Naruto Speed Revisions and Scaling II

[Rocker1189]

thanks

Np.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage can you write a proposal for how his ratings will look like with those new keys?

Okay, I'll start writing it up in the sandbox once I get home.

 

[AstralKing7]

Thanks for the hard work

 

[JohnHendrix212]

What else needs to get addressed before any changes can be made?

 

[Lthesavant]

Everything we need now is 5-B Naruto god tiers again, just waiting for the day.

 

[Rocker1189]

Lol I hope so, either way we are not done yet, still got the Top and God tier to go.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Damage

I think you should close this thread and open a new one, to complete the reviews of Top and God Tiers, since they have a lot less characters to scale.

 

[AstralKing7]

Yeah I agree and I'm fine with a thread to discuss the tiers separately also.

This one was almost full jsut discussing one tier

 

[Damage3245]

Everything we need now is 5-B Naruto god tiers again, just waiting for the day.

VS Battles isn't just about trying to force the highest ratings possible.

@MostPowerfull; I don't think that's up to me. I'll be able to close this thread once Jvando makes a new thread to continue it.

@Wrath; been a bit busier tonight than I liked but I'll post the stuff for Orochimaru soon.

So far my opinion is this:

We scale Orochimaru's first key to Sub-Rel for fighting Hiruzen.

We scale his second key to At least MHS+ for fighting Jiraiya and managing to survive against 4-Tail Naruto.

His 3rd key should be Sub-Rel again for reclaiming his lost power and getting a stronger body via White Zetsu as well as absorbing chakra from Kabuto.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

@Damage Then Base jiraiya should scale to his first key, same with tsunade.

 

[Damage3245]

@Wrath; wouldn't base Jiraiya and Tsunade scale to his second key?

They only fought him in the manga when he was weakened after his fight with Hiruzen.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

@Wrath; wouldn't base Jiraiya and Tsunade scale to his second key?

They only fought him in the manga when he was weakened after his fight with Hiruzen.

Jiraiya fought Orochimaru when he got kicked out for doing those experiments. During their fight in part 1, Jiraiya was poisoned by tsunade so he couldn't mold his chakra and tsunade had her blood phobia. Although she did get over it, she was destroying Orochimaru when they fought.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Why would Orochimaru be 5x faster than Jiraiya and Tsunade? It makes no sense, they should be comparable to each other.

 

[Damage3245]

@Wrath, yeah, but that was in the past.

@M3X; who said anything about him being five times faster than them?

There are other characters we can scale Jiraiya to as well. Such as Itachi, Pain, Konan, etc.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The sub-relativistic tier comes from the 5x multiplier, if Orochimaru scales to sub rel while Jiraiya is only MHS+, then Orochimaru scales to 5 times Jiraiya's speed

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

@Wrath, yeah, but that was in the past.

@M3X; who said anything about him being five times faster than them?

There are other characters we can scale Jiraiya to as well. Such as Itachi, Pain, Konan, etc.

What does it being in the past have to do with it?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Whatever Prime Orochimaru scales, Jiraiya and Tsunade should scale. If you don't agree, you are saying he is 5x faster than them ƒñÀÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

 

[Damage3245]

What does it being in the past have to do with it?

Because we'd have to be assuming that Orochimaru was just as fast as he was back then.

@M3X; that's only if we're scaling Jiraiya to be as fast as Kakashi's feat.

If we're scaling him to Pain, then he would be above it while still being in the MHS+ tier. The gap wouldn't be as big then.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Why would we assume he would be any slower?

 

[M3X_2.0]

And you can't tell us a number for Jiraiya's current speed, he scales above Kakashi's feat, yes, butnwe don't know how much. I would like to know a reason to why scale Orochimaru as Sub-Relativistic and Jiraiya as MHS+

 

[Damage3245]

@M3X; well, to be honest I'm not sure about Orochimaru scaling to Sub-Rel at all except as a possibility.

Hashirama and Tobirama when summoned originally by Orochimaru were much weaker than they were when alive.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Hashirama and Tobirama when summoned originally by Orochimaru were much weaker than they were when alive.

How is this relevant?

 

[Damage3245]

How is this relevant?

Right now Hiruzen is recieving his scaling from those two; even though there's no evidence that they're anywhere near as fast as when they're alive.

And scaling him to Onoki is a bit sketchy IMO since we don't know how comparable they were exactly at the time that Hiruzen died. The nations had been at peace for several years.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

I guess the validity of that statement depends on who made it.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Who made the statement?

 

[AstralKing7]

Nations at peace!? They weren't at peace at all. Did you guys forget Shisui vs Ao???? The villages were already fighting at the time Hiruzen was Hokage.

But if we don't wanna use Ononimi then let's not forget Kabuto literally stole Oro's Sage power which granted him his tier. Guess what? Oro took everything back from Kabuto.

Let's not be picky here at all. Oro still ends up being sub rel no way around that and Hiruzen does as well.

Also Onoki at his old age is definitely weaker than he was when he was in his prime.

Bruh a matter of fact they weren't at any peaceful times at all. The hidden Stone and the Hidden Leaf were literally at war the same time Hirzuen was Kage and that's backed up by the fact that Minato didn't become Hokage until after the incident with Obito and Kakashi earning his title Kakashi of the Sharingan.

They were all at war at the same time when they were Kage. These aren't peaceful times at all

A matter of fact I'm definitely supporting Sub Rel Oro because of the fact that he killed one of the Kazekage

 

[Damage3245]

> But if we don't wanna use Ononimi then let's not forget Kabuto literally stole Oro's Sage power which granted him his tier.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Kabuto didn't steal any Sage Mode from Orochimaru.

He went to the place where the snakes dwelt and learnt Sage Mode there himself. Orochimaru didn't have a compatible body for Sage Mode at the time.

> A matter of fact I'm definitely supporting Sub Rel Oro because of the fact that he killed one of the Kazekage

I don't think we have any details on how that fight went down.

 

[Kidkinsey]

I think the statement was something like "The greatest Hokage", not the strongest one.

I think it was strongest, kabuto told orochimaru tbere is nk reaosn to be ashamed as hiruzen is still the strongest out of tbe 5 kage

 

[TataHakai]

How is this relevant?

And scaling him to Onoki is a bit sketchy IMO since we don't know how comparable they were exactly at the time that Hiruzen died. The nations had been at peace for several years.

 

[Omimi]

Jiraiya fought oro many time during his life so he definitely scale

 

[AstralKing7]

And scaling him to Onoki is a bit sketchy IMO since we don't know how comparable they were exactly at the time that Hiruzen died. The nations had been at peace for several years.



Well that sums this up because Kabuto is insanely intelligent

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

So is it safe to scale Hiruzen to Onoki?

 

[Damage3245]

Yes, he had that reputation but I was saying we don't know if Hiruzen was still that strong at the time that he fought Orochimaru. And strongest does not necessarily mean fastest seeing as the Raikage would be faster than him anyway.

The power creep in Naruto makes judging feats from Part 1 using Part 2's later speed scaling a bit unreliable I think. We wouldn't consider Part 1 Naruto to have Sub-Relativistic reactions for keeping up in the fight against Shukaku for example.

Instead of trying to powerscale Hiruzen to Onoki, I think that we should be judging Jiraiya and Orochimaru on the actual fights they've had which I believe would put them as "At least Massively Hypersonic+".

I don't think Hiruzen should be rated as Sub-Rel except only as a possibility.

 

[Rocker1189]

I think Hiruzen should be given a likely and same with Orochimaru and the sannin.

 

[Damage3245]

@Rocker1189; I think that it would be good enough for Jiraiya and Tsunade to be rated as "At least Massively Hypersonic+, likley higher".

And Hiruzen and Orochimaru's prime state to be "At least Massively Hypersonic+, possibly/likely Sub-Relativistic".

 

[M3X_2.0]

No, if Orochimaru is gonna scaleto possibly sub rel, Jiraiya and Tsunade should scale as well. Or don't scale anyone

 

[AstralKing7]

Pretty sure Oro scales to the Kazekage as well.

Also in Naruto it's not weird for strongest to imply fastest.

Pretty sure Minato was considered the strongest as well because of his speed.

In Naruto when it comes to strongest statements the characters' speed are also being referenced

 

[Damage3245]

@AstralKing7; Minato was explicitly referred to as the fastest, not the strongest IIRC.

And Orochimaru's fight with the kazekage is off-screen, we have no idea exactly what happened in the manga except that Orochimaru betrayed him and the Kazekage ended up dying.

Also, I think that Gaara's justifications for being Sub-Rel need re-examining.

 

[Metalija]

I think that part 1 Orochimaru being sub-rel is fine and Base Jiraiya and Base Tsunade shouldn't scale because Base Orochimaru >>>> Base Jiraiya and Tsunade. Yes Jiraiya and Orochimaru fought in the past but that was more than a decade before the start of the series and Orochimaru got significantly stronger since then because he is constantly training and developing new jutsus while Jiraiya just writes **** books. Also Base Jiraiya got stomped by 4 tailed Naruto while Orochimaru with no arms and with sickness was fighting evenly with 4 tailed Naruto. So Base Orochimaru >>>> Base Jiraiya and Tsunade.

 

[Rocker1189]

tbh I agree with metal.