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Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling II

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@Damage

The explanation on the page may be different, but he is clearly above Guy in this state.

I disagree with that. They have feats enough to be solidly Sub-Rel, especially Itachi.

Itachi literally went after Bee and he just reacted, because Itachi warned him.
Nagato was literally weakened and managed to reach Bee's back, who had to activate V2 to counterattack.
Not when he is comparable and able to react easily to Base Bee and etc.
 
> Itachi literally went after Bee and he just reacted, because Itachi warned him.

Yes, but I don't think really proves that Bee would be incapable of reacting even if Itachi didn't warn him. And seeing as this is base Bee, that would still just be an "At least MHS+" feat.

> Nagato was literally weakened and managed to reach Bee's back, who had to activate V2 to counterattack.

Killer B activating V2 to use a Lariat against him isn't the same thing as Nagato being too fast for Killer B to attack.
 
  • What? Nothing indicates this and this is literally ignoring that it was a blitz.
    Occam's razor.
And since that proves that he is way above Base Bee at speed, blitzing him several feet and kept up with Naruto KCM.

  • He activated just after Nagato appeared on his back from nowhere.
    It doesn't even make sense for you to claim it was to use for AP.
I understand the need to have someone who is "Devil's Advocate" as you say, but ignoring the manga with your explanations to justify your arguments, sounds like a fallacy.
 
@MostPowerfull; I think we're thinking of a different definitions of "blitz". I wouldn't consider it a blitz to get behind someone who isn't focused on you at that moment.

I would say that based on their performance from the rest of their fight that Itachi is more comparable to Killer B's speed instead of being "way above" him.

He only "kept up" with KCM Naruto very briefly, and he could do that even if his combat speed was at least MHS+.

> It doesn't even make sense for you to claim it was potentially destructive.

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. We know his V2 state is more powerful than his base state; he says to Nagato that's going to "school him" as he transforms and hit him with a Lariat, a technique that requires a large amount of chakra concentrated into his arm.

I don't see how the only conclusion you could get from this is "Nagato is way too fast for base Killer B, so Killer B needed to be faster to keep up with Nagato".
 
Tbh Itachi was able to keep up with a serious Naruto. We can scale him to Naruto. I don't even understand how we aren't trying to. Naruto has no choice but to be serious because of the fact that Itachi was being controlled by Kabuto at the time he attacked him and went H2H
 
@AstralKing7; where is the indication that Naruto is fighting him seriously?

If Naruto is fast enough that he could easily keep up with Itachi (which he seemed to do in their fight) then I don't see why would assume Naruto was fighting at max speed against him.

There isn't a huge gap between "At least MHS+" and "Sub Rel".
 
@Damage

Naruto KCM and Bee were literally ahead of Nagato and Itachi.
It was impossible for Bee not to be with them in their visions.

Ignoring, of course, that Itachi was able to blitz Bee from a great distance and keep up with Naruto KCM.

This literally ignores the definition of "kept up". He had no difficulties, he kpet up, which indicates that he is obviously equal or very close to Naruto KCM, in speed.

---

Because that's what the manga shows us.
The conclusion is drawn, when literally Bee needed to use an obviously superior transformation, to contain Nagato, who appeared out of nowhere on his back, in a weakened form, And it is obvious, when even with such a superior form, Nagato was still able to react easily. It needed more speed, that is the logical and obvious conclusion.
 
> Ignoring, of course, that Itachi was able to blitz Bee from a great distance and keep up with Naruto KCM.

I think that's ignoring some of the context of what happened at that moment.

Nagato had just summoned a pair of huge creatures in an explosion of smoke around them. Then after that Itachi appeared behind Killer B.

Seems pretty likely to me that Killer B lost sight of Itachi as the creatures were summoned. So Itachi appearing behind Killer B's back doesn't indicate he is way faster than Killer B. If he was then even with Itachi's warning I don't see how Killer B would have been able to fight him off or pressure him into retreating like he did.

I grant you, Itachi could have Sub Rel reactions based off his showing with Naruto, but Itachi doesn't need to be as fast KCM Naruto's fastest speeds.

> The conclusion is drawn, when literally Bee needed to use an obviously superior transformation, to contain Nagato, who appeared out of nowhere on his back, in a weakened form. It needed more speed, that is the logical and obvious conclusion.

Nagato being faster than base Killer B would still make him "At least MHS+" if that's all it was. Killer B needing more speed doesn't make Nagato equal to his transformed state.
 
@Damage

Naruto knows about Edo Tensei's mechanics and stated to be stronger than before.

While you have the assumption that he was not serious, because he was talking to Itachi.

Occam's razor, a simple foundation.
 
@Damage

Itachi would literally have to cross the entire battlefield, circling or in a straight line, meaning Bee would still be able to see him, even more for the great distance.
It would still be a blitz, there is no ignorance of the context, it is not like there is smoke in the whole battlefield.

Naruto's maximum speed is above or equal to Guy with 7th Gate, which is way above Guy with 1st Gate. Naruto would still be Sub-Rel, even if he held back.
 
@Damage

Because he thought he could convince him.
Because the author simply wanted to show a feat of speed and the comparison of Naruto with Minato and show your determination..
Different factors. Your proof is literally "he was talking, so he wasn't serious".

Here, we literally have an Edo tensei and control of it and then Naruto assuming it is much stronger than before.
A simple case of scaling.
 
> It would still be a blitz, there is no ignorance of the context, it is not like there is smoke in the whole battlefield.

There is directly over the area where Itachi was. And these guys are ninjas after all; it wouldn't be unusual for Itachi to approach stealthily.

> Naruto would still be Sub-Rel, even if he held back.

Naruto could also fight evenly against someone who is at least Massively Hypersonic+ if he held back. And we can attribute Itachi briefly keeping up with Naruto to his superior reaction speed.

> and then Naruto assuming it is much stronger than before.

I'm not sure what you mean.

At this point I don't think either of us are going to convince each other here, so we should probably get DDM involved.
 
@Damage

There are no obstacles for Itachi to stealthily and it is a clean field in more than half of it. And Bee is even further behind Naruto.

.....

Not when he blitzes someone who is MHS+ and is able to keep up with someone higher than Guy w/ 1st Gate.

Ok, no problem.
 
> Not when he blitzes someone who is MHS + and is able to keep up with someone higher than Guy w/ 1st Gate.

SM Kabuto's ratings aren't settled yet, and Itachi appearing behind B is not a blitz.

Here is the definition of speed blitz for the site:

>Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them. Blitzing is different than outpacing, where a character is simply faster than the other. A blitz is more like an all around outclassing in speed.
 
It doesn't change that SM Kabuto is still at the minimum, at Guy 1st gate level or even above.

Yes, it was and the explanation is obvious. Bee was unable to see Itachi moving behind him, in an empty field while it was in front of him, at a great distance. He only reacted because Itachi warned him.
 
@MostPowerfull; how does it make any sense for Killer B to be able to react in time and defend himself from someone a meter behind him, but be incapable of reacting to that person travelling several meters to get behind him in the first place?

It's more likely that Killer B just didn't see Itachi because of the clouds of dust, and Itachi got behind him that way.
 
@Damage

Itachi would still need to move his arms and try to attack him. He warned Bee at the exact moment that was on his back, before preparing any attack.

Again, they were in an empty field, with no obstacle to stealth, dozens of meters away.
 
It was brought to my attention(by God) that Hokage Naruto has a nice feat in the Novel:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11DzsyqhY-LmZGFX4NSVpXASArgUZl3Ft/view

The English translation https://imgur.com/a/7zrLJwz

"'Shit, he follow this thought

-VUUN!

A red beam was fired, followed by a low buzz, where photons displaced molecules.

Not knowing how to operate the bicycle, Naruto instinctively bowed the bicycle alongside his body

The laser beam, without curvature, passed by Naruto's ear and immediately hit the fence of a private house

-BOON

Bamboo reeds hit at such a high temperature expanded and exploded

-It's not possible..."

"Avoiding a photon by his side, Naruto hit his chest painfully toward the tank

Biting the lip, he felt the taste of blood dripping"

Base Hokage Naruto dodges photon laser ? Would this give his speed reaction in Base Relativistic ?

Personally I don't remember major speed feats for Adult Naruto in base form other than Base reacting to Fused Momoshiki. 2 minutes ago
 
Them talking during a fight is in no way proof of them not fully scaling, prove that Naruto and B weren't going full power when they fought Itachi and Nagato.
 
I just looked at the fight and Itachi was fast enough to fight Bee and Naruto at the same time. I completely disagree with not scaling him to sub rel.

I can go and grab a scan of what I'm talking about as well
 
I think Nagato should have Sub-Rel combat and reactions though his leg movements are impaired so he wouldn't scale to sub-Rel for movement or anything

Edo Itachi should be Sub-Rel all around since his body was no longer plagued by illness and he swapped hands with KCM Naruto. Them being able to converse while fighting is not a legit reason not to scale. Itachi was under the effects of Edo Tensei and nothing suggests he was holding himself back. If Naruto was faster than Itachi by any notable degree, he wouldn't even need to engage and could instead just dodge Itachi's attacks or continue leading him around
 
@Jvando,

We do know that the Sharingan can allow fighters to have a lot higher reactions than usual and allow them to keep up with faster opponents. Itachi can be slower than KCM Naruto's speed while having higher reactions.

A brief sparring match between Naruto and Itachi, where Naruto doesn't appear to be struggling at all isn't indicative to me that Itachi has to be equal in speed to KCM Naruto. We already accept that base Guy can fight Obito despite being slower than him because he wasn't able to overwhelm Obito's reactions. Likewise all Naruto did was jump up to meet Itachi in the air, fight briefly and defensively while talking to Itachi about Sasuke.

And we know that even when Naruto is serious, he isn't necessarily using top speed. He was serious when he wanted to try and bypass the Raikage, but we know he could still go faster after that, and he could go even faster again afterwards.

@Wrath;

I think it's fair to say Killer B was going at "full power", and Itachi was able to keep up with him. Likewise base Killer B could react to Itachi's attacks multiple times.

Since Killer B is "At least Massively Hypersonic+", I think it is best to scale Itachi to that for now based on his performance against him, while giving him higher reactions due to possessing the Sharingan and very briefly being able to keep up with Naruto.
 
That Sharingan argument doesn't work when it's been established multiple times that they have to activate the precog as we have seem Sasuke do against One Tailed Naruto, Killer B, and Ay. A brief sparring match is enough to scale him to Naruot since they were evenly matched, Itachi also isnt struggling either so being able to block each others fists is enough to scale them.
 
@Wrath of Itachi; based on just a single occurence, I think it would be more reasonable for Itachi's speed to scale below KCM Naruto and scale to Killer B instead.

I don't remember Sasuke specifically needing to activate the precog; he seemed to do it automatically after his Sharingan matured when he fought 1-Tail Naruto.

And Itachi did have his Sharingan active when he clashed with Naruto.
 
@Wrath of Itachi; right, which is why I think it would be better to scale his combat speed to "At least MHS+" but note that his reaction speed would be higher than that.
 
Damage3245 said:
@Wrath of Itachi; right, which is why I think it would be better to scale his combat speed to "At least MHS+" but note that his reaction speed would be higher than that.
Click to expand...
Why would he be MHS+ when i just provided more evidence of him scaling to Naruto?
 
@Wrath; because Naruto can still be up to Sub Rel in KCM and fight a character who is at least Massively Hypersonic+ with higher reactions. Especially when there is no indication that Naruto is trying hard to fight him.

I'm looking at Itachi's overall performance in the fight instead of just him clashing briefly with Naruto.
 
I've linked evidence up above that Naruto holds back in speed even when he's serious. If he's trying to have a conversation with Itachi about Sasuke, he's not going to be trying to rush Itachi.
 
@Wrath of Itachi; but even if he wasn't holding back, that still doesn't mean Itachi has to scale to him. MS Sasuke is slower than V1 Killer B and the Raikage, but we rate his reactions as being higher for being able to keep up with them and evade their attacks.
 
Now that i think about it, shouldnt Base Killer B scale to Sub-Rel for overcoming Sasukes perception? He couldnt keep up with B at all, he was overwhelmed.
 
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