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In canon if no knew already shows that Narutos chakra isn't blue, his chakra is the color Gold drawn by Kishi in the manga. Kishi directed the The Last movie which is why Narutos Rasengan and FRS are Gold as well as Narutos Base chakra enhanced punch which one shotted Toneri
 
1.)Momoshiki isn't hurt by Boruto's Vanishing Rasengan. So it's not an argument for anything. Pointless to bring it up. Knocking over an opponent who isn't focusing on you isn't proof of damaging them.

2.)That is keeping up, Naruto doesn't have to throw a hit. The feat speaks for itself as pointed out to you multiple times. Naruto is shown reacting, dodging and blocking and tanking hits from Momoshiki. You saying that's not keeping up is simply false...

3.)Momoshiki's casual showings of 7-A strength is irrelevant. They were casual. The bare minimum of his AP, which has no barings on his Top. You realize your argument here hinges on Sasuke, right? 5-B Sasuke = Momoshiki striking being 5-B. Their striking scales from durability anyways, but hat's going to be a whole other argument with you, which I don't have time to get into RN, so i'll prove the 5-B striking via feats instead for now.

4.)Your argument is faulty here:

0676-006
We see Sasuke in Mid Swing, yes, but he doesn't finish his swing. This is evident in the placement of his arms (Which kills any argument that he blocked with his Sword). His body motion itself proves he was struck as here is a comparable scene in characters getting knocked back. (Note: Pay attention to Sai and Naruto's Body Language upon being hit). Sasuke was knocked back by a limbo clone, his motuion poves he didn't block a strike. We know it was a strike given Naruto himself had to block one attacking Sakura. And Sasuke isn't hurt because he has 5-B durability....pretty self explanatory.
So yes, Sasuke has 5-B Durability for withstanding an attack from a Limbo clone that knocked him and Naruto back. (PROVE SASUKE DIDN'T TANK AN ATTACK) Your sword argument is dead.


5.)No, it's not just for "Effect". You're not going to write it if it doesn't serve a purpose. SFX in Comics and Manga are a big deal. It's a visual medium and they are written to illustrate to the Reading wtf is going on. So, no.

6.) -Rolling My Eyes-

7.) Well, I just proved Sasuke did infact tank a hit from a Limbo, making him 5-B. And their striking does scale from their durability. You have it backwards. Just like IRL, your Striking is at least comparable to your durability. Striking can exceed Durability it's just you can't scale durability from striking. The entire point of Taijutsu is to physically harm your opponent. Even in IRL, Boxing, Jujitsu, MMA, etc. Denying this is a essentially denying reality itself. How about you prove Taijutsu isn't meant for Ninja to physically harm one another, then i'll concede. Infact, bring several instances of Striking not scaling from Durability in addition from Naruto and you won't see me bring it up again.

7.5.) You contradict yourself here as well:

  • SPSM Naruto has 5-B Physicals (To which you agree)
  • Momoshiki tanks Serious hits from SPSM Naruto making him 5-B in Durability (To Which you agree)
  • Base Naruto supplies Chakra to Boruto's Rasengan that Kills Momoshiki, whom has 5-B Durability (You agree that that Rasengan is 5-B)
Yet it's "misleading" to say Naruto killed Momoshiki?...You serious rn? The feat proves Base Naruto's Chakra (Thus his Ninjutsu) is 5-B. This Also proves Their Ninjutsu is Higher Grade of 5-B than their physicals (Which has always been the case). So even if you do not agree with Base Naruto being 5-B physically, he is 5-B with Ninjutsu for supplying the Chakra to kill Momoshiki.

8.)There is no "Buts" in regards to Naruto and Sasuke fighting the Same Madara:

Naruto also didn't defeat the Limbo's. We see them fighting for a bit then nothing and we know they didn't defeat the Limbo's because of Sasuke's Statement here. You want to say Naruto is "Outperforming" for having better AoE and SC, sure. The point is, they're still comparable as the above 2 feats prove. Again, AoE =/= AP and you have the audacity to talk about "Casual" showings? You realize how hypocritical this is in regards to Momoshiki?

9/10.)Moot point? Sasuke is still proven 5-B Ninjutsu wise and Physically speaking and Naruto is only superior in that:

  • BM + Half Hags Chakra was > EMS (At That Point) + Half Hags Chakra, when Biju Mode was only Small Country level to Country level (Which is insignificant)
11.) Well I have...your proof holds no weight here as it is now. You have to come with something better.

12.)Except he has. You even agreed if you read above. The only thing shoddy is your arguments against it, which are based on Sasuke not being 5-B, which is based on a false understanding about what's portrayed.

Facts:

  • Momoshiki has 5-B physicals (Proven in him hurting Sasuke and Tanking SPSM Naruto's strikes )
  • Base Naruto supplied the Chakra to the Rasengan that killed Momoshiki (Proving his Chakra and Ninjutsu are 5-B)
  • Sasuke Tanked Madara's Limbo Clones knocking him away (Proving he has 5-B physicals)
  • Base Naruto even in VoTE 2 was shown being comparable to Sasuke in all but speed. (Cementing Base Naruto having 5-B physicals)
If you want to prove Naruto isn't 5-B physically, prove Sasuke did not tank a Limbo attacking him in the scan above. even then, Naruto is 5-B with Ninjutsu, so, Naruto would still have 5-B AP which at least scales to Toneri's Tenseigan Chakra Mode.
 
I'll repeat what I said on Shadow's blog.

There's literally no plot reason for Base Naruto to be assumed as capable of equaling the energy output he showed in SO6P, which was a massively amplified s4ate. He wasn't stated to have trained significantly, showed nothing that'd suggest his SO6P powers also amped his base, nothing at all. Basing everything on single-panel exchanges and off-instances is not good scaling.

Also, Sasuke without his Susano'o is clearly not equal to SPSM Naruto like the one-panel instances would suggest. I don't need to explain why this is. Looking at their track record against both Madara and Kaguya, and also common sense due to the fact this is base Sasuke vs. a massively amplified Naruto who Base Sasuke needs a massive amp to take on, should tell you enough.
 
Sasuke is still 5B physically but obviously not on the same level as Naruto. I don't know why we try to deny the 5B physically feats Sasuke has. We aren't scaling Sasuke to SOSP Naruto but to base Naruto. SOSP Naruto has his own scaling. Sasuke physically should scale to Momoshiki and destroying Momoshikis jutsus. Sasuke also scales to Kinshiki because Kinshiki is physically 5B for being able to send Sasuke flying whose durability is 5B consistently.

Also we aren't scaling base Naruto to his SOSP form. His base is naturally stronger after inheriting Hags chakra which is used to amplify the body by using chakra control. Base Naruto should be likely 5B from his feats
 
Also he obviously literally showed things that are proving that his SOSP chakra amped his baseƒÿæ if he didn't we wouldn't be here today on this thread when his base has 5B feats
 
Kepekley23 said:
I'll repeat what I said on Shadow's blog.
There's literally no plot reason for Base Naruto to be assumed as capable of equaling the energy output he showed in SO6P, which was a massively amplified s4ate.

TFO Wrote: "Except Naruto has feats that says otherwise, and aaside from your assumption, what really puts SPSM Naruto above Base Naruto in more than speed?"

_______________________________

He wasn't stated to have trained significantly, showed nothing that'd suggest his SO6P powers also amped his base, nothing at all. Basing everything on single-panel exchanges and off-instances is not good scaling.

TFO Wrote: "There is no difference between Sasuke and Base Naruto other than Naruto has Chakra modes. If Sasuke's Base was amplified, so was Naruto's you are making 0 sense here. Mind you, SPSM isn't even SPC nor contains it. It's a state of mind that only gives Naruto:

*Masters Level Understand of Chakra Control

*Flight

*Better Reation Speed

Base Naruto can use SPC outside of SPSM (Which his feats portray) and is implicit with the fact that Sasuke can as well, without having SPSM , so your argument here Kep, is baseless, faulty and false at the same time. And no, they aren't simply one off instances my dude."

_________________________________


Also, Sasuke without his Susano'o is clearly not equal to SPSM Naruto like the one-panel instances would suggest. I don't need to explain why this is.

TFO Wrote: "I'm not gonna get into this with you bro, simply put, what does this have to do with Sasuke tanking Limbo's hits making him 5-B physically?"

__________________________________


Looking at their track record against both Madara and Kaguya, and also common sense due to the fact this is base Sasuke vs. a massively amplified Naruto who Base Sasuke needs a massive amp to take on, should tell you enough.

TFO Wrote: "For starters get it right, only Kaguya, not Madara. Second, again I ask, what does this have to do with Sasuke's Feats? Sasuke has shown 5-B Physicals in tanking Madara's Attacks and dishing out 5-B AP."
 
Kepekley23 said:
I'll argue this later when I have the time to.
Before start, Note that "Plot" doesn't really put SPSM above Base Naruto in AP in a significant way and since you want to harp on "common sense", you should really think about why before jumping in...and before you start with any nonsense, remember that Sasuke doesn't have SPSM either and both his Base and AP are 5-B via feats.

Naruto Recieved:

  • SPSM (Has nothing to do with SPC, read the DB before commenting please)
  • 50% Hags Chakra ontop of his own
Sasuke Recieved:

  • Rinnegan (Sasme Boat as SPSM)
  • 50% Hags Chakra ontop of his own
So Logically and via Plot and the Narritive, aside Ashura Avatar, Naruto and Sasuke are in the same ball park with Naruto having an Insignificant AP Advantage.

You'd be crazy to incinuate Base Naruto post recieving SPC isn't 5-B when Sasuke is. That is nonsense at best.
 
Well hey let's not forget this one amazing feat....Base Adult Naruto chakra was enough to make Borutos Rasengan (very tiny/not powerful) beat Momoshiki. Not only that but they EXTREMELY CASUALLY + Low on chakra made a moon

Who did anything about scaling Naruto to his SOSP? (Unless that how I've read it) I mean even during that final battle Sasuke was using his RinneSharigan (which is 5-B) against Base Naruto (who was having a hard time staying in there but could take hits from Sasuke) so that's already says right there that Base Naruto is 5B. Base Naruto also stayed strong going against Fused Momoshiki + Base Sasuke got hit by those black rods and was still alive
 
> TFO Wrote: "Except Naruto has feats that says otherwise, and aaside from your assumption, what really puts SPSM Naruto above Base Naruto in more than speed?"

Base Naruto needs to concentrate all of his chakra in KCM3 to one-shot Toneri. SPSM is massively above KCM3 in every single aspect. Do the minimum math.

> There is no difference between Sasuke and Base Naruto other than Naruto has Chakra modes. If Sasuke's Base was amplified, so was Naruto's you are making 0 sense here. Mind you, SPSM isn't even SPC nor contains it. It's a state of mind that only gives Naruto:

Show me feats from Base Sasuke that aren't based on single instance panels where he is shown surviving one single hit. Show me feats that suggest he is indeed able to consistently keep up that level throughout entire scuffles without needing Susano'o to keep up. Or else you'll be upgrading the Kages to 5-B via them surviving hits from Momoshiki. But you don't do that because everyone would notice it's PIS.

Yeah yeah, Base Naruto is able to call on his other forms and use chakra from them. But that's literally irrelevant to his strength without them.

> I'm not gonna get into this with you bro, simply put, what does this have to do with Sasuke tanking Limbo's hits making him 5-B physically?"

Any other feat from him suggesting he is at all on that level?
 
Just think of SPC as the same as Goku absorbing SSG in base and still being able to transform cause it's literally just like that
 
That's baseless. All we know is that he got stronger. Arguing he is 5-B is ridiculous, however, because it creates hordes of scaling problems when you take into account the circularity ("Sasuke = SPSM Naruto via scaling despite this being extremely obviously not the case").

And said scaling problems require headcanons to solve.

He's better off left at Unknown.
 
Well, you don't particularly need statements that people have trained significantly for them to randomly become stronger. It's just like war arc characters. Prime example is Kakashi. He just had better feats from nowhere. As a matter of fact, nothing suggests Kakashi underwent gruelling training or anything of the sort during the first timeskip. Also, Kazekage Gaara who's stuck in his office most of the time. This kind of logic should only be used for washed out guys that we know have reached or surpassed their prime such as A and Onoki.

Before anyone says "B-But Kakashi showed better use of Kamui during the war and he generally has better feats!", it's literally the same for Base Naruto. He showed better use, control and applications of Rasengan than he did in most of his cloaked forms before the timeskip, and he tanked a Country level attack with virtually no damage with depleted chakra. Compare that to Teen Naruto and Sasuke who got their arms taken off after a clash of visibly less magnitude when they were more or less out of chakra, and the difference is clear.

I have no problem with Base Naruto being Unknown, like we agreed upon previously.

Also, with Sasuke I think of it this way; we've seen from his final clash with Naruto that if he doesn't have enough durability, he'll be harmed after ramming Chidori into something. Based on him being just fine in other instances of clashing Chidori with Rasengan, I don't think there's any problem with saying a fresh Rinnegan Sasuke will be totally okay after using Chidori against Rasengan or something. He also cut through Momo's ninjutsu physically without getting a broken arm or anything like that.
 
So, would we be willing to upgrade the Kages to 5-B via scaling too? They have more 5-B durability feats than Base Naruto via tanking Momoshiki's attacks several times, yet we don't scale because surviving hits is meaningless if you are obviously not meant to be on the same tier as the character. It's PIS.
 
Who said Sasuke = SPSM Naruto? I mean when he has his RinneShrigan yeah they r equal but hey even then Base Naruto survives hits from Momo + Sasuke without RinneSharigan took hits from black rods and was also still alive. Base Naruto was also hanging in there when facing Sasuke (who had his RinneSharigan out) so again that still says a lot right there

EDIT: Wait Momo basically one shot them without killing them so how in the world would they scale anyways? Not only that but Base Naruto was still hanging in there when taking on Momo
 
@Kep


1.)Naruto's Chakra Mode in the Last is above SPSM (Not Ashura Avatar). Don't worry bro, that will be addressed in my 2 yotaton CTR coming soon, so chill out. Not to mention the last is irrelevant atm in this regard.


2.)Wtf is wrong with you guys? It's like the notion of something being casual is foreign. Not everything is at the highest level, you "should" know that and Momoshiki was casual, so your spiel about the Kages is pointless and irrelevant drivel. Momoshiki attacking is a casual feat denoting the lower cap of his AP. Show me him taking them seriously and i'll concede....oh wait, you can't.


And I have posted another feat for Sasuke, read the damn thread. Even then, I don't have to post anything else because nothing is contradicted, there are no anti-feats against Sasuke tanking Limbo hits. If you want to push the issue, come at me when you get rid of that one single High 6-A feat you cosigned on that everyone and their ******* mother in bleach scale from or any other verse scaling from another characters single feat, unless ofcourse double standards are only ok when NV is involved. Let me know now.
 
@Burning

That we don't need established and solid ranking upgrades to be allowed to scale without it being PIS.
 
@Blacke

Base Sasuke being able to tank a hit from Kaguya without being any worse for the wear than SPSM Naruto when he takes the same hit suggests their durability is hypothetically equal.

Prepare me a scaling chain where Base Sasuke = SPSM Naruto works out without a thousand and one scaling issues. If you can't, then it's likely he is not that strong.
 
TFO, I can't agree with that first part as I said in the discussion thread. SPSM is portrayed to be his strongest form.

@Kep

What does that have to do with my point? I really don't understand.
 
Kepekley23 said:
@Blacke
Base Sasuke being able to tank a hit from Kaguya without being any worse for the wear than SPSM Naruto when he takes the same hit suggests their durability is hypothetically equal.

Prepare me a scaling chain where Base Sasuke = SPSM Naruto works out without a thousand and one scaling issues. If you can't, then it's likely he is not that strong.
Look above. It's there, you're argument is irrelevant as it doesn't prove anything.

Bring Contradictions, Anti-Feats, anything that says Sasuke doesn't scale to 5-B physically and i'll concede. You opinion lacks any weight with no proof. I showed 2 feats, you just through nonsense my way. Gotta do better than that bro.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
@Kep


1.)Naruto's Chakra Mode in the Last is above SPSM (Not Ashura Avatar). Don't worry bro, that will be addressed in my 2 yotaton CTR coming soon, so chill out. Not to mention the last is irrelevant atm in this regard.


2.)Wtf is wrong with you guys? It's like the notion of something being casual is foreign. Not everything is at the highest level, you "should" know that and Momoshiki was casual, so your spiel about the Kages is pointless and irrelevant drivel. Momoshiki attacking is a casual feat denoting the lower cap of his AP. Show me him taking them seriously and i'll concede....oh wait, you can't.


And I have posted another feat for Sasuke, read the damn thread. Even then, I don't have to post anything else because nothing is contradicted, there are no anti-feats against Sasuke tanking Limbo hits. If you want to push the issue, come at me when you get rid of that one single High 6-A feat you cosigned on that everyone and their ******* mother in bleach scale from or any other verse scaling from another characters single feat, unless ofcourse double standards are only ok when NV is involved. Let me know now.
@TFO Calm down.
 
@Kep

That's RinneSharigan Sasuke though not Base form....in order for them to take on Kaguya they need the power Hogoroma gave them. This also makes sense since Base Naruto was having immense trouble keeping up with RinneSharigan Sasuke during their fight (was still hangin in there) + how would their be a scaling issue of Naruto/Sasuke r in their own league? Also if u mean about Momo vs Kages then I'm 100% sure Momowasnt even trying given the fact that he one shotted then while smiling but Base Naruto was able to stand his ground vs Momo

@TFO

Calm down man like I understand u want his 5B to happen but getting mad shouldn't work like that so again calm down
 
Kepekley23 said:
That's baseless. All we know is that he got stronger. Arguing he is 5-B is ridiculous, however, because it creates hordes of scaling problems when you take into account the circularity ("Sasuke = SPSM Naruto via scaling despite this being extremely obviously not the case").
And said scaling problems require headcanons to solve.

He's better off left at Unknown.
I think Unknown is a bit unfair given that he did take more hits than the 7-A Kage. Unknown but At least 7-A seems more reasonable imo.

But yes, it's ridiculous people are assuming Base Rinnegan Sasuke = SPSM Naruto when SPSM Naruto literally outperforms Sasuke every time in their tag team fights. The Kaguya fight is the perfect example since she was outspeeding Sasuke, one-shotting him when Naruto was overpowering her, injuring her, dodging her attacks and blitzing her.

I'm out atm due to Halloween stuff, I'll try to keep up as much as I can.
 
Kepekley23 said:
You again with your temper tantrums whenever someone disagrees. Chill out. It's a VS debate. Stop acting like a child.
It's not a debate. You have no proof to back your claims for this to be a debate.

If I ask for you to post scans showing contradictions in my argument or anti-feats, can you? Or are you gonna continue to throw a non-backed up opinion at me? That's why i get irritated and angry.
 
Well, I've actually never seen even a single second of Naruto until now but based of the evidence, 5B Naruto seems fine. Plus, hasn't Adult Naruto have to be stronger than his teenager self since he's grown much stronger since then?

I agree with 5-B base Naruto
 
I'm neutral on this, but we have to try and settle it amicably. Looks like almost everything starts with Sasuke, so let's gather everything said for him so far without Susanoo and go from there:

  • Tanks a hit from Madara's Limbo
  • Pierces through Cyclops Madara
  • Casually bisects Cyclops Madara with his blade infused with lightning
  • Pierces through SPSM Naruto with Kusanagi
  • Kinda harms SPSM Naruto with Chidori
  • Cuts through Momoshiki's ninjutsu
Is that all? Additionally, I think it's fair to say Rinnegan Sasuke could tank the force of his Chidori ramming into something, as he could do so in weaker states, even in his state at the Kage Summit.
 
Look, 5-B Physically Aside, It makes sense for Base Naruto to be 5-B with Ninjutsu. Not even IMade is arguing against that.
 
BTW, this is trying to upgrade Rinnegan Teen Sasuke to 5-B, right?

Because Adult Sasuke is 5-B through and through for fighting the likes of Momoshiki and Kinshiki.
 
1. Kep, what the hell is a "single instance" when we have Sasuke Consistently swapping hands with Limbo Clones, and SOSP Naruto, and Momoshiki? If you believe that this scaling is irrational, why haven't you provided a myriad of instances where characters physically destroy Sasuke? If Base Naruto isn't 5-B durability wise, explain why there are a vast number of scenes that showcase Naruto surviving blows from Momoshiki better than the Kage do— who Momoshiki casually slaps aside. Explain why Sasuke is then able to fight Momoshiki physically, when that same Momoshiki scales to 5-B SOSP Naruto.

2. I really don't think it helps for staff to come in with a negative attitude and then tell people to watch their tones. It's really disrespectful and assholish, and seems like an abuse of their position that comes about from this cognitive dissonance between their status as staff and what the standards of conduct they should follow and enforce upon the community and what they actually are as normal, flawed, human members of that community. Can people stop trying to calm everyone down before anyone has actually done anything? Warning someone who has no real intention of kirking out only makes this worse, and it's really disgusting.
 
BlackeJan said:
@Kep

That's RinneSharigan Sasuke though not Base form....in order for them to take on Kaguya they need the power Hogoroma gave them. This also makes sense since Base Naruto was having immense trouble keeping up with RinneSharigan Sasuke during their fight (was still hangin in there) + how would their be a scaling issue of Naruto/Sasuke r in their own league? Also if u mean about Momo vs Kages then I'm 100% sure Momowasnt even trying given the fact that he one shotted then while smiling but Base Naruto was able to stand his ground vs Momo
 
2. The only one being disrespectful here is you when you barrel into the thread just to accuse me of power abuse, like you do everytime a staff member strongly disagrees with a CRT (in order to try and steal attention away from the subject), without having understood a single word of the context behind my warning. I came in respectfully arguing why I strongly disagreed with the thread and got yelled at because TFO consistently can not handle debating someone with the opposite opinion without being disrespectful, and I'm usually the first to protect him from receiving any punishment.. Can the attitude, Amexim.
 
And I'm going away now and will return tomorrow morning when I'm under a leave from work so I can post scans. I will explain my position thoroughly by then. I don't have time to argue with three people at once by myself today, especially when I have more important stuff to do.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
I'm neutral on this, but we have to try and settle it amicably. Looks like almost everything starts with Sasuke, so let's gather everything said for him so far without Susanoo and go from there:
Sure

Tanks a hit from Madara's Limbo
That's not true, Sasuke is in mid-swing before the clash. The assumption that he tanks a direct hit to his person is simply that, an assumption while there is implication that and evidence that it was a clash of the Jutsu and the Limbo.

Pierces through Cyclops Madara
This is misleading, Madara ran into the blade. Sasuke's Amenotjikara can only switch places, it doesn't put force on an object to move it. Madara ran into the blade and pierced himself. Sasuke physically did nothing here.

Casually bisects Cyclops Madara with his blade infused with lightning
This happens. He uses Chidori on his blade and bifurcates Madara.

Pierces through SPSM Naruto with Kusanagi
This is misleading as well. Sasuke physically does nothing here as well. It's Shin Uchiha's Dojutsu that manipulates the blade towards Naruto and pierces SPSM Naruto.

Kinda harms SPSM Naruto with Chidori
Kinda is extrapolating, it only knocks SPSM Naruto backwards. He literally doesn't even get scratched by it. Solid definition of the line between tank and no-sell.

Cuts through Momoshiki's ninjutsu
This happens, but we've been arguing the rating of Momoshiki as well in this discussion given how he only knocks out the Kage that are at best 7-A (profiles for Chojuro and Kurotsuchi should be made btw, plus a key for Raikage Darui to grant that one 7-A durability).
 
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