" above his base, I mean:
You'd understand this, if you actually did the research.
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So, in regards to Base Naruto killing Momoshiki, yes, it's possible. SPSM Naruto is only insignificantly stronger than base Naruto. Even less so now that he doesn't even use Biju 1-8 Chakra, only 100% Kurama. So In the Boruto Manga:
I'll address the other stuff later, but I have a Mid-Term to get to, so....brb in a few hours.
So, I'm about to kill your argument about SPSM being narratively Naruto's "Most Powerful" form any any significant way from his base.
Hagoromo gives Naruto and Sasuke each half of his Chakra:
Note: It's confirmed he gave half of his Chakra by Naruto, here
Now, let's start by saying there is no basis for Base Naruto not equaling Base Sasuke. They both recieved SPC in their base states. Naruto is using SPC the same as Sasuke in a base state, the only difference is, Sasuke in addition to SPC, recieved Rinnegan and Naruto recieved SPSM, but neither ability contains SPC. Naruto is using SPC in conjunction with SPSM/Kurama Chakra/Biju Chakra. The Later two form together to create SPC, but to an unquantifiable degree outside of the SPC that Naruto recieved from hags. This is proven because of the Juubi Jinchiriki. Naruto's SPSM Chakra Mode, isn't "SPSM" actually. SPSM has noting to do with Naruto's outward appearce except for the eyes:
Naruto's Cloak is a Byproduct of using all Biju Chakra:
Now, before you start with more unfounded claims, let's see what's actually said about what SPSM actually is from the Databook:
SIx Paths Sage Mode (Naruto Databook):
"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature
The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi." ^SPSM is only supernatural State of Mind and also according to the DB,it also grants Naruto:
- Greater Sensing
- Flight
Time and Time again, Sasuke has demonstraighted 5-B AP without Susanoo and is stated to have SPC, which is necessary for his feats. Base Naruto scales to Sasuke, this isn't up for debate.
But let me explain further why Naruto's Chakra Mode "Isn't significantly above his base" , nor significantly above Sasuke.
So, Naruto and Sasuke both recieved SPC from Hagomomo, each gaining half his chakra as stated. Prior to this, Naruto's max was 6-B with BM (Not Counting BSM for obvious reasons). Kurama's Chakra outside of BM has no bearing on Naruto's Chakra. Naruto without BM or KCM or SM, pre having Kyuubi extracted is 7-A, maybe At least 7-A. That Chakra he had was amplified by recieving Half of Hags Chakra, wheich amplified his base as well as Sasuke's.
Naruto's Power (Pre-Extraction):
- 7-A in Base
- 6-B in BM
- 5-B in Base with Six Paths Chakra
Kurama Mode (Naruto Databook):
Kurama mode simply put is Naruto combining His Chakra with Kurama's to use Kurama's Full power. When they are not in BM, they are not combined and thus, Kurama's Chakra is not amped.
So, when I say Naruto's Forms are not "Significantly" above his base, I mean:
- 5-B Chakra + 6-B Chakra = Insignificant Buff
- 50% Kurama 6-B Chakra + Unquantifiable Biju Chakra = Unquantifiable Six Paths Chakra.
You'd understand this, if you actually did the research.
________________________________
So, in regards to Base Naruto killing Momoshiki, yes, it's possible. SPSM Naruto is only insignificantly stronger than base Naruto. Even less so now that he doesn't even use Biju 1-8 Chakra, only 100% Kurama. So In the Boruto Manga:
- SPSM Naruto = 50% Hags Chakra + 100% Kurama Chakra (War Arc BM x2)
- Base Naruto = 50% hagoromo Chakra.
I'll address the other stuff later, but I have a Mid-Term to get to, so....brb in a few hours.
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To start with, let's settle the stats of Kinshiki and Momoshiki.
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I see you didn't counter anything I said regarding Sasuke's high-ends that you used to even start arguing this, but I will reply to your latest post. Give me a few minutes.
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oh boy we are going to downgrade god tier to 7-A cuz kage vs momo is consistent
then bleach god tier need to downgrade to 7-C cuz Yhwach was killed by Pseudo Shikai so i can see that
and also Yhwach attack getting block by Orihime
consistent enough to get downgrade
see do i sound ridiculous yes
this is how all of u sound like( ridiculous) when u are using kage to discarded this CRT even wors using boruto
facepalm
then bleach god tier need to downgrade to 7-C cuz Yhwach was killed by Pseudo Shikai so i can see that
and also Yhwach attack getting block by Orihime
consistent enough to get downgrade
see do i sound ridiculous yes
this is how all of u sound like( ridiculous) when u are using kage to discarded this CRT even wors using boruto
facepalm
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STOP BRING BLEACH HERE
Please
Please
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The ol' VBW switcharoo
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Yeah.
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But yes, we need to talk about 7-A Fused Momo and Kinshiki. I don't agree with the former though.
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7-A Fused Momoshiki is probably not a thing, considering he was consistently portrayed throughout entire fights to be on SPSM Naruto and Susano'o Sasuke's level, giving Naruto a difficult battle with his summons and peeling away the Susano'o with his Fire Release. His Kage showings are good examples of why relying on single panels where one survives a hit and then proceeds to get destroyed in all levels makes for atrocious scaling IMO, be it to argue 5-B Base Naruto or 7-A Momo.
Momo's ability to take on the Kages was stated to be an easy feat for him by those watching it. So he is clearly meant to be way stronger, based on that alone.
Momo's ability to take on the Kages was stated to be an easy feat for him by those watching it. So he is clearly meant to be way stronger, based on that alone.
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Yeah, but I really think we should discuss Kinshiki. The stuff that justifies his current ratings are:
- Planet splitting statement in the guidebook
- Tanking a stabbing / thrusting motion from Sasuke's Chidori sword
- Keeping up with Sasuke
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Dunno, but someone said it could be a reference to Toneri.
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It's probably a reference to him being able to slice apart the God Tree, which uses a world's worth of chakra. Without additional evidence we can't use it.
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Your argument that SPSM is his strongest form in any significant way, is dead, for sure. I haven't fully tackled Sasuke yet, except to prove his jutsu are 5-B outside Susanoo. But chill out, i'll address everything. My test comes first bro.Kepekley23 said:
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Realize that Kinshiki's "split the world" statement comes from a guidebook about the movie, a movie that is no longer canon due to the manga overwriting.
There is also the fact that that statement comes from a hype text in the guidebook, not am actual entry. Hypetext is where we also get universal Temari, they aren't actual data.
It's more like his 5-B feats are outliers with how many lower feats he has that make up the majority.
Note: I've been discussing Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki primarily. Fused Momo as I said:
The only thing that appears 5-B about either is Momoshiki Post-Upgrade in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B. There are more 7-A feats for Kinshiki and Momoshiki (pre upgrade) than 5-B feats.
There is also the fact that that statement comes from a hype text in the guidebook, not am actual entry. Hypetext is where we also get universal Temari, they aren't actual data.
It's more like his 5-B feats are outliers with how many lower feats he has that make up the majority.
Note: I've been discussing Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki primarily. Fused Momo as I said:
The only thing that appears 5-B about either is Momoshiki Post-Upgrade in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B. There are more 7-A feats for Kinshiki and Momoshiki (pre upgrade) than 5-B feats.
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> Now, let's start by saying there is no basis for Base Naruto not equaling Base Sasuke. They both recieved SPC in their base states.
Yeah, Base/Rinne-Mangekyo Sasuke and Base Naruto are probably equal to each other in physical abiity. Sasuke has no 5-B feats though. Him bisecting Madara was done with a Chidori infused Kusanagi, which massively amps its piercing power as stated. It's not a physical strength feat.
Skipping the wall of text and going directly to the important part:
> It does not grant Naruto the ability use the SPC he was gifted by Hagoromo, this notion itself is proved False by Sasuke, whom himself doesn't have SPSM, yet:
Way to obliterate the context behind it. Sasuke doesn't have SPSM, but what he does have is the Rinnegan in order to channel his six paths power. Which awoke when he received Hagoromo's chakra and activated Indra's inherited chakra from within him. If this was meant to prove that one does not need a medium to use SPC, it failed harshly.
> Time and Time again, Sasuke has demonstraighted 5-B AP without Susanoo
Whre are those numerous, consistent 5-B feats he has to speak of?
> That Chakra he had was amplified by recieving Half of Hags Chakra, wheich amplified his base as well as Sasuke's.
It amplified his base. Saying it was amp'ed to 5-B is baseless at best. We have one solid and direct 6-B destructive feat for his base in the Toneri movie. Nothing else.
Yeah, Base/Rinne-Mangekyo Sasuke and Base Naruto are probably equal to each other in physical abiity. Sasuke has no 5-B feats though. Him bisecting Madara was done with a Chidori infused Kusanagi, which massively amps its piercing power as stated. It's not a physical strength feat.
Skipping the wall of text and going directly to the important part:
> It does not grant Naruto the ability use the SPC he was gifted by Hagoromo, this notion itself is proved False by Sasuke, whom himself doesn't have SPSM, yet:
Way to obliterate the context behind it. Sasuke doesn't have SPSM, but what he does have is the Rinnegan in order to channel his six paths power. Which awoke when he received Hagoromo's chakra and activated Indra's inherited chakra from within him. If this was meant to prove that one does not need a medium to use SPC, it failed harshly.
> Time and Time again, Sasuke has demonstraighted 5-B AP without Susanoo
Whre are those numerous, consistent 5-B feats he has to speak of?
> That Chakra he had was amplified by recieving Half of Hags Chakra, wheich amplified his base as well as Sasuke's.
It amplified his base. Saying it was amp'ed to 5-B is baseless at best. We have one solid and direct 6-B destructive feat for his base in the Toneri movie. Nothing else.
- 5-B Chakra + 6-B Chakra = Insignificant Buff
- Status
