- 14,409
- 1,692
no one knows what any of those swords are made of honestly cause the Totsuka blade is a spirit weapon but its considered a varient of the kusanagi bladesSigurd Snake in The Eye said:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Naruto Upgrades
- Thread starter TheFinalOrder
- Start date
- Status
- 182
- 18
we should create a new thread this thread is becoming too long.
- 14,409
- 1,692
Need a new thread
- 4,327
- 2,978
I'm a bit worried you don't.Amexim said:
Character X has an attack or a weapon that is 5-B. Character Y can survive those attacks, and dish out similar damage by clashing with those attacks or weapons directly. Character Y can harm Character X, and character X survives, because they are durable enough to take it. It is basic scaling logic— which would only be rejected if there is a large amount of viable information to go off of.
Your mistake here is because you think the weapon is 5-B, we don't have anything going for that.
He scaled Sasuke's Sword to Kinshiki, and then Kinshiki to Sasuke, which would have to make sense in order for the physics of that scene to play out—
Astral is the one scaling Kusanagi, Kep is not as Kep is talking about Chidori Blade.
The mistake here is the initial scaling between Kusanagi and Kinishiki. Kinishiki's rating is already a gray area due to his feats being consistently 7-A in striking and durability. Also, the other mistake is leaving out that Sasuke used Chidori Blade, not just Kusanagi, when he hurt Kinshiki. However, this doesn't even cut Kinshiki, yet the possibly 7-A Chojuro does pierce Kinshiki with his jutsu.
Kusanagi's lone feats this arc would be crossing blades with Kinshiki's blades, but Kinshiki's blades have poor showings too:
Scaling doesn't work, 5-B is not consistent and would be an outlier even.
especially since everyone wants to ignore the fact that Sasuke survives being blown back in the same way a 5-B character does, by the same type of enemy.
You're just ignoring the rebuttals at this point then. Kep and I both repeatedly address this. If you need to reread the discussion, then do so.
People want to ignore the fact that Kinshiki and Momoshiki have to be comparable to Kaguya anyway, especially in H2h, as Naruto in SPSM was throwing 5-B hands with her.
Moving this section up here as well since they are connecting parts.
What is the first thing we know about them? That they are a threat and intimidating from Kaguya's perspective. She needs an army of fodder to help her win against them. But they're only 7-A physically? When Kaguya herself is able to casually brush them aside with her bare hands alone?
They don't have to be comparable to Kaguya, nothing says they are physically comparable to Kaguya.
The only statement was that Kaguya prepared for them and that Sasuke deemed them a potentially greater threat than Kaguya. Which is true because Momoshiki and Kinshiki have Chakra Pills, they are a greater amp than anything in the series. Them making more and ravaging worlds for more make them a greater threat than Kaguya.
Think of it this way. Say you know how to make bombs and are being compared to Conor McGregor.
Conor McGregor has greater speed, AP and durability than you by miles. However, you would be a greater threat due to your ability and potential in making bombs.
That's Momoshiki and Kinshiki, they're a greater threat due to Chakra Pills and passing down power in their family.
In any case... The information you present is not viable. Not only do we know that Sasuke and Naruto should be far beyond the Kage Physically due to their exploits in Part 2,
We know SPSM Naruto and Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke are, but this whole discussion from the very start has been about the physicals of Base Naruto and Sasuke.
Also, the Kage from Part 2 are not the Kage from Boruto except for Gaara.
Also, the entire discussion from the start was not that Base Naruto and Sasuke are equal to the Kage, it's that they are at least above them since they performed better than the Kage.
Again, if you are lost in the discussion then reread it.
but your Saitama comparison is so on point that you actually destroy your "tier 7 is more consistent argument". Since you understand what "At least" is for, and why we have Saitama there even though we know it's likely higher, we DO NOT limit him by his casual showings, like you are.
We limit Saitama's tier by his best showing since we know he's stronger than he is because it's what we can prove, it's why he's High 6-A.
You acknowledge these characters aren't going at their maximum output, and yet you restrict Fused Momo to his casual feats when he has 5-B feats that are not casual because his casual, non-max output feats are more consistent?
I've never restricted Fused Momoshiki to his casual feats, I said that Fused Momoshiki is casually 7-A in striking and would be casually 7-A when he struck Base Naruto since Fused Momoshiki was only utilizing 7-A striking in this scene.
On top of this, Fused Momoshiki, Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki have not one 5-B striking feat.
Fused Momoshiki's only 5-B feats are his durability (taking hits from SPSM Naruto) and the Lava Golem (overpowered Kurama).
Do you know how that sounds, my guy? That's denying a Galaxy Level upgrade for Saitama at max power because his casual feats are more consistent. That's allowing bad writing like "a bullet from a normal hand gun" downgrade him to 9-A, all because an event that was in YOUR opinion "needless for the plot" for him to get shot by 25 people 25 times in the same event— one chapter or two. The whole thing would be 1 big throwaway event. You're probably gonna say "Momoshiki and Kinshiki don't have feats otherwise! So it's not TECHNICALLY an Outlier, so we would have to take it if Saitama only had 1 casual 7-A feat, and was shot multiple times!"
The difference here is we know Saitama is stronger, his lower feats are simply him being casual, we don't know his upper limits.
Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki do display upper limits. Consistent struggles with 7-A characters.
Fused Momoshiki however displays 5-B feats, just not in striking strength as he has not one.
Them being 7-A in striking would also make them slower than her too— since they fought against Kage who aren't Relativistic in any regard beyond doing the dirty work of the writers and presenting the scene with suspense for the SAKE of PLOT. PIS, it is. So, that means Kaguya blitzes Kinshiki and Momoshiki casually.
I agree for Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki, Fused Momoshiki however has displayed relativistic speed feats with SPSM Naruto, Kurama and such.
That makes no sense given what we have in the story. It goes against the first fight we see in the movie or arc of the manga. Please just stop. This is downplay.
Movie isn't canon, this side against the downgrade need to stop using non-canon material.
The first fight of the manga was of Bourto fighting a panda.
However, if you're thinking of Base Sasuke fighting Kinshiki then that fight doesn't support your argument. Kinshiki is consistently 7-A in physicals and Sasuke matches Kinshiki in physicals.
Again, the point of this thread was the OP trying to make Base Sasuke 5-B in physicals, Base Sasuke currently isn't and it's validity is being discussed currently. If it gets accepted, then you can make this argument, but currently it's not.
An outlier doesn't literally have to be an outlier to be called that. You should know by now that this community doesn't always have words that have specific meanings or specific uses, because situations like this happen— where we have consistent feats that don't make sense. We would call it WIS or PIS or CIS depending on what was done, but we still ignore stuff in the plot that doesn't mesh well with the rest, no matter how consistent it is. This community doesn't have hard and fast definitions for outliers because we have to flexible with our use an analysis of it— because shit like 7-A MHS Monoshiki and Kinshiki happens, when we know that doesn't make sense because Kaguya would view them as trash beyond their Jutsu Casting, and that wouldn't be a problem if she just blitzes them normally.
WIS is Writed Induced Stupidity, it's commonly used for comic books where we have multiple authors and some that don't know the character they are writing as much as a previous author, thus that character's showings are bad. It's not applicable to Naruto nor Bourot.
PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity, for when an action, sequence or event must occur for the plot to move forward. Such as Sakura punching Kaguya down, that needed to happen for the plot to advance with Kaguya's defeat. However, PIS is not applicable to Boruto in this entire arc. The plot did not rely on any event except that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are defeated.
CIS is Character Induced Stupidity, for when characters act out of character. Not applicable here at all.
Again, Kinshiki would have to be MHS in order for the scene to make sense with him being ****** up by the Kage. If we're gonna scale strength where it should, we should do the same for speed.
I agree, which is why I brought it up in the first place.
It's not even consistent feats because you're taking all the instances that prove your point from LITERALLY the SAME situation that is being seen by EVERYONE besides you as "Bad Writing"— PIS because the writer needed to make the scene suspenseful and make all the Kage look cool— and WIS because the writer failed to understand how strong these characters are supposed to be and that he didn't need to have the Kage appear as strong as they did for the plot.
They are consistent. The majority of their feats for Base are back to back 7-A feats throughout the entire arc. That is the definition of consistency.
Neither PIS nor WIS is applicable as the plot did not rely on these scenese and there is only one writer who knows their characters. The writer made the physicals of base Momoshiki and Kinshiki at a consistent level since 99% of their feats are 7-A. Only Fused Momoshiki displays consistent majority 5-B feats.
- 14,409
- 1,692
IMade it seems you got lost in this thread. Kep was talking about the Chidori blade at one point whihc is correct. But Kep also started talking abotu the Sword as well. Sasuke's new sword bruh. Like im not gonna even get into all this cause i know what sword Kep was talking about. He even said himself the sword has more 5B feats than Sasuke. Its not hard trying to infer what sword from the next gen Kep was talking about when he has only been shown using the sword and the sword.
- 2,938
- 365
**** this. I agree with the some of the terms you define— in so far as they generally fly around what I think most people think they are, but that right there, ain't it chief.
WIS shouldn't be limited to multiple writers, shouldn't be limited to comics— that's just defining your terms outside of the conversation just to defeat an argument— when I am sure most people can agree that WIS is when the writer is a dumbass and writes something that doesn't make sense in general— be it a scene with bad scaling, or a needless scene that makes little sense in the first place to even be a part of the story. It's for all manner of bullshit caused by the writer. You're not gonna just sit here and throw around definitions for terms that have very flimsy meanings— isn't that arguing semantics?
It seems like you're just floating around the points, because while everything you said is technically true, it's still in valid. Taking a page from Kep's book- he is under the impression that it makes no sense for Base Naruto to be so close in AP and Speed to his amped form. This is based off of all the available information given about the form, about the other transformations of a similar nature. This is from his perspective.
We are given information that states that Kaguya is afraid of Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Based off of what we know about Kaguya, her 5-B, Relativistic Speed bunny ass should be able to casually demolish the Kinshiki and Momoshiki you are trying to describe in a fight. They're too slow for her. She blitzes then immediately and shuts them down before they even get a chance to use 5-B Jutsu if they have any from your perspective. This contradicts what was stated before, which is that these characters are threats to Kaguya— someone Naruto and Sasuke with their God Amps had immense difficulty dispatching as they were before they became adults and got stronger than those Versions of themselves.
We have Sasuke punching away Momoshiki in the manga and throwing more hands with him in multiple versions of this story, one of which is the first version of these events written and directed by the creator of this Series— the one that was originally canon before this new version, which does very little to change scaling in general. We have him cutting through some of Kinshiki's Earth Style Dog Jutsu Which should be 5-B, and therefore another 5-B feat for Sasuke. We have Sasuke being blown back by a limbo clone. Yeah, it was by his sword, but if Sasuke was really as weak as you believe, he would have gotten blown back far more than that. His sword would have been knocked out of his hand, arms ripped off, or at the very least not knocked away in the same way 5-B Naruto was, saying OW from the impact on the ground, and both of them getting back up unscathed.
Why you continue to go against every bit of corroborated evidence in favor of accepting a contradictory position is beyond me. I ain't never seen this, I am FLABBERGASTED. But to just say "it's not PIS" because it didn't "need to happen"— when there was an entire narrative purpose for it, going against your overly rigid definition that nobody uses as rigidly as you describe— is also bullshit. You deliberately ignore the narrative purpose of the scene and horribly assume that writing a story is as simple as "Momoshiki and Kinshiki get beat."
It's bad writing, plain and simple. It contradicts every bit of information we are given about the villains, as well as feats from Sasuke himself— the slashing of the Dogs without chakra around the sword, the survival of being knocked away by a 5-B individual, him knocking Fused Momoshiki away with a legit punch. These villains are supposed to be a threat to Kaguya while unfused, but they're being thrashed by human Kage who cannot react to them— and yet are able to tag characters who are consistently Relativistic despite not being able to handle these Kage level fools who should be in slow motion to them even if they were caught off guard.
This scene makes no sense, and you are trying to take multiple panels and events from the same faulty scene to substantiate your argument— as though those connected feats (connected by plot and their nature as a writing tool to affect the audience with hype and suspense) are all single instances that don't just circle back to each other and their purpose in the story. Saying PIS isn't PIS because it happened twice in a row isn't a valid argument. And using a very precise and rigid definition for PIS that no one besides you uses is also not a valid argument. More often than not, PIS is used for "dumb shit that doesn't make sense" in the same vain as an "outlier" is. No one adheres to these ultra precise definitions, so they're not even good debating tools when using semantics— considering the general public defines these improper, non-scientific, urban dictionary-esque terms that this community makes up and throws around.
Just stop. No one agrees with you, and I have reason to suspect that not even Kep agrees with you.
@Kep, do you think that Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki are 7-A, given the fact that despite them being threats to Kaguya, the Kage can clean them up with mid to high difficulty? Or does that last part not sound right? Is this it, Chief?
WIS shouldn't be limited to multiple writers, shouldn't be limited to comics— that's just defining your terms outside of the conversation just to defeat an argument— when I am sure most people can agree that WIS is when the writer is a dumbass and writes something that doesn't make sense in general— be it a scene with bad scaling, or a needless scene that makes little sense in the first place to even be a part of the story. It's for all manner of bullshit caused by the writer. You're not gonna just sit here and throw around definitions for terms that have very flimsy meanings— isn't that arguing semantics?
It seems like you're just floating around the points, because while everything you said is technically true, it's still in valid. Taking a page from Kep's book- he is under the impression that it makes no sense for Base Naruto to be so close in AP and Speed to his amped form. This is based off of all the available information given about the form, about the other transformations of a similar nature. This is from his perspective.
We are given information that states that Kaguya is afraid of Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Based off of what we know about Kaguya, her 5-B, Relativistic Speed bunny ass should be able to casually demolish the Kinshiki and Momoshiki you are trying to describe in a fight. They're too slow for her. She blitzes then immediately and shuts them down before they even get a chance to use 5-B Jutsu if they have any from your perspective. This contradicts what was stated before, which is that these characters are threats to Kaguya— someone Naruto and Sasuke with their God Amps had immense difficulty dispatching as they were before they became adults and got stronger than those Versions of themselves.
We have Sasuke punching away Momoshiki in the manga and throwing more hands with him in multiple versions of this story, one of which is the first version of these events written and directed by the creator of this Series— the one that was originally canon before this new version, which does very little to change scaling in general. We have him cutting through some of Kinshiki's Earth Style Dog Jutsu Which should be 5-B, and therefore another 5-B feat for Sasuke. We have Sasuke being blown back by a limbo clone. Yeah, it was by his sword, but if Sasuke was really as weak as you believe, he would have gotten blown back far more than that. His sword would have been knocked out of his hand, arms ripped off, or at the very least not knocked away in the same way 5-B Naruto was, saying OW from the impact on the ground, and both of them getting back up unscathed.
Why you continue to go against every bit of corroborated evidence in favor of accepting a contradictory position is beyond me. I ain't never seen this, I am FLABBERGASTED. But to just say "it's not PIS" because it didn't "need to happen"— when there was an entire narrative purpose for it, going against your overly rigid definition that nobody uses as rigidly as you describe— is also bullshit. You deliberately ignore the narrative purpose of the scene and horribly assume that writing a story is as simple as "Momoshiki and Kinshiki get beat."
It's bad writing, plain and simple. It contradicts every bit of information we are given about the villains, as well as feats from Sasuke himself— the slashing of the Dogs without chakra around the sword, the survival of being knocked away by a 5-B individual, him knocking Fused Momoshiki away with a legit punch. These villains are supposed to be a threat to Kaguya while unfused, but they're being thrashed by human Kage who cannot react to them— and yet are able to tag characters who are consistently Relativistic despite not being able to handle these Kage level fools who should be in slow motion to them even if they were caught off guard.
This scene makes no sense, and you are trying to take multiple panels and events from the same faulty scene to substantiate your argument— as though those connected feats (connected by plot and their nature as a writing tool to affect the audience with hype and suspense) are all single instances that don't just circle back to each other and their purpose in the story. Saying PIS isn't PIS because it happened twice in a row isn't a valid argument. And using a very precise and rigid definition for PIS that no one besides you uses is also not a valid argument. More often than not, PIS is used for "dumb shit that doesn't make sense" in the same vain as an "outlier" is. No one adheres to these ultra precise definitions, so they're not even good debating tools when using semantics— considering the general public defines these improper, non-scientific, urban dictionary-esque terms that this community makes up and throws around.
Just stop. No one agrees with you, and I have reason to suspect that not even Kep agrees with you.
@Kep, do you think that Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki are 7-A, given the fact that despite them being threats to Kaguya, the Kage can clean them up with mid to high difficulty? Or does that last part not sound right? Is this it, Chief?
- 14,409
- 1,692
Kep doesnt agree with 7A bro lol he disagreed literally. imade is the one keeps pushing for that and this thread has been derailed because of it.
- 8,188
- 1,377
@Amexin
The thing is we have proof that Base Naruto/Sasuke r 5B but scaling to VEEY CLOSE to their godlike powers/transformation is a HELL NO for me. I know for a fact that they r 5B just that it's in the lower AP lvl. I guess others were saying that even Kep-sama disagrees with the 7A
Anyways we need a new thread
The thing is we have proof that Base Naruto/Sasuke r 5B but scaling to VEEY CLOSE to their godlike powers/transformation is a HELL NO for me. I know for a fact that they r 5B just that it's in the lower AP lvl. I guess others were saying that even Kep-sama disagrees with the 7A
Anyways we need a new thread
- 4,141
- 419
he is the only one who think god tier is 8/7-A.
he even think boruto knocking momo is not PIS. what a BS
even a chunin can/did stomp both sarada and boruto same time effortlessly
at this point he is not helping other than spouting nonsense and trolling and i am not sure why no one reporting this?
this is worse downplay i have seen after joining vsbattles.wikia
he even think boruto knocking momo is not PIS. what a BS
even a chunin can/did stomp both sarada and boruto same time effortlessly
at this point he is not helping other than spouting nonsense and trolling and i am not sure why no one reporting this?
this is worse downplay i have seen after joining vsbattles.wikia
- 5,454
- 1,847
I asked what tier he should be if 5-B is disagreed upon. This is Keps answer concerning Base Naruto.Kepekley23 said:
- 4,141
- 419
agreeBlackeJan said:
momo is above 400ZT so PS sasuke and RSM naruto with full power (excluding ashura avatar)at-lest 400ZT
base sasuke & base naruto would be only base planet lvl 59.44ZT atmost 100ZT in my opinion
if there base is 59.44 ZT than at full power they would be close to 7x time stronger than there base form
- 8,160
- 2,190
@Omimi
I mean if you're so hurt by his comments go type up a report.
I mean if you're so hurt by his comments go type up a report.
- 2,047
- 778
Omimi said:
Please calm down. You've been acting like this for the majority of the thread. I can understand why you'd be upset over some disagreement but you really should try better to remain calm and polite.
As for the matters on this thread I'm neutral.
- Status
