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Naruto Upgrades Part 2: 5-B Base Naruto and Sasuke

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I agree with this. There is only one thing or another that I disagree with but it would not change the level very much and the discussion is not worth it
 
It's a split 50/50 agreement and disagreement if you take into account the previous thread. However, the majority of staff except for one have disagreed as well. I can get back to this tomorrow to reiterate key points and scans that keep getting ignored, can't speak for Kep since I don't know his schedule.
 
@IMade

Where have ya been at? even in the previous thread, u and Kep had disagreed on this (Kep disagreed to a certain extent) and WE ALL disagree on the 7A thing so no even when Kep himself disagreed on that. I honestly don't know where u got most of the staff disagreed when it was only u and a couple other people and most of them had had agree to this. Also u might wanna see the Knowledgeable Members cause they agree to this + I've contacted a few more (this thread wasn't going anywhere) and I think like one or 2 messages back saying they agreed to this.
 
Yeah the staff agreeed and but it wasn't many because too many people aren't knowledgeable staff members that showed up.
 
I agree with 5-B Base Naruto. I don't agree with SPSM doesn't give great amp. Imo, SM gives greater amp with higher and/or denser chakra reserves.
 
Just also clicked to me but Naruto also has Asuras chakra (gotten it from Hogaromo) + he has each pieces of Tailed Beast chakra
 
Agreed: Astral, Nedge1000, M3x, Shadow, Mindovin (5)

Neutral: AppleLord & Pachi2 (2)

Disagreed: Kep and IMade (2)
 
Mindovin said:
I agree with 5-B Base Naruto. I don't agree with SPSM doesn't give great amp. Imo, SM gives greater amp with higher and/or denser chakra reserves.
Click to expand...
This
 
base sasuke has low 5=B+ Calc = low 5=B+ AP and many 5-B feats for hurting 5-B limbo

cutting momo's 5-B jutsu , cutting 5-B madara in half & tanking punch from 5-B limbo

agreement = almost all agree and kep agrees that sasuke with chidori and sword is 5-B

disagreement - only IMade disagree and kep disagrees with only 5-B sasuke in physically
 
Agreed: Astral, Nedge1000, M3x, Shadow, Mindovin (5)

Neutral: AppleLord, Pachi2, The Causality (3)

Disagreed: Kep and IMade (2)
 
Amexim said:
Agree, btw
Click to expand...
Well if I'm right people who aren't Knowledgeable Members agreements/disagreements don't count since we r basically only to try and persuade them into agreeing or disagreeing
 
We weren't supposed to do this via tally but what the heck. Most of the big wikia revisions we had were like this. Tallied.
 
Amexim said:
I've argued against IMADE almost as much as you have. If i'm not a viable vote, who is?
Click to expand...
It's not that my friend. I've seen ya make plenty of arguments but we aren't in the Knowledgeable Members list so really our votes wouldn't count. Sorry if I came as rude that was never my attention but yeah the people that I've rallied up r the people that r in the list as Knowledgeable Members
 
BlackeJan said:
Amexim said:
Agree, btw
Click to expand...
Well if I'm right people who aren't Knowledgeable Members agreements/disagreements don't count since we r basically only to try and persuade them into agreeing or disagreeing
Click to expand...
Not quite, @BlackeJan. It is true if you are not Knowledgeable Members or Supporters.
 
This whole prompt is a large circular scaling trying to justify a 5-B rating for Base (Teenage War Arc Post-Revival) Naruto in AP, Striking Strength and Durability as well as Base Sasuke in AP/Striking Strength and Durability for his Adult profile: Note; Sasuke is currently not listed as 5-B physically for his Teenage Profile, he is listed as 5-B through Perfect Susano'o

What is being used to justify a Base Naruto being 5-B is Sasuke and Momoshiki/Kinshiki, a few scenes between them is being used to try to justify this scaling.

What is being used to justify Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke being 5-B physically is an interaction with Kaguya, Madara's Limbo Clones and interacting with Momoshiki/Kinshiki.

What is being used to justify Momoshiki and Kinshiki being 5-B are interacting with a now claimed 5-B Base Adult Naruto and Base Adult Sasuke (circular scaling here). I'll go over each one as to disprove the OP's claim you must disprove the support.

Sasuke is Not Physically 5-B as a Teenager With Rinne-Sharinga
The two scenes trying to justify Sasuke's proposed key are being thrown by Kaguya and interacting with Momoshiki/Kinshiki.

Sasuke Being Thrown by Kaguya Isn't a Feat:
In this scan, we see Sage of Six Paths Naruto and Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke being thrown by Kaguya's hair with both emmitting an audible groan of pain.

This is being used to justify Teenage Rinne-Sharingan Sasuke's durability is equal to Sage of Six Paths Naruto's 5-B Durability. I will retort with Kepekley23's own words as they are more concise than my own:

I'll reiterate Kep's words since he and I basically agree on this:

Yet another brief, one-panel scan that, if taken literally, leads to disastrous scaling. So, we're seeing Sasuke take a direct hit from Kaguya. He is not sent flying any farther than Naruto is, is not roughed up any further by the hit too. He tanked that hit just as well as SPSM Naruto did.

Yet this exact same Sasuke needed his Susano'o in order to match SPSM Naruto evenly,as shown several times in VOTE. The track record is consistent with Base Naruto = Rinnegan Sasuke without Susano'o physically. Yet we are supposed to believe that Rinnegan Sasuke can take hits from Kaguya just as well as SPSM Naruto can.

Sort out that scaling for me now in a manner that won't require headcanons and another batch of 1,000 threads in the matter that wouldn't be necessary if we analyzed each battle in depth instead of picking one single scan and latching into it permanently.

Sasuke Doesn't Tank a Hit From Madara's Limbo Clone:
Straight up, this isn't a durability feat, it's literally not a feat at all. Sasuke doesn't tank any hit nor do any visible damage. It's a misintepretation of feat by the OP.

Sasuke was already in motion to strike as we can see. We know Sasuke is in mid-motion with his Chidori Blade above his head as he's bringing it down, and that in the actual panel of the contact, Sasuke's sword is now actually down.

It's perfect and reasonable implication that the point of contact was with his Chidori Blade. Your stance relies on the entire assumption that we ignore these positionings and assume that Sasuke somehow was hit.

If we were to invoke Occam's Razor, your position would be denied due to the assumptions you must take being higher than the stance of Sasuke making contact through the Blade.

Also, at times like these where we have a form of confusion for feats, the anime is acceptable to use for clarity in how the event played out. The anime portrays the scene exactly how the manga panel's positioning and paneling plays out with Sasuke making contact with his Chidori Blade, not his person taking a hit.

There's no way this is a feat of Sasuke being hit, nothing implies that.

Sasuke With the Kusanagi Blade Isn't 5-B Neither:
Althought not mentioned in the OP, the Kusanagi Blade that Sasuke uses is for some reason being incorrectly labeled as 5-B by those in support of this upgrade since it pierced a 5-B Madara and Adult Sage of Six Paths Naruto. There are several blatant issues with this:

1) The Kusanagi in the War Arc is not the same Kusanagi in Boruto. They are different blades.

2) Sasuke doesn't physically pierce a 5-B Madara with the Kusanagi Blade. Sasuke used Amenotejikara to switch places with his Kusanagi Blade and Madara flew into it.

3) The Kusanagi Blade alone cannot be 5-B unless we now scale everyone that interacted with it to 5-B:

There are a lot more instances, but it's quite clear that the Kusanagi Blade is not 5-B, it would make absolutely no sense if it were, especially that somehow Sasuke had access to 5-B metals to make his blade in the late chapter 200's of Naruto.

Sasuke Isn't 5-B From Base Momoshiki, Base Kinshiki and Fused Momoshiki
Mainly because the scaling doesn't make sense as I'll explain in the next section, but for a quick recap of the OP's scaling:

Base Naruto is 5-B because Sasuke is 5-B. Sasuke is 5-B from Kaguya, Madara, Momoshiki and Kinshiki... but the OP is also claiming that Sasuke is 5-B from interacting with Base Naruto....and what is worse is the OP is claiming that Base Naruto is also 5-B from Fused Momoshiki... and that Fused Momoshiki is 5-B from Sasuke. I'll even copy paste his own words from the OP:

Base Naruto being 5-B Physically: This scales from Sasuke.

Sasuke has 2 5-B feats in the Manga throughout the Kaguya/Madara fights

Later in Boruto, we see Naruto physically keep up with Momoshiki

And Momoshiki is physically strong enough to hurt Base Sasuke with his strikes

It's a literal definition of circular scaling. Character Z iz 5-B because X is 5-B and X is 5-B because Y is 5-B and Y is 5-B because Z is 5-B. This literally goes against our rules.

Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki Aren't 5-B
This is pretty cut and dry, Base Momoshiki and Kinshiki literally have a huge majority of feats being below Tier 5. They have almost no 5-B feats.

Base Momoshiki's Feats Are All Pathetically Below 5-B:

So a completely Base Momoshiki has no actual solid 5-B feats. The only one for contention is kicking Adult Base Naruto; however, Adult Base Naruto being 5-B is what we are currently discussing, it can't be used as evidence for Momoshiki since Momoshiki is supposed to be evidence for Adult Base Naruto, otherwise that's even more circular scaling. So there is no feat for Base Momoshiki being 5-B and there is an overwhelming amount of evidence for Base Momoshiki being Tier 7-A to possibly 6-C.

Base Kinshiki's Feats Are Almost All Pathetically Below 5-B

Base Kinshiki has an overwhelming amount of feats that are Tier 7-A, a severe amount as well. He has only one 5-B feat for AP and Durability while the rest are literally entirely 7-A feats. By definition, the singular 5-B feat would be an outlier, Kinshiki is consistently below that. Note: Kinshiki had a planet splitting statement from a Guidebook, but there are a couple issues with that:

1) The Guidebook is about the Boruto Movie which is not canon. It's a non-canon guidebook.

2) The statement wasn't a data statement, it was a hype statement. Hype statements are the same thing that said Temari has universal destructive power, they aren't actually data.

Fused Momoshiki is Kinda 5-B:
Fused Momoshiki is the only one who actually displays some 5-B feats, but not in all stats.

The only thing that appears 5-B about Fusion Momoshiki is in terms of physical durability (takes a hit from SPSM Naruto) and his Rock Golem creation (overpowered Kurama). He doesn't have anything else going for him about 5-B and everything that occurs after his premature defeat by the Susano'o Clad Kurama is not instances of 5-B since Momoshiki was explicitly severely nerfed to the pointhe couldn't move.

So Fusion Momoshiki would only appear to be solidly 5-B in physical durability and through the Lava Golem. His striking strength is not 5-B when Sage of Six Paths Naruto physically overpowers him easily and Fusion Momoshiki doesn't even kill 7-A characters and 7-A characters can stop his attacks.

Momoshiki and Kinshiki Being This Weak Is Not WIS/PIS/CIS
These are straight up anti-feats and the 5-B feats are straight up outliers. Here is the definition of outlier:

A person or thing differing from all other members of a particular group or set.

Outliers can be a super high-end feat or an extremely low-end feat that is not consistent with the majority of a character's feat. The 5-B feat for Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki are an outlier, they are a singular feat that differs from the rest of their consistent majority feats.

WIS is Writed Induced Stupidity, it's commonly used for comic books where we have multiple authors and some that don't know the character they are writing as much as a previous author, thus that character's showings are bad. It's not applicable to Naruto nor Bourot.

PIS is Plot Induced Stupidity, for when an action, sequence or event must occur for the plot to move forward. Such as Sakura punching Kaguya down, that needed to happen for the plot to advance with Kaguya's defeat. However, PIS is not applicable to Boruto in this entire arc. The plot did not rely on any event except that Momoshiki and Kinshiki are defeated.

CIS is Character Induced Stupidity, for when characters act out of character. Not applicable here at all.

For Some Reason OP is Stating that Sage of Six Paths Naruto is Not an AP Increase:
Per OP's own words:

SPSM: There is a Misconception that SPSM is Massively Stronger than Base Naruto, when that is not the case as the proof shows us. SPSM Naruto is simply a Supernatural State of Mind that Hagoromko gifted Naruto in addition to SPC.

This is completely incorrect and baseless. I will now go back to the feat I said to remember earlier of Base Momoshiki and Base Naruto:

Base Momoshiki easily kicks away Adult Base Naruto.

This feat means Base Momoshiki's AP is around the level of Adult Base Naruto's Durability. For simplicity, let's say Base Momoshiki's AP = Adult Base Naruto's Durability.

OP is currently trying to say that Naruto's AP and Durability is the same in Base and with Sage of Six Paths Mode. What he doesn't realize is he is straight up contradicting himself with this.

Fusion Momoshiki trades blows with Adult Base Naruto, outspeeds this Naruto and overwhelms him in their scuffle. This makes sense since Fusion Momoshiki is stronger than before when he fought Adult Base Naruto at his base... yet immediately after this panel Adult Base Naruto shifts to Sage of Six Paths to immediately overwhelm Fusion Momoshiki. Momoshiki takes an elbow and kick from Sage of Six Paths Naruto that sends him flying while being in visible pain.

If Naruto's AP and Durability is equal in Base and Sage of Six Paths Mode, it absolutely makes no sense for Naruto to have overpowered Fusion Momoshiki with Sage of Six Paths Mode, it is literal proof that Naruto's AP increases. Naruto literally sends Fusion Momoshiki flying with a simple kick and an elbow literally rock's his world. If Naruto's AP was always the same then he would have done the same when he crossed arms with Fusion Momoshiki since he literally overpowers Fusion Momoshiki so easily with Sage of Six Paths.

Naruto and Sasuke's Individual Performances Against Kaguya and Madara Disprove This As Well:

Madara:

Sasuke:

Naruto:

So in the fight with Madara, Naruto without Kurama was outperforming Sasuke with his perfect Susano'o. Not comparable, except in speed perhaps.

Kaguya:

Sasuke:

Naruto:

Not even close, Sasuke was pathetic against Kaguya and Naruto was the only one who tagged her, injured her and was keeping up with her speed wise. As we can see in both fights, Sasuke is using Rinne-Sharingan and Perfect Susano'o while Naruto is literally only using Sage of Six Paths Mode (no Kurama summoned once)... Yet Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is casually destroyed by Kaguya in 1-4 hits while Naruto can trade fist with her and even overpower her, rip her arm off and injure her notably.


By feats, Naruto with Sage of Six Paths could also 1-4 shot Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o and Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is explicitly more durable than himself, it's literally armor over his person.

OP is trying to say Base Naruto is equal in AP and Durability to his Sage of Six Paths Mode though and that Sasuke scales to Sage of Six Paths Mode... when Sage of Six Paths Mode literally outperformed Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o in their fight against Kaguya.

This is honestly ignorance and fallacious extrapolation to upgrade a character, it makes literally no sense.

Conclusion
This whole thread is an absolute mess of incorrect circular scaling, misinterpretation of feats and uninformed knowledge of modes.


Base Naruto is not 5-B.

Sasuke is not physically 5-B.

Base Momoshiki and Base Kinshiki aren't 5-B.

Fusion Momoshiki is not 5-B in all stats.
 
That one instance where Madara gets carved by the Kusanagi Blade by himself is a blatant "writers can't do math" scenario. Madara's bladed durability was portrayed as extremely shitty there. It's more of a huge anti-feat for him, than a feat for Sasuke.
 
I'm guessing yur forgetting that they were considered more of a threat then Kaguya....and that fact that u said "Fused Momo is KINDA 5B" honestly made me a bit disappointed like if u think that SOSP Naruto is 5B then why would Fused Momo be "kinda" 5B when he took on two 5Bs? I'm guessing yur also forgetting that everything that was written and shown during that arc was bad writing in general especially 5Bs who said that they were more dangerous then Kaguya herself.

Also anime is basically supporting canon so that means we can look at that and see for ourselves that Base Naruto/Sasuke scale to 5B. If Base Sasuke is able to take hits from black rods from Fused Momo then that already says 5B + again I wanna say that SOSP Naruto/RinneSharigan Sasuke was lol beating Fused Momo with half their strength. Fused Momo is 5B from taking on SOSP/RinneSharigan and Base Naruto/Sasuke were able to stay in it when fighting cause unlike the Kages....THEY DIDNT GET ONE SHOTTED
 
Being a greater threat means nothing about durability, AP or speed. You should know this after being on the wiki for a while.

I can be a greater threat than Conor McGregor if I knew how to make bombs, but he's stronger, faster and more durable than me.

Momoshiki and Kinshiki were greater threat than Kaguya due to Chakra Pill being massive amps and things they were collecting and had stocks of.

That one statement doesn't mean anything too, even if it was about their stats it'd be an outlier and an obvious hyperbole. Momoshiki and Kinshiki were pathetic compared to Kaguya. Kaguya would not struggle with Kage characters.


The anime's events aren't canon. That's not how canon works, the manga is the main source with the anime being an adaption that has a few canon arcs due to involvement by Kishimoto. Kishimoto is the WoG, not Kodachi.

If you're having trouble catching up, I would advise you read over my comment again, I already addressed Fused Momoshiki's states being only partially 5-B and not all 5-B. If you have yet to provide any counter evidence nor a solid rebuttal.
 
I'm getting double negative vibes from that comment. Do you mean it is secondary canon or isn't secondary canon.
 
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