Ghostimuscrime
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Well Arc did counter this in his little blog about recreating the lands that were destroyed and reshaped, I think that makes more sense, we cant just say "oh kishimoto lied"
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Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread
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Stating he contradicts himself isn’t the same as saying he’s lying. And I’ve seen that argument too. I personally believe it’s headcanon. How can we say he used it to “recreate the lands” that were destroyed when we don’t even know the scale of the fight? Ntm based on Kaguya’s own views of the earth (Her nursery), it can be argued with even greater certainty that she likely held back due to not wanting to drastically damage the earth.
So there is no justifiable way to even scale the scale of the fight, and even if we compared it to “everything” that happened to Ninja Continent:
- Various TBB’s from Biju - Juubi
- TPC
- Madara’s CT + Resulting Debris
So how can one seriously argue on the side of “recreating the damage lands” and that not be headcanon?
MinatoSparkle
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Pretty sure she was mindless at the time, and the battle literally lasted for months so that would def drastically affect the lands
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The narrative we follow right now is that they fought the Juubi, not Kaguya's real form.Stating he contradicts himself isn’t the same as saying he’s lying. And I’ve seen that argument too. I personally believe it’s headcanon. How can we say he used it to “recreate the lands” that were destroyed when we don’t even know the scale of the fight? Ntm based on Kaguya’s own views of the earth (Her nursery), it can be argued with even greater certainty that she likely held back due to not wanting to drastically damage the earth.
So there is no justifiable way to even scale the scale of the fight, and even if we compared it to “everything” that happened to Ninja Continent:
You still don’t even get to a point where continent/individual countries are seriously impacted. One small country was wiped off the map…
- Various TBB’s from Biju - Juubi
- TPC
- Madara’s CT + Resulting Debris
So how can one seriously argue on the side of “recreating the damage lands” and that not be headcanon?
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iirc, the battle didn’t last for months, that was anime only, and Kaguya wasn’t mindless either. She was very much cognizant of what was going on and control her actions, having been able to create BZ before being sealed away, remembering her fight in detail, etc.
Kaguya wasn’t mindless Juubito and again, being able to create BZ in the midst of the battle is proof of Autonomy over her actions in that form.
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Kaguya was in control of the Juubi form. Nothing states otherwise that she wasn’t.
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Black Zetsu was created after the ten tails were sealed. The only things Juubi can use are mostly Biju bombs and destructive attacks. Hagoromo mentioned that the ten tails was on a rampage that does not sound intelligent to me at all. As you mentioned Kaguya would not want to destroy the earth, meaning if she was in control she would have done the exact same thing she did against Team 7 switching the battlefields to one of her dimensions .
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I just double checked Chapter 681 and I am correct. BZ states it was Kaguya’s will that controlled Juubi and he directly attributes his birth to her directly, not Juubi in general.
This proves:
This proves:
- She was definitely in control.
- Had autonomy over her actions while in this state.
Ghostimuscrime
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what do you think erasing the world means then
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It literally says before the seal took effect.
Arsenal issue, not a control issue.
BZ is more informed than Hagoromo. Perhaps I can concede she was not “100%” fully in control, but it is her own will that dictates the juubi’s actions and BZ creation is proof of some level of autonomy over the actions by her directly. That’s inarguable.
Depends. S/T is a core arsenal of Otsutsuki. Can’t speak to what Hags & Ham had, arsenal wise, at the time, but again, it’s either she didn’t have access to S/T Ninjutsu or didn’t have 100% control, but you still have to concede her will prioritizes “the nursery” over Chakra absorption so it could still be argued she likely would’ve had the ten-tails holding back.
We still have no way to ascertain the scale of the fight to justify an argument of, “Sword of Nunoboku” recreated the lands to support the destroying argument.
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I honestly can’t say. Obito prefaced the entire statement with, “Hagoromo created this world with this blade”, etc.
Clearly that is not the case. Therefore, the second half is unusable in my eyes because he’s attempting to destroy what Hagoromo created.
The “only” world Hagoromo is credited 100% with Creating is idea of a Ninshu based Society, which is an ideology over chakra usage, which Naruto represented implied by Madara (Ref. Chapter 665).
Otherwise, I couldn’t tell you, nor would know how Nunoboku fits into that…
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IMO, the blade being DNA-shaped is meant to connect to this as he could've altered people to allow them to make use of their chakra. People always had innate physical + mental energies, but only Hagoromo and Hamura initially were born with the ability to knead chakra until Hagromomo spread the power out to more people.
But unfortunately we never actually see him use it in the series at any point so it's unconfirmed.
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Nunoboku would erase Naruto and Sasuke (the representatives of this current world and the main hurdle in his path at the time) > Obito would then enact his Eye of the Moon plan by activating the Infinite Tsukuyomi > This would, in essence, "erase" the current world that the SO6P ushered in. The world as they knew it would cease to exist, which is verbiage that Obito used even before becoming the Juubi's Jinchuriki and when he was explicitly talking about IT.
I think that's a valid alternative way to look at it.
Ghostimuscrime
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I don't think it arguments saying it cant be 5B 6A 6B etc are wrong but I think it could be higher, if Hagoromo truly crafted a physical weapon that would neccessitate it has some level of qualitative superiority over his own physical stats, if it did not there would be no point in constructing a weapon and obito would not believe it has the power to wipe things out
BlastX
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I swear I had many thoughts about it but currently drawing blank.
I guess it would be for Demon Fox Cloak Naruto to actually use rasengans more instead of fighting like a wild animal, and for Naruto to use Nine Tails rasengans more (also whenever he uses Kurama Enhanced Rasengans in any mode they're purple like naime vermilion Rasengan or red like the one from the stone of gelel or the Tornado Rasengan...in fact have him use those rasengans)
Also the Giant Rasengan is used more and is portrayed as being really strong like the videogames make it out to be.
Also Kurama got his fire abilities from anime filler.
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I also wanted to make an argument about it but my main argument were the fact that they couldn't be any human left on hearth if the surface was actually wiped and also the fact that even if it really recreated thesurface, we still don't have any time frame, plus, it's a creation feat and not a destruction feat,I honestly can’t say. Obito prefaced the entire statement with, “Hagoromo created this world with this blade”, etc.
Clearly that is not the case. Therefore, the second half is unusable in my eyes because he’s attempting to destroy what Hagoromo created.
The “only” world Hagoromo is credited 100% with Creating is idea of a Ninshu based Society, which is an ideology over chakra usage, which Naruto represented implied by Madara (Ref. Chapter 665).
Otherwise, I couldn’t tell you, nor would know how Nunoboku fits into that…
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But that’s now a scaling argument, which imo is better.
MinatoSparkle
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Damn, well that arc is arguably canon but it does have numerous contradictions so fair enough
Even if she wasn't actually mindless, she seemed like just the regular Ten Tails to Hagoromo and Hamura so she probably fought like him, shooting Bijuudamas everywhere (which is consistent with the lore Kurama gave him initially).
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KoK praising something from boruto?
The moon is gonna crash into the earth by tommorow night
MinatoSparkle
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Now that I think about it, this seems like it could yield some pretty good calcs
Maybe not relevant ones since the Complete Juubi was tier 5 anyways, but from an eyeball some of those explosions seems like they could be 6-A to High 6-A
Maybe not relevant ones since the Complete Juubi was tier 5 anyways, but from an eyeball some of those explosions seems like they could be 6-A to High 6-A
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They were calced in the past. They yield nothing crazy from what I remember, especially considering where Prime Juubi/Kaguya actually scale. Still, I'd love to see an official calc for them on the verse page at some point.Now that I think about it, this seems like it could yield some pretty good calcs
MinatoSparkle
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I've swear I've said Isshiki > Madara here before.
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Yeaaaa....
In fairness, this is a pretty old calc, so maybe if it gets a more updated recalc it yields something higher, but I really don't see it being anything useful, even if WA Juubi were to scale to it (which he wouldn't). I don't see it going past 6-B-ish.
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Leave it to KoK to turn a good take into a shit one with such skill and grace.
MinatoSparkle
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Maybe Juubidara since he has all of Bijuus 1-8 and half of Kurama (tho it would be arbitrary at that point)?
I thought it'd be higher given the calc of Konoha vaporization being High 6-B+
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Interesting that might workI thought it'd be higher given the calc of Konoha vaporization being High 6-B+
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Yo guys, what's your opinion on this Kaguya's ETSO being universal argument that someone made?
- "" The argument is mix of Amatersau's (a Uni Naruto scaler on TikTok) and Seth's recent Saitama vs Naruto vid (using the definition of the word sekai as supporting evidence for this uni position) (edited)
- So, the argument sorta goes something like this:When Kaguya spawned from Madara basically imploding on himself due to the sheer chakra piling into him. She used her ability called the Amenominaka to switch the main Naruto dimension with the lava dimension. Later on in the fight Black Zetsu comments that when you transform the space of the world you expend a significant amount of chakra and the word he used to describe world was sekai, which can have 3 different definitions depending on the context.So why is switching or swapping the main Naruto dimension so significant? Well that's because the main Naruto dimension is basically a universe. Why is it a universe? Well there's tidbits of information that show it is based on our own original universe like toneri commenting on the Sagittarius constellation or Saturn's rings in the novels and just the billions of stars in the night sky. From this we can extrapolate a universe for the Main Naruto dimension. So since Kaguya's Amenominaka is her ability to move/switch dimensions with other dimensions, it would qualify for a universe lvl for being able to significantly affect any area of universe like moving it. What Black Zetsu says is important because he states that transforming the space of the world expends a significant amount of chakra so what that would mean is that her dimensions are either comparable in size to the main Naruto universe or bigger than it. And this universal interpretation is further supported due to sekai having really only 3 different interpretations which is either society, planet, or universe. We it can't be a society because Kaguya's dimensions don't house societies, it can't be planet because her dimensions are more than just planets as we see stars and moons in the background, so the interpretation of the sekai would be universe or something to that equivalent for Kaguya's dimensions.That's the argument for Kaguya's dimensions being universal in size for me. ""
- also saying "BM Naruto should undoubtedly scale above her ETSO due to the Majestic Attire Sussano Naruto & Sasuke use against Momoshiki being stated to be the strongest offensive and defensive ninjutsu and BM Naruto is superior to that. BM Naruto >Majestic Attire (Naruto & Sasuke) > ETSO"
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A bit arbitrary probably, but maybe you argue some scaling chain via Hagoromo if you really wanted to.
Like, idk..... FP Juubi ~/>~ Hagoromo >~ Juubidara or something along those lines. I'm not the biggest fan of the Hagoromo/Madara stuff personally, but it's definitely a valid scaling avenue.
Hey, I mean, you never know. Maybe if Arc recalcs it, it yields something bonkers. Maybe ask him when he has some time.I thought it'd be higher given the calc of Konoha vaporization being High 6-B+
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looks good lets get it added to the profiles
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Everything you said here is valid but getting it passed on the wiki is where the real issue lies.
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Yes her dimensions are at least comparable in size to the main universe and switching them each takes a lot of chakra. They have also been confirmed to be parallel dimensions in the novel and the Boruto anime. So yes they are right.
MinatoSparkle
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Yeah I thought it's valid except the last part where he says ""BM Naruto should undoubtedly scale above her ETSO due to the Majestic Attire Sussano Naruto & Sasuke use against Momoshiki being stated to be the strongest offensive and defensive ninjutsu and BM Naruto is superior to that. BM Naruto >Majestic Attire (Naruto & Sasuke) > ETSO""
I think Kaguya doesn't scale to her ETSO at all physically and Naruto and Sasuke's BM and Susanoo just can't be that much higher than their phyisicals, Planet level to Universal. Ishhiki wouldn't be able to even scratch Susanoo if that was the case. May be that statement was about the current world, not counting Kaguya.
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The feat would be lower given the update crater depth formula.
Ghostimuscrime
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Who let Toneri make a vsbw account
MinatoSparkle
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Ghostimuscrime
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I hold a contrary belief. I think it is perfectly reasonable for adult Naruto and Sasuke to scale far beyond the current planetary-level feats we have. That said, even if they were multi-galaxy level, the gap between that and universal scale is still immense.
The power scaling hierarchy follows this order:
Baryon Mode Naruto >~ Isshiki > Code > Jigen > MAS > Golem Momo > Fused Momoshiki >~ Full power Adult Naruto > Base Momoshiki >~ Kaguya > Ten Tails Hagoromo> Ten-Tails ~ Byakugan Hagoromo + Hamura, possibly > Old Hagoromo.
Old Hagoromo is the one who performed the feat we currently have. While it is unclear just how powerful Ten-Tails Hagoromo would be, he should be significantly stronger than his older self without the Ten-Tails, as well as his younger self who fought the Juubi without it and still weaker than Base Kaguya. Isshiki is far far greater than MAS and it is not even close
