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All Base Sannins become "At least MHS+, likely Sub-Relativistic", sounds good.
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Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling II
- Thread starter Jvando
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@MostPowerfull; I think that only Orochimaru for his first key should be rated that.
As Metalija said, even a weakened Orochimaru had a better performance against 4-Tailed Naruto than a healthy Jiraiya did.
As Metalija said, even a weakened Orochimaru had a better performance against 4-Tailed Naruto than a healthy Jiraiya did.
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@Metalija; I think Sage Mode Jiraiya would still be "At least MHS+", scaling to Pain.
As for Tsunade's extra form, we'll have to see who she scales to from the War Arc.
As for Tsunade's extra form, we'll have to see who she scales to from the War Arc.
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@Damage
Even though Orochimaru is somewhat superior, Jiraiya and Tsunade are not far behind him, to the point that he "likely" is 5x faster than them.
Orochimaru lost only his arm movements and was subject to extreme pain, but that was it. Its speed is still the same as that of Prime. Jiraiya probably didn't deal with KN4 Naruto, because the same is his disciple and he didn't want to hurt him, so much so, that the way he did it, was putting that piece of paper that forces Kyuubi to return.
Meaningless. Jiraiya's Sage Mode, minimally, must be scaled to Sub-Rel, scaling from Tsunade's Byakugou, it is clearly not be superior to him in speed, even more than 5x, which is the difference here.
Even though Orochimaru is somewhat superior, Jiraiya and Tsunade are not far behind him, to the point that he "likely" is 5x faster than them.
Orochimaru lost only his arm movements and was subject to extreme pain, but that was it. Its speed is still the same as that of Prime. Jiraiya probably didn't deal with KN4 Naruto, because the same is his disciple and he didn't want to hurt him, so much so, that the way he did it, was putting that piece of paper that forces Kyuubi to return.
Meaningless. Jiraiya's Sage Mode, minimally, must be scaled to Sub-Rel, scaling from Tsunade's Byakugou, it is clearly not be superior to him in speed, even more than 5x, which is the difference here.
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@MostPowerfull; Orochimaru is definitely slower seeing as he couldn't keep up with attacks from a Pre-MS Sasuke.
And Orochimaru being "At least MHS+, likely Sub-Rel" is not saying that he is 5x faster than a character who is "At least MHS+".
Tsunade's Byakugou isn't solidly Sub-Rel yet, but even if it was there is nothing linking it to Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode.
And Orochimaru being "At least MHS+, likely Sub-Rel" is not saying that he is 5x faster than a character who is "At least MHS+".
Tsunade's Byakugou isn't solidly Sub-Rel yet, but even if it was there is nothing linking it to Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode.
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@Damage
Completely different situations. Orochimaru was completely exhausted from facing Naruto, his "body" was starting to reject him. He was in pain and was distracted.
Semantics won't help you here.
The situation would still indicate that Orochimaru is, with some possibility, 5x faster than the other Sannins. So, it would be like M3X says:
Or scale them all to "likely Sub-Rel".
Or scale them all to "likely Higher"
No matter how much you try to distort what happened in the manga, Tsunade is horrible in terms of speed (and literally hasn't feats), like Hokage, he doesn't even train. She is obviously not on the same level as Jiraiya SM, in terms of speed. And as a logical and supportive evidence ... it's IMPOSSIBLE that Jiraiya SM is slower than Guy w/ 1st Gate.
Completely different situations. Orochimaru was completely exhausted from facing Naruto, his "body" was starting to reject him. He was in pain and was distracted.
Semantics won't help you here.
The situation would still indicate that Orochimaru is, with some possibility, 5x faster than the other Sannins. So, it would be like M3X says:
Or scale them all to "likely Sub-Rel".
Or scale them all to "likely Higher"
No matter how much you try to distort what happened in the manga, Tsunade is horrible in terms of speed (and literally hasn't feats), like Hokage, he doesn't even train. She is obviously not on the same level as Jiraiya SM, in terms of speed. And as a logical and supportive evidence ... it's IMPOSSIBLE that Jiraiya SM is slower than Guy w/ 1st Gate.
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@MostPowerfull;
> Or scale them all to "likely Higher"
Well, this could work.
> And as a logical and supportive evidence ... it's IMPOSSIBLE that Jiraiya SM is slower than Guy w/ 1st Gate.
This isn't supportive evidence because it isn't based on anything concrete.
> Or scale them all to "likely Higher"
Well, this could work.
> And as a logical and supportive evidence ... it's IMPOSSIBLE that Jiraiya SM is slower than Guy w/ 1st Gate.
This isn't supportive evidence because it isn't based on anything concrete.
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Except that Guy needs to use the 6th to face and defeat Kisame 30% and so on.
But ok, I'm fine with any of them, as long as it's for ALL Sannins.
But ok, I'm fine with any of them, as long as it's for ALL Sannins.
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@MostPowerfull; he used the 6th Gate to blitz Kisame's clone and defeat him quickly. I wouldn't consider that to mean Kisame can keep up with Guy using the 6th Gate at all.
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> Really the Sannins scale to Sub Rel cause they do
Well, how can I argue in the face of an argument like that.
Well, how can I argue in the face of an argument like that.
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@Metalija; all three of them don't need to have the exact same rating, especially not for their amped forms which have no comparisons to each other.
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Guy was keeping up with the 30% clone while in base, so that definitely doesn't sound right.TataHakai said:
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Kisame, and by extension the Sannin and itachi definitely scale above 1st gate Guy which makes them all solid sub rel. If kisame wasn't strong enough to require gates above the first then why would guy shoot straight to the 6th gate if it's not necessary? Even if you argue that 6th gate guy is faster than kisame(which is likely) , he still definitely scales above the first gate, which again means solid sub-rel.
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Itachi and Nagato(pain) would also scale for being superior to kisame, and it wouldn't be inconsistent because Jiraiya should scale as well
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Honestly we'd have to ignore the story completely not to scale them...
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> he still definitely scales above the first gate, which again means solid sub-rel.
Can't agree with that. Base Guy was able to take Kisame by surprise in Part 1, and base Guy could keep up with 30% Kisame for a while.
He shot up to 6th Gate because it's powerful and fast. And for an out of story reason it's not unreasonable that Kishimoto just wanted to show off the 6th Gate for the first time because he had showed up to the 5th Gate in Part 1 Naruto.
Can't agree with that. Base Guy was able to take Kisame by surprise in Part 1, and base Guy could keep up with 30% Kisame for a while.
He shot up to 6th Gate because it's powerful and fast. And for an out of story reason it's not unreasonable that Kishimoto just wanted to show off the 6th Gate for the first time because he had showed up to the 5th Gate in Part 1 Naruto.
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Well keyword is "by surprise" eh? And ur arguments require way too many assumptions and are kinda convoluted tbhDamage3245 said:
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Like the 8 gates is a technique that damages the user and drains their stamina, guy is very proficient with the technique obviously, but it was never stated that the gates' adverse effects don't apply to him even a little, so it honestly doesn't make sense for him to use a higher gate needlessly. Besides, the fact that he needed to use the gates against kisame at all should allow him(and all characters who would scale from kisame) to scale to solid sub-rel.
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@Damage
It also means that Guy deemed it necessary to stay unqualified above a 5x up to defeat a weak Kisame clone. And again, there are untold pieces... Guy didn't kept up with Kisame, he just had difficulties, as he faced the entire Team Guy, and after arresting them, he completely overpowered Guy and forced him to use the 6th Gate at once .
That is, the obvious is that Kisame is very powerful and quick for Guy to beat him, without being too much above him.
Which, obviously, makes anyone above Kisame 30% to be Sub-Rel, which of course are all High Tiers, including Kisame himself.
So, I think you need to stop with absurd explanations, to justify simple events, just because they give way to any kind of explanation.
It also means that Guy deemed it necessary to stay unqualified above a 5x up to defeat a weak Kisame clone. And again, there are untold pieces... Guy didn't kept up with Kisame, he just had difficulties, as he faced the entire Team Guy, and after arresting them, he completely overpowered Guy and forced him to use the 6th Gate at once .
That is, the obvious is that Kisame is very powerful and quick for Guy to beat him, without being too much above him.
Which, obviously, makes anyone above Kisame 30% to be Sub-Rel, which of course are all High Tiers, including Kisame himself.
So, I think you need to stop with absurd explanations, to justify simple events, just because they give way to any kind of explanation.
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Exactly.Omimi said:
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Yes, and Kisame has never been shown to be comparable to 6th Gate Guy.Omimi said:
That doesn't mean we arbitrarily assign him a speed value above 1st Gate Guy.
Guy choosing to use 6th Gate to stomp Kisame doesn't mean we have to scale Kisame to any Gate lower than that.
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Yes, and Kisame has never been shown to be comparable to 6th Gate Guy.
That doesn't mean we arbitrarily assign him a speed value above 1st Gate Guy.
He doesn't need to be comparable to 6th gate Guy to scale above first gate which is 5 whole levels below it. I mean you'd really have to ignore the context completely to not scale him tbh He stomped a 30% clone btw, and again he could've just used the 5th or 4th, hell even the first would be enough
That doesn't mean we arbitrarily assign him a speed value above 1st Gate Guy.
He doesn't need to be comparable to 6th gate Guy to scale above first gate which is 5 whole levels below it. I mean you'd really have to ignore the context completely to not scale him tbh He stomped a 30% clone btw, and again he could've just used the 5th or 4th, hell even the first would be enough
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I agree.MostPowerfull said:
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> He stomped a 30% clone btw, and again he could've just used the 5th or 4th, hell even the first would be enough
Speed isn't the sole factor at work here. He also used the 6th Gate to blow away the water, destroying the water dragons, and then use the technique that created fire against Kisame. A lesser Gate may not have been able to do that.
By the way, someone should ask Jvando if he can make a new thread.
Speed isn't the sole factor at work here. He also used the 6th Gate to blow away the water, destroying the water dragons, and then use the technique that created fire against Kisame. A lesser Gate may not have been able to do that.
By the way, someone should ask Jvando if he can make a new thread.
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Chakra levels apply to all stats, that's how characters scale to each other. Why would we suddenly make an exception now?
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Not sure what you mean.UchihaSlayer96 said:
Anyway, my proposal as far as the Sannin are concern is the compromise up above, of scaling them to "At least MHS+, likely higher".
Kisame we've already discussed and already scale to "At least MHS+" after the earlier revisions for the Mid Tiers+.
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