I'll respond to each point and even quote since you keep thinking I ignore your points. You should also calm down, it's only a discussion about fictional characters of fiction. Don't resort to ad-hominem, attack the argument and not the character while maintaining manners.
TheFinalOrder said:
2.)In regards to Sasuke tanking a Limbos hit, yes, that is exactly what happens. For starters, I don't know if think you're talking to Elementary School kids or just someone who is blind, but anybody can see through the BS you're claiming here. You are the one making assumptions here. For starters,
the scan doesn't even show Sasuke completing a swing.
Facts:
- Sasuke has his sword raised on his right side.
- He's knocked back with his sword lowered on his right side.
Here is your misconception about the feat:
- If Sasuke had made a successful swing his sword would be lowered to his left or lowered to his right at AN ANGLE DIRECTLY CORRELATING TO THE IMPACT AREA And neither are the case.
Factually, Sasukes arms are not at angles to suggest he intercepted with his Chidori Blade. This is not an assumptions, it's a fact, look at the damn scan. His arms are at angles suggesting he was hit / braced to be hit. Sasuke has no visible damage because, he's physically comparable to Naruto (
Which is Consistently Portrayed across all Boruto Mediums: Novels, Movies, Anime, and the movie is a direct portrayal of the characters from both Kishi and Kodachi while the anime is a portrayal overseen and approved by Kodachi himself)
I have made no assumptions here, only you IMade, and it offends me when you claim I have when clearly i have not. So when you invoke "Occams Razor", it actually works against you as you are making the assumptions that:
- Sasuke Swung his sword (Which is not shown)
- Sasuke Intercepted a Limbo with his sword (Which the scan factually disproves as the angles of his arms don't match this nition you're pushing)
In conclusion for this feat, your argument here is headcanon and disproven by the scan itself.
I'm glad you brought up Occam's Razor, as we know via Occam Razor's, the option with the least assumptions is more likely to be accurate.
The option that Sasuke blocked Limbo uses 2 assumptions as you pointed out. Your belief that Sasuke was hit involves more assumptions however:
- Sasuke's blade that was brought down from the swing did not get between him and Limbo.
- Sasuke was physically hit (not shown).
- Sasuke was just not injured at all since he had no superficial marks.
However, I brought up Occam's Razor initially as a back up point since the events of the feat are clear enough for us.
The positioning of the Chidori Blade are enough evidence, for some reason you see them as proof Sasuke didn't swing which is rather odd since they are actually proof he did.
Sasuke is shown with his blade raised over his shoulder and in the panel of impact the blade is brought down. It's foolproof evidence that he did complete the swing since it did come down.
So no, Sasuke wasn't hit by the Limbo, nothing supports your assumption.
3.)SPSM isn't a Significant boost, as proven several times now, let's look at the Power Sets:
We wouldn't be having this discussion if it was proven, clearly it's not.
Base Naruto = 50% Hagoromo Chakra
That's not true.
Hagoromo gave Sasuke and Naruto most of his Chakra and each a different ability (
Naruto the Six Paths Sage Mode and
Sasuke the Rinne-Sharinga). However,
Hagoromo literally states that he gave away his Chakra which we know was to Naruto and Sasuke and
it was explicitly for the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei Jutsu as Kaguya points out.
Your claim would be a misinformed assumption.
Base SPSM = 50% Hagoromo Chakra (Naruto only used the Individual Chakra of the Biju Here for Ninjutsu only)
That's not true as I pointed above. Hagoromo gave them Chakra that was allocated for the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei seal.
He did give Naruto the Six Paths Sage Mode though as we are described in the databook page about the Six Paths Sage Mode
SPSM Chakra Mode (War Arc) = 50% Hagoromo Chakra +
Fractions of Biju 1-8 Chakras + 50% Kyuubi Chakra
The Chakra from Hagoromo wouldn't be included for this, that was allocated Chakra not used except for the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.
The cloak is the ability Hagoromo gave to Naruto, we are told this.
SPSM Chakra Mode (Boruto Era) = 50% Hagoromo Chakra + 100% Kyuubi Chakra
Naruto doesn't have Hagoromo's Chakra anymore as an adult. The Hagoromo Chakra was used for the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei seal.
Boruto Era Naruto is just 100% Kyuubi Chakra + The Other Bijuu Chakra (Confirmed in Shikamaru Hiden Novel) + Six Paths Sage Mode that he kept from Hagoromo.
He no longer has Hagoromo Chakra though since that was spent up.
Note: Combining the Chakra of All biju results in Six Paths Chakra. So War Arc SPSM Chakra Mode has an Unquantifiable Fractio
of Additional SPC when using all of the Biju's Chakra, not significant enough make a difference. And 100% Kurama's Chakra is 6-B, which is an insignificant addition to 5-B Energy, so SPSM Chakra Mode Naruto from Boruto's era is insignificantly stronger than even his base, let alone Sasuke.
Boruto Era Naruto: 100% Kurama + SPSM + Chakra of the 8 other Bijuu
War Arc Era Naruto: 50% Kurama + SPSM + Chakra of the 8 other Bijuu
War Arc Era Naruto did have 50% of Hagoromo's Chakra, but it was spent up for the Six Path Chibaku Tensei as I proved with scans above.
So, Yes, Base Naruto's AP and Durability are Equal to SPSM Chakra Mode with the War Arc Version being an
Unquantifiable Fractio above his Base and Sasuke and Boruto Era version being insignificantly stronger due to Kurama's Chakra Mode.
Entirely untrue as I've proven with scans while you've not provided a single scan for your claims, only your own words.
Boruto Era would be stronger thanks to 100% Kurama, but that is it.
All of this means, yes, SPSM is not a "significant boost" nor is my argument anywhere near "baseless", meaning Kaguya tossing Naruto and Sasuke and hurting both is a legitimate 5-B feat for both Naruto and Sasuke.
While it's baseless when we're presented with the descriptions and reasonings of the modes and acquisition/Chakra possession, it is also baseless via feats:
Base Momoshiki easily kicks away Adult Base Naruto.
This feat means Base Momoshiki's AP is around the level of Adult Base Naruto's Durability. For simplicity, let's say Base Momoshiki's AP = Adult Base Naruto's Durability.
You're currently trying to say that Naruto's AP and Durability is the same in Base and with Sage of Six Paths Mode. What you doesn't realize is that you're straight up contradicting yourself with this.
Fusion Momoshiki trades blows with Adult Base Naruto,
outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle. This makes sense since Fusion Momoshiki is stronger than before when he fought Adult Base Naruto at his base... yet immediately after this panel
Adult Base Naruto shifts to Sage of Six Paths to immediately overwhelm Fusion Momoshiki.
Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Sage of Six Paths Naruto that sends him flying while being in visible pain.
If Naruto's AP and Durability is equal in Base and Sage of Six Paths Mode, it absolutely makes no sense for Naruto to have overpowered Fusion Momoshiki with Sage of Six Paths Mode, it is literal proof that Naruto's AP increases. Naruto literally sends Fusion Momoshiki flying with a simple kick and an elbow literally rock's his world. If Naruto's AP was always the same then he would have done the same when he crossed arms with Fusion Momoshiki since he literally overpowers Fusion Momoshiki so easily with Sage of Six Paths.
Regarding your Momoshiki fight analysis, it doesn't change what I said. SPSM Chakra Mode here is insignificantly stronger than his Base due to an additionsl 6-B energy.
False once again,
the ratings listed for the SPSM Chakra Mode literally states it provides Offensive, Defensive and Supplementary boost per it's Databook page. That already disproves your theory. Naruto being significantly physically stronger upon activating his Cloak proves it as well.
Base Naruto wasn't on the offensive against Momoshiki. He blocked a hit, tanked a hit and dodged 2 hits before needing his Chakra mode to close the speed gap, because yes, that's the only thing it enhances.
It increases strength as I've shown and I will further show here through the demonstration of difference of power in the fight with Kaguya:
Sasuke:
Naruto:
Kaguya with Chakra Punches was able to destroy Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o with 4 hits and with an unknown attack she one-shot it as well.
SPSM Naruto not only matches Kaguya's Chakra Punches, he overpowers her at one time even.
By feats, SPSM Naruto > Perfect Susano'o which is massively superior to Sasuke's physicals.
As you yourself agree to, Base Naruto and Sasuke are physically similar in AP and Durability. So SPSM Naruto is superior to his Base given he is superior to Perfect Susano'o which is superior to Sasuke's physicals.
The only way to claim SPSM Naruto is similar to Sasuke's physicals would be you claiming Sasuke is physically similar to his Susano'o which is entirely fallacious and downright incorrect.
Base Naruto throughout the entire series has been overall slower than Base Sasuke. This is best illustrated in VoTE 2 where both Dashed at Each other at the same time, but Naruto barely moved 5 feet whereas Sasuke moved from Mafara's head to Hashirama's.
Base Naruto is slower than Base Sasuke, I can agree to this; however, SPSM Naruto is much faster as feats have proven.
Momoshiki is comparable to Chakra Mode Naruto and Sasuke in speed, Base Naruto can only react, but reaction alone is not enough to keep up completely. This is illustrated in the Manga and excellently portrayed in the Boruto Anime (Which Kep himself accepts as Supporting Canon, yet you continue to ignore...)
I'm not ignoring it, you just don't understand what Supporting Canon is and abuse it unknowingly:
The anime is supporting canon, not the main canon. There is a difference between the two and you should understand this to avoid future confusions such as this one. The manga is the main canon with the anime being an adaption, like any adaption it pads events out with filler to extend it into a propert 21 minute anime episode format.
Also, Fused Momoshiki was slower than SPSM Naruto and faster than Sasuke:
Facts: Sasuke has 2 legitimate 5-B Durability feats
If he does then you should post them and prove them, the current two you have been attempting to use as evidence don't work.
Sasuke is consistently portrayed as Physically equal to SPSM Chakra Mode Naruto and Momoshiki by both the creatot of the series and author of Boruto.
Sasuke is never portrayed as physically equal to SPSM Naruto while SPSM Naruto has multiple instances of being superior to Sasuke that I've provided scans for above in this comment.
SPSM Chakra Mode is not a Significant boost over His Base or Sasuke
Just incorrect, we are shown through Momoshiki and Kaguya that SPSM is a boost for Naruto.
Base Naruto is shown comparable to Sasuke Physically in all but Speed
I can agree to this, the difference between us is you believe in a 5-B Base Naruto which you have yet to prove.
Let's examine the fights now you're trying to use to mislead people.
You can't mislead people when you provide full context.
Vs Madara:
Both Naruto and Sasuke injured the same Madara (Single Rinnegan Eye JJ Madara)
Naruto destroyed Madara's Meteors and Fought his Limbos
Sasuke Destroyed a Single Meteor and Tanked a hit from his Limbos.
You shouldn't leave out context:
Sasuke:
Naruto:
Plus the fact that you have yet to prove Sasuke was hit by Limbo, the evidence points away from your belief.
This doesn't prove Naruto is stronger than Sasuke. How many times do I have to tell you, AoE =/= AP, and yes, your argument about the meteors attempts to Assert that Because Naruto could destroy more meteors at once than Sasuke, he's supperior....no. Naruto simply has better AoE.
No, that's better casualness.
Naruto casually threw out 6 BDRS that destroyed the meteors. Sasuke can casually destroy one meteor. Naruto is casually superior to Sasuke.
And in regards to him taking on the Limbos, Sasuke doesn't use Shadow Clones. It makes sense Naruto would take them on 4 v 4 and not 4 v 1. This doesn't prove Naruto is superior, just that he has a better arsenal in these situations.
Sasuke can use clones though.
Vs Kaguya: Naruto has faster reaction speed than Sasuke, sure.
And better speed all around:
Kaguya is too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke as she pulls him into another dimension.
Naruto is too fast for Kaguya to pull into a dimension (the same move she used on Sasuke who was too slow to evade) then Black Zetsu compliments Naruto's speedand Kaguya admits he's fast.
Kaguya is too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke to tag even when Sasuke is up close to her.
Naruto literally blitzes Kaguya from a distance and rips off her arm.
Naruto is so much faster, it's undeniable.
That is faster combat speed and travel speed than Sasuke.
Naruto has abilities that can amplify his Stats, Sasuke doesn't. Sure. Sasuke is still Equal to SPSM Naruto w/o Steam Release.
False again:
and then:
SPSM Naruto Chakra Punches = Kaguya Chakra Punches > Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.
So no, you are incorrect here, SPSM Naruto w/o Steam Release is superior to Sasuke's Perfet Susano'o which in turn is already superior to Sasuke physically.
Naruto Blitzing and Ripping off Kaguya's arm is an outlier. Especially when his strongest technique is only able to do superficial damage to her, once she has wasted a lot of Chakra and Stamina. Further more, Before this, Naruto couldn't even scratch her while being amped by Steam Release when she was holding back against him.
Steam Release was a punch that overpowered her punch and sent her crashing into a cliff, the ripping of her arm off was with claws. Different types of damage application.
We aren't told that the 9 unique Bijuudama Rasenshuriken is his strongest technique. His actual strongest would be the Rikudo Cho Odama Rasenshuriken, but he doesn't use it against Kaguya.
In regards to the Chakra punch clashes, Naruto was going all out against Kaguya Holding Back with a Smirk and still overpowered him.
What tells us Kaguya is holding back? I would agree she's being casual though since she's smirking and not straining herself. However, her goal was to defeat them, so she wouldn't hold back.
Naruto outperforms Sasuke against, Kaguya, not going to front, but nothing that Suggests he's superior. Sasuke with PS could fight Kaguya 1 v 1 for a short time, even tanking her Physical assault while Obito was dying. It was only destroyed when she resulted to use Chakra Blasts (Ninjutsu) which again, exceeds Physical capabilities. No, nothing Suggests Naruto can "easily" destroy Sasuke's PS.
I can copy paste what I've said above:
and then:
SPSM Naruto Chakra Punches = Kaguya Chakra Punches > Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.
So no, you are incorrect here, SPSM Naruto w/o Steam Release is superior to Sasuke's Perfet Susano'o which in turn is already superior to Sasuke physically.
So, Naruto would destroy Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o with at least 4 Chakra Punches.
His Best Feats against Kaguya is Steam Release (Again, Kaguya was holding Back and unharmed by a Direct Hit) and his Strongest Jutsu which Caused Superficial Damage to a weakened Kaguya (Same Kaguya Sasuke could Fight 1 v 1 before forcing her to use Ninjutsu.
I've pretty much answered this already above in this comment.
In VoTE 2, Sasuke without Susanoo could hurt Naruto. Naruto needed Kurama's full Avatar match PS. Granted Naruto didn't have Killing Intent, he was holding back too much as they both where clash with Jutsu capable of harming both their Avatars, to which Sasuke claims isn't close to enough to beat him.
Sasuke without Susano'o never injures SPSM Naruto, but he does knock him back when using Chidori. That is precisely it in terms of interaction between the two.
So no, Sasuke without Susano'o is not evenly fighting SPSM Naruto, SPSM Naruto has better feats against the same opponent as Sasuke.
So, while Naruto outperforms against Kaguya, he's nowhere near strong enough to beat Sasuke casually or easily, this is headcanon.
Again, SPSM Chakra Mode Naruto (War Arc) is only stronger than Sasuke by an Unquantifiable Fractio and again, the Movie and Anime's portrayal of the characters supports them being physically Equal. The Margine of Strength Naruto has above Sasuke is very small. Negligible in fact.
Astoundingly wrong while displaying an ignorance towards the fight against Kaguya.
Kaguya destroyed Sasuke's Susano'o with 4 Chakra Punches.
Naruto's Chakra Punches can match Kaguya's while his Steam Release can even completely overpower her.
Naruto very much easily destroys Sasuke's Susano'o.
4.)Idgaf about Base Momoshiki my dude. Only mentioned him once, and even then, saying he's not 5-B for casual feats is asinine. For starts, Base Naruto is 5-B physically, proven above.
Base Momoshiki is not 5-B because Base Momoshiki doesn't have a single 5-B feat:
So a completely Base Momoshiki has no actual solid 5-B feats. The only one for contention is kicking Adult Base Naruto; however, Adult Base Naruto being 5-B is what we are currently discussing, it can't be used as evidence for Momoshiki since Momoshiki is supposed to be evidence for Adult Base Naruto, otherwise that's even more circular scaling. So there is no feat for Base Momoshiki being 5-B and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for Base Momoshiki being Tier 7-A to possibly 6-C.
You have yet to prove Base Naruto is 5-B physically, once again, the whole point of this thread is you trying to prove this claim you made in the start of the OP.
Second, throughout chapter 5 of Boruto, we see Naruto, enhanced by Sasuke's Chakra physically straining against Momoshiki's Ninjutsu.
This is not Base Momoshiki as I stated and explained above:
Momoshiki makes Sage of Six Paths Naruto struggle with his Bijuudama. What is noteworthy is Momoshiki had literally absorbed several Jutsu and taken several pills to amp his power before making the Bijuudama. Yet, it was still weaker than Sage of Six Paths Naruto's Bijuudama. So a massively amped Momoshiki's AP < Sage of Six Paths Naruto's AP.
And in chapter 6, despite Naruto being Stated to be able to Easily Obliterate Momoshiki's strongest attack with his own Ninjutsu, it still harms Naruto physically.
Yes, shows that Boruto Era Naruto is stronger than he is durable as well, should be noted on his profile when this thread resolves. Still isn't Base Momoshiki.
As I have stated before and proven in the Manga since chapter 1 of Naruto, a users Ninjutsu AP > their Physical AP.
You've stated a lot of things, but you haven't proven a lot of things. You should utilize scans in your arguments.
Base Momoshiki Physical AP/Durability is whatever, idc, his Jutsu AP > SPSM Chakra Mode Naruto Physical Durability (Facts).
False, that was an amped Momoshiki and Naruto absorbed the damage fully. An actual explosion would be weaker due to surface area, but he shrouded the blast to absorb it fully.
Naruto's Ninjutsu AP in General (Base and SPSM Chakra Mode) > Momoshiki's Ninjutsu AP and Physical Durability.
If you mean Base Momoshiki, then yes I agree, it's easy for Naruto to be superior to a consistently 7-A character.
Fused Momoshiki's Ninjutsu AP > Naruto's Physical Stats.
Yes in terms of the Lava Golem:
Fused Momoshiki's Physical Stats ~ Naruto's Physical Stats
That's misleading as I revealed in the feat dump for Fused Momoshiki. His physical durability is 5-B by the looks while his striking is actually only 7-A feats, he has no 5-B striking feat.
PS Kyuubi > Fused Momoshiki's Ninjutsu AP / Durability
True indeed.
This is because Base Naruto and His SPSM Chakra Mode both have Hagoromo's 50% Chakra. The Chakra Mode just adds Kurama's Chakra ontop of that, which is negligible and only serves to amplify his speed. This is why Momoshiki was such a hindrance. It's PIS that Naruto didn't Finish him with his Chakra Punch like Toneri. Even without Nature Energy added, his chakra was enough to oneshot him already and Sasuke was strong enough to Oneshot both Kinshiki and Momoshiki tbf as he akso has 50% Hagoromo's Chakra.
Ahh, no as I've explained above. 50% Hagoromo is not at play here for either.
It's solely the SPSM + 8 Bijuu + 100% Kurama for Naruto.
But it is true that SPSM Naruto could have one-shot either Momo or Kin, including Sasuke with heavy hitting attacks.
The entire fight was PIS, but Momoshiki isn't 7-A. You can keep claiming that all you want.
An entire arc of consistent feats can't be PIS. An entire character's list of feats being a specific consistent tier can't be PIS. You can keep calling PIS as you'd like, but that won't change PIS' definition and won't be applicable here.
His travel speed is no indication of power, so it's stupid to bring it up in the first place,
This thread has shifted a bit towards a downgrade thread, so might as well kill two birds with one stone here. Thus I brought it up, plus the fact it shows how overestimated Momoshiki and Kinshiki currently are since such a slow feat of their's is ignored.
Naruto characters without Cloaks are susceptible to Cutting / Piercing attacks, so him blocking attacks that do that is backed by precedence,
It should be specified then that 7-A and lower bladed/piercing attacks will harm Momoshiki and Kinshiki on their profiles.
taking out the Kages is a casual showing of power. By no means his cap physically. He's already hurt Sasuke and Naruto Physically. Portrayed in both movie and anime to be physically comparable.
Base Naruto is currently listed as Unknown while Sasuke was only 5-B with Perfect Susano'o as his last description said.
The Kage are 7-A (only Gaara is actually) which would mean that Fused Momoshiki is consistently displaying and utilizing 7-A striking strength:
All of Fused Momsohiki's feats... not a single 5-B striking feat. He literally only has 7-A striking feats.
Like what more do you want? To be spoon fed like a ******* baby?
Scans for your claims would be nice. Solid reasonings with foundations to support them as well.
On top of that, Striking Scales from Durability, not the other way around. Saying anything otherwise unless a verse has specifically shown otherwise is asinine and idiotic.
Just like IRL, your Striking is at least comparable to your durability. Striking can exceed durability, it's just you can't scale durability from striking. The entire point of Taijutsu is to physically harm your opponent. Even in IRL, Boxing, Jujitsu, MMA, etc. Denying this is a essentially denying reality itself. How about you prove Taijutsu isn't meant for Ninja to physically harm one another? Infact, bring several instances of Striking not scaling from durability in Naruto.
Fiction doesn't abide by our real laws of physics. We have characters more durable than they are strong or stronger than they are durable.
For example, Might Guy with the Eighth Gate. He's listed as 5-C in AP while Unknown in durability.
5.)Finally, the scaling: SPSM Chakra Mode Naruto scales to 5-B physically for his own feats
Yes, SPSM Naruto has his 5-B feats.
Sasuke Scales to 5-B physically for tanking Limbos attacks and Kaguya's toss.
Neither are valid as I've explained.
Base Naruto Scales From Sasuke
I can agree to this, you just need to find an accurate tier for Sasuke's physicals, or find an accurate tier for Base Naruto to scale to Sasuke's physicaly.
So far 5-B is not valid.
Fused Momoshiki scales from SPSM Chakra Mode Naruto
Durability wise, yes.
Lava Golem wise, yes.
Everything else, no.
He literally has no 5-B feats except in terms of durability when he got punched by SPSM Naruto and the Lava Golem overpowering Kurama. That's it.
So no, it's not "Circular", you only claim that when you ask for direct striking feats and we provide.
Ahh, but you see here, no one has provided anything.
You haven't even linked a single scan in this comment so far.
And it is circular scaling, your next few words are going to prove it for me:
- Base Naruto matched Sasuke
- Sasuke has 5-B Durability feats
- Momoshiki Could hurt Sasuke Physically
- Base Naruto could Keep up with Momoshiki for awhile
Naruto to Sasuke, Sasuke to Momoshiki, Momoshiki to Naruto. That's circular scaling.
And again, the portrayal of the characters in the Anime and Movie supports me. You are only working under assumptions....
I find it ironic you claim I work under assumptions when I'm the only one who posts scans. I actually provide context while undoing the veil of potential assumptions since I give evidence for my words to show I am not assuming.
Even in this comment you made to refute my scan filled comment above, you didn't provide a single scan, not one piece of context and just filled it with your own words. If you do reply back to me, please actually post some scans so we can have a discussion here.
And again, the anime Momoshiki arc is an adaption of the main canon manga. The anime has filler sequences to pad the episode like all anime adaptions. We don't treat anime adaptions as canon, but we do treat actually stated canon arcs as canon, which doesn't happen here.
Link to One of My Previous Posts you ignored:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2286211#85
I've already addressed everything in this comment already in my
previous comments on
this thread.
I addressed every line in this comment as well, so you can't claim I'm ignoring evidence.
