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Naruto Upgrades Part 2: 5-B Base Naruto and Sasuke

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@IMade

I did state though. U keep ignoring that a 5B is scared of two other 5Bs which already explains a lot + I find it funny that after all I've said in the comment I only look at the "threat" statement I've said. If Fused Momo is taking on 2 5Bs and Base Naruto/Sasuke is still staying in their without going down ESPECIALLY not being one shotted then that just proves that they r 5B. U even admitted yourself that SOSP/RinneSharigan is 5B and again Fused Momo took them on yet Bass Naruto/Sasuke can still keep going and get back up + Base Sasuke got hit with black rods from Fused Momo and Bass Naruto put ALL of his chakra into his sons Rasengan which basically one shotted Momo (don't forget that both Naruto/Sasuke was lol beating Fused Momo during the fight)

Anyways again then anime is secondary canon by what @Final and @Kep agreed on so looking at the episode can give ya more background of what's going on
 
Dear god, the mother of all walls of text...@IMade, why?

(I'll try to respond "in detail" when I get to a computer)
 
Also, @IMade:

  • You keep retorting Kep, yet I have already addressed his argument there.
  • I have already disproven your analysis of the Limbo interaction (Multiple People Have Infact).
You're beating a dead horse here. Sasuke is 5-B physically with These feats against Madara and Kaguya. On top of this, the Botuto's anime portrayal of the fight with Momoshiki supports my stance.
 
@Kep THANK YOU!!!!! ****, why can't we take anime versions of stuff as supplementary for feats— like we do for Pokémon! I mean, obvious outliers is obvious when we have shit like Large Star Level Frieza Saga in dragon ball, but the Buu Saga doesn't seem too outliery. Off topic— point is, glad we have some staff support on that position.
 
Also, I love how you deliberately ignore my complete argument of SPSM not being massively > Base Naruto. You're literally taking bits and pieces and deliberately misleading readers on my argument.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
I'm getting double negative vibes from that comment. Do you mean it is secondary canon or isn't secondary canon.
Click to expand...
That it might be secondary canon, due to Kodachi's interview.

I massively agree with, like, 99% of what IMade said.
 
Going by consistent showings probably. If he was 5-B he wouldn't have struggled to the degree that he did.
 
Problem is, this implies Kinshiki is stronger than Momoshiki by a massive amount physically— because Sasuke consistently fights against Fused Momoshiki and SOSP Naruto... The scan kep sights, again, is misleading. Sasuke needs the Susano'o to fight Avatar Naruto. Not fighting SOSP Naruto without the Avatar— and no they're not equivalent in power.
 
WHy does people keep ignoring that Fused Momo fought SOSP/RinneSharigan which is 5B but not only that Base Naruto/Sasuke was able to stay in the fight and not be one shotted + Base Sasuke was got hit by black rods and was still alive + Naruto put all his chakra into Borutos Rasengan and it was able to one shot Fused Momo so why is this "7A is consistent" crap still going?
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Going by consistent showings probably. If he was 5-B he wouldn't have struggled to the degree that he did.
Click to expand...
The Naruto doesn't have an issue when it comes to Strength and Durability. It's speed. He can react to them, but overall, he's slower.

His Chakra mode makes up for that speed advantage. Again, Base Naruto scales to Sasuke, it's just as has always been the case, Base Sasuke is faster than Base Naruto, which us why Naruto gets overwhelmed.
 
Amexim said:
Problem is, this implies Kinshiki is stronger than Momoshiki by a massive amount physically— because Sasuke consistently fights against Fused Momoshiki and SOSP Naruto...
Click to expand...
Sasuke only hits Fused Momoshiki once, destroys a few of his Jutsu and takes a kick from him.

Your mistake here is thinking Fused Momoshiki is 5-B in striking strength, he has no feat to justify that. His only 5-B feats as I literally went over in detail above was his Lava Golem was stronger than Kurama and that his physical durability was 5-B from taking a hit from Sage of Six Paths Naruto.

The scan kep sights, again, is misleading. Sasuke needs the Susano'o to fight Avatar Naruto. Not fighting SOSP Naruto without the Avatar— and no they're not equivalent in power.
Easy rebuttal. Sasuke was fodder to Kaguya even when he was using Perfect Susano'o. Naruto without a Kurama manifestation overpowered her, outsped her, ripped her arm off and injured her a couple times.

Sasuke needs Perfect Susano'o to fight just a cloaked Sage of Six Paths Naruto and even then... he'd lose severely by feats.
 
ƒñªÔÇìÔÖ鴩ŃñªÔÇìÔÖ鴩ŃñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å Partially 5B Momoshiki???

Sasuke's sword still has 5B feats like Kep had pointed out.
 
We already went over how the Anime is supplemental— and you tried to use it for your arguments too. In the anime, we have Momoshiki being able to block attacks from Naruto in SOSP, and being able to pose a threat to Naruto even in that form would make him 5-B as well. If not, it's more likely Naruto wouldn't bother dodging his strikes— and you love using scenes where a character dodges something to suggest they're threatened by it, right?

Sasuke wasn't fodder to Kaguya. What is your evidence for saying that? Wild.

And, again, if Momoshiki and Kinshki were 7-A, they would also be MHS— and it seems like with that Gaara "reacting to the blitz" shit, you also think even Fused Momoshiki is MHS, huh? Doesn't match the fact that Sasuke, who is unquestionably Relativistic, has been reacted to by Kinshiki and Base Momo. By your estimations, Sasuke should have stomped Kinshiki, no difficulty. If what you're saying is true, what kind of term does that fall under? PIS? WIS? Oh, that's right— you conviently manipulate the terms and definitions that you define on your own— terms that the community has a broad definition for, but not an explicit, specific one that is as rigidly followed as you do- the fact that we're calling this an outlier while you say it isn't isn't proof that we don't know what an outlier is.

It's proof that "outlier" in the context of powerscaling isn't exactly the same as the dictionary definition in a rigid and exclusive manner— just as PIS and WIS are thrown around at times to illustrate that there's a problem with the scaling due to inconsistencies with some things— and that those things are so important that they can't be overlooked.

The fact that you're bending definitions around to make your argument "irrefutable" is frustrating and aggravating, because no one is buying that. What you are doing is spinning a badly written fight into a legitimate one by citing multiple "anti-feats" in the same context as if they weren't in the same situation to begin with. Keep in mind that the entire situation is questionable from the perspective of people who don't initially agree with your premise— so you're not convincing anyone. I might as well use EVERY frame from the anime as proof, since we're gonna cite individual scenes from the same fight, even though the whole source is questionable.
 
BlackeJan said:
Agreed: Astral, Nedge1000, M3x, Shadow, Mindovin (5)

Neutral: AppleLord, Pachi2, The Causality (3)

Disagreed: Kep and IMade (2)
Click to expand...
Ok is there anyone else that's an Knowledgeable Member for Naruto that can give their opinion on here cause imma be honest this thread has been alive what for like a good week? Most of the Knowledgeable Members and I'm sorry but NO ONE is buying the "7A is consistent" crap here. Since that's done and everything then we should honestly proceed with the tallies and reach a compromise if we would need to or just fully go with the 5B Base Naruto

I'm sorry but let's be honest we been talking in circles for a while now a long time and I think it's time we just end this
 
In order to "prove" 7-A is consistent, you would need multiple instances from DIFFERENT fights— rather than just picking parts of an entire fight that's questionable for several reasons.
 
Like, Shin might as well be Relativistic, because it's "consistent" even though he shouldn't be at all.
 
And no, I'm not saying consistency doesn't mean anything. I'm saying that "consistency without a rational reason within the verse" doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how many times Spider-Man fights Thor, he isn't Herald/Skyfather Level.
 
Anyways since we gotten more support then those disagreeing can we start or wait until the neutrals decide to change their mind?
 
Ok is there anyone else that's an Knowledgeable Member for Naruto that can give their opinion on here cause imma be honest this thread has been alive what for like a good week? Most of the Knowledgeable Members and I'm sorry but NO ONE is buying the "7A is consistent" crap here. Since that's done and everything then we should honestly proceed with the tallies and reach a compromise if we would need to or just fully go with the 5B Base Naruto

I'm sorry but let's be honest we been talking in circles for a while now a long time and I think it's time we just end this

Kep agrees with the Boruto anime being Supporting.
 
Look, the Chakra Modes are honestly irrelevant.

  • Base Sasuke has 5-B physically feats in the manga (Debunked Kep and IMade's arguments here already, look back) as well as 5-B chakra feats outside of PS.
  • Base Naruto is shown physically comparable to Sasuke in everything but Speed
  • Base Sasuke is shown across all mediums (Most notably, Anime and Movie) being physically comparable to SPSM Naruto in their fight with Momoshiki (And Kep accepts the Anime Portrayal of characters as Supporting Canon and I should note, less we forget, the movie came directly from Kishimoto himself w/ help from Kodachi. The movie's portrayal of the characters shouldn't be any less than the Anime's)
  • Base Naruto amplified Boruto's Rasengan enough to kill Momoshiki
The feats and portrayal speaks for itself. Base Naruto is 5-B.
 
Amexim said:
We already went over how the Anime is supplemental— and you tried to use it for your arguments too.
Click to expand...
I used an anime event that occurred in the manga to describe what was happening. I didn't ever use anime original content that isn't from the canon manga.

In the anime, we have Momoshiki being able to block attacks from Naruto in SOSP, and being able to pose a threat to Naruto even in that form would make him 5-B as well.
For anime Momoshiki, sure, but not manga Momoshiki.

If not, it's more likely Naruto wouldn't bother dodging his strikes— and you love using scenes where a character dodges something to suggest they're threatened by it, right?
Naruto upon using the Sage of Six Paths cloak never dodges Fused Momoshiki's strikes to suggest he would be threatened by Fused Momo's physical strikes.

Sasuke wasn't fodder to Kaguya. What is your evidence for saying that? Wild.
I can tell you didn't read my comment then, you should go do that since you seem lost:

Sasuke:

Naruto:

Not even close, Sasuke was pathetic against Kaguya and Naruto was the only one who tagged her, injured her and was keeping up with her speed wise. As we can see in both fights, Sasuke is using Rinne-Sharingan and Perfect Susano'o while Naruto is literally only using Sage of Six Paths Mode (no Kurama summoned once)... Yet Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is casually destroyed by Kaguya in 1-4 hits while Naruto can trade fist with her and even overpower her, rip her arm off and injure her notably.

And, again, if Momoshiki and Kinshki were 7-A, they would also be MHS— and it seems like with that Gaara "reacting to the blitz" shit, you also think even Fused Momoshiki is MHS, huh?
Maybe if you read my previous comment you'd know (hint, Sage of Six Paths Naruto for sure was faster than him given he caught Fused Momo's strike mid swing and countered him).

Doesn't match the fact that Sasuke, who is unquestionably Relativistic, has been reacted to by Kinshiki and Base Momo. By your estimations, Sasuke should have stomped Kinshiki, no difficulty.
Sasuke could have simply just used Susano'o and yeah he would have stomped. Kinshiki has no feats comparable given that I listed all of Kinshiki's feats above.

If what you're saying is true, what kind of term does that fall under? PIS? WIS? Oh, that's right— you conviently manipulate the terms and definitions that you define on your own— terms that the community has a broad definition for, but not an explicit, specific one that is as rigidly followed as you do- the fact that we're calling this an outlier while you say it isn't isn't proof that we don't know what an outlier is.
I don't manipulate the terms and definitions, I simply copy / paste them. Apparently you just don't like realizing that that the application of such terms in this instance would not be viable.

It's proof that "outlier" in the context of powerscaling isn't exactly the same as the dictionary definition in a rigid and exclusive manner— just as PIS and WIS are thrown around at times to illustrate that there's a problem with the scaling due to inconsistencies with some things— and that those things are so important that they can't be overlooked.
No, outlier is the same definition through and through, the battleboard definition of outlier is the same as the real definition.

An outlier is a thing or group that is entirely different from a larger group. 5-B feats for Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki would be outliers as I explained above.

The fact that you're bending definitions around to make your argument "irrefutable" is frustrating and aggravating, because no one is buying that. What you are doing is spinning a badly written fight into a legitimate one by citing multiple "anti-feats" in the same context as if they weren't in the same situation to begin with. Keep in mind that the entire situation is questionable from the perspective of people who don't initially agree with your premise— so you're not convincing anyone. I might as well use EVERY frame from the anime as proof, since we're gonna cite individual scenes from the same fight, even though the whole source is questionable.
I got 7 Kudos in my comment, several agreements in the previous thread and this thread.

It's so blatantly consistent how their 7-A feats line up with the rarity of 5-B for the Base feats making the 5-B outliers (and only Kinshiki has 5-B feats in Base for durability while Base Momoshiki has none).

Here is my comment so you can read it over again and catch up, I literally went over and explained things you just complained about here in detail with scans.
 
Why is it pointless? As of right now we have more people agreeing then disagreeing.

@IMade

Doesn't even matter that people gave ya kudos. If they Were Knowledgeable Memebers then we could had counted their votes or if they decided to say something but no could be people who who disagree with this just cause they don't want a 5B Naruto. The mere fact that u adress a "7A is consistent" when everyone here disagrees with u completely already tells ya enough. How do u say that base Naruto is basically 7A when is younger self took on a 6B explosion with no damage???
 
1. Kaguya has the byakugan, so she can destroy Chakra constructs. That's a byakugan Power.

2. Are you trying to suggest that Sasuke is slower than Kaguya, despite Chidoring SOSP Cloak Naruto?

3. So, you acknowledge SPEED as an important factor- enough to make someone fodder... And yet you don't acknowledge how the speed difference suggested by your scaling would make Kaguya blitz Momo and Kin like they were nothing? They wouldn't be threats to Kaguya. You can be 3-A in Jutsu AP all you want. 7-A durability and if you're blitzable, you're not scary. And Momoshiki and Kinshiki have no hax that Kaguya would be scared of, so if you were in charge, Momo and Kinshiki wouldn't be listed as threats to Kaguya... Despite Kaguya herself being terrified of them.

If you think Kinshiki and Momo are 7-A and MHS, because Gaara "reacted to a blitz", do you. Just know that it makes no sense.

Other people agreeing with you who didn't have the balls to say anything doesn't change that others do not agree with your assessments of the situations. In what universe is WIS restricted to multiple writers as an intuitive definition? To most people, WIS is for writers who **** up the plot, 1 or 100, number doesn't matter. Even then, it doesn't change writers not knowing how strong their characters are being an explanation for off scaling. Plus, look at how many people disagree with you. If the amount of people determines who's right here, who's words are valid, then you should just give up.

By the way, you should read MY last comment. This basically explains what i'm saying. We don't scale bullshit.
 
You, and 7 people. Why didn't you have the balls to say something earlier? Balls being a figure of speech, you don't have to have them to talk.
 
Whoa that got really aggressive fast man. I get disagreeing with him and those who agreed/liked Imade's comment but there's no reason to use personal attacks.
 
Well again really the only way this could be settled is by the amount of Knowledgeable Memebrs agreeing and disagreeing and im sorry but i laughed when people really think the God Tiers are 7A when a younger Base Naruto tanked a 6B explosion + a Fused Momo fought both SOSP/RinneSharigan who's 5B yet hes being labeled as 7A. How about the people that honestly think they are 7A say something about that cause in all honesty, those that agreed to @IMade comment and not say anything are basically the people who just dont want a 5B Base Naruto in general.

Anways more memebers agree on the 5B Base Naruto and this has been going on for too long so can we apply now or the members that are neutral wanna change their minds and pick a side?
 
Imade bring really good points

I dont think people need to be Knowledgeable members when naruto have too many anti feats and everyone can see this feats
 
7A feats are casual. You cannot use casual showings as proof of a characters cap when they have shown better feats, that's utter nonsense.

Momoshiki denonstrated Casual 7-A Striking and 5-B Striking plus I have already proven Striking scales from Durability, so IMades arguments involving the Kage is nothing more but a reach that has been debunked already.
 
TheFinalOrder said:
7A feats are casual. You cannot use casual showings as oroof of a characters csp, that's utter nonsense.
Click to expand...
Correction my good friend....they are EXTREMELY casual. Anyways yes @Sins the point of us non members is to try and persuade the Knowledgeable Members to agree or disagree
 
Put him on 6-C? dunno how you handle casual showing

But Base Momoshiki has no feats who put him into 5-B as well
 
I agree with axiem

The fact is, Kodachi literally is the screen director the anime which includes Momoshiki arc ƒÿæ. Sasuke was portrayed by Koadachi as physically strong enough to fight Momoshiki and Kinshiki
 
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