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Naruto Upgrades

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Burning Full Fingers said:
Base Momoshiki is already 5-B with the Bijuudama for making Naruto struggle with it, and then knocking him out.
Click to expand...
That's misleading and missing context.

Momoshiki had literally absorbed several Jutsu and taken several pills to amp his power before making the Bijuudama. Yet, it was still weaker than SPSM Naruto's Bijuudama.

That's not a Base Momoshiki, that's a temporarily amped Base Momoshiki.

With how consistent and numerous this scaling is as I pointed out, Base Momoshiki, Base Kinshiki, Base Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are physically not 5-B. It's only after Momoshiki fuses, when Naruto goes SPSM and the Rock Golem overpowers Kurama that we are seeing consistent 5-B feats (but fused Momoshiki has the issue of his striking strength not being 5-B due to the Kage instances).
 
Smh...Kep, this is sad. I'll respond in a bit, but hurts me to see you grasping at straws like this. Hell, your arguments just plain false, but i'll address it properly.
 
@2017

Yeah, I know that but I believe Base Momo's stats already take that into account as he's shown to be more or less useless without chakra pills and absorbed attacks.

Maybe we should have two keys for base Momo; with and without chakra pills. Don't know if it can work though, but I don't care enough.
 
@Kep

"Yeah, Base/Rinne-Mangekyo Sasuke and Base Naruto are probably equal to each other in physical abiity. Sasuke has no 5-B feats though."

Wrong. I proved this AND provided scans of it. Your argument is dimissed until you can bring proof otherwise.

"Him bisecting Madara was done with a Chidori infused Kusanagi, which massively amps its piercing power as stated. It's not a physical strength feat."

Um...Sasuke isn't holding his Kusanagi Blade. Infact, he doesn't even have it and I never said this was a "Physical 5-B Feat", just a 5-B Feat, which it is.

"Skipping the wall of text and going directly to the important part:"

Of course. I expected this because you can't combat it.

"Way to obliterate the context behind it."

There is no contect behind it, only facts. Bring proof of context and i'll concede. Even then, I never once said it wasn't his strongest for, just that it's not Significantly stronger than his base, which is a proven fact, but of course you're ignoring the facts.

"Sasuke doesn't have SPSM, but what he does have is the Rinnegan in order to channel his six paths power."

Tenorljdhlkgl
Bro...What're you talking about?


"Which awoke when he received Hagoromo's chakra and activated Indra's inherited chakra from within him."

And your proof of this is....? Sorry, but no, this is a baseless assumption.

"If this was meant to prove that one does not need a medium to use SPC, it failed harshly."

No, your argument failed harshly as it's full of baseless assumptions and factless opinions. I provided proof to back my claims. You have yet to post a single scan disproving this and i'm still waiting.

"Whre are those numerous, consistent 5-B feats he has to speak of?"

They were just ignored by you, of course, that's where. Oh and let's not forget Six paths Chibaku Tensei.

"It amplified his base. Saying it was amp'ed to 5-B is baseless at best."

Yes it amplified his base and you claim it's baseless, yet I just provided proof that it's not...

>Provide proof to back my claims

>Calls my claims baseless with no proof of his own

SociableTemptingGharial-small


"We have one solid and direct 6-B destructive feat for his base in the Toneri movie. Nothing else."

Not arguing 6-B and it was casual while he was falling unconcious and he didn't have a scratch. I think that itself backs my claim further...But this is pointless to bring up, it proves nothing.

"So insignificant that the databook directly states SPSM Naruto's chakra is much stronger than Kurama Mode Naruto's. That already makes your argument collapse in on itself."

Except I proved, using the databook itself mind you that SPSM doesn't have Chakra. Read the actual description, ontop of that SPSM Naruto was using the 5-B SPC he recieved from Hags that is not apart of SPSM in the first place, so stating this is pointless. And yes, insignificant still considering Kurama Mode is nothing but a drop in the ocean to the 5-B power recieved by Sasuke and Naruto.

"Because Base Naruto is wholly unable to take on Toneri, while KCM3 Naruto with all his focused chakra literally one-shots him."

Because KCSM Naruto is 10x stronger Base/SPSM Naruto. And because I know you're going to bring this up, facts are:

  • Base Naruto = 5-B (Proven and you have yet to debunk it)
  • KCSM Naruto = A little weaker than Ashura Avatar thanks to SM 10x boost in power above his base. (Where that 2 yotatons I was talking about come from).
^Now, i wanted to talk about this after and separately, but seeing as you guys want to continuously bring it up, here we are. So, to disprove it, you have to:

  • (1) Disprove Base Naruto isn't 5-B (And Word of advice, you saying it ain't so without proof isn't "Proving" me wrong, it just makes your arguments that much worse against an argument which provided proof)
  • (2) Prove SM doesn't offer a 10x boost
"Yet, the databook states by itself, that SPSM Naruto is vastly stronger than KCM3 Naruto, who is already able to one shot foes Base Naruto can only keep up with."

Except the databook doesn't state that and Base Naruto can't touch Toneri because he's 10x Weaker than Toneri. (Check above)

"Yet we're supposed to believe that Base Naruto can already utilize the power up induced into him by Hagoromo without stronger forms."

Yes, because that is what the facts prove and suggest and as implied with multiple fights, Naruto only really needs the superforms due to speed and other minor attributes not AP related (The Momoshiki fight implies this heavily)
 
Pics aren't necessary. It'd only serve to heat the thread up further. About Sasuke, I think we're discussing about his physical stats and not ninjutsu.

Concerning the two yottatons, my problem with it is that SPSM + Kurama Mode is portrayed to be Naruto's strongest form. If he was indeed ten times stronger with Toad Sage Mode, he'd have used it against Fused Momo as he obviously needed a boost. And then it'd imply that Toneri is > Momo. So to me, saying KCSM is stronger is something like headcanon. No offense.
 
Ashura avatar with NE > Full power RSM with TSB&9 Biju chakra >BM+Base RSM>KCM+Base RSM>Base RSM>KCM+SM>SM>Base naruto

lol he has so may form

i see why others dont want 5-B base naruto lol
 
"So wait, you're saying Base Naruto > Momoshiki > SPSM Naruto = Momoshiki > Base Naruto?"

I'm saying Base Naruto has the AP to Kill Momoshiki. If you actually payed attention to my posts. I agree that SPSM is > Base naruto, just not in any truely significant way (Which I proved). Momoshiki Physically being able to pressure SPSM Naruto has nothing to do with Ninjutsu AP which is > their physicals (And it's proven).

  • Via Ninjutsu AP: SPSM Naruto > Base Naruto > Momoshiki Durability. | Momoshiki w/ Golem (Which is a Jutsu) > SPSM Naruto (Physically)
"Because Boruto is obviously not on Momoshiki's level going by your scaling chain, with or without his Rasengan chakra, and this is obvious."

Nobody is talking about Boruto or even implying he's remotely close to Momoshiki's level....?

"So what you are saying here is that Naruto, without being amped at all, can provide the chakra to blast Momo to pieces, despite being forced into SPSM as soon as Momoshiki landed the literal first hit on him, and he can provide said chakra nigh effortlessly at that?"

Yes, because that is what the feats and facts prove. And Naruto only needed the form for speed purposes. As proven, SPSM isn't signiicantly above Base Naruto. You can keep claiming the opposite, but you never will post proof otherwise, thus it's pointless to argue with you, but here we are....

"Do I even have to point out what's wrong with this feat?"

Yes, because so far, you haven't done anything else, basically.

"Base Naruto did not even get affected by said hit. He met it evenly and didn't have his arm broken, nor even scratched. And, despite performing such a good durability feat, he still felt entitled to go to RSM."

  • (1)This post lends credence to my 5-B Physically argument.
  • (2)This post proves speed was the only real factor, nothing else.
You're literally digging your arguments own grave with this...

"Despite the fact Momo was unable to do significant damage to Base Naruto, he easily made both RSM Naruto and Kurama struggle significantly with his Golem."

Said Golem is Ninjutsu (Check above)

"In fact, it was difficult enough that Kurama needed the Susanoo armor in order to compete with it. He could also one-shot said Susano'o protection from Sasuke, despite Base Naruto being enough to clash with him evenly. So Base Naruto has a durability feat putting him at stronger or at least comparable levels to a massively amped state."

You are confusing Ninjutsu AP with Physical AP. Momoshiki Pressured SPSM Naruto Physically with his Golem, which is a Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu AP > Physical AP. Sasuke combining his power with Naruto Made PS Kyuubi Physically stronger than Momoshiki's Ninjutsu created Golem. Base naruto's AP (Which isn't significantly lower than SPSM Naruto's) is greater than Momoshiki's Physical Durability. Simple and proven.

"From all of this...do you realize how just messy and illogical scaling becomes if you accept one single panel where a lower character is shown not being destroyed in one hit by the stronger one as proof of anything solid, at all?"

Except in this case, that's not true in the slightest and there is nothing you can post to prove otherwise. So....your argument here is dismissed.

"Do you know why we need entire battles to solidify a tier, and to demonstrate the character is indeed on that level? Because of stuff like this."

Except i proved my point, you only talk a good game and are being hypocritical and have yet to actually post proof to enhance your faulrty arguments. Canon > Your opinion...Proof > Your Opinion...Facts > Your opinion. You need to get one of those 3 for your argument to be relevant, because I'm tired of going in circles with you when yopu don't do anything but talk. you don't put in the work to try to accurately disprove me and why should I concede when you can't pull up the facts to make me? You want to act condescending, well two can play that game. Bring the prrof or else we're done here. Concede.

"Base Naruto is clearly not comparable to Momoshiki."

Except he killed him, so wrong.

"He is forced into RSM as soon as Momoshiki is about to land his second hit, and has one single panel where he lands a hit on him."

Because of speed, not AP (And you contradict yourself here btw) so try again.

"He is not meant to be able to tank and give back such hits, and to say he is makes for disastrous scaling."

Except you have no proof to back this claim whereas I have posted proof throughout the thread.

"Sasuke: People have already said what I think about Limbo for me, so I'll skip that one."

Said arguments are either debunked or rely on noncanon sources which is automatic grounds for dismissal, so....not looking good for you guys.

"Yet another brief, one-panel scan that, if taken literally, leads to disastrous scaling. So, we're seeing Sasuke take a direct hit from Kaguya. He is not sent flying any farther than Naruto is, is not roughed up any further by the hit too. He tanked that hit just as well as SPSM Naruto did."

Yes, suddenly that "One Instance" you harp on become 2 (And you're contradicting yourself as you even stated: "Do you know why we need entire battles to solidify a tier, and to demonstrate the character is indeed on that level? Because of stuff like this")

Well:

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0679-011


"Yet this exact same Sasuke needed his Susano'o in order to match SPSM Naruto evenly, as shown several times in VOTE."

Except, that's not how it happens. SPSM Naruto needed Kurama's avatar to match PS. Don't try to twist it.

"The track record is consistent with Base Naruto = Rinnegan Sasuke without Susano'o physically."

Exactly. And SPSM Naruto isn't proven to be > Base Naruto significantly physically. What feats does SPSM Naruto have that say he could physically dominate his base in anything but speed>

  • Fought Limbos h2h (Cute, Sasuke Tanked Direct Hits from Limbo's and being tossed around that caused both him and Naruto to equally explaim from the same feat) .
SPSM Naruto is insignificantly above Rinnegan Sasuke and Base Naruto as proven several times.

"Yet we are supposed to believe that Rinnegan Sasuke can take hits from Kaguya just as well as SPSM Naruto can."

Yes, because nothing states otherwise. Unless you have proof, which you don't, so....

"Sort out that scaling for me now in a manner that won't require headcanons and another batch of 1,000 threads in the matter that wouldn't be necessary if we analyzed each battle in depth instead of picking one single scan and latching into it permanently."

Read above^

"The rest speaks for itself."

Yes, it does.
 
> Wrong. I proved this AND provided scans of it. Your argument is dimissed until you can bring proof otherwise.

I debunked all the physical feats you brought up. You have yet to reply to even a single word of what I said in that post.

> Um...Sasuke isn't holding his Kusanagi Blade. Infact, he doesn't even have it and I never said this was a "Physical 5-B Feat", just a 5-B Feat, which it is.

Are we reading the same thing? Chidori Kusanagi is a legit jutsu Sasuke has, that is stated to amplify the piercing power of Sasuke's sword several times over. Said jutsu doesn't scale to Base Naruto at all, it is strong enough to harm even a serious SPSM Narut.

> Of course. I expected this because you can't combat it.

There is a sore lack of relevant-to-the-discussion arguments in the wall of text. I only highlight the important things, not irrelevant verbose.

> Bro...What're you talking about?

Can you at least read what I said correctly before jumping withou understanding a single word? I said he needs his Rinnegan in order to channel his Six Paths chakra. This is undeniable.

> They were just ignored by you, of course, that's where. Oh and let's not forget Six paths Chibaku Tensei.

I'm waiting for the post I made debunking them to get a reply from you instead of a handwave.

What about Six Paths Chibaku Tensei? That feat is not physical either. Seems like you misunderstood my whole argument, again.

> And your proof of this is....? Sorry, but no, this is a baseless assumption.

Next time check the actual chapter before jumping on what I say instantly.

> Yes it amplified his base and you claim it's baseless, yet I just provided proof that it's not...

Said proof got a rebuttal.

> Not arguing 6-B and it was casual while he was falling unconcious and he didn't have a scratch. I think that itself backs my claim further...But this is pointless to bring up, it proves nothing.

The literal only feat we have for Base Naruto after Hagoromo's amp that is not via scaling to the Kages is irrelevant?

> Except I proved, using the databook itself mind you that SPSM doesn't have Chakra.

6588069-six paths


"'Kicking the "Truth-Seeking Ball"! Exceeding the Kurama Mode, a feat accomplished by a huge chakra""

Debunked.

> ontop of that SPSM Naruto was using the 5-B SPC he recieved from Hags that is not apart of SPSM in the first place, so stating this is pointless

The claim that Post-Hags Naruto is 5-B outside of SPSM has nothing backing it up.

> And yes, insignificant still considering Kurama Mode is nothing but a drop in the ocean to the 5-B power recieved by Sasuke and Naruto.

Wait, so Six Paths Sage Mode is said to exceed Naruto with half of Kurama's Chakra and to have huge chakra, but it's irrelevant despite your claim that SPSM Naruto is not any stronger than Base Naruto?

> Base Naruto = 5-B (Proven and you have yet to debunk it)

I don't need to debunk something that is baseless aside from your own opinion. This is blatant reversal of the burden of proof. Even then, I've already done it in the post you replied to anyway.

> Prove SM doesn't offer a 10x boost

Is Toneri stronger than Momoshiki?

> Except the databook doesn't state that

Check above.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
Pics aren't necessary. It'd only serve to heat the thread up further. About Sasuke, I think we're discussing about his physical stats and not ninjutsu.
Concerning the two yottatons, my problem with it is that SPSM + Kurama Mode is portrayed to be Naruto's strongest form. If he was indeed ten times stronger with Toad Sage Mode, he'd have used it against Fused Momo as he obviously needed a boost. And then it'd imply that Toneri is > Momo. So to me, saying KCSM is stronger is something like headcanon. No offense.
Click to expand...


  • It's not portrayed as his strongest form though, Ashura Avatar is. It's stronger than his base, sure, but the proof shows it's not by a significant margine.
  • Except he didn't require it. Feats show Naruto had the AP to kill Momo with just his SPC, non NE amped, he just couldn't use Ninjutsu because of the Rinnegans (The handicap of that fight becomes more apparent with all things considered now.
  • I'm not offened by this, but BFF, even you agree that SM buffs 10x. Tenseigan Toneri matching KCSM Naruto, who would be 10x Stronger than his Base is not headcanon. It's only headcanon if SM doesn't give a 10x buff in power. Yet, we accept that it does.
It's not my fault the feats and facts dictate KCSM > SPSM due to SM buff and that Base Naruto is not significantly weaker than SPSM Naruto.
 
Bruh why are people still ignoring Sasuke slicing through Momoshikis wood style jutsu Sasuke literally tanking physically attacks from Momoshiki getting up as well


Anything else about 7A Momoshiki shouldn't even be discussed anymore. Time and time again the scene was used to display Momoshikis power in Boruto's eyes which can one shot the strongest ninja in the world. Boruto was assuming Naruto and Sasuke were of the same level as the Kage, Kishi used this scene as way to open Boruto's eyes to show just how strong Naruto and Sasuke are compared to the Kages of the world.
 
Also, where does 10x for Sage Mode even come from? Is it via scaling from Orochimaru's cursed mark?
 
It amplified his base. Saying it was amp'ed to 5-B is baseless at best. We have one solid and direct 6-B destructive feat for his base in the Toneri movie. Nothing else.


kep u calc their moon moving feats each at 10.4 zt and it was done by base sasuke so how is not amplified his base near 5-B?
 
Logically SM should be 10x multiplier because it enfuses natural energy into the body just like Jugos clan who passively uses natural energy to grow stronger.

Sasuke in whe war with Jugu enhanced Susanno was elevated to be comparable to Naruto using BSM mode who had recently been 6B and in BSM is high 6A
 
I'll deal with the rest tomorrow, I spent enough time on this today. But seriously, you haven't debunked anything Kep. You haven't even posted proof to debunk anything, let's get real. I'll reply to your post rebuttle tomorrow.
 
> But seriously, you haven't debunked anything Kep. You haven't even posted proof to debunk anything, let's get real.

Nice argument.

And I'll deal with your other post tomorrow because I have more important things now.
 
It is this simple.

Base Naruto has consistently demonstrated the ability to fight characters who are 5-B physically and via attacks. Him stomping Madara as soon as he gets revived, him fighting against Momoshiki, and him fighting against EoS Sasuke who fought Momoshiki physically later in his life, and was blown away in a similar way to Amped Naruto— and didn't die like he should if he was physically inferior.

Him amping Boruto with Chakra to Blast Momoshiki away in his base is the AP Base proof you need. TFO posted that, or referenced it kn his post.

Sasuke scales to Naruto because he fights people Naruto fights physically, and in both forms. Naruto scales to Sasuke physically because he does the same, to a lesser extent. The only rational conclusion is that Naruto is using the mode amp for speed, because these "one off" instances happen far too often.
 
I agree that the instances happen too often but Naruto isn't just using the mode amp for speed. It increases his versatility and AP and senses

Also that wasn't base Naruto who fought Madara
 
And, again, Base Naruto is not equal to SPSM Naruto, this is self evident. He gets a massive amp when he goes into Kurama Mode, one-shotting Toneri when he focuses all of his chakra into his arm. So KCM3 Naruto is stronger than Base Naruto.

SPSM Naruto > KCM3 Naruto > Base Naruto.
 
It might as well have been. We get some cool eyes we never see him use again, even as he repeats the feats in similar scenarios.

Parts of Keps argument stem from him having the belief that base Naruto is supposed to be amplified by this SPSM cloak to a point that his base cannot contend with.

He admits this is consistently demonstrated, but in his attempt to deconstruct that, he cites Naruto using his big Chakra Gundam against Sasuke's own big Chakra Gundam to suggest that base Sasuke is inferior to SPSM Naruto. Which is contradicted by the fight between Sasuke and Kinshiki, against Momoshiki, and in the brief skirmish they have in the beginning of their fight at the VotE.

I understand why he would think that, the idea that his base form is comparable to is amped form goes against every implication and typical shonen trope, but in the same way we wouldn't accept the Kaioken if it wasn't consistent, in the same way we don't accept statements that directly contradict feats, we have to go with what is shown over what is told in this case.

That is my take away from parts of Kep's argument. I'll address others that I feel are important. But in short, the verse, by his own admission, presents this consistently. "The track record" suggests that Naruto and Sasuke are equal base to base. While it breaks what we would believe is true about SPSM, what is demonstrated is the consistency you continue to dismiss. The circular scaling is truly strange, but it only means that SPSM amps speed mostly, giving a negligible increase in physical strength, and amping AP even further.
 
Originally we weren't wanting to scale Naruto to SOSP form, he probably just got caught up in what the others were saying.

We just wanted to scale Naruto Base Sasuke who should physically be 5B with taijutsu cause he was able to destroy Momoshikis mokuton jutsu and tanking attacks from Momoshiki as well which means his base durability is 5B
 
Also, considering Sasuke's new sword managed to stab through Adult KM Naruto but his old sword, while amped by Chidori, only sent SPSM Naruto flying as opposed to piercing him, I would definitely say there is a possibility to be considered that the sword itself is what is 5-B.
 
😂😂ƒñÀÔÇìÔÖé´©ÅI don't even know bruh but at this point we should upgrade Boruto and Kawaki then to physically 5B in the future.

Seriously tho the could be 5B like you said.
 
Unknown. We don't know how strong he is, moon crater aside.

Anyway, I'll be heading out to a friend's house now, I'll come back tomorrow
 
The feats are consistent though. Which is more important— the notion that we should take this transformation's standing to be above feats? Or taking Feats as they are given to us.
 
SPSM being Significantly stronger than his Base is based on a misconception which my proof shot a hole through but of course, detractors can't post proof otherwise, yet their arguments are still being entertained...
 
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