Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling II

[Damage3245]

@Wrath of Itachi; the only reason Sasuke has Sub Rel perception is for being able to keep up with Killer B's movements when he's in a faster state so that'd be contradictory.

Sasuke, Jugo and Suigetsu were able to fight base Killer B, but base Killer B was fast enough to keep up with each of them. So he's rated as "At least Massively Hypersonic+" for that. It also helps that he has an unusual, unpredictable fighting style.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I mean couldnt that just be the case of Bee scaling higher in the Sub-Rel speed than Sasuke? Also Suigetsu was able to fight against a fully transformed B as well.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Also, Jugo was able to dodge Bees V1 attack, so wouldnt he scale with his partial transformation?

 

[Damage3245]

When I pointed out issues in ratings in an earlier thread, people kept insisting to me that Jugo did not scale to Killer B so that there would be no outliers.

I think we're getting a little off-track here. I'll try and write out a summary of the scaling chain soon to try and clarify this but not all of these characters should be scaling to Sub Rel.

 

[AstralKing7]

Actually I have a problem with the rating for Suigetsu and Jugo which I brought up before.

I definitely believe Itachi is sub rel. saying Naruto is only sub rel at his max speed is hilarious. When not even using max speed he is literally keeping up with people like Third Raikage and the other Jins. One of the jins who is very fast.

Saying that Naruto is only sub rel at max speed is illogical. Basing his rating on how serious he is has never been did before. Even if you want to make and exuce about him being serious or not, he still scales to sub rel feats without being at max.

At the end of the day we can go get scans. The fact that your argument isn't based on any evidence already makes it faulty. We can literally bring all of the scans that will show Naruto at sub rel when not at his "max" speed. Still find it funny that we scale characters only at their max to their feats when they also show the feats casually

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; I've been posting scans too. And I haven't said "Naruto isn't only Sub Rel when fighting at max speed". I'm just saying Itachi briefly keeping up with him in hand to hand combat isn't an impressive feat, and we have other feats that we can use to scale Itachi to.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

It is an impressive feat and one we can scale to. We see Itachi block and attack from both of them at the same time, then dodge an attack from both right after.

 

[Damage3245]

> It is an impressive feat and one we can scale to. We see Itachi block and attack from both of them at the same time, then dodge an attack from both right after.

Okay - and I don't see enough evidence to assume that Naruto is attacking him at Sub Rel speed, or Itachi (with his Sharingan active) reacting to him means that his overall speed has to be at Sub Rel levels.

Itachi can be capable of those feats and still be "At least Massively Hypersonic+".

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

You'd have to prove that Naruto isn't attacking at Sub-Rel speeds, which you still havent done.

 

[Damage3245]

@Wrath of Itachi; I'm fairly confident that's not how burden of proof works. You're the one proposing that Naruto had to be attacking Itachi at Sub Rel speeds.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

There is no evidence that Naruto was taking it easy on Itachi. Also don'[t we always assume that characters are moving at their max speeds for scaling purposes?

 

[Damage3245]

I don't seeing anything about that in the Speed page. That sounds inherently wrong anyway; characters in fiction are not always moving or fighting at their maximum speeds - as I demonstrated up above with Naruto.

 

[AstralKing7]

He is sub rel without maximum speed. You keep bringing up him not fighting at "maximum speed" which is leading people to think you are saying he is only sub rel at that spee. You aren't directly saying it lol

You have no scans that show he doesn't have casual sub rel attack speed also

 

[Rocker1189]

well it is how scaling has always gone in the wiki, Naruto should not be an exception.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I don't seeing anything about that in the Speed page. That sounds inherently wrong anyway; characters in fiction are not always moving or fighting at their maximum speeds - as I demonstrated up above with Naruto.

I can't remember where i saw that, could have been about AP.

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; even if that were the case, Itachi has precog. Keeping up with a character a bit faster than him, for a brief period of time, would not be an impossible feat.

 

[Rocker1189]

@AstralKing7; even if that were the case, Itachi has precog. Keeping up with a character a bit faster than him, for a brief period of time, would not be an impossible feat.

???Then he should get sub-rel speeds...he can stil lmove his body to respond to it, honestly this does not owrk in anyway. precog does not magically increase your speeds.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; I've been saying that we should rate his reaction speed as higher because of it, but his overall speed is not as fast as Naruto.

He is more comparable to base Killer B.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker1189; I've been saying that we should rate his reaction speed as higher because of it, but his overall speed is not as fast as Naruto.
He is more comparable to base Killer B.

Except again he still moves his body in cobat in time with Naruto, he did not just dodge attacks he attacked himself and parried attacks from Naruto, it was not just a couple of dodges, heck his Susanoo magatama kept up with Naruto's rasenshuriken and Gyuki's bijuu bombs.

 

[AstralKing7]

Do u just pick out what things u see in the comments? You have to have speed comparable to the opponent with precog to even be able to dodge them.

Your arguments are falling.

Itachi has attack speed that scales to Naruto as well without precog.

He can instantly put sub rel characters in genjutsu as well when he was alive years prior to when he fought Sasuke.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Naruto has no reason to hold back against Itachi though. He certainly didn't hold back against Kisame when he first activated kcm. Itachi is above kisame, and naruto also knows he's an immortal edo tensei zombie so there's no need to worry about hurting him really. Not to mention Itachi was on autopilot and being controlled by Kabuto, so there's more evidence that their brief exchange was somewhat serious at least. Finally it's not like Naruto is only baseline sub rel, so even if he's slightly holding back he should still be sub rel I believe. Plus Nagato was CLEARLY overwhelming Naruto and B on many occasions during that fight and alsmost killed Naruto by nearly pulling his soul out, and Itachi had to save him(and B iirc) , so I think if Naruto really was so far above them in speed that wouldn't have happened.

 

[Damage3245]

Except again he still moves his body in cobat in time with Naruto, he did not just dodge attacks he attacked himself and parried attacks from Naruto, it was not just a couple of dodges, heck his Susanoo magatama kept up with Naruto's rasenshuriken and Gyuki's bijuu bombs.

Attacking himself doesn't really matter since he was unable to hit Naruto.

As for the Susano'o; that would specifically be Attack Speed for that jutsu instead of Itachi's overall speed. Assuming we even considered the Rasenshuriken or BB to be Sub Rel in speed.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

The same could be said for Naruto and B. They too were unable to land any significant attack, and Itachi managed to dodge everything they threw at him rather easily.

 

[Damage3245]

@UchihaSlayer96; which is easily explained by the fact that Naruto wasn't seriously trying to hurt Itachi since he was talking with him during their brief fight.

And having greater reaction speed / precog does give a distinct advantage so long as the opponents aren't significantly faster than the user.

Hence why my proposal is that Itachi be considered comparable to Killer B, but with higher reaction speed. That compromise would seem to settle everything.

 

[Rocker1189]

@UchihaSlayer96; which is easily explained by the fact that Naruto wasn't seriously trying to hurt Itachi since he was talking with him during their brief fight.
And having greater reaction speed / precog does give a distinct advantage so long as the opponents aren't significantly faster than the user.

Hence why my proposal is that Itachi be considered comparable to Killer B, but with higher reaction speed. That compromise would seem to settle everything.

Nothing states that Naruto was not trying to seriously hurt him and the fight is expanded further in the anime, it is clear there both trying, also KCM Naruto scales far above sub-rel when he is trying. Sub-rel is his casual speed in KCM.

Itachi should just be sub-rel period.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@UchihaSlayer96; which is easily explained by the fact that Naruto wasn't seriously trying to hurt Itachi since he was talking with him during their brief fight.

And having greater reaction speed / precog does give a distinct advantage so long as the opponents aren't significantly faster than the user.

Hence why my proposal is that Itachi be considered comparable to Killer B, but with higher reaction speed. That compromise would seem to settle everything.

That's fair, but it doesn't really make sense for him to hold back in the first place. He knows he's facing an edo tensei zombie, and he knows he's immortal. Besides just talking to him doesn't necessarily mean he's holding back. For instance, Naruto talked with Pain, Obito, and Madara during battle. Does that mean he was holding back against them? And even if he wasn't at his max(which is fair to say I suppose) that doesn't mean he'd be holding back enough to not be sub rel anymore, because again, he is not baseline sub rel.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; the anime is non-canon as far as expansions are concerned.

Even if Naruto was casually Sub Rel, I don't see why the brief sparring between them would be enough to rate Itachi himself as Sub Rel when At least MHS+ works just as well for the same feat, and takes into consideration the rest of Itachi's performance in the fight.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@Rocker1189 I agree. Also I think we're forgetting that Itachi kept up very well with EMS Sasuke and sage Kabuto, and EMS Sasuke also kept up with kcm Naruto

 

[Damage3245]

@UchihaSlayer96; I could possibly accept Itachi as having baseline Sub-Rel combat speed. But I'm still firmly in favor of Nagato only having "At least MHS+" combat speed.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

@Rocker1189; the anime is non-canon as far as expansions are concerned.

Even if Naruto was casually Sub Rel, I don't see why the brief sparring between them would be enough to rate Itachi himself as Sub Rel when At least MHS+ works just as well for the same feat, and takes into consideration the rest of Itachi's performance in the fight.

Could you elaborate on how his performance in the rest of the fight is inconsistent with him being sub rel? because from what I've read he wasn't overwhelmed by Naruto and B at any point. In fact he later on saved them from Nagato and kept up with them just fine. Not to mention later on keeping up with EMS Sasuke and sage kabuto

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker1189; the anime is non-canon as far as expansions are concerned.
Even if Naruto was casually Sub Rel, I don't see why the brief sparring between them would be enough to rate Itachi himself as Sub Rel when At least MHS+ works just as well for the same feat, and takes into consideration the rest of Itachi's performance in the fight.

And it is still supporting canon................

Dude, I swear when it comes to the anime you use it when it helps your point but when it does not you are against it... I dont see how At least MHS+ conveys that someone can fight a sub-rel opponent, the least I would go for is At least MHS+, likely sub-rel.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker1189
I agree. Also I think we're forgetting that Itachi kept up very well with EMS Sasuke and sage Kabuto, and EMS Sasuke also kept up with kcm Naruto

Yeah I said that before.

 

[Damage3245]

> Dude, I swear when it comes to the anime you use it when it helps your point but when it does not you are against it... I dont see how At least MHS+ conveys that someone can fight a sub-rel opponent, the least I would go for is At least MHS+, likely sub-rel.

Anime is only use for clarifying confusing scenes. I don't think the animators / director deciding to expand some scenes is useful for judging scaling based on the manga primarily.

I would be fine for "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely Sub-Rel" for Itachi.

 

[Rocker1189]

Anime is only use for clarifying confusing scenes. I don't think the animators / director deciding to expand some scenes is useful for judging scaling based on the manga primarily.

I would be fine for "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likely Sub-Rel" for Itachi.

I respectfully disagree, Kishi is still approving of what is shown on screen if he does not want Itachi to be comparable he would not allow the scene to be shown.

That was the least I would go for when it comes to Itachi I think UchihaSlayer's point makes sense to rank him at sub-rel but if we have to settle for that I am fine with it.

 

[AstralKing7]

Nagato might have to get bumped up to sub rel anyway if Pervy sage is sub rel in base but I'll explain later on if the time comes

I agree with Itachi being sub rel. In the first place he has too much backing him up.

Nagato definitely scales to sub rel for the reasons I said above yesterday. I can literally get a scan where his attack was to fast for Naruto to react when he was clearly in front of Naruto's eyes and meters away

 

[Damage3245]

> I can literally get a scan where his attack was to fast for Naruto to react when he was clearly in front of Naruto's eyes and meters away

I know what you're referring to; Nagato fired off his jutsu the same moment he became visible because he was hiding in the chameleon's mouth just prior. There's no indication that Naruto was completely incapable of reacting since all we get is a cut to the attack blowing through the forest they were stood on.

 

[AstralKing7]

Damage wth. You jsut said sub rel for Itachi.

Wasn't rocket referring to Nagato with the mhs+ likely sub rel rating.

You literally just said above that you are fine with sub rel baseline Itachi ƒñ¿ƒñ¿ƒñ¿

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Nagato might have to get bumped up to sub rel anyway if Pervy sage is sub rel in base but I'll explain later on if the time comes

I agree with Itachi being sub rel. In the first place he has too much backing him up.

Nagato definitely scales to sub rel for the reasons I said above yesterday. I can literally get a scan where his attack was to fast for Naruto to react when he was clearly in front of Naruto's eyes and meters away

Nagato in particular was clearly overwhelming naruto and B, if he was that much slower than naruto he wouldn't have had any issue dodging and evading nagato's attacks so I agree that nagato should have sub rel combat speed and itachi should be solid sub rel for reasons stated above

 

[Damage3245]

> Wasn't rocket referring to Nagato with the mhs+ likely sub rel rating.

No? He was speaking about Itachi.

> Nagato in particular was clearly overwhelming naruto and B

He wasn't. I've pointed out above that Nagato wasn't overwhelming Naruto or B through pure speed.

 

[AstralKing7]

> I can literally get a scan where his attack was to fast for Naruto to react when he was clearly in front of Naruto's eyes and meters away

I know what you're referring to; Nagato fired off his jutsu the same moment he became visible because he was hiding in the chameleon's mouth just prior. There's no indication that Naruto was completely incapable of reacting since all we get is a cut to the attack blowing through the forest they were stood on.

The chapter itself is still proof that Nagato himself has speed comparable to all three of them. Not only did he fire the attacks before all of them could attack he covered the distance between them as well and was able to use preta path before Lariet could harm him.